Teacher Criticisms...(rant)

castadiva

Okay, this board is a mere shaddow of the former one. What topic can I start talking about to get things moving?

1. Homeschooling?

2. The Teacher Unions?

3. What to do with kids who don't want to be in school?

4. Ability grouping?

5. Gifted Education?

Surely we can liven things up a bit.

Yes, let's talk about Ability Grouping and Gifted Education, and the fact that, in many cases, children of all ranges of ability are failed by the ideological insistence that no-one is treated or taught any 'differently', to the bewilderment of those who are behind the 'norm', and the boredom and frustration of those whose inherent intellectual gifts make 'normal' insultingly simple. Can anyone explain the logic behind that to me?

As for Gifted Education, where is the investment in this? I have no problem with Special Needs education, and indeed see clearly the need for it, but why is this prioritised so heavily over approriate education for those whose equally special needs are at the other end of the intellectual spectrum, which are often ignored completely?!

VegesaurusRex

Okay, this board is a mere shaddow of the former one. What topic can I start talking about to get things moving?

1. Homeschooling?

2. The Teacher Unions?

3. What to do with kids who don't want to be in school?

4. Ability grouping?

5. Gifted Education?

Surely we can liven things up a bit.

Yes, let's talk about Ability Grouping and Gifted Education, and the fact that, in many cases, children of all ranges of ability are failed by the ideological insistence that no-one is treated or taught any 'differently', to the bewilderment of those who are behind the 'norm', and the boredom and frustration of those whose inherent intellectual gifts make 'normal' insultingly simple. Can anyone explain the logic behind that to me?

As for Gifted Education, where is the investment in this? I have no problem with Special Needs education, and indeed see clearly the need for it, but why is this prioritised so heavily over approriate education for those whose equally special needs are at the other end of the intellectual spectrum, which are often ignored completely?!

I can explain it to you. If you put kids of differing abilities in one classroom, you absolutely need smaller classrooms, and hence more teachers. This has been the strategy of the Teacher Unions since the late '60s, and it has worked. The total myth that kids learn better in a smaller class has be the Teacher Union Mantra for a half a century. And they are right - unless you do ability grouping.

With ability grouping you can have huge classes, fewer teachers, and more effective teaching. When I went to high school we had tracking. People were neatly sorted into ability groups, In my group, Accelerated College, we had kids at the same ability level, and in some cases we got credit for one and a half courses where the "normal" course in that subject of course only got 1 course credit. The kids in my group were accepted at Yale, Penn, Carnegie Tech, Smith, Mt Holyoke, and other really good schools. Tracking worked just fine. The kids in the lowest track learned skills like plumbing, and were spared having to suffer through English literature and Shakespeare. The kids in the upper track, on the other hand, loved the academic courses. The teacher needed one lesson plan for the class, and there were no wisea@@ jerks making stupid comments.

Ability grouping worked well, and is used by just about every country on the planet except us. That is because of the Teacher Unions, the most evil group of people in the educational establishment. They want more jobs, more vacation, more money, tenuire and more benefits. That is what teaching is about for them. They couldn't give a damn about the results.

annemckee

I am a teacher in Scotland. Last year the school I had been teaching in for 22 years was closed. I held a promoted post in my previous school and had in fact been acting head teacher in a job share (doing my own principal teacher post as well and teaching pupils) for six months until closure. I was redeployed to another school where I am now an "ordinary" teacher. I did not choose this job. Neither did I choose the drop in income which will come into play when my 3 year conservation of salary is at an end. Neither did I choose the pay freeze we are currently in tthe middle of, nor the changes to pension conditions being discussed at government level, nor the reduction in per capita allowance for buying resources needed for me to do my job. What I did choose was a job which is worthwhile and rewarding and which I am attempting - in straitened circumstances - to keep that way. I love my job but at the moment I feel my job does not love me.

botography

I am a retired teacher who started out doing something I dearly loved and was allowed to teach in a creative way based on the needs of the students in MY class. I could reach them because I started where THEY were and tried to bring them "up and beyond."

