Very low calorie diets and metabolic damage

Fitn50Grandma

Thank you for this very informative post!

amandahowze1

Great information .

Helloitsdan

Bump!

Yeah, it's pretty much about the dieter.

I think though that through education, many, many more folks will get it right eventually. Knowledge is power after all. The internet (and sites like this one) helps with the information stream. Of course, it's a cesspit of good, bad and average information out there but still... it counts.

Not only the fact that success rate is increasing because of folks knowing more, but it is also the fact that obesity is so abhorred in society nowadays that obesity rates are now declining. In contrast, the rate of those diagnosed with eating disorders causing extreme thinness is on the increase. Wonder when we humans can ever find a balance in all that we do??

Obesity is down?
What a load of crap.

Obesity and T2D are so bad in the United States that they are starting to see teenagers with erectile disfunction.

Thats mother nature saying something.

stroutman81

Sure, most people will screw up VLCDs, as I mention in the original post.

Most people will screw up everything and anything, including the paint-by-numbers MFP approach, as evidenced by the endless parade of posts on these forums.

The dirty little secret in all of this is that anyone with the discipline and self control to succeed using the MFP method will be able to succeed using virtually *any* method. If you look at the MFP champs here, dollars to donuts you could force them to go VLCD and they would find a way to make it work in a nutritionally sound manner.

It's never about the specifics of the diet - it is *always* about the dieter.

PS To be clear, I am NOT advocating VLCD in any way shape or form.

This guy spews truth.

Stamped with approval.

CharNordie

Bump

Buddhasmiracle

bump

maybyn

Bump!

Yeah, it's pretty much about the dieter.

I think though that through education, many, many more folks will get it right eventually. Knowledge is power after all. The internet (and sites like this one) helps with the information stream. Of course, it's a cesspit of good, bad and average information out there but still... it counts.

Not only the fact that success rate is increasing because of folks knowing more, but it is also the fact that obesity is so abhorred in society nowadays that obesity rates are now declining. In contrast, the rate of those diagnosed with eating disorders causing extreme thinness is on the increase. Wonder when we humans can ever find a balance in all that we do??

Obesity is down?
What a load of crap.

Obesity and T2D are so bad in the United States that they are starting to see teenagers with erectile disfunction.

Thats mother nature saying something.

Can you not??!! I mean, why should I make that statement if it's a lot of crap. You're so offensive. Silly man.

Read this:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/06/childhood-obesity-preschoolers/2623909/

Helloitsdan

Bump!

Yeah, it's pretty much about the dieter.

I think though that through education, many, many more folks will get it right eventually. Knowledge is power after all. The internet (and sites like this one) helps with the information stream. Of course, it's a cesspit of good, bad and average information out there but still... it counts.

Not only the fact that success rate is increasing because of folks knowing more, but it is also the fact that obesity is so abhorred in society nowadays that obesity rates are now declining. In contrast, the rate of those diagnosed with eating disorders causing extreme thinness is on the increase. Wonder when we humans can ever find a balance in all that we do??

Obesity is down?
What a load of crap.

Obesity and T2D are so bad in the United States that they are starting to see teenagers with erectile disfunction.

Thats mother nature saying something.

Can you not??!! I mean, why should I make that statement if it's a lot of crap. You're so offensive. Silly man.

Read this:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/06/childhood-obesity-preschoolers/2623909/

Can I not what?

I live in Baltimore.
It's rated one of the fattest cities.
So if everyone is nice and lean in your corner of the world then thats great, but here......

_TastySnoBalls_

In.

tiptoethruthetulips

Saved for reading later

ab_1203

Great read. One thing Ive read is to have a day of eating over maintenance to raise leptin after being of VLCD for a bit, dont know how true it is though.

Dgangaware

Great post! Thank you!

adelainie

bump

bradXdale

Here's to continued learning!

Very good read but definitely something that I could never do or would suggest.

Helloitsdan

Great read. One thing Ive read is to have a day of eating over maintenance to raise leptin after being of VLCD for a bit, dont know how true it is though.

Somewhat true but depends really on the amount of fat on the body.
A great way to test your leptin sensitivity is to carb backload at night.
Start your day off with high quality proteins and fats with high fibre veg.
Lunch should be the same.
Fruit as a snack midday with some walnuts.
Dinner can be anything but shoot for the carbs and protein with some fats.
If you are sensitizing to leptin, you should see some scale movement in the AM.
Try sticking to no more than a 20% decrese in overall calories per week with 1 week off every 3-4 weeks to combat adaptation.

funnygirl0940

Oh good this is still an active thread and I really appreciate the op!!! I have a few questions for the op...read the first page and jumped to the last page.

(Bentonite Clay, Chlorophyll, and Spirulina with a temporary VLCD) From what you know and have experienced with this type of "fasting" on a short term, maybe 40 days max, will using spirulina(3-4 TBS) a day help keep one from losing their hair? I just like that spirulina is all natural as a whole food supplement. If it's better to send a pm, I'm more than happy to converse via pm. Thank you.

