Very low calorie diets and metabolic damage

stroutman81

You're welcome.

hyper_focus

I alternate between 'average' and VLC diet days. The only difference? zero "fun food" in the VLC plan. I normally eat very healthy and gluten free, but most days a treat myself to something like a couple squares of chocolate or a scoop of ice cream. As was mentioned, on VLC diets every calorie counts and needs to be packed with nutrition. If you take a look at my recent week, take note of the 1000 calorie days. I take iron and B12 for anemia, as well as calcium and magnesium for migraines, so these cover the holes in my current plan. Aside from that, i get plenty of fiber and protein! And no hunger pangs (which I get when I eat higher-carb/calorie)

Matt_Wild

My question is why run VLCD when one doesn't have to? I find dieting down to stage shape on around 2500-3000 calorie hell so to consume VLCD levels of calories?

Every man and woman I have coached for stage gets ripped to the bone and hits no less than than 1500 calories per day and gets into the best shape of the lives. Most of the men are on 2000-2100.

As for health OP, do you really believe one can consume the correct vitamins, minerals etc on such a low dietary intake? You may look healthier now, what about your bones etc?

artslady96

Thank you,OP, for the very informative post. I don't think VLCD is for me on a regular basis, but it definitely makes me feel better about days where I don't reach 1200 calories and I receive that "MFP warning" upon closing my food diary.

AntWrig

This is only going to solidify the notion that VLCD are acceptable for the average person looking to lose weight. I have read Lyle's work and I don't see the need one someone would have to go to such measures, if they planned their diet out correctly.

I can see it now, someone who is "desperate" to lose weight. Will see this thread and immediately start a VLCD thinking they are going to reach their goals.

Oh, well this debate will never end. While I respect your post, I feel you have done more harm than good.

AntWrig

My question is why run VLCD when one doesn't have to? I find dieting down to stage shape on around 2500-3000 calorie hell so to consume VLCD levels of calories?

Every man and woman I have coached for stage gets ripped to the bone and hits no less than than 1500 calories per day and gets into the best shape of the lives. Most of the men are on 2000-2100.

As for health OP, do you really believe one can consume the correct vitamins, minerals etc on such a low dietary intake? You may look healthier now, what about your bones etc?

I was alluding to the same point. My lowest calorie intake was at 1800 during my last show, and the was after a massive refeed.

If a dieter decides to immediately jump to a VLCD, then they have no clue what they are doing. That's like me saying I want to become a pilot and the first plane I "fly" is a SR-71 Blackbird.

stroutman81

My question is why run VLCD when one doesn't have to? I find dieting down to stage shape on around 2500-3000 calorie hell so to consume VLCD levels of calories?

Every man and woman I have coached for stage gets ripped to the bone and hits no less than than 1500 calories per day and gets into the best shape of the lives. Most of the men are on 2000-2100.

As for health OP, do you really believe one can consume the correct vitamins, minerals etc on such a low dietary intake? You may look healthier now, what about your bones etc?

I think you're assuming that I advocate vlc dieting. Maybe I'm wrong... but that's what your questions are pointing toward. I don't advocate them. I've been running a strength & conditioning business for a decade now and by and large, when it comes to nutrition and fat loss, my mantra is slow and steady. My mantra is based on eating as much food and nutrition as possible while still allowing for a reasonable rate of weight loss over longer spanses of time.

That said, there are instances when vlcd come into play. Some literature shows that with obese subjects, rapid fat loss from the onset leads to longer lasting fat loss over time. This is likely psychological, as you slap them in the face with the cold hard truth that it is possible for them to lose fat... and lots of it. They carry that belief with them as you transition them into a more sane nutrition strategy after a month or two.

I've used vlcd with some of my athletes who participate in weigh class sports who started far too late.

Do I believe you can get adequate nutrition on a vlcd you asked. If you structure it right... of course. But it's tough for many people since the deeper your calories go, the less wiggle room you have, per se. Just look at Lyle McDonalds protein sparing modified fast. That's not far off from how I'd structure things and that's proven to be wildly successful for a lot of folks over the years.

The point is... these aren't the devil that the media and some fitness professionals make them out to be. I'm not sitting here advocating them at all. I'm simply trying to shine some objectivity on a subject that far too may 'professionals' are painting as black/white, right/wrong.

stroutman81

This is only going to solidify the notion that VLCD are acceptable for the average person looking to lose weight. I have read Lyle's work and I don't see the need one someone would have to go to such measures, if they planned their diet out correctly.

I can see it now, someone who is "desperate" to lose weight. Will see this thread and immediately start a VLCD thinking they are going to reach their goals.

