On MSG and Genetically Modified plants

rileysowner

What is a DW?

Darling Wife

M3CH4N1C

There is also a difference between seed selection and genetic modification. It seems as though you're trying to blur those lines. There are also reports that we have not studied the effects of all considered GMO's to even know whether or not they are EVIL. There are stone inscriptions in the southern State of Georgia called the Georgia Guidestones in which the first inscription is this 1.Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.

That was taken off Wikipedia. Now if our "humanity" is 7 billion right now as we speak. How are these right wing extremist groups going to de-populate "humanity" to 500 million. The answer is with every dirty trick in the book. Including fooling young gifted scientists into thinking they're doing good, when in reality they have no idea what's really going on. It's scary if they figure out how to get these drugs to diffuse past the BBB (blood brain barrier), whether it's with chemistry or nanobotics.

ninerbuff

This is spurred by another topic in which these were mentioned. I thought I'd share my opinion. My opinion was formed by science, but this is another one of those areas (like aspartame) where there's data backing up both opinions, so you'll find stuff out there saying MSG = bad and GM = bad.

MSG is monosodium glutamate. Glutamate is an amino acid and one of the most important neurotransmitters in your brain. By neurotransmitter, I mean it's a chemical signal that's released by one neuron to communicate with another neuron.

People who object to MSG say (among other things) that it damages the brain. In mice and rats, this is true. Even in primates, this is true. If you feed these animals a LARGE quantity of MSG, they develop lesions in their brain.

But the evidence is weak in humans. It's highly questionable whether dietary MSG even crosses the blood-brain barrier, let alone damages the brain when/if it does.

What is the blood-brain barrier? The rest of our bodies are bathed in blood and interstitial fluid that is comprised of whatever was in the blood (minus the blood cells). But the brain- blood enters the skull through blood vessels, but does not come into direct contact with the brain. Instead, it is filtered through a network of tightly-fitted-together cells and this filter removes pathogens and unwanted material. The blood brain barrier makes the life of neuro-pharmacologists (like me) a bit difficult, because we can come up with the greatest drug in the world for curing <insert disease of choice here> and still utterly fail because it doesn't get into the brain.

So if MSG doesn't cross the blood brain barrier, it doesn't cause damage to the brain.

What about all the people who get a bad reaction to MSG? It's probably do to MSG acting else where in the body. It's not likely due to effects in the brain, though there are people who would argue this point.

What about these genetically modified plants?

I'm not that invested in whether someone eats or doesn't eat genetically modified foods. But I am invested in getting 'correct information' to anyone who wants it. Genetic modification is NOT my expertise. But I can tell you with absolute certainty that some of the crazy things people believe are simply not true.

Example: I have heard people tell me that they don't eat genetically modified plants because they don't want the plants to affect their DNA. This is silly. The genes in the plant will not jump across an entire kingdom into your DNA. It just isn't going to happen. We are not plants. Our DNA is not gonna mesh together happily. Also, the viruses (if there were even any viruses) used to make the genetic modification in the original plant are long gone. They don't hang around. You don't have to worry about them.

The simple truth is, from a biological standpoint, your body doesn't know whether a plant has been genetically modified or not. You body sees a composite of proteins, fats, carbohydrates, sugars, and fibers. It seems the break-down products of those items: amino acids, fatty acids, single-molecule sugars, and... well it can't break down the fiber, so it still sees fiber.

I don't object to people avoiding genetically modified plants if they wish. I just hope you're avoiding them for other good reasons and not because you're scared of them.

THIS so much! Asians have had MSG in their foods for EONS and are some of the healthiest in the world and live longer than many other ethnic groups.

And genetically modified grains could have saved so many more people in Africa had it not be turned away.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

ninerbuff

There are no studies on the long term effects of GMOs yet. All the studies conducted showed no detriment after 90 days of consumption. However, most things do their damage after cumulative exposure. Once they are in the food supply, people will be eating them longer then the 90 day period.

We just don't know about their safety long term. I don't want to be anyone's guinea pig so I try to avoid them. I wish they were labeled.

Food had been "chemically" laden for decades. I doubt that GMO's would have any effect on consumption.

A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

daffodilsoup

Besides, MSG is delicious.