At the end of my career I ended up in a straight jacket teaching TO THE TEST and teaching and not teaching whatever I was commanded to do or not do. We are trying to put everyone in the same box...treat them the same way in education. We ought to be promoting WHAT A STUDENT CAN DO, not what they CANNOT. Sorry Advanced Algebra is not for everyone. And my students who dared to be electricians, or plumbers instead of engineers are doing quite well around now.



And society changed .... and respect for me and all those like me hit an all time low. When I could no longer do what I thought was right for my students I got out... It was 40 years of downhill, one year worst than the other kinda GOT OUT.

I am up early and caught this thread and responding seemed the right thing to do. What I was paid somehow never made a difference to me although it does indicate what we as a society value. In my book teachers are not paid enough because they truly hold the key to the future by what they do and do not do.

castadiva

Anne, I applaud your dedication and admire your commitment to an inevitably challenging job. I empathise to an extent with the concerns of teachers, particularly those of long-standing, but I have to say that I can't sympathise with what amounts to demands by a particular group for special treatment that ignores the realities of the current economic climate. In every sector, public or private, people are facing the same issues. The difference seems to be that if you work within the private sector, and are unhappy with the conditions or changes to your job/remuneration package, the onus is on you to find an alternative job, or even to leave the sector entirely and retrain at your own cost for another. Within the public sector, it seems unreasonable to me that this should be reversed so that the onus is on the employer to meet employee's demands. It's not realistic.

Like any company's, the public purse is limited, and making changes is inevitable when times are hard. I have never understood why there seems to be a perception within the public sector that jobs and remuneration should be immune to change, simply because the government of the day is the employer. Governments, and economies, change. In choosing to work in the public sector, one ties ones' own fortunes to those of the country. Right at the moment, those fortunes are significantly decreased.

Please don't take this as a personal attack - I feel the same way about nurses etc! - I understand the pain, but the lack of logic that often seems to occur in these debates disturbs me.

castadiva

We are trying to put everyone in the same box...treat them the same way in education. We ought to be promoting WHAT A STUDENT CAN DO, not what they CANNOT. Sorry Advanced Algebra is not for everyone. And my students who dared to be electricians, or plumbers instead of engineers are doing quite well around now.

THIS!!!! It quite clearly does not, and cannot, work to treat everyone exactly the same within education. All brains are NOT created the same, and those differences should be recognised, celebrated in fact. I sailed through Advanced Algebra, but heaven help me if my fuses all blow or my plumbing breaks down! I don't understand why so many ideologues seem so committed to pretending that these differences don't exist. Being the best you, as an individual, can be should be the aim, surely, not putting everyone, suited to it or not, through the same, inevitably mediocre, system?

TheRoadDog

I'm going to choose my words carefully, because there are people in here that I respect and admire. The teachers I had in my life made a huge difference. I saw and dealt with educators in my daughters lives. They made a difference. Some good; some bad.

The National Average Wage in 2011 for teachers ranged from $40,112 (Grade School) to $43,593 (HS). I don't know what a Private College Professor makes.

The National Average Wage over all for 2011 was $41,673.

I don't see that there is the wage disparity that you speak of. As far as Vacations and Sick Leave is concerned, most people get 2 weeks paid vacation to start. By 20 years in, they might get 4 to 5 weeks. Not Summer vacations, Spring Breaks and 2 Weeks for Christmas.

I have been working 41 years. I don't have a union to go to bat for me. I don't have tenure. I don't have a bunch of talking heads in Washington touting how necessary my position is in our society. I mess up today, they fire me tomorrow and hire a college grad at half the price.

I realize how important a good teacher is. I know what an impact my own teachers have had on my life. Thank you, Mr. Condon. Gracias, Senora Bustamante.

If you feel underappreciated and underpaid, look around at the rest of us. We don't have public support. We're struggling too.

chanstriste13

Okay, looks like this board is dead. I guess the majority of teachers here do not want to discuss important contemporary issues, but would rather talk about how awful parents are and how hard their jobs are.

smirk. this is silly, but congrats on getting a good enough insult out there to kick the board up again.

You cannot expect those who are barely making it themselves to protect your pampered life style.

this was pretty funny too. thanks for the chuckles. pampered? right.

