4 whole eggs?

grinch031

The lipid hypothesis was the general consensus for decades even though it is deeply flawed. How does what you're saying prove or disprove anything about the insulin hypothesis?

It doesn't. I wasn't trying to prove or disprove the insulin hypothesis. I was instead pointing out what is to me an obvious flaw in the hypothesis that has not been adequately addressed. Insulin and insulin resistance are linked. One can claim that out-of-control insulin levels cause insulin resistance. Alternatively, one can claim that insulin resistance causes out-of-control insulin levels. It is difficult to separate the two. Experimentally, you can only measure the outcome, the endpoint, the final product: onset of diabetes. You can demonstrate correlation in humans. You can draw inferences from that correlation. You can re-create conditions in animal models and find more correlations and occasionally demonstrate cause and effect. But that's it.

So... what I was offering to you was another, logical, rational way to think about the information you've been provided. I suppose I'm hoping you might sit back, take a good look at the data, and realize that Dr. What's-his-name is offering only one of many possibly true hypotheses. There are other valid interpretations of the data. And there is other data that you're simply ignoring.

Show me specific data that I am ignoring that disproves the insulin hypothesis.

Otherwise what you're saying is that I'm supposed to believe the insulin hypothesis is false, simply because I can't prove that its true? Why would I do this considering none of my real world observations about dieting even support the possibility of any alternate hypothesis that has been presented. In short, the alternate hypothesis' of food reward or lack of self-control just don't add up to me. Period.

DragonflyF15

Carbs get such a bad rap, there are good carbs and bad carbs. Real fruit juice can be considered bad carbs cause you are getting too much fruit in a concentrate form at one time. Eat real fruit and veggies, high fiber breads with low sugar like rye and pumperknickel...be weary of labels that say whole wheat whole grain, while it may be high in fiber, the ingredient list might have some form of sugar added in. Balance out the carb intake by eating healthy fats with it...whole milk, real butter, real cheese (all dairy hormone free and organic), avocado, coconut, nuts, extra virgin olive oil and etc...why? Because it slows down the absorption of sugars from good carbs into our bodies, avoiding that spike.

Off topic, just noted it started to drift to talking about carbs. Folks, just use common sense. Eat as natural as you can. Get lots of fresh fruit and veggies in. Try to find ocean caught fish and avoid meats with hormones and antibiotics in it. Eat healthy fat and everything else, is a treat to enjoy now and then. Keep it simple and basic

gemmaldavies

The only thing that's bad I can think of are the cholesterol in the yolks.

I eat 4 hard boiled egg whites and just throw the yolks away.

Maybe just eat 1 with yolk and the rest whites?

absolutely agree, great advice.

LabRat529

Show me specific data that I am ignoring that disproves the insulin hypothesis.

You've already been shown data. It is in this thread and in several more like it. Why should I spend (more) of my time digging through the literature for you?

If you are really open minded and really want to learn, go to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ I recommend starting with the search terms "insulin resistance + causes". You'll notice "insulin" as a cause does not come up.

But I thought THIS was interesting (of course it's only in rats... but still...):

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2010 Nov;299(5):E808-15. Epub 2010 Aug 31.
A high-fat, ketogenic diet causes hepatic insulin resistance in mice, despite increasing energy expenditure and preventing weight gain.
Jornayvaz FR, Jurczak MJ, Lee HY, Birkenfeld AL, Frederick DW, Zhang D, Zhang XM, Samuel VT, Shulman GI.
Source
Depts. of Internal Medicine, Yale Univ. School of Medicine, New Haven, CT 06536, USA.
Abstract
Low-carbohydrate, high-fat ketogenic diets (KD) have been suggested to be more effective in promoting weight loss than conventional caloric restriction, whereas their effect on hepatic glucose and lipid metabolism and the mechanisms by which they may promote weight loss remain controversial. The aim of this study was to explore the role of KD on liver and muscle insulin sensitivity, hepatic lipid metabolism, energy expenditure, and food intake. Using hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamps, we studied insulin action in mice fed a KD or regular chow (RC). Body composition was assessed by ¹H magnetic resonance spectroscopy. Despite being 15% lighter (P < 0.001) than RC-fed mice because of a 17% increase in energy expenditure (P < 0.001), KD-fed mice manifested severe hepatic insulin resistance, as reflected by decreased suppression (0% vs. 100% in RC-fed mice, P < 0.01) of endogenous glucose production during the clamp. Hepatic insulin resistance could be attributed to a 350% increase in hepatic diacylglycerol content (P < 0.001), resulting in increased activation of PKCε (P < 0.05) and decreased insulin receptor substrate-2 tyrosine phosphorylation (P < 0.01). Food intake was 56% (P < 0.001) lower in KD-fed mice, despite similar caloric intake, and could partly be attributed to a more than threefold increase (P < 0.05) in plasma N-acylphosphatidylethanolamine concentrations. In conclusion, despite preventing weight gain in mice, KD induces hepatic insulin resistance secondary to increased hepatic diacylglycerol content. Given the key role of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease in the development of type 2 diabetes and the widespread use of KD for the treatment of obesity, these results may have potentially important clinical implications.

