On MSG and Genetically Modified plants

M3CH4N1C

Do you know the difference between "quote mining" and "evidence"?

I believe this was your loaded question? Am I correct.

RonSwanson66

Do you know the difference between "quote mining" and "evidence"?

I believe this was your loaded question? Am I correct.

Still avoiding.

LabRat529

Can we not derail this thread?

M3CH4N1C, I'm getting a little pissed. You insult people by calling them sheeple. You insinuate that scientists are corrupt, white-washing the whole group as liars, including ME. You come in here with your theories, insult my intelligence and the intelligence of others on this thread when they disagree with you, and I frankly don't get it. You've been on my friends list since I started here and you've been awesome and supportive. I really don't mind that you've got a different-from-me world view, because I value diversity and I've appreciated your input. You've always been kind and respectful on my profile. So... why are you being an *kitten* now?

I LOVE discussions. I've really enjoyed the comments others have made in this thread even if I don't agree with them. Yes, I've gotten a little frustrated sometimes (and I'm sure they've gotten frustrated with me), but I still really value every meaningful comment made here.

But I don't like the insults. They are unnecessary and they ruin a perfectly good thread. Please knock it off.

I personally would like to return to this thread when I have time to do a bit more research on GMOs. I'd like to look for ideas of where to start. I'd like to read the stuff people have posted here. I might even watch those documentaries even though I'm inherently distrustful of documentaries. But I can't do that if we turn this thread into a war-zone and get it locked.

_________________

In response to your concern about the formula- I get the feeling that GMOs are everywhere, so I'm not surprised to find them in infant formula. I guess that's a +1 for the benefits of nursing.

M3CH4N1C

Can we not derail this thread?

M3CH4N1C, I'm getting a little pissed. You insult people by calling them sheeple. You insinuate that scientists are corrupt, white-washing the whole group as liars, including ME. You come in here with your theories, insult my intelligence and the intelligence of others on this thread when they disagree with you, and I frankly don't get it. You've been on my friends list since I started here and you've been awesome and supportive. I really don't mind that you've got a different-from-me world view, because I value diversity and I've appreciated your input. You've always been kind and respectful on my profile. So... why are you being an *kitten* now?

I LOVE discussions. I've really enjoyed the comments others have made in this thread even if I don't agree with them. Yes, I've gotten a little frustrated sometimes (and I'm sure they've gotten frustrated with me), but I still really value every meaningful comment made here.

But I don't like the insults. They are unnecessary and they ruin a perfectly good thread. Please knock it off.

I personally would like to return to this thread when I have time to do a bit more research on GMOs. I'd like to look for ideas of where to start. I'd like to read the stuff people have posted here. I might even watch those documentaries even though I'm inherently distrustful of documentaries. But I can't do that if we turn this thread into a war-zone and get it locked.

_________________

In response to your concern about the formula- I get the feeling that GMOs are everywhere, so I'm not surprised to find them in infant formula. I guess that's a +1 for the benefits of nursing.

Then if you were a friend you would realize he started throwing stones and insulting me first. Tell him, in all fairness, to stop insulting me and I will do the same.

M3CH4N1C

Do you know the difference between "quote mining" and "evidence"?

I believe this was your loaded question? Am I correct.

Still avoiding.

Re-state your question then. Now you are avoiding

RonSwanson66

You've dodged several:

How did the government interfere with their employees health care? have you read GAO reports on the unsustainable business model the USPS has? Not just recent ones but ones for years that have warned about their model

Re: your laundry list of foods containing a "known toxin"

Are you going to mention which toxin, or should we just guess?

and finally

Do you know the difference between quote mining and evidence?

tigersword

Can we not derail this thread?

M3CH4N1C, I'm getting a little pissed. You insult people by calling them sheeple. You insinuate that scientists are corrupt, white-washing the whole group as liars, including ME. You come in here with your theories, insult my intelligence and the intelligence of others on this thread when they disagree with you, and I frankly don't get it. You've been on my friends list since I started here and you've been awesome and supportive. I really don't mind that you've got a different-from-me world view, because I value diversity and I've appreciated your input. You've always been kind and respectful on my profile. So... why are you being an *kitten* now?

I LOVE discussions. I've really enjoyed the comments others have made in this thread even if I don't agree with them. Yes, I've gotten a little frustrated sometimes (and I'm sure they've gotten frustrated with me), but I still really value every meaningful comment made here.

But I don't like the insults. They are unnecessary and they ruin a perfectly good thread. Please knock it off.

I personally would like to return to this thread when I have time to do a bit more research on GMOs. I'd like to look for ideas of where to start. I'd like to read the stuff people have posted here. I might even watch those documentaries even though I'm inherently distrustful of documentaries. But I can't do that if we turn this thread into a war-zone and get it locked.