Oh, well this debate will never end. While I respect your post, I feel you have done more harm than good.

Sorry you feel that way. My objective is to maintain the integrity of information and stop the dichotomous finger pointing that goes on in this industry. I've been at this for quite a while and I've learned that people prefer the truth over anything else... especially in a field that's littered with hucksters and shady sales tactics.

I was very clear in my posts in this thread that this isn't a strategy I recommend. I assume that the basic person using the Internet for the exchange of information has a modicum of reading comprehension. Maybe that's a stretch... I don't know.

I've put a number of clients on stage as well and I've never had to resort to vlcd either for what it's worth. But that's a straw man fallacy at best. I never claimed anyone had to diet like this to reach super lean levels. Not in the least. I suggest going back and reading through the thread.

Matt_Wild

What about health inside OP? Not a lot of mention on anything bar the heart. Bones and other organs?

stroutman81

What about health inside OP? Not a lot of mention on anything bar the heart. Bones and other organs?

Elaborate please.

JodaNord

Want to read more but have to work for now!

Great information!

leantool

bump. very informative..

Matt_Wild

What about health inside OP? Not a lot of mention on anything bar the heart. Bones and other organs?

Elaborate please.

VLCD and what if any damage may occur. Esp with women. Who seem to diet in this manner?

What about the effects of most people who yo-yo diet this way? What about the effect on their bodies?

Posts like your IMO give people the tools to think VLCD is a normal thing to do, rather than learning a lifestyle change.

stroutman81

What about health inside OP? Not a lot of mention on anything bar the heart. Bones and other organs?

Elaborate please.

VLCD and what if any damage may occur. Esp with women. Who seem to diet in this manner?

What about the effects of most people who yo-yo diet this way? What about the effect on their bodies?

Posts like your IMO give people the tools to think VLCD is a normal thing to do, rather than learning a lifestyle change.

Proof that intermittent spouts of vlcd is harmful to the body when structured to ensure adequate nutrition?

Here are some important points I think you glossed over when you initially read my posts:

"This isn't an argument for people to start following VLCD as most will fail miserably. Once you factor in the psychology aspects of them, they're just not right for most long term fat loss plans."

" In addition, the lower your energy intake is, the more careful you have to be about nutritional adequacy. Meaning it becomes very easy to shortchange yourself of particular facets of nutrition, which can ultimately tap into "health."

" But these experiments on the obese patients led to losses in other types of muscle... namely cardiac muscle, which plays an important role in being alive, obviously.

Point is, the more food you eat, the easier it is to cover all of your nutritional bases. You can still screw things up, but it's just harder. "

"It's just that those times and places don't match beginners who obviously need to learn nutrition fundamentals before they go experimenting with advanced dieting techniques. "

"Sure, most people will screw up VLCDs, as I mention in the original post. I also mention that it's not something that most beginners... or really most people in general... should be experimenting with. I agree with you on that. But to claim that in all cases they're bad and that in all cases they'll lead to muscle loss, a dead metabolism, harm, (insert any other myth here) is simply false.

While people deserve to be warned of potential hazards, they also deserve evidence-based truth... I hope you would agree with that. "

These words mean something. They weren't meant to be discounted to the point where my message is boiled down to "it's okay for pretty much anyone to do a vlcd and they will never cause harm regardless of how they're applied." I'm happy that you take a precautionary stance when it comes to this stuff. I'm also appreciative that you're helping put an 'exclamation point' on the warnings I made in my posts in this thread. Really I am.

If you looked at the totality of my posting here and elsewhere, you'd see that our philosophies are much closer than you think. But the point of this thread was to step outside the realms of alarmism and look at a touchy subject objectively. How people choose to utilize this information is up for debate.

hpsnickers1

I agree. I think the term "starvation" gets taken too literally in the term "starvation mode". I can eat 1000 calories of real food (meat, poultry, eggs, greens, berries, veggies, full fat coconut milk and coconut products and full fat dairy products; real food doesn't contain ingredients; real food IS an ingredient.) and get more nutrition than 1800 calories of the healthiest version of the Standard American Diet (whole-grain, low-fat, low-sugar, boxed, packaged and processed pseudofood). I blow the USDA out of the water. I eat a high fat diet - 65%-70% of my calories maybe. The SAD was helping me lose weight but I wasn't gettting healthier (and couldn't tell where the weight was coming off) and it was making me diabetic. (Yes, I am a 110lb person who has Reactive Hypoglycemia - aka prediabetes. I have never been obese and was "overweight" briefly when the scales once topped around 140).