Look... I have my biases too. I'm really not trying to attack the low-carb life style. It works for some people. It really does! And if I ever become insulin resistant, I'll probably use a low-carb diet to keep my blood glucose under control.

I just don't like bad science, and bad science happens when people (including me) draw inferences from the literature that are either not supported by that literature or that are just one of many possible explanations for the data.

Acg67

Show me specific data that I am ignoring that disproves the insulin hypothesis.

Since you observational data

Age relations of cardiovascular risk factors in a traditional Melanesian society: the Kitava Study. Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Oct;66(4):845-52

www.ajcn.org/content/66/4/845.full.pdf

Now they avg 69% of their daily kcal in CHO, then check out what their avg BMI was in Table 3, shouldn't they be obese because CHO is uniquely fattening?

grinch031

Show me specific data that I am ignoring that disproves the insulin hypothesis.

You've already been shown data. It is in this thread and in several more like it. Why should I spend (more) of my time digging through the literature for you?

If you are really open minded and really want to learn, go to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ I recommend starting with the search terms "insulin resistance + causes". You'll notice "insulin" as a cause does not come up.

But I thought THIS was interesting (of course it's only in rats... but still...):

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2010 Nov;299(5):E808-15. Epub 2010 Aug 31.
A high-fat, ketogenic diet causes hepatic insulin resistance in mice, despite increasing energy expenditure and preventing weight gain.
Jornayvaz FR, Jurczak MJ, Lee HY, Birkenfeld AL, Frederick DW, Zhang D, Zhang XM, Samuel VT, Shulman GI.
Source
Depts. of Internal Medicine, Yale Univ. School of Medicine, New Haven, CT 06536, USA.
Abstract
Low-carbohydrate, high-fat ketogenic diets (KD) have been suggested to be more effective in promoting weight loss than conventional caloric restriction, whereas their effect on hepatic glucose and lipid metabolism and the mechanisms by which they may promote weight loss remain controversial. The aim of this study was to explore the role of KD on liver and muscle insulin sensitivity, hepatic lipid metabolism, energy expenditure, and food intake. Using hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamps, we studied insulin action in mice fed a KD or regular chow (RC). Body composition was assessed by ¹H magnetic resonance spectroscopy. Despite being 15% lighter (P < 0.001) than RC-fed mice because of a 17% increase in energy expenditure (P < 0.001), KD-fed mice manifested severe hepatic insulin resistance, as reflected by decreased suppression (0% vs. 100% in RC-fed mice, P < 0.01) of endogenous glucose production during the clamp. Hepatic insulin resistance could be attributed to a 350% increase in hepatic diacylglycerol content (P < 0.001), resulting in increased activation of PKCε (P < 0.05) and decreased insulin receptor substrate-2 tyrosine phosphorylation (P < 0.01). Food intake was 56% (P < 0.001) lower in KD-fed mice, despite similar caloric intake, and could partly be attributed to a more than threefold increase (P < 0.05) in plasma N-acylphosphatidylethanolamine concentrations. In conclusion, despite preventing weight gain in mice, KD induces hepatic insulin resistance secondary to increased hepatic diacylglycerol content. Given the key role of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease in the development of type 2 diabetes and the widespread use of KD for the treatment of obesity, these results may have potentially important clinical implications.