There are no resources to waste on kids who do not want to be in school. If they are not interested kick them out.

you have yet to suggest where to place these hundreds of thousands of students. again, this is not an educational problem. this is a societal problem, and you will have to go to the root of this, which is most likely the homelife/situation/parents of the child.

The public schools are dysfunctional and have been for a long time. The new mantra will be "Change or die." The only people in the system that actually do any good are those who fight the system, the John Taylor Gottos, and the Jaime Escalentes.

grotto and escalentes: irrelevant.

When the system fails or disappoints, it is not the parents who are at fault, it is the teachers. Yes, I do believe that the parents are the single biggest influence in their kids lives, and have primary responsibility for their kids' education. Some parents exercise that responsibility by trusting the system. These are the saddest cases. And when the system fails, the teachers blame the parents for trusting them, the teachers.

this is absurd. talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it too...!

chanstriste13

I'm going to choose my words carefully, because there are people in here that I respect and admire. The teachers I had in my life made a huge difference. I saw and dealt with educators in my daughters lives. They made a difference. Some good; some bad.

The National Average Wage in 2011 for teachers ranged from $40,112 (Grade School) to $43,593 (HS). I don't know what a Private College Professor makes.

The National Average Wage over all for 2011 was $41,673.

I don't see that there is the wage disparity that you speak of. As far as Vacations and Sick Leave is concerned, most people get 2 weeks paid vacation to start. By 20 years in, they might get 4 to 5 weeks. Not Summer vacations, Spring Breaks and 2 Weeks for Christmas.

I have been working 41 years. I don't have a union to go to bat for me. I don't have tenure. I don't have a bunch of talking heads in Washington touting how necessary my position is in our society. I mess up today, they fire me tomorrow and hire a college grad at half the price.

I realize how important a good teacher is. I know what an impact my own teachers have had on my life. Thank you, Mr. Condon. Gracias, Senora Bustamante.

If you feel underappreciated and underpaid, look around at the rest of us. We don't have public support. We're struggling too.

don't worry about hurting my feelings - i'm tough!

the pay thing really wasn't the point of all this - people keep bringing it up. we're in one of the lowest paid states, and i think we get a pretty sweet deal as far as pay goes.

but you generally don't catch conversations at the grocery store starting with, 'those damn mechanics,' or 'those damn lawyers', or 'those damn car salesmen'. but a lot of people are just hating on teachers like crazy, and i don't feel that it is deserved. people can hate unions. they can hate no child left behind. they can hate the directives that come down from washington. but placing all of that negativity on actual *teachers* is just misguided and sad.

not all teachers are wonderful, sure. but we're not all satan by a long shot!

iuangina

Veg - I hate to tell you but everyone learns better in smaller environments. Yeah, it's possible to get the basic information that you need, but to get an in-depth study of any subject - smaller is better. That's why colleges have first year classes (100+) (general classes that are basic) that are huge and the more advanced classes are smaller seminars (no more than 30). That's why some people option for a small liberal art colleges over the big state university. You are insane if you think that size doesn't matter. Also, even within ability grouping you still have varying levels of kids. No child is in exactly the same place as another. I also think you need to get a clue about class sizes because our classes are huge. I have classes of 30 kindergartners (that's too many 5 year olds for any one person to handle). Education has been described to me as the only factory that is expected to produce the same results with a different set of parts for every model. Class size is not something that is made up by teacher's unions to keep more teachers employed. That's very jaded. Who in the educational system hurt you so much?

That being said, I have a serious problem with tracking as it was done in the past. There are children who get placed on a non-college track because of test scores and racial/economic bias. Well, tests are not always an accurate assessment of what a child knows. I remember being placed in a non-college track in high school and my parents had to fight it. I have issues with standardized tests and I also had a guidance counselor who believed that minorities didn't belong in college (BTW, I went to college graduated with honors and went to law school so eff that piece of sh*& that said I wouldn't be able to - he's still at my high school). I'm thankful that my parents were there to fight for me, but a lot kids at my school didn't have parents who were involved. Ability grouping has been used to keep minorities (both racial and economic) out of certain professions - such as law, medicine, etc. A lot of times it is used as a way to keep the rich rich and the poor poor. I know that not everyone has this experience but historically that's how it's been used.