I do know this BUT THIS IS MY N=1. The number of calories I put in my mouth has no bearing on the number on the scale - there have been days where I have stuffed myself all day and days where I haven't been all that hungry - it's balances out. What I put in my mouth does have a bearing on the scale. But I'm no longer trying to lose weight (I think calories can matter for weight loss but I think there are better ways of losing fat and getting healthy than counting calories). I've been maintaining - with a Primal lifestyle - for a year and a half now. Maintaining 110-112lbs easily - not by counting calories but by eating real food (which in my world doesn't include birdseed, beans, refined sugar and commercial dairy). I dropped a total of 22lbs and 12lbs of that while eating a high fat diet and not counting calories (and already at a "healthy" weight of 120lbs) and doing very little exercise (no muscle loss).

The metabolic damage is already there. That is obesity. A broken metabolism; a loss in metabolic flexibility; an inability to access your own fat stores. Dropping the calories will help lose some pounds (the more you have to lose the more you will lose) and it will improve some health markers but it won't fix the damaged metabolism. Exercise can help but it alone won't fix a damaged metabolism. You have to change what you put in your mouth.

Stroutman: you actually helped lead me to the Primal Blueprint lifestyle. I kept asking you about the importance of whole grains and you just kept pushing calories. So I cut out the grains (and other things). It was the best thing I ever did for my body, mind, and health. Yes, 6 months of low-fat, low-sugar, lots of "healthy whole grain" calorie counting (and lots and lots of exercise ) helped me drop 10lbs. I went from a size 10-12 to a size 8-10. I went Primal and in 6 weeks I was a size 2 with a 7lb loss (and I was already at a "healthy" 120lbs when I went Primal). A year and a half later I'm still a size 2. You know what happens when I go really crazy on fat? I become hyper and my body gets really warm and I have to start moving. You know what happens when I go crazy on carbs (doesn't matter what type)? I become slow, lethargic, and I don't want to move. I want to lay down an take a nap.

mfpcopine

Thank you for a detailed and nuanced discussion.

aplhabetacheesecake

There was a thread that was deleted yesterday where the original poster was asking if it was okay to consume something like 800 calories per day. I'm not sure exactly why it was removed, but it likely had something to do with person after person telling the OP that she was being stupid.

_______awesum post! but can you please link to your nutrition 101 article, i ran a search for it but only came across a protein article,
Thanks!

stroutman81

I'm not allowed to link to external links. I think someone else posted a thread about the article. Let me go dig it up.

stroutman81

Can't find the big thread but here was someone else mentioning it:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/568546-a-must-read?hl=body-improvements.com/resources/eat#posts-8048761

Matt_Wild

The problem is... we would in all likelihood agree in most if not all matters here.

However I can 100% say with all certainty that some will read you post and see VLCD as the way forward.

Matt_Wild

What I am essentially saying - you over estimate the level of knowledge that most people understand about diet and nutrition. Speaking to people day to day shows me this and no doubt yourself. Most people will get it wrong.

Peep_chic

bump to read later

stroutman81

What I am essentially saying - you over estimate the level of knowledge that most people understand about diet and nutrition. Speaking to people day to day shows me this and no doubt yourself. Most people will get it wrong.

Without a doubt. I've learned long ago that you can't help 'them all.' There's simply no chance of it. Too many people reasoning purely on emotion. Too many people out there simply looking for validation and justification for their screwed up perceptions and ideas.

I get it. I really do.

But I care about the people I can reach. The people who are interested in learning the facts. And in order to do that, while still helping the others, is to present the facts along with solid warnings... like I did here. If people choose to gloss over the warning... there's not much else I can do.

The alternative is to keep the facts to myself, when there was, at the time of writing this post, a ton of people who were very interested in learning the facts... and that doesn't seem fair either. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

jaskthotmail

So, for 3 months I ate 800 calories per day. I also started walking which led to a very slow jog. When I lost about 30 pounds, I did research and realized that few calories is not good. So I started running and upped my calories to around 1,200. I'm down almost 70 pounds and now I just run & work out because I like to and eat what I want. I now eat from 1,000-3,000 calories per day. If I splurge and eat 3,000 calories per day on the weekends or holidays, can't I have days where I eat 800-1,500 and be healthy? I feel better than I ever have, I am maintaining my weight and losing a tiny here and there (mostly inches) and building muscle. I know I don't have the perfect diet but I am trying to be healthier with that. Isn't everything good in moderation?

ninerbuff

Good to see this bump of a great thread by strout. Carry on.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Dave198lbs

there is currently an active thread where a guy did a fad diet, ate 800 calories a day, lost a bunch of weight fast, and he is STILL receiving congratulations. I did a thread about the double standard of roasting women who do the 800 a day and the congrats for a guy that does it.

it makes no sense. NONE

desivixen

Really great post!