_________________

In response to your concern about the formula- I get the feeling that GMOs are everywhere, so I'm not surprised to find them in infant formula. I guess that's a +1 for the benefits of nursing.

Then if you were a friend you would realize he started throwing stones and insulting me first. Tell him, in all fairness, to stop insulting me and I will do the same.

You called him a sheep several times, several pages before he called you a troll. And he called you a troll because you've been acting like a troll. You're being extremely, intentionally inflammatory, insulting broad ranges of people, with things that have nothing really to do with the topic at hand, which is the very definition of Internet troll.

amilynnM

Can we not derail this thread?

M3CH4N1C, I'm getting a little pissed. You insult people by calling them sheeple. You insinuate that scientists are corrupt, white-washing the whole group as liars, including ME. You come in here with your theories, insult my intelligence and the intelligence of others on this thread when they disagree with you, and I frankly don't get it. You've been on my friends list since I started here and you've been awesome and supportive. I really don't mind that you've got a different-from-me world view, because I value diversity and I've appreciated your input. You've always been kind and respectful on my profile. So... why are you being an *kitten* now?

I LOVE discussions. I've really enjoyed the comments others have made in this thread even if I don't agree with them. Yes, I've gotten a little frustrated sometimes (and I'm sure they've gotten frustrated with me), but I still really value every meaningful comment made here.

But I don't like the insults. They are unnecessary and they ruin a perfectly good thread. Please knock it off.

I personally would like to return to this thread when I have time to do a bit more research on GMOs. I'd like to look for ideas of where to start. I'd like to read the stuff people have posted here. I might even watch those documentaries even though I'm inherently distrustful of documentaries. But I can't do that if we turn this thread into a war-zone and get it locked.

:drinker: Well said!

_GlaDOS_

I agree – would be nice to stay on topic and not use insults as a way to debate. It doesn’t get us anywhere.

To break the tension, my funny and clever GMO shirt:



Proceed with GMO and MSG discussion! :flowerforyou:

LabRat529

I agree – would be nice to stay on topic and not use insults as a way to debate. It doesn’t get us anywhere.

To break the tension, my funny and clever GMO shirt:



Proceed with GMO and MSG discussion! :flowerforyou:

Cute I approve. And you look good in it. You actually have a waist. I'm jealous

_GlaDOS_

I agree – would be nice to stay on topic and not use insults as a way to debate. It doesn’t get us anywhere.

To break the tension, my funny and clever GMO shirt:



Proceed with GMO and MSG discussion! :flowerforyou:

Cute I approve. And you look good in it. You actually have a waist. I'm jealous

Thanks! And, I am really just good at getting the angle of the camera right. The waist is an illusion! HAHA just kidding. But, thank you.

M3CH4N1C

Can we not derail this thread?

M3CH4N1C, I'm getting a little pissed. You insult people by calling them sheeple. You insinuate that scientists are corrupt, white-washing the whole group as liars, including ME. You come in here with your theories, insult my intelligence and the intelligence of others on this thread when they disagree with you, and I frankly don't get it. You've been on my friends list since I started here and you've been awesome and supportive. I really don't mind that you've got a different-from-me world view, because I value diversity and I've appreciated your input. You've always been kind and respectful on my profile. So... why are you being an *kitten* now?

I LOVE discussions. I've really enjoyed the comments others have made in this thread even if I don't agree with them. Yes, I've gotten a little frustrated sometimes (and I'm sure they've gotten frustrated with me), but I still really value every meaningful comment made here.

But I don't like the insults. They are unnecessary and they ruin a perfectly good thread. Please knock it off.

I personally would like to return to this thread when I have time to do a bit more research on GMOs. I'd like to look for ideas of where to start. I'd like to read the stuff people have posted here. I might even watch those documentaries even though I'm inherently distrustful of documentaries. But I can't do that if we turn this thread into a war-zone and get it locked.

_________________

In response to your concern about the formula- I get the feeling that GMOs are everywhere, so I'm not surprised to find them in infant formula. I guess that's a +1 for the benefits of nursing.

Then if you were a friend you would realize he started throwing stones and insulting me first. Tell him, in all fairness, to stop insulting me and I will do the same.

You called him a sheep several times, several pages before he called you a troll. And he called you a troll because you've been acting like a troll. You're being extremely, intentionally inflammatory, insulting broad ranges of people, with things that have nothing really to do with the topic at hand, which is the very definition of Internet troll.