I completely agree that education will not be fixed until the way we fund education is fixed. Poor districts stay poor and rich districts stay rich because property values determine how much money a school gets, not the acheivement levels.

I also would like to know what teachers are pampered? I've never met any.

TheRoadDog

don't worry about hurting my feelings - i'm tough!

the pay thing really wasn't the point of all this - people keep bringing it up. we're in one of the lowest paid states, and i think we get a pretty sweet deal as far as pay goes.

but you generally don't catch conversations at the grocery store starting with, 'those damn mechanics,' or 'those damn lawyers', or 'those damn car salesmen'. but a lot of people are just hating on teachers like crazy, and i don't feel that it is deserved. people can hate unions. they can hate no child left behind. they can hate the directives that come down from washington. but placing all of that negativity on actual *teachers* is just misguided and sad.

not all teachers are wonderful, sure. but we're not all satan by a long shot!

I know you're tough.

Just like many professions, Teachers choose their profession because of a passion for what they do. I am sorry that some are feeling underappreciated.

On the flip side of that, however, I believe it is up to the Education system to give our children a good foundation. Teach them to read, write, ciper and socialize. The basics. At least K-12.

Beyond that, I believe it is up to the community and the families to take care of our special needs students. When I say community, I don't mean mandating programs and taxing the middle class, I mean help out your neighbor, your friends, your community. That's where we are falling short.

If a person's kid can't pay attention in class, is disruptive or unresponsive, don't punish my child and take his/her time away to babysit Little Johnny.

Yep, all my girls are through K-12. One left in college. 8 more years, at least. I can tune most of the chatter out now. In college, no one wants my input anyways. As long as my check clears.

Sweet_Potato

My sister taught middle school for a year after getting her Master's degree in education, and it sounded like an awful job. The school was overcrowded, her classroom was in a basement, the kids could barely read or write, and many of them had severe behavioural problems. Not a single one spoke English at home so there were communication problems with the kids and especially with their parents-- my sister speaks Spanish pretty well but only knows a smattering of Portugeuse, Hindi, Manderin, etc. She had to buy most of her own supplies and spent a lot of her free time grading assignments and preparing for classes. Then the state cut education funding and she was out of a job. These days she teaches preschoolers for less than minimum wage with very long hours.

I honestly do not understand why people are so against paying teaches. It is a very hard job and you need at least a Bachelor's degree (usually a Masters) in a specialized field to even be considered for a teaching position.

78islegirl

I love how you just are able to tell the truth. Some people do not want to hear the truth, nor do they even care. I am a English Education major right now. I see your passion for children and education. My hat is off to you! Our world needs more people like you!

castadiva

I honestly do not understand why people are so against paying teaches. It is a very hard job and you need at least a Bachelor's degree (usually a Masters) in a specialized field to even be considered for a teaching position.

I don't think anyone's against paying teachers, just against pay awards and protection that bear no relation to the real world!

iuangina

I think all government employees have the same protections teachers do (minus the vacation time, but that's not part of a benefit and really doesn't cost the taxpayers anything actually it probably saves them money because they don't have pay to ac buildings, transportation, etc). If you want the protections and benefits of teachers, become a government employee.

KYMUSE

I think everyone involved in education gets stereotyped (teachers AND parents)...how often do you hear people say "parents just don't care anymore".."they want the system to raise their kids". Sorry, but I'm killing myself trying to raise a well mannered, educated kid who cares not just about himself but the world around him. We aren't all bad either:)

As the mother of a child with learning disabilities-do I think my child's needs are met? No. But I don't blame the teachers, I blame the system around it. He's in 5th grade but functions about 1.5-2 years behind that. Give him 3-4th grade level work and he's flawless. But he and his teachers are constantly measured by how well he meets a standard that everyone knows he doesn't have the ability to meet, which is unfair to both of them. He does a great job with his modifications, is an honor roll A-B student...but the child works 7 hours at school and sometimes 2 hours at night.