Look... I have my biases too. I'm really not trying to attack the low-carb life style. It works for some people. It really does! And if I ever become insulin resistant, I'll probably use a low-carb diet to keep my blood glucose under control.

I just don't like bad science, and bad science happens when people (including me) draw inferences from the literature that are either not supported by that literature or that are just one of many possible explanations for the data.

What inferences did I draw that are not supported by its literature? I read Good Calories, Bad Calories, which references dozens if not hundreds of studies, and am drawing my conclusions based on that because it seems to be reconcilable with real world observations. Just because somebody can pull up a few studies that really don't disprove anything except for minor insignificant points, doesn't mean I should throw the whole thing out the window.

And I don't trust the site that Ron posted earlier that refutes the hypothesis. Still looking into his claims, but I'm not going to blindly accept it as truth considering his own hypothesis doesn't seem any better to me.

Acg67

What inferences did I draw that are not supported by its literature? I read Good Calories, Bad Calories, which references dozens if not hundreds of studies, and am drawing my conclusions based on that because it seems to be reconcilable with real world observations. Just because somebody can pull up a few studies that really don't disprove anything except for minor insignificant points, doesn't mean I should throw the whole thing out the window.

And I don't trust the site that Ron posted earlier that refutes the hypothesis. Still looking into his claims, but I'm not going to blindly accept it as truth considering his own hypothesis doesn't seem any better to me.

That site also is heavily referenced, so Taubes' references are more reliable?

grinch031

What inferences did I draw that are not supported by its literature? I read Good Calories, Bad Calories, which references dozens if not hundreds of studies, and am drawing my conclusions based on that because it seems to be reconcilable with real world observations. Just because somebody can pull up a few studies that really don't disprove anything except for minor insignificant points, doesn't mean I should throw the whole thing out the window.

And I don't trust the site that Ron posted earlier that refutes the hypothesis. Still looking into his claims, but I'm not going to blindly accept it as truth considering his own hypothesis doesn't seem any better to me.

That site also is heavily referenced, so Taubes' references are more reliable?

I don't know honestly. But I'm not going to jump ship because somebody on a message board tells me to.

Acg67

What inferences did I draw that are not supported by its literature? I read Good Calories, Bad Calories, which references dozens if not hundreds of studies, and am drawing my conclusions based on that because it seems to be reconcilable with real world observations. Just because somebody can pull up a few studies that really don't disprove anything except for minor insignificant points, doesn't mean I should throw the whole thing out the window.

And I don't trust the site that Ron posted earlier that refutes the hypothesis. Still looking into his claims, but I'm not going to blindly accept it as truth considering his own hypothesis doesn't seem any better to me.

That site also is heavily referenced, so Taubes' references are more reliable?

I don't know honestly. But I'm not going to jump ship because somebody on a message board tells me to.

I will say you have seemed to broaden your knowledge base even if you dismiss half of what you learned as inconsequential. You at least acknowledge protein is insulinogenic, ASP and it's role in fat storage etc etc

lulabox

For the record as a PhD student: research papers are a bunch of hypotheses with data to support or reject them. Without reading the paper fully and actually understanding the statistics behind it, you can't quote JAMA/other journal abstract without appreciating the study design: sample number, control group, statistical methods etc. It's actually a steep learning curve and I hope I will master critical appraisal of research in my field in the next couple of years. People on forums are for the majority amateurs who have a tendency to cherry pick sources of information to validate their claims ("quackery" it's called by some).

Only expert in the field will probably be able to assess the validity of the claim and the peer review is less than foolproof. Bad papers get into good journals all the time, and there are lots of bad journals out there. Also, always look at competing interested, who funded the study (public funds, private body, pharma etc) and where it was done.

I recommend the following books:
Bad Science http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bad-Science-Ben-Goldacre/dp/0007240198http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bad-Science-Ben-Goldacre/dp/0007240198
Hoe to lie with statistics http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Lie-Statistics-Penguin-Business/dp/0140136290/ref=pd_sim_b_21

grinch031

Show me specific data that I am ignoring that disproves the insulin hypothesis.