Lift_hard_eat_big

I love msg, it makes bad food taste good

RonSwanson66

Let's not forget nitrates. Cured meat is the devil, but nitrates are found in much higher concentrations in vegetables.

Hot Dogs/Cured meat 10ppm

arugula 4,677 ppm

basil 2,292 ppm

butterhead lettuce 2,026 ppm

beets 1,279 ppm

celery 1,103 ppm

spinach 1,066 ppm

pumpkin 874 ppm

LabRat529

Let's not forget nitrates. Cured meat is the devil, but nitrates are found in much higher concentrations in vegetables.

Hot Dogs/Cured meat 10ppm

arugula 4,677 ppm

basil 2,292 ppm

butterhead lettuce 2,026 ppm

beets 1,279 ppm

celery 1,103 ppm

spinach 1,066 ppm

pumpkin 874 ppm

I knew there was a reason I didn't like arugula Damn nitrates.

M3CH4N1C

I knew there was a reason I didn't like arugula Damn nitrates.

LOL.

jetscreaminagain

Ok smart people (said with respect, not irony ) help me out the.

In the past little over a year, I've been struggling with the onset of periodic "vertiginous migraines ". No headache pain, just that the world spins, which is as close to awful as I can describe. There's an aura and nausea too. This seems like a brain thing, but it could also be the semicircular canals. However, my balance organs are excellent, a conclusion made after a day of awful tests. I was told to avoid a large random list of food but it includes msg and nitrates.

If msg has no effect on the brain, and if migraines in general and mine in particular involve the brain, why that counsel to avoid?

I've been as thorough an observer of my own symptoms as I can be and I find that there's a susceptibility on a pretty regular 28 day cyle. (Weirdly after, not before ). I lost all sight of my susceptibility last Thursday when my favorite Mexican restaurant opened a new location and I ate a burrito the size of my head. Pretty sure there was msg aplenty in it. But Friday I missed work because the world was spinning and I needed to throw up.

I avoidish msg because of this and have reduced my number of episodes. I don't think it is always guaranteed to affect me, but I sure think sometimes it does. So, with your understanding of these things, can you help me make sense of what happens to me?

tigersword

Not everything that affects the brain is caused by something in the brain. Also, some people can be allergic to MSG, just like some people can be allergic to peanuts, or strawberries.

helenium

OP, I love you a little bit.

jetscreaminagain

Not everything that affects the brain is caused by something in the brain. Also, some people can be allergic to MSG, just like some people can be allergic to peanuts, or strawberries.

That's a somewhat unsatisfying answer. If its causing these symptoms I truly don't give a flip while I'm on the floor puking and willing the world to stop spinning that there even is a blood brain barrier, much less if it has been crossed

Can we agree that to the point that msg causes or helps to cause it, it isn't *good* for me? And that me trying to avoid msg doesn't make me a crackpot worthy of ridicule?

_GlaDOS_

Ok, I'd like to just have this topic for later when I have time for a response. But, I do want to say that although I don't quite understand what the OP means by people being "afraid GMOs will affect their DNA", but certainly the idea of horizontal gene transfer is well-documented (although I can't say I've got the expertise to fully understand it). Perhaps not as well-documented with GMOs, but there is some research out there. However, GMO research itself is lacking, especially in terms of independent research, but when I have some time I'll post some of the research articles I have found.

helenium

Not everything that affects the brain is caused by something in the brain. Also, some people can be allergic to MSG, just like some people can be allergic to peanuts, or strawberries.

That's a somewhat unsatisfying answer. If its causing these symptoms I truly don't give a flip while I'm on the floor puking and willing the world to stop spinning that there even is a blood brain barrier, much less if it has been crossed

Can we agree that to the point that msg causes or helps to cause it, it isn't *good* for me? And that me trying to avoid msg doesn't make me a crackpot worthy of ridicule?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not saying you're right - all I'm going to say is, scientifically, no conclusions could be drawn about your plight because there isn't enough data (specifically lack of data from multiple humans and lack of data from controlled double-blinded experiments)...

Main thing here is not to do something you're not happy with. Given that MSG is certainly not an essential nutrient, and it will (now) if anything exacerbate your migraines (even if entirely due to the placebo effect), you're certainly not harming yourself or others by avoiding it - so there's no reason to not avoid it. If you were talking about vaccination against a disease which can be life-threatening to you or vulnerable people, I'd have a different opinion...