I know what the teachers go through because I volunteer in his school. I walk into those classrooms and do everything I can to help lighten the load and yes-I do go to them when think something has been handled unfairly, I spend an equal amount of time telling them what they are doing right. I hope you teachers know that to the parents and kids who do take the time to notice, you make all the difference in the world.

Sweet_Potato

I think all government employees have the same protections teachers do (minus the vacation time, but that's not part of a benefit and really doesn't cost the taxpayers anything actually it probably saves them money because they don't have pay to ac buildings, transportation, etc). If you want the protections and benefits of teachers, become a government employee.

What protections are you talking about? I say this as a former Federal employee who was laid off-- the stereotype that Government employees having great benfeits and secure jobs is truly a myth. I've been working for a contractor for the past six years and the benefits are the same (better in some areas) and the job is no less secure.

Sweet_Potato

I honestly do not understand why people are so against paying teaches. It is a very hard job and you need at least a Bachelor's degree (usually a Masters) in a specialized field to even be considered for a teaching position.

I don't think anyone's against paying teachers, just against pay awards and protection that bear no relation to the real world!

Well, I don't know how it works in England. Th teachers here don't get any of that.

iuangina

How long had you been an employee for the federal government? What agency did you for? I know when I worked for the government it would take an act of congress to get rid of someone with more than 3 years of experience.

Sweet_Potato

How long had you been an employee for the federal government? What agency did you for? I know when I worked for the government it would take an act of congress to get rid of someone with more than 3 years of experience.

USPTO, a little over a year. If you didn't meet your quotas you were out, no questions asked. And the quotas were pretty insane, especially if you had a bad supervisor who didn't sign off your work in a timely manner.

iuangina

How long had you been an employee for the federal government? What agency did you for? I know when I worked for the government it would take an act of congress to get rid of someone with more than 3 years of experience.

USPTO, a little over a year. If you didn't meet your quotas you were out, no questions asked. And the quotas were pretty insane, especially if you had a bad supervisor who didn't sign off your work in a timely manner.

I don't know how that agency works with their systems, but I would imagine that someone with more experience than you would be very hard to remove for performance unless it is a RIF (and that's different - teachers have those too BTW). It's kind of the same thing with teachers.

Sweet_Potato

How long had you been an employee for the federal government? What agency did you for? I know when I worked for the government it would take an act of congress to get rid of someone with more than 3 years of experience.

USPTO, a little over a year. If you didn't meet your quotas you were out, no questions asked. And the quotas were pretty insane, especially if you had a bad supervisor who didn't sign off your work in a timely manner.

I don't know how that agency works with their systems, but I would imagine that someone with more experience than you would be very hard to remove for performance unless it is a RIF (and that's different - teachers have those too BTW). It's kind of the same thing with teachers.

True, I knew a couple guys at higher GS levels who were not formally laid off but demoted, which was usually enough to make them resign.

castadiva

How long had you been an employee for the federal government? What agency did you for? I know when I worked for the government it would take an act of congress to get rid of someone with more than 3 years of experience.

USPTO, a little over a year. If you didn't meet your quotas you were out, no questions asked. And the quotas were pretty insane, especially if you had a bad supervisor who didn't sign off your work in a timely manner.

I don't know how that agency works with their systems, but I would imagine that someone with more experience than you would be very hard to remove for performance unless it is a RIF (and that's different - teachers have those too BTW). It's kind of the same thing with teachers.

That right there is what people object to. Outwith government employ - and this is pretty much a global issue - if there's an issue with performance and it remains unaddressed, that employee is let go. This sort of protection of sub-standard performers is what really gets my goat, and that of a lot of other people. I cannot see any reason why a government employee should have so much more protection, financially and in terms of job security, than someone in the private sector. If you're incompetent to do your job adequately, you should be dismissed, and a competent person hired to replace you. End of story. As a tax payer, I rather object to paying the salaries of incompetent workers, simply because their jobs are so protected it would take an Act of Congress (or similar!), to remove them. If dismissal is on other grounds, then sure, you should be protected as private-sector workers are - by legislation designed for that purpose - but a situation in which an incompetent, inadequate employee cannot be dismissed is laughable, and makes a lot of people angry. By the way, this doesn't just apply to teachers - I find the level of protection offered to all government employees in most parts of the developed world utterly absurd.

iuangina

How long had you been an employee for the federal government? What agency did you for? I know when I worked for the government it would take an act of congress to get rid of someone with more than 3 years of experience.