No tiger. You are wrong. He made reference to a paranoia picture with tin foil hat then later said GTFO. Those were intentionally inflammatory and insulting, the exact same thing you accuse me of. And to top it all off, you are saying that corruption has nothing to GMO's. Get real dude. He insulted me twice. I insulted him twice. And just because you don't like what I have brought to the topic, doesn't make it trolling. In fact you are guilty of sheeping. LOL. You've been sheeping this thread not knowing anything about what's going on and replying with incoherence. Quit sheeping this thread.

M3CH4N1C

You've dodged several:

How did the government interfere with their employees health care? have you read GAO reports on the unsustainable business model the USPS has? Not just recent ones but ones for years that have warned about their model

Re: your laundry list of foods containing a "known toxin"

Are you going to mention which toxin, or should we just guess?

and finally

Do you know the difference between quote mining and evidence?

USPS Question-

Aside from declining mail volumes and income, the postal service says its fiscal problems also stem from having overpaid billions of dollars to the Federal Employee Retirement System, as well as health and retirement benefits for its employees. Donahoe said today that the requirement to prepay employee retirement health benefits has left the agency "effectively bankrupt."

Known toxin question-

Didn't put that bit of info on the thread so you could use it to tangent the topic. But I have done it so I should expect that, tangent that is. Directly relative to the topic. Put it on here to focus on GMO portion of the info which is being put into baby food. And with enough info so you could research my source. As far as the toxin don't know. Would have to research. But will if I have to.

And finally the difference between quote mining and evidence. Quote mining is quoting out of context to facilitate an agenda. Evidence is evidence.

Now answer my question. Do you know the difference between critical thinking and unrealistic optimism?

RonSwanson66

Indeed I do. Critical thinking involves being skeptical of any and all claims that lack evidence to support them. Not to derail this thread any further, but this is why I discount conspiracy theorists. They place too much unrealistic optimismin the intelligence and cooperation of the human race.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

(PS. If you wish to discuss this topic further, start another thread in the appropriate forum I'll be glad to engage you there.)

M3CH4N1C

Indeed I do. Critical thinking involves being skeptical of any and all claims that lack evidence to support them. Not to derail this thread any further, but this is why I discount conspiracy theorists. They place too much unrealistic optimismin the intelligence and cooperation of the human race.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

(PS. If you wish to discuss this topic further, start another thread in the appropriate forum I'll be glad to engage you there.)

But this has everything to do with GMO's. If you want to about GMO's then you have to be fair and include the wealth of evidence involving corruption, greed, and false reasoning involving marketing. Maybe not MSG. MSG used responsibly is my opinion is just as necessary as other natural occurring nutrients and compounds. I mean there is a ton of evidence that too much mineral and vitamin intake is linked to kidney stones, particularly sodium and calcium. But nobody demonizes them. Anything in excess can cause health problems. As far as focusing on GMO's and separating what I've brought to the forefront is false reasoning. I'm not the only person on the thread either, who has delivered a good list of cons, ranging from production, labeling, research, and effects. I mean what exactly are we allowed to talk about in reference with GMO's. Seed selection. Gene therapy. What? What will please Ron as an appropriate, because it sounds like this thread is about GMO's.

vs1023

There are no studies on the long term effects of GMOs yet. All the studies conducted showed no detriment after 90 days of consumption. However, most things do their damage after cumulative exposure. Once they are in the food supply, people will be eating them longer then the 90 day period.

We just don't know about their safety long term. I don't want to be anyone's guinea pig so I try to avoid them. I wish they were labeled.

Same for me. The are chemicals everywhere that I can't avoid, so if I can control how much chemical food or gmo food goes in my body then I will. I avoid HFCS which is a gmo, amongst others.

Technically, high fructose corn syrup is not a genetically modified food. You can make it from plain-old corn sugar. It's encouraged to form with enzymes... so it's 'man made' in a way (sorta kinda- it's not chemically synthesized, so it's the exploitation of a natural process) but it is not genetically modified.

That's neither here nor there though Just a technicality and not that important in your decision to avoid high fructose corn syrup.

Incidentally, I sometimes avoid HFCS for superstitious reasons (as in that decision is not based on any science, just on my own biases/prejudices), but alas, I love coke classic too much to ever commit to a long-term HFCS deprivation.

Still don't trust it as I don't trust most things I see on tv, in media, etc. I definitely research everything and come to my own conclusion.

I avoid sugar in general though and if I have any it is in small amounts.

tigersword

You've dodged several:

How did the government interfere with their employees health care? have you read GAO reports on the unsustainable business model the USPS has? Not just recent ones but ones for years that have warned about their model

Re: your laundry list of foods containing a "known toxin"

Are you going to mention which toxin, or should we just guess?

and finally

Do you know the difference between quote mining and evidence?