Just the info I needed, I have an event on the 26th and another on the 15th of Jan so for the past month I've been working out consistently paired with a low-calorie diet. Not really doing the low calorie thing on purpose, just been more conscious about what I'm eating and keeping myself busy, not eating late, etc.

Since the end of November to now I've gone from 154lbs to 147lbs to 143 last week and this morning 140lbs. (combined with 30 day Shred, Jogging Cardio and pole classes). I'm about 5"4 I think

I plan on keeping it consistent like that for another couple of weeks but my question is when I want to get into a proper, realistic eating routine... how would I do it in a way that have me gain back everything I just loss? Would I just start introducing 5 small healthy meals at a time? ( i really cant do this now as 1. time and 2. I need to lose another 5lbs in less than two weeks which may be not realistic but anything close will be great!)

Sarauk2sf

I am glad this got bumped as the thread was started before I joined, so tagging to read later.

AntWrig

I agree. I think the term "starvation" gets taken too literally in the term "starvation mode". I can eat 1000 calories of real food (meat, poultry, eggs, greens, berries, veggies, full fat coconut milk and coconut products and full fat dairy products; real food doesn't contain ingredients; real food IS an ingredient.) and get more nutrition than 1800 calories of the healthiest version of the Standard American Diet (whole-grain, low-fat, low-sugar, boxed, packaged and processed pseudofood). I blow the USDA out of the water. I eat a high fat diet - 65%-70% of my calories maybe. The SAD was helping me lose weight but I wasn't gettting healthier (and couldn't tell where the weight was coming off) and it was making me diabetic. (Yes, I am a 110lb person who has Reactive Hypoglycemia - aka prediabetes. I have never been obese and was "overweight" briefly when the scales once topped around 140).

I do know this BUT THIS IS MY N=1. The number of calories I put in my mouth has no bearing on the number on the scale - there have been days where I have stuffed myself all day and days where I haven't been all that hungry - it's balances out. What I put in my mouth does have a bearing on the scale. But I'm no longer trying to lose weight (I think calories can matter for weight loss but I think there are better ways of losing fat and getting healthy than counting calories). I've been maintaining - with a Primal lifestyle - for a year and a half now. Maintaining 110-112lbs easily - not by counting calories but by eating real food (which in my world doesn't include birdseed, beans, refined sugar and commercial dairy). I dropped a total of 22lbs and 12lbs of that while eating a high fat diet and not counting calories (and already at a "healthy" weight of 120lbs) and doing very little exercise (no muscle loss).

The metabolic damage is already there. That is obesity. A broken metabolism; a loss in metabolic flexibility; an inability to access your own fat stores. Dropping the calories will help lose some pounds (the more you have to lose the more you will lose) and it will improve some health markers but it won't fix the damaged metabolism. Exercise can help but it alone won't fix a damaged metabolism. You have to change what you put in your mouth.

Stroutman: you actually helped lead me to the Primal Blueprint lifestyle. I kept asking you about the importance of whole grains and you just kept pushing calories. So I cut out the grains (and other things). It was the best thing I ever did for my body, mind, and health. Yes, 6 months of low-fat, low-sugar, lots of "healthy whole grain" calorie counting (and lots and lots of exercise ) helped me drop 10lbs. I went from a size 10-12 to a size 8-10. I went Primal and in 6 weeks I was a size 2 with a 7lb loss (and I was already at a "healthy" 120lbs when I went Primal). A year and a half later I'm still a size 2. You know what happens when I go really crazy on fat? I become hyper and my body gets really warm and I have to start moving. You know what happens when I go crazy on carbs (doesn't matter what type)? I become slow, lethargic, and I don't want to move. I want to lay down an take a nap.

I USE to think like this as well. After being on VLCD for over a year. I use to think it was the best thing since slice bread, no pun intended. I thought I was getting the mental clarity, excellent performance in gym, until I switched to a carbohydrate based diet, I am not against VLCD, because they are great for precontest and photoshoots. However, for long term, everyday living? No. Anything believe 300g for me is VLC. That's a big jump from when I use to stress go over 30g.

Sweet_Pea0107

While I think this is great post, I can tell from some of the other posts on this thread that some will just see it as validation for staying on a vlcd. With all the great info it is sad to see that some people will only use it to keep under eating.