My response to people that say humans HAVE to eat meat...

Cycl0tr0n

I'm going to jump in here briefly. I apologize if I'm reiterating -- I haven't yet read through the whole thread.

I don't think we *have* to eat meat -- not by any means -- and I would agree that many Americans eat too much meat, especially too much meat from animals raised on problematic feeds (grain-feed beef, for example: bovines are optimized for grazing) and in unsanitary and inhumane conditions. Likewise, most nutritional scientists (as opposed to proprietors of fad diets) would probably agree that it is perfectly possible to be healthy on a meat-free diet.

That said, the human animal is also not designed to be an herbivore (which I mention solely because it's the most-overused and worst argument in favor of vegetarianism out there: isn't compassion argument enough, without having to fall back on pseudoscience?). Regardless of the argument some would make, neither our teeth nor our guts are typical of herbivorous species. Rather, our teeth and digestive tracts are more closely akin to those found in other omnivorous species such as hogs or canids (meanwhile, they are just as disparate from those of obligate carnivores such as cats as they are from those of true herbivores). If you take a look at the teeth and digestive tracts of ruminants (such as cows), non-ruminant herbivores (horses), humans, wolves, and cats, you'll see what I mean. There's a sort of continuum from 'really well adapted for eating plants' to 'not adapted for eating plants at all.'

This doesn't mean that we can't be healthy without meat -- indeed, eggs are an optimal source of protein for humans, and lacto-ovo vegetarians eat them, and most (not all) of our essential nutrients can be easily obtained from plant sources.

Meanwhile, it's not impossible to be a healthy vegan -- I've known vegans who were doing it wrong and vegans who were doing it right; one group tends to be skinny and unhealthy and the other skinny and very healthy. A truly vegan diet requires both careful planning and preparation and at least some degree of supplementation (B12, in particular, is not readily available from plant sources), but can be adequate for the needs of most people.

VegesaurusRex

You are right. I don't HAVE to eat meat. Neither do I HAVE to be a vegetarian in order to live a healthy, productive, active lifestyle.

Can you cite your sources for your information? I'd love to know where you got it.

I don't know if you are talking to me, but if you are here are some for starters:

http://www.healingcancernaturally.com/vegetarians-live-longer.html

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/nutrition-advice-from-the-china-study/

http://www.framinghamheartstudy.org/about/history.html

ironanimal

I have come to a conclusion after reading 4 pages of this thread.

1. Eat meat. You won't die to death because of it.
2. If you don't want to eat meat, don't. Us meat-eaters don't care and won't preach.
3. VegesaurusRex should be working as a stand up comedian. Their self-righteous, thou hast the holiest *kitten* attitude, is beyond hilarious.

Indy_Mario

I have come to a conclusion after reading 4 pages of this thread.

1. Eat meat. You won't die to death because of it.
2. If you don't want to eat meat, don't. Us meat-eaters don't care and won't preach.
3. VegesaurusRex should be working as a stand up comedian. Their self-righteous, thou hast the holiest *kitten* attitude, is beyond hilarious.

*kitten* man, you must be working for the man to bring us all down.
Your way of thinking just doesn't make sense! How can you ask people to eat what they want. That's got to be some reverse psychology crap...

Missaeriel

Smartest response on this entire thread!

AmberXenon

By grandfather had stomach cancer about 30 years ago. My grandmother immediately put him on a strict vegetarian diet the moment he recovered. He's had severe issues since then,and just this past week was in the hospital because his hemoglobin levels were half of what they should be.

Doctor recommended he add red meat to his diet.

_VoV

I don't find this to be a discussion. It's an arguement with one person basically telling everyone we are going to die and he is sick of paying our bills. I assure you, nobody here other than me and my employer pays for my healthcare.

Some people are coming in with sound bites. You are right. That isn't discussion. But, I'm reading longer, more interesting posts and enjoying them.

I understand why you see the healthcare cost issue in the microcosmic way you do. It helps to see it from the bigger-picture point of view--how much of our collective economy goes towards healthcare--whether from private or public payers.

brearune

I am a vegetarian that happens to disagree with you. People are made to eat meat, they're omnivores.

Factory farming and CAFOs? THAT'S another story...




Why must vegetarians/ vegans be so preachy?

EXCELLENT. Thank youuu for saying this.