_GlaDOS_

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not saying you're right - all I'm going to say is, scientifically, no conclusions could be drawn about your plight because there isn't enough data (specifically lack of data from multiple humans and lack of data from controlled double-blinded experiments)...

It is highly unlikely that in nutrition research, we will get to a point where we can actually conduct reliable double-blind, randomized, controlled experiments in humans. It is also unlikely that we will be able to conduct reliable research on long-term health effects of specific foods, nutrients, or food additives. There are just too many other variables. So we just have to go with what we have, make sure the source is reliable and perhaps see if the same research or a more comprehensive study has been done, and decide on what we eat and how we will form food policy and regulations from there. You can't simply say that because some research studies were done on animals, they aren't good enough. That's what we have, especially in nutrition.

And I find it interesting that, especially in the United States, we would consume something anyway even when we don't know anything about it and we claim that it "hasn't been proven to be bad yet". And yet, with medication/drugs, there is no way we would approve something for an indication until it was proven safe, with rigorous research over several years and several studies. With food, it's "approve until someone complains or people get sick", and by then big business has enough money and power that it doesn't matter anymore. Forgive me if that sounds like fear-mongering, but it's essentially true. I have asked people if GM foods were labeled if they would still consume them. A lot of people say, "Yes, because I don't know anything about GMOs." It's sad to me that we would put things into our bodies without knowing what it is. Maybe that just comes from my knowledge of the regulatory practices in this country and how terrible they are, I don't know.

LabRat529

Ok, I'd like to just have this topic for later when I have time for a response. But, I do want to say that although I don't quite understand what the OP means by people being "afraid GMOs will affect their DNA", but certainly the idea of horizontal gene transfer is well-documented (although I can't say I've got the expertise to fully understand it). Perhaps not as well-documented with GMOs, but there is some research out there. However, GMO research itself is lacking, especially in terms of independent research, but when I have some time I'll post some of the research articles I have found.

I meant exactly what you're referring to... people fear a "horizontal gene transfer" from the genome of a genetically modified food into their own genome and it doesn't work that way. It just doesn't happen.

Is there such a thing as horizontal gene transfer? Yes. To the best of my knowledge, it's facilitated by viruses. But it doesn't happen with the food we eat.

LabRat529

Not everything that affects the brain is caused by something in the brain. Also, some people can be allergic to MSG, just like some people can be allergic to peanuts, or strawberries.

That's a somewhat unsatisfying answer. If its causing these symptoms I truly don't give a flip while I'm on the floor puking and willing the world to stop spinning that there even is a blood brain barrier, much less if it has been crossed

Can we agree that to the point that msg causes or helps to cause it, it isn't *good* for me? And that me trying to avoid msg doesn't make me a crackpot worthy of ridicule?

Absolutely you should avoid MSG if you feel it causes harm. You are not the only one who reacts negatively to it, and I've never suggested that someone was a 'crackpot worthy of ridicule' because they avoid it. I was simply imparting some information to the effect that, based on science, I think it very unlikely that MSG enters the brain.

The brain doesn't actually feel pain. Headaches don't come because the brain is in pain. Headaches are most often due to pain in the muscles and nerves OUTSIDE the brain (but in the head and neck surrounding the skull). So these horrible headaches you are experiencing are probably not due to MSG in your brain, but instead due to something else (possibly MSG) acting somewhere else in your body.

The reason I brought the whole MSG thing up is that there are people who assume that MSG is bad for everyone simply because some people react negatively to it. There's no evidence to support that claim. MSG is bad for people who react to it. Just like peanut butter is bad for people who react to it.

LabRat529

And I find it interesting that, especially in the United States, we would consume something anyway even when we don't know anything about it and we claim that it "hasn't been proven to be bad yet". And yet, with medication/drugs, there is no way we would approve something for an indication until it was proven safe, with rigorous research over several years and several studies. With food, it's "approve until someone complains or people get sick", and by then big business has enough money and power that it doesn't matter anymore. Forgive me if that sounds like fear-mongering, but it's essentially true. I have asked people if GM foods were labeled if they would still consume them. A lot of people say, "Yes, because I don't know anything about GMOs." It's sad to me that we would put things into our bodies without knowing what it is. Maybe that just comes from my knowledge of the regulatory practices in this country and how terrible they are, I don't know.