Helloitsdan

Oh good this is still an active thread and I really appreciate the op!!! I have a few questions for the op...read the first page and jumped to the last page.

(Bentonite Clay, Chlorophyll, and Spirulina with a temporary VLCD) From what you know and have experienced with this type of "fasting" on a short term, maybe 40 days max, will using spirulina(3-4 TBS) a day help keep one from losing their hair? I just like that spirulina is all natural as a whole food supplement. If it's better to send a pm, I'm more than happy to converse via pm. Thank you.

Terrible idea.

While all the above mentioned super foods have merit, your body will still rob amino acids to supply itself with energy.
Muscle maintenance in fat loss programs is the most important factor and should be held as top priority.
40 days VLCD you'd lose a considerable amount of muscle mass.

If you are they type who enjoys leisurely strolls on your scooter when you are 60+ because you didn't eat and workout correctly, go for it!
http://www.thescooterstore.com

DuckDynastyMakesMeLaugh

Bump

kdeanosu

bump

funnygirl0940

I also forgot to mention sock eye salmon along with the spirulina supplement. I just read that the vitamin b12 in spirulina isn't absorbable therefore sock eye salmon is a must adding the essential omegas the body needs for burning fat and protecting the heart and nervous system.

I found that the bentonite clay is fabulous for pulling out the toxins and candida which is cause for carb cravings. It can interfere with medications so be careful with that. Imagine, the real hunger curb is getting rid of candida overgrowth!!! The spirulina taken throughout the day keeps the blood sugar level up.

Helloitsdan

I also forgot to mention sock eye salmon along with the spirulina supplement. I just read that the vitamin b12 in spirulina isn't absorbable therefore sock eye salmon is a must adding the essential omegas the body needs for burning fat and protecting the heart and nervous system.

I found that the bentonite clay is fabulous for pulling out the toxins and candida which is cause for carb cravings. It can interfere with medications so be careful with that. Imagine, the real hunger curb is getting rid of candida overgrowth!!! The spirulina taken throughout the day keeps the blood sugar level up.

You haven't a clue what you are talking about......

You can detox by simply drinking water and slowly replacing processed food with more natural food.

funnygirl0940

You haven't a clue what you are talking about......

You can detox by simply drinking water and slowly replacing processed food with more natural food.

I don't know who you are nor why you are answering or commenting directly at me when my posts are aimed at the op stroutman81, who is knowledgeable and experienced. your general statement is incorrect. try not to mislead people.
You should check out medicinal clay for yourself, you'd be amazed at the results

Bounce2

Firstly ^^^^^^:laugh:

Secondly, after some of the posts I have been reading on the forums lately >>> BUMP

Helloitsdan

Oh good this is still an active thread and I really appreciate the op!!! I have a few questions for the op...read the first page and jumped to the last page.

(Bentonite Clay, Chlorophyll, and Spirulina with a temporary VLCD) From what you know and have experienced with this type of "fasting" on a short term, maybe 40 days max, will using spirulina(3-4 TBS) a day help keep one from losing their hair? I just like that spirulina is all natural as a whole food supplement. If it's better to send a pm, I'm more than happy to converse via pm. Thank you.

Again Terrible idea. Its not a personal "Attack". You are on an open forum where everyones opinion counts. If you ask a question like the one above, it opens you up to answers from everyone.
So looking at your question to the OP:

"(Bentonite Clay, Chlorophyll, and Spirulina with a temporary VLCD) From what you know and have experienced with this type of "fasting" on a short term, maybe 40 days max, will using spirulina(3-4 TBS) a day help keep one from losing their hair? I just like that spirulina is all natural as a whole food supplement."

In MY opinion, and i'm not a doctor, it's a terrible idea. If you are asking for your own personal needs as an adjunct to lose unwanted body fat, VLCD is the #1 way to add 3% more body fat within 1 years time with less lean muscle.

Now on the subject of spirulina, clay etc.....
If you live in a highly polluted area where you have several epigenetic altering factors, sure!
Look into my friend Dr Roland Thomas product at www.bioage.com.
Also check out University of Maryland's study on spiralina and its liver protective abilities.
I use the stuff for my cats food as well as my own supplementation.
Is it a magic pill?
No.
Is the clay magical?
No.
Figure out why you have colon issues in the first place and correct using VSL#3.
It's an actual food that will propagate the right bacteria so you won't have these toxins.
Could I make $1000s off you with claims from supplements?
Probably.

If you are looking to lose unwanted body fat, don't turn to pills and clay and all that crap!
Just eat a healthy balanced diet.
Drop grains.
Sleep more.
Get out into the sun and balance out Vitamin D.
Lift weights!