USPTO, a little over a year. If you didn't meet your quotas you were out, no questions asked. And the quotas were pretty insane, especially if you had a bad supervisor who didn't sign off your work in a timely manner.

I don't know how that agency works with their systems, but I would imagine that someone with more experience than you would be very hard to remove for performance unless it is a RIF (and that's different - teachers have those too BTW). It's kind of the same thing with teachers.

That right there is what people object to. Outwith government employ - and this is pretty much a global issue - if there's an issue with performance and it remains unaddressed, that employee is let go. This sort of protection of sub-standard performers is what really gets my goat, and that of a lot of other people. I cannot see any reason why a government employee should have so much more protection, financially and in terms of job security, than someone in the private sector. If you're incompetent to do your job adequately, you should be dismissed, and a competent person hired to replace you. End of story. As a tax payer, I rather object to paying the salaries of incompetent workers, simply because their jobs are so protected it would take an Act of Congress (or similar!), to remove them. If dismissal is on other grounds, then sure, you should be protected as private-sector workers are - by legislation designed for that purpose - but a situation in which an incompetent, inadequate employee cannot be dismissed is laughable, and makes a lot of people angry. By the way, this doesn't just apply to teachers - I find the level of protection offered to all government employees in most parts of the developed world utterly absurd.

As absurd as it may be, it is part of the 5th amendment to the US constitution. Most government employees have a property right in their jobs and cannot be deprived of that right without due process. Many times that process includes numerous warnings, suspensions, and reprimands before a firing can actually take place. They also are entitled to a hearing to contest the decision. It's not fair, but it's the way the courts have interpreted the due process clause. So, a lot of employers don't take the time to even bother with it unless it's really bad. This results in the so-called "pass the trash" process. Where bad employees are transferred to other offices to "improve", but rarely their work improve. If you don't like it, it's going to take a lot more than b%ing about it to change it. I don't know what the solution is, but teachers and government employees didn't invent the system. Maybe we should blame the courts.

chanstriste13

On the flip side of that, however, I believe it is up to the Education system to give our children a good foundation. Teach them to read, write, ciper and socialize. The basics. At least K-12.

amen! i've posted this on here before, but our county has cut grammar out of the curriculum until 9th grade, and has taken long division and factoring trees out entirely since students can just use a calculator. i can guarantee you that this was no teacher's idea! but no. they want our students to be graced with a 21st century classroom - which basically translates to blogging about multiplication facts instead of learning them. we have to sneak this stuff in on the sly and hope we don't get written up for it. written up for actually trying to teach! can you believe?!

Beyond that, I believe it is up to the community and the families to take care of our special needs students. When I say community, I don't mean mandating programs and taxing the middle class, I mean help out your neighbor, your friends, your community. That's where we are falling short.

yes. community is becoming a legend. people are too affixed to their screens. we have our pc at home that we use for email and my mfp addiction, but we have no cell phones or pocket computers to take out into the world and further isolate ourselves, because that is really what this technology wave is doing. that, and instilling entitlement and instant gratification as basic human rights. but that is an entirely different can of worms. long live land-lines!

If a person's kid can't pay attention in class, is disruptive or unresponsive, don't punish my child and take his/her time away to babysit Little Johnny.

*yes*

we agree here! it's just that when we remove little johnny from the class, the principal brings him back in 15 minutes later. and when we call his parents, they tell us he's our problem and not to call here again, b!tch. (yes, actual phone conversation)

it's a crazy balancing act, and the 'bad' teachers are the ones who just decide that it doesn't matter either way. for the rest of us, we just do our best with what we have, but we aren't in control of the system, flawed as it is. in our county, teachers aren't even allowed to be on the school board, which i have never understood. oh well.

chanstriste13

I think everyone involved in education gets stereotyped (teachers AND parents)...how often do you hear people say "parents just don't care anymore".."they want the system to raise their kids". Sorry, but I'm killing myself trying to raise a well mannered, educated kid who cares not just about himself but the world around him. We aren't all bad either:)

As the mother of a child with learning disabilities-do I think my child's needs are met? No. But I don't blame the teachers, I blame the system around it. He's in 5th grade but functions about 1.5-2 years behind that. Give him 3-4th grade level work and he's flawless. But he and his teachers are constantly measured by how well he meets a standard that everyone knows he doesn't have the ability to meet, which is unfair to both of them. He does a great job with his modifications, is an honor roll A-B student...but the child works 7 hours at school and sometimes 2 hours at night.