USPS Question-

Aside from declining mail volumes and income, the postal service says its fiscal problems also stem from having overpaid billions of dollars to the Federal Employee Retirement System, as well as health and retirement benefits for its employees. Donahoe said today that the requirement to prepay employee retirement health benefits has left the agency "effectively bankrupt."

Known toxin question-

Didn't put that bit of info on the thread so you could use it to tangent the topic. But I have done it so I should expect that, tangent that is. Directly relative to the topic. Put it on here to focus on GMO portion of the info which is being put into baby food. And with enough info so you could research my source. As far as the toxin don't know. Would have to research. But will if I have to.

And finally the difference between quote mining and evidence. Quote mining is quoting out of context to facilitate an agenda. Evidence is evidence.

Now answer my question. Do you know the difference between critical thinking and unrealistic optimism?

Perfect response, you state as a fact that something is manufactured with a known toxin, now you admit you don't know what toxin it is. So where do you get the information from?

As for me being a "sheep." All I'm doing is asking is for you to prove your claims, thus far, you haven't. Not sure how asking you for more information makes me a sheep. I'm not the one parroting information without supporting it. If you hadn't noticed, I haven't offered an actual opinion on GMO's. My participation on this thread was related to the MSG part of the topic. I personally don't have enough first hand knowledge of GMO's to offer an opinion either way, so I don't. I'm here for information.

M3CH4N1C

But that's not all you are doing. Now you are minimizing. You've insulted me as well. You know I've gotten responses from other people on this thread saying that the info I've provided was a good resource, so I think you are focusing on me without looking into the sources I've put out there

tigersword

What am I minimizing? You made a claim that a product was manufactured with a known toxin, and then admitted that you don't know what the toxin is. If you're going to throw out the "poison" card, you need to be able to show evidence, otherwise it's just fear mongering.

sunkisses

mmmmmmmmmmmmm MSG

Silverkittycat

OP -

What about all the people who get a bad reaction to MSG? It's probably do to MSG acting else where in the body. It's not likely due to effects in the brain, though there are people who would argue this point.

Any ideas on where that MSG is acting?
As for the Asians not reacting to it, I've read that it was due to the neuroprotective effects of all the coenzyme Q10 in their diets. Do you think there is anything to that?

DannyMussels

mmmmmmmmmmmmm MSG

This.

and I'll add never trust what someone without a real profile pic of themselves says.

Boom.

Enjoy your arguin goals of 2011.

LabRat529

OP -

What about all the people who get a bad reaction to MSG? It's probably do to MSG acting else where in the body. It's not likely due to effects in the brain, though there are people who would argue this point.

Any ideas on where that MSG is acting?
As for the Asians not reacting to it, I've read that it was due to the neuroprotective effects of all the coenzyme Q10 in their diets. Do you think there is anything to that?

I don't know It's on my to-do-list in terms of literature searches. I have a couple ideas based on stuff I already read, but I'd want to do more digging. I probably won't get to that until later- it can take a lot of time to find the right info, as I'm sure you know!

One idea that I'll toss out there now comes from a paper I read about dietary MSG establishing waves of depolarization in the brain which triggers migraines in certain susceptible people. The question of course is, how? If MSG isn't crossing the blood-brain barrier, how is it inducing the waves? And my speculation is that it's triggering the release of some kind of hormone/neurochemical that can get through the barrier. Maybe these 'susceptible people' express a protein that others don't have? Or express a different amount of some transmitter or other? Something like that.

I'm pretty sure that MSG isn't directly entering the brain, because if it did, it would cause brain lesions- and those aren't something you recover from. I know glutamate causes lesions because i used to use it to kill neurons when I was studying stroke.

BUT this is all speculation, so please don't take it as anything more than me guessing.

Edit to add: I don't know about Q10. I'd have to read up on it.

sunkisses

mmmmmmmmmmmmm MSG

This.

and I'll add never trust what someone without a real profile pic of themselves says.

Boom.

Enjoy your arguin goals of 2011.

For me, MSG is like salt on steroids. Makes food taste so freakin' mouth-wateringly good.

irridia

As a long time sufferer of MSG effects and other chem exposure I wanted to weigh in on this. My hope is that mechanic and tiger haven't killed the thread, and if they have more to add I would ask them to take their argument private.

So I come from a background of College entry level A&P and Mircobiology. I've also read alot. I'm not in a position currently to post any resources and most of this is observational.

First thing I want to say is that Life finds a way. What ever you try to do to inhibit it it will find a way to get around that obsticle. Notable quote: Adapt or die!