Since you observational data

Age relations of cardiovascular risk factors in a traditional Melanesian society: the Kitava Study. Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Oct;66(4):845-52

www.ajcn.org/content/66/4/845.full.pdf

Now they avg 69% of their daily kcal in CHO, then check out what their avg BMI was in Table 3, shouldn't they be obese because CHO is uniquely fattening?

From a blog:

"According to the Kitava Study, Kitavans consumed 300 out of 370 grams of carbohydrates from yam, sweet potato, and taro, 50 grams from fruits, 7 grams from coconut, and 14 grams from other vegetables. Because of the fairly primitive environment where Kitavans were in at the time when the study was conducted, the yam, sweet potato, and taro, as well as fruits and other vegetables, which they consumed, were likely low in both glycemic indices and glycemic loads without the work of bioengineering on these foods for improving the contents of digestible carbohydrates including starch. Thus, the blood glucose level of Kitavans was considerably stable and lower than which of their Western counterparts including Americans and Swedish at the time when the study was conducted. The secretion of serum insulin is normally corresponding to the level of blood glucose. Thus, the serum insulin level of Kitavans also was lower than which of their Western counterparts."

slayerdan

I didnt read any of the replies as it doesnt matter. If four eggs a day work for you, its perfectly fine. I eat alot of eggs, and even at my heaviest, my cholesterol never has been over 169---EVER. More and more studies show cholesterol levels are def more genetic vs diet, although a totally bad diet will influence it. I ALWAYS eat whole eggs, as much as two dowzen a week. Just check your cholesterol and make sure it doesnt change and eat away.

sunnykm

I eat one whole egg plus 4 whites, 1/2 tomato, onion and baby spinach along with 2 WW whole wheat bread and 1 cup of 1% milk for BF and I am good till Lunch. check out my food log.

grinch031

I will say you have seemed to broaden your knowledge base even if you dismiss half of what you learned as inconsequential. You at least acknowledge protein is insulinogenic, ASP and it's role in fat storage etc etc

Thanks I take that as a compliment. Another thing I'm skeptical about is the true relevance of leptin.

If you treat leptin as an anti-obesity hormone, leptin is only increased as a result of carbohydrate intake. Why would the body only want to suppress appetite after eating carbs and not after eating fat or protein? Could it be excess carbs are a threat to the body more than fat and protein? Why is more leptin produced when someone increased in size?

If you treat leptin as an anti-starvation hormone, could it be leptin is signaling the brain based on the availability of carbohydrates? Eating no carbs means starvation could happen soon, whereas eating an abundance of carbs means the body is safe from starvation? Again why doesn't eating loads of fat indicate the body is safe from starvation?

So then my question regards to leptin is why can so many people go on low-carb diets where leptin levels are low, and they have no problem with hunger?

Run4UrHealth

I think its ok, I love making scrabbled eggs. I mix 2 or 3 eggs with 1/4 cup chunky salsa and scramble. Then lots of Franks red hot sauce soooooo good

we are kindred spirit..i love franks hot sauce !!

Me too...Frank's Hot Sauce makes anything taste good. I had a Smart Ones Mac & Cheese that was nasty and put some Frank's on it and it was yummy!

gailashton

I actually do the same only with 1 yoke - the yoke actually has all the fat, cholesterol and most of the calories. The whites have all the protein..... go figure.....

hpynh2o

Eggs probably get a bum wrap. But I still try to limit my consumption of whole eggs.

Lately, I've been mixing one whole egg and the equivalent amount of three egg whites to make scrambles or omelets. You can buy egg whites in a carton in the grocery next to regular eggs. Tastes the same, still has great protein and is very filling but without the big dose of cholesterol and extra calories.

One whole egg is 90 calories. One egg white is 25 calories.

emdeegan

the cholesterol from eggs is GOOD cholesterol and not that bad cholesterol.. i know.. hard to believe that there is such a thing as "good cholesterol" but there is.. it took me a while to grasp it.. but my doctor reassures me its true..

its similar to the idea of good fats.. avocados, evoo, etc...

if its keeping you full and you're successful with your weigh goals.. i say EAT IT...

ignatiusreilly

STYD

lizzyloe

your lucky you don't get gas from so many eggs! i guess one egg has 70 cal! crazy huh!