Do a consultation with Pam Killeen!
http://www.google.com/url?
www.pamkilleen.com
She will give you all the best advice for a small fee!
Or take my advice, for free, and forget all the above crap about VLCD!

OH! I got a PM from a long time trainee yesterday!

"Hi Dan

Thanks for all the supplement info. It is helping. I am dong the melatonin cycle starting at sundown and wow…. sleeping SO much better.

I also wanted to thank you for turning me on to the Pam Killeen. Her ancestral eating has really changed my life and I am getting sick less and less.

So… since you give such amazing advice…. "

Your best ticket to the fountain of youth and longevity is eating close to TDEE, sleeping 7-9hours a night, optimizing Vit D, and lifting weights.

PS: I've helped 1000s on this site lose fat and get strong and beautiful.

But what do I know....i'm just some judgmental jerk on MFP.....

Blue801

Bump for later

cwsreddy

VLCDs should ONLY be undergone under the DIRECT SUPERVISION OF A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL

the. end.

ugh.

Yanicka1

Bump.

funnygirl0940

In MY opinion, and i'm not a doctor

But what do I know....i'm just some judgmental jerk on MFP.....

enough said ;0)

funnygirl0940

VLCDs should ONLY be undergone under the DIRECT SUPERVISION OF A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL

the. end.

ugh.

totally AGREE!!!!

caroldavison332

I don’t understand some things you said, partially because you are using terms I am unfamiliar with. Please respond to my questions printed in ALL CAPS. Sorry, I’m not shouting, I just don’t know of any other way to distinguish them. Especially because I am not hungry and eat 1200 calories only because MFP tells me that I am going into starvation mode. I have no interest in starving myself but it seems silly to eat when I am not hungry. I weight 235 and want to weigh 150, and walk 2.6 miles and 14 staircases daily. Thank you for your consideration.

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE IF ITS THE VLCD OR ITS EFFECT THAT LEADS TO THE SLOWDOWN? ISN'T IT THE SAME THING?

“Leptin lets out bodies know that it's fed. So if we have less fat, we have less Leptin.” WHY WOULD THIS BE? “If we have less Leptin, we have less of a "fed" signal to the brain. If we have less of a fed signal, the body responds accordingly with the slowdown in RMR (and some other adaptations).” IT SEEMS TO ME IT SHOULD BE THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

But the logical question you should be asking is, "Won't smaller or normal deficits WHATS A DEFICIT? also cause a loss in fat? And won't that loss in fat lead to the same sort of negative adaptations?" And the answer is yes. It's just that the VLCD will cause these adaptations to happen faster... but you'll also lose fat faster. Follow me?
In the thread that was deleted last night, I spoke of the Minnesota Starvation Experiment ran by Ancel Keys, which took already relatively lean men and locked them down in the lab where they were given 50% of their calorie needs for half of a year. They also had supervised exercise ever day if memory serves me correct. We know that lean people will react faster (in terms of metabolic slowdown) to big energy deficits than fat people will. Which makes sense.... fat bodies don't "think" they're starving as quickly since they have all of this excess energy in storage, right? IT SEEMS TO ME IT WOULD BE THE OTHER WAY AROUND. DON”T FAT PEOPLE LOOSE A LOT OF WEIGHT QUICKLY IN THE BEGINNING OF DIETS? PLEASE EXPLAIN.

But even with the test subjects in this experiment being lean to start, after the 6 month period, they only experienced a slowdown in RMR of 15% or so. I mean “total energy expenditure dropped by 40% or so, but the remaining 25% (above the 15%)” PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT THIS MEANS was due to the loss in weight (tissue costs something to maintain and a bigger body is more expensive to move around). Everyone knows that as weight is lost, calorie needs go down.
“The "starvation mode" totaled 15%” WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? after half a year of low calorie dieting. And that's the primary point... life requires energy expenditure. And metabolism can be thought of as our total energy expenditure in this case. Even if there is “negative adaptation to low calorie dieting,” WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? metabolism can only drop so far... there's a minimum threshold that's required to keep your heart beating, to fuel respiration, power the brain, transport nutrients, digest food, etc, etc.

I also posted a few links to more current research.... one paper compared a 25% deficit WHAT IS A DEFICT? to a 890 calorie intake. The low calorie intake lost more weight than the 25% group. Yes, they had a metabolic slowdown... but so did the 25% group, which corresponds to what I said above about big and small deficits.

There's a lot more that I could say on the topic. For example, NEAT (non-exercise activity thermogenesis) WHAT IS NEAT? is turning out to play a substantial role in the reduction in total daily energy expenditure experienced on prolonged diets... big or small deficits. WHAT DOES THE PREVIOUS SENTENCE MEAN? Which only stands to solidify the importance of exercise while dieting. NEAT drops unconsciously... so we counteract that by doing more activity consciously via structured exercise. But we won't dive into that end of things as this is already far too long.