I know what the teachers go through because I volunteer in his school. I walk into those classrooms and do everything I can to help lighten the load and yes-I do go to them when think something has been handled unfairly, I spend an equal amount of time telling them what they are doing right. I hope you teachers know that to the parents and kids who do take the time to notice, you make all the difference in the world.

you sound like a great parent! i wish everyone could be as dedicated to their children as you. kudos to you!

iuangina

I think everyone involved in education gets stereotyped (teachers AND parents)...how often do you hear people say "parents just don't care anymore".."they want the system to raise their kids". Sorry, but I'm killing myself trying to raise a well mannered, educated kid who cares not just about himself but the world around him. We aren't all bad either:)

As the mother of a child with learning disabilities-do I think my child's needs are met? No. But I don't blame the teachers, I blame the system around it. He's in 5th grade but functions about 1.5-2 years behind that. Give him 3-4th grade level work and he's flawless. But he and his teachers are constantly measured by how well he meets a standard that everyone knows he doesn't have the ability to meet, which is unfair to both of them. He does a great job with his modifications, is an honor roll A-B student...but the child works 7 hours at school and sometimes 2 hours at night.

I know what the teachers go through because I volunteer in his school. I walk into those classrooms and do everything I can to help lighten the load and yes-I do go to them when think something has been handled unfairly, I spend an equal amount of time telling them what they are doing right. I hope you teachers know that to the parents and kids who do take the time to notice, you make all the difference in the world.

you sound like a great parent! i wish everyone could be as dedicated to their children as you. kudos to you!

There are some people here that would say your child should not be in a regular classroom. I don't understand how they can say that. I think that schools should have contracts with parents. I know that there are schools here that do that and they are awesome! Make them volunteer at the school in some way. It doesn't have to be just during the school day. There are plenty of times for interaction with the children at school both during the day and outside the day. You are an amazing person to volunteer your time to the school. As a teacher, THANK YOU for ALL that YOU do.

VegesaurusRex

How long had you been an employee for the federal government? What agency did you for? I know when I worked for the government it would take an act of congress to get rid of someone with more than 3 years of experience.

USPTO, a little over a year. If you didn't meet your quotas you were out, no questions asked. And the quotas were pretty insane, especially if you had a bad supervisor who didn't sign off your work in a timely manner.

I don't know how that agency works with their systems, but I would imagine that someone with more experience than you would be very hard to remove for performance unless it is a RIF (and that's different - teachers have those too BTW). It's kind of the same thing with teachers.

That right there is what people object to. Outwith government employ - and this is pretty much a global issue - if there's an issue with performance and it remains unaddressed, that employee is let go. This sort of protection of sub-standard performers is what really gets my goat, and that of a lot of other people. I cannot see any reason why a government employee should have so much more protection, financially and in terms of job security, than someone in the private sector. If you're incompetent to do your job adequately, you should be dismissed, and a competent person hired to replace you. End of story. As a tax payer, I rather object to paying the salaries of incompetent workers, simply because their jobs are so protected it would take an Act of Congress (or similar!), to remove them. If dismissal is on other grounds, then sure, you should be protected as private-sector workers are - by legislation designed for that purpose - but a situation in which an incompetent, inadequate employee cannot be dismissed is laughable, and makes a lot of people angry. By the way, this doesn't just apply to teachers - I find the level of protection offered to all government employees in most parts of the developed world utterly absurd.