There's a big difference, in my opinion, between food-stuff and a pharmacologically active chemical. A genetically modified ear of corn looks exactly like a non-modified ear of corn once it's passed through our digestive system. That corn is broken down to its component parts- micromolecules such as sugars, amino-acids, fatty acids, and so on. The gene that carries the modification? It will be destroyed in our digestive track.

Pharmacological agents, on the other hand, are specifically designed to either survive the digestive tract intact (if it's administered orally), or those agents are administered by injection or inhalation or some other route. The active ingredient makes it into our body... and it remains active in our body until we metabolize it into an inactive substance. Hence pharmacological agents have a much higher risk of being harmful because they're designed to by-pass our protective barriers.

One possible exception to all this is if the corn was genetically engineered to produce it's own anti-biotic, anti-fungal, or anti-virus or something like that. THEN I might be concerned because that anti-biotic or whatever might be a molecular structure that can survive our GI tract and enter our system.

mehaugen

This is spurred by another topic in which these were mentioned. I thought I'd share my opinion. My opinion was formed by science, but this is another one of those areas (like aspartame) where there's data backing up both opinions, so you'll find stuff out there saying MSG = bad and GM = bad.

MSG is monosodium glutamate. Glutamate is an amino acid and one of the most important neurotransmitters in your brain. By neurotransmitter, I mean it's a chemical signal that's released by one neuron to communicate with another neuron.

People who object to MSG say (among other things) that it damages the brain. In mice and rats, this is true. Even in primates, this is true. If you feed these animals a LARGE quantity of MSG, they develop lesions in their brain.

But the evidence is weak in humans. It's highly questionable whether dietary MSG even crosses the blood-brain barrier, let alone damages the brain when/if it does.

What is the blood-brain barrier? The rest of our bodies are bathed in blood and interstitial fluid that is comprised of whatever was in the blood (minus the blood cells). But the brain- blood enters the skull through blood vessels, but does not come into direct contact with the brain. Instead, it is filtered through a network of tightly-fitted-together cells and this filter removes pathogens and unwanted material. The blood brain barrier makes the life of neuro-pharmacologists (like me) a bit difficult, because we can come up with the greatest drug in the world for curing <insert disease of choice here> and still utterly fail because it doesn't get into the brain.

So if MSG doesn't cross the blood brain barrier, it doesn't cause damage to the brain.

What about all the people who get a bad reaction to MSG? It's probably do to MSG acting else where in the body. It's not likely due to effects in the brain, though there are people who would argue this point.

What about these genetically modified plants?

I'm not that invested in whether someone eats or doesn't eat genetically modified foods. But I am invested in getting 'correct information' to anyone who wants it. Genetic modification is NOT my expertise. But I can tell you with absolute certainty that some of the crazy things people believe are simply not true.

Example: I have heard people tell me that they don't eat genetically modified plants because they don't want the plants to affect their DNA. This is silly. The genes in the plant will not jump across an entire kingdom into your DNA. It just isn't going to happen. We are not plants. Our DNA is not gonna mesh together happily. Also, the viruses (if there were even any viruses) used to make the genetic modification in the original plant are long gone. They don't hang around. You don't have to worry about them.

The simple truth is, from a biological standpoint, your body doesn't know whether a plant has been genetically modified or not. You body sees a composite of proteins, fats, carbohydrates, sugars, and fibers. It seems the break-down products of those items: amino acids, fatty acids, single-molecule sugars, and... well it can't break down the fiber, so it still sees fiber.

I don't object to people avoiding genetically modified plants if they wish. I just hope you're avoiding them for other good reasons and not because you're scared of them.

I went to grad school for biochemistry, and studied GMO's extensively in classes. You are correct that a GMO will not change your DNA. However, GMOs are used to express a variety of proteins usually, and many times genetically modifying an organism can produce UNINTENDED protein expression consequences. Some of these proteins are used medically for therapy. Some can be harmful to your body! So I would avoid GMOs because proteins expressed by them have not been shown to be harmless, and in some cases GM vegetables have been recalled because they were producing toxic proteins.