Inlet

There are 2 types of cholesterol, HDL (high density lipoprotein) and LDL (low density lipoprotein). HDL is extremely beneficial and protects against heart disease. Eggs are rich in HDL. Please research this! Unless you are on a low fat diet specifically for high cholesterol, eggs are beneficial. (in the same way that fish oil is beneficial to heart health)
I eat a good four eggs a day and my cholesterol levels are testing awesome. I get it checked now and again.
Eggs are a good fat.

Edit: plus they are full of vitamin a, b vitamins, vitamin e and d. They contain everything needed to grow a baby chick to hatchable maturity. Egg yolkss are nutritional gold. I will even eat them without the whites if I'm feeling too full for both.

The whole "eggs are dangerous" idea is old science.

mrmanmeat

The only thing that's bad I can think of are the cholesterol in the yolks.

I eat 4 hard boiled egg whites and just throw the yolks away.

Maybe just eat 1 with yolk and the rest whites?

There's always the case that egg cholesterol is good for you too.
I usually mix egg whites with 1-3 eggs.

LabRat529

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21705072

That is a beautiful review article on diabetes and insulin resistance. I don't know if you can access the whole thing. I'm trying to figure out how I can drop a PDF in here.

But well worth a read. Better than a book. From one of the best scientific/medical journals.

Acg67

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21705072

That is a beautiful review article on diabetes and insulin resistance. I don't know if you can access the whole thing. I'm trying to figure out how I can drop a PDF in here.

But well worth a read. Better than a book. From one of the best scientific/medical journals.

link to full pdf

http://www.docvadis.it/assistenzadomiciliare/document/assistenzadomiciliare/type_2_diabetes_across_generations_from_pathophysiology_to_prevention_and_management/fr/metadata/files/0/file/Nolan.pdf

LabRat529

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21705072

That is a beautiful review article on diabetes and insulin resistance. I don't know if you can access the whole thing. I'm trying to figure out how I can drop a PDF in here.

But well worth a read. Better than a book. From one of the best scientific/medical journals.

link to full pdf

http://www.docvadis.it/assistenzadomiciliare/document/assistenzadomiciliare/type_2_diabetes_across_generations_from_pathophysiology_to_prevention_and_management/fr/metadata/files/0/file/Nolan.pdf

Thank you!

Cgalit

thank you! Just wanted some thought on it.

I didnt read any of the replies as it doesnt matter. If four eggs a day work for you, its perfectly fine. I eat alot of eggs, and even at my heaviest, my cholesterol never has been over 169---EVER. More and more studies show cholesterol levels are def more genetic vs diet, although a totally bad diet will influence it. I ALWAYS eat whole eggs, as much as two dowzen a week. Just check your cholesterol and make sure it doesnt change and eat away.

fastframebelair

If your cholesterol is good don't worry about it. Eggs are nutrient rich and that's probably why you aren't hungry until lunch. I've to say I'm on a diet now where I eat two eggs and spinach for breakfast - talk about being filled!

fastframebelair

Egg yolks are so nutrient rich and should not be skipped, seriously. Egg whites are useless.

fastframebelair

This is a perfect post and positively more than correct about good old eggs. Seriously. Thank you for telling the truth.

There are 2 types of cholesterol, HDL (high density lipoprotein) and LDL (low density lipoprotein). HDL is extremely beneficial and protects against heart disease. Eggs are rich in HDL. Please research this! Unless you are on a low fat diet specifically for high cholesterol, eggs are beneficial. (in the same way that fish oil is beneficial to heart health)
I eat a good four eggs a day and my cholesterol levels are testing awesome. I get it checked now and again.
Eggs are a good fat.

Edit: plus they are full of vitamin a, b vitamins, vitamin e and d. They contain everything needed to grow a baby chick to hatchable maturity. Egg yolkss are nutritional gold. I will even eat them without the whites if I'm feeling too full for both.

The whole "eggs are dangerous" idea is old science.

livingaloha

if you are doing well with it, dont change it! I took a nutrition class, and have done alot of research nutrition wise, the yolk is where all the nutrition is. so if its working for you and you dont have a problem with cholesterol I wouldnt change a thing. I always eat the whole egg, foods as nature designed them!