Humans in general have painted our species in a corner by trying to manipulate nature. Bacteria become resistant to antibiotics, insects become resistant to pesticide and weeds resistant to herbacide. Both herbacides and pesticides are oil soluable. That means they stay locked in fat tissue when they enter animal systems. i.e. they do not dissapate, at least that is my understanding. The longer one is exposed to a fat soluable toxin, the more accumulates. This cannot be good.
It's akin to Armor development: plate armor kept getting thicker to repell bigger/more forceful weapons until it got so heavy, wearing it was worse than pointless it was detrimental to your health. lol if you can't move you can't fight.

In the case of antibiotics now we are faced with not only nosocomial infections, but antibacterial TB (which probably started as a nos0comial infection) and what boils down to "face eating" staph infections that kill within hours of contracting them. Theoretically these will eventually evolve to non-lethal forms because killing your host is just bad business (biologically speaking) . What causes these resistant strains? Doctors caving to patient demand for antibiotics when they have a cold (virus caused) and patients not finishing their meds or taking them as perscribed. That is essentially the same as low dose antibotics. Also I find it hard to believe that antifungals, pesticides, and herbicides that have been added to the arsenal of GMO plants "features" (keeping in mind I'm talking about what they are engineered to produce) are not broad spectrum. That means they kill everything, even that which is beneficial. This is why we have to take probiotics after a round of antibiotics. Anyway back to the low dose results, well that includes increased instances salmonella and e.coli contaminated food along with antibacterial resistant strains of these and others. That is all bad enough, the fact that this is set up to enter the food chain at its most basic level. Since these will be ingested by animals and then eaten by us, the toxicity can only increase.

The fact that the toxins that are being deployed by plant mechanisms that are found in other species does NOT make them safe by any stretch. Ask anybody who has ingested Hawthorne, Holly, Rhododendron, Poinsettia or Foxglove (digitalis) to name a few.

I was actually confused originally by the objection to GMO until I found out about RoundUpReady Wheat. Make a strain of wheat that is resistant so we can pour more herbacide to keep the unwanted plants out! I would like to see Round UP banned, personally. The idea that it will go into the water table or through the fieldsinto streams to poison fish is enough to say no, but you add on the lawsuits agains people who should be suing Monsanto for contaminating their heirloom vegetables is waaay over the top.

I would like to think that their seedless varieties would adapt to developing seeds if they out breed normal plantsbut Idon't know if it is possible since that feature would have to originate from the RNA.

I need to go home now, I will continue later with protein allels and allergens and how that relates to GMO next

lobbylobster

"I would like to think that their seedless varieties would adapt to developing seeds if they out breed normal plantsbut Idon't know if it is possible since that feature would have to originate from the RNA."

This alone tells me you need to do a bit more research...

LabRat529

@ Irridia,

You've made some interesting comments and maybe I'll give you a more detailed response later. I'm in the middle of a pretty big project and only come to MFP when I need a mental break... but I haven't forgotten about this thread or my promise to do more research and I probably will resurrect it again when I have time.

A couple quick responses though to some of the things you've said-

First... perhaps this is my hopeless optimism again, but I don't think of humans as having 'painted themselves into a corner'. Humans are tool makers. We always have been. It's our inventions and our intelligence that keeps us on top of the food chain (opposable thumbs help too). Have we encountered man made problems? Yup. But I'm pretty confident we'll find solutions to those problems (and create new problems in the future). It's what we do. It's what we're good at.

I'm pretty much pro-technology. I don't think the 'kill everything' approach is the best approach (example: round up), but I don't feel the need to condemn humanity because we like to manipulate nature.

But that's just opinion, not science.

Regarding the science- plants can adapt, yes. And the GMO plants probably can and probably will. I use transgenetic Alzheimer's mice, and we see genetic drift over the course of several generations (damn those mice... the start getting smarter when we want them to be dumb!!!!). So of course it will happen in plants and I don't think anyone expects it not to.

It's easy to talk about antibiotic resistant tuberculosis as if this is some evil that man has created, but what people forget is: we used to die from plain-old-normal tuberculosis. It killed a lot of people. We stopped it, and now we get the occasional resistant strain and people use that as an example that man shouldn't mess around with nature. I really don't understand that

Don't forget that mankind is living a lot longer than they used to live because of science. Yes, we have created problems for ourselves and we will create more... but we're still living twice as long as our ancestors did. If I were a paleo-woman, I'd be old and decrepit by now. Instead, I'm in my prime and have another 25-30 years to go before I even retire.

Thanks for your input and thoughts. I appreciate them

LabRat529

Also, I am rambling and preaching because I'm tired. Sorry