As absurd as it may be, it is part of the 5th amendment to the US constitution. Most government employees have a property right in their jobs and cannot be deprived of that right without due process. Many times that process includes numerous warnings, suspensions, and reprimands before a firing can actually take place. They also are entitled to a hearing to contest the decision. It's not fair, but it's the way the courts have interpreted the due process clause. So, a lot of employers don't take the time to even bother with it unless it's really bad. This results in the so-called "pass the trash" process. Where bad employees are transferred to other offices to "improve", but rarely their work improve. If you don't like it, it's going to take a lot more than b%ing about it to change it. I don't know what the solution is, but teachers and government employees didn't invent the system. Maybe we should blame the courts.

Yes, that is absurd alright. The U.S. Consititution was not written just for teachers, although some may think so. Fifth Amendment Due Process covers everyone within the jurisdiction of the United States. Due process in proceedings against teachers is a creature of contract and state law, and has nothing to do with the US Consititution.

chanstriste13

That right there is what people object to. Outwith government employ - and this is pretty much a global issue - if there's an issue with performance and it remains unaddressed, that employee is let go. This sort of protection of sub-standard performers is what really gets my goat, and that of a lot of other people. I cannot see any reason why a government employee should have so much more protection, financially and in terms of job security, than someone in the private sector. If you're incompetent to do your job adequately, you should be dismissed, and a competent person hired to replace you. End of story. As a tax payer, I rather object to paying the salaries of incompetent workers, simply because their jobs are so protected it would take an Act of Congress (or similar!), to remove them. If dismissal is on other grounds, then sure, you should be protected as private-sector workers are - by legislation designed for that purpose - but a situation in which an incompetent, inadequate employee cannot be dismissed is laughable, and makes a lot of people angry. By the way, this doesn't just apply to teachers - I find the level of protection offered to all government employees in most parts of the developed world utterly absurd.

yes, incompetent employees should not be paid. but in education, just because a teacher is not meeting a standard does not make them incompetent. there are an incredible number of facets that go into it because you are working with children. i'll use my husband as an example. he teaches world history, AP, honors and standard. his AP and honors students, primarily come from middle class to wealthy families who work 9 to 5 jobs, are home with them for dinner in the evenings, shuttle them to soccer practice or gymnastics on the weekends, and have had a hand in their education since they were very young. their scores on standardized testing are fine, because they have generally been supported by their families through the entire process of their schooling.

now, his standard classes. they are not standard. these are the students who live in the projects, whose parents either work several jobs to make ends meet and are not available to assist with school work, some of their parents are drug dealers, some of the students are drug dealers and felons, some of the students have very low IQs and should not be held to the standardized testing bar, some of these students came to my husband not being able to read, some of these students just immigrated to the country from various places and cannot speak a lick of english, some of these students' parents had them at the age of 13 or 14 and cannot read or write themselves, some of them are pregnant, some of them are responsible for caring for their younger siblings while their parents are at work, or passed out, or prostituting...i could go on and on.

someone looking at the testing scores of this kind of classroom could easily jump to the conclusion that my husband is an incompetent teacher and is not doing his job. but this just isn't true. you aren't seeing the big picture. education is just not black and white like that. education is not number pushing, as so many would like to make it. your students come to you with their home life and social situation attached. you can't just remove that from the issue.

castadiva

There are some people here that would say your child should not be in a regular classroom. I don't understand how they can say that.

Why? If a child copes brilliantly with 3rd or 4th grade work, but is struggling with 5th grade material, being held to a standard, (and his teachers with him), that is beyond his capabilities at the moment, why have him sit and struggle in a 5th grade classroom? Why not have him in a situation, whether that is in a 4th grade classroom, or a classroom geared specially towards his needs, where he can excel and feel proud of himself, as he rightly should, rather than being eternally surrounded by evidence that he is "behind"? Kids aren't stupid - no matter how often you tell a child that he is doing brilliantly, the evidence of his own eyes and observations will make him aware that he is not matching the achievements of the other kids around him. To have a child who works 7-9 hours a day to keep up with a programme that he will be aware is not the same as his peers is a recipe for frustration and self-esteem issues. This mother sounds like she's doing a brilliant job in a difficult situation, but this nonsensical insistence that all be treated exactly alike in educational establishments is HURTING kids at both ends of the spectrum, not helping them.