VegesaurusRex

The way you speak here makes me shudder. Seriosuly. I believe Karma will give you Parkinsons way more than eating meat or fish will. Be careful what you put out to the universe while you preach to strangers about what they eat. I would love to show you my lab numbers. They're ridiculous. My husband jokes that I need to eat cholesterol mine is so good.

Well, my cholesterol has varried from 110 to 125 over the past ten years or so.

If you want to talk karma, why not think of what you have done the next time you sit down as a meal and there is the flesh of a dead animal on your plate, an animal that would not have been killed if you and other had not been willing to buy its corpse. Once you have looked at your karma in that situation then you can talk to me about karma.

The reality of scarce medical resources is not based on what I think or do, it is based on the fact that this country has a population that is massively obese, diabetic, and in dire need of changing what we eat. I see no reason in the world why I should have to pay for your colon cancer, if you knowingly eat a diet that will cause you to get colon cancer. If I abused drugs, would you be willing to pay for my complete medical and therapeutic care while I recovered? If yes, then I guess you won mind paying 90% in income taxes.

sizzle92

I agree, there are some interesting points here. I guess I'll just try to ignore the ignorant ones. I have opinions on what/who causes me to pay for their healthcare and why, but I won't be discussing that. lol

Cycl0tr0n

One more point: what works for one person might not work for another.

I have, in the past, been both vegetarian and vegan. Even with careful attention paid to nutrition and appropriate supplementation, I did not find a vegan diet to be a cure for all that ails me -- in fact, it was quite the opposite.

I do best on an omnivorous diet comprised primarily of fresh veggies and fruit with dairy, eggs, and some meat (yes, I consider fish to be meat) in the mix. I don't do well on grains. (If you look at my food diary, you'll notice I'm not following that particular path very well right now -- but that's my own fault, and doesn't negate the point ).

Others do better with more grains in the mix, or more starchy roots (potatoes, etc.), or without dairy, or...

In nutrition, beyond some basics, there are no really universal answers that work for absolutely everyone. To some extent, it's not a bad idea to experiment a bit and figure out what works best for you.

_VoV

I'm going to jump in here briefly. I apologize if I'm reiterating -- I haven't yet read through the whole thread.

I don't think we *have* to eat meat -- not by any means -- and I would agree that many Americans eat too much meat, especially too much meat from animals raised on problematic feeds (grain-feed beef, for example: bovines are optimized for grazing) and in unsanitary and inhumane conditions. Likewise, most nutritional scientists (as opposed to proprietors of fad diets) would probably agree that it is perfectly possible to be healthy on a meat-free diet.

That said, the human animal is also not designed to be an herbivore (which I mention solely because it's the most-overused and worst argument in favor of vegetarianism out there: isn't compassion argument enough, without having to fall back on pseudoscience?). Regardless of the argument some would make, neither our teeth nor our guts are typical of herbivorous species. Rather, our teeth and digestive tracts are more closely akin to those found in other omnivorous species such as hogs or canids (meanwhile, they are just as disparate from those of obligate carnivores such as cats as they are from those of true herbivores). If you take a look at the teeth and digestive tracts of ruminants (such as cows), non-ruminant herbivores (horses), humans, wolves, and cats, you'll see what I mean. There's a sort of continuum from 'really well adapted for eating plants' to 'not adapted for eating plants at all.'

This doesn't mean that we can't be healthy without meat -- indeed, eggs are an optimal source of protein for humans, and lacto-ovo vegetarians eat them, and most (not all) of our essential nutrients can be easily obtained from plant sources.

Meanwhile, it's not impossible to be a healthy vegan -- I've known vegans who were doing it wrong and vegans who were doing it right; one group tends to be skinny and unhealthy and the other skinny and very healthy. A truly vegan diet requires both careful planning and preparation and at least some degree of supplementation (B12, in particular, is not readily available from plant sources), but can be adequate for the needs of most people.

Interesting post. I mostly agree. But, while most vegans statistically have BMI's lower that a matched non-vegan population, there are fat vegans, who enjoy their food too much because it tastes so darn good. Ask me how I KNOW that!

VegesaurusRex

I have come to a conclusion after reading 4 pages of this thread.

1. Eat meat. You won't die to death because of it.
2. If you don't want to eat meat, don't. Us meat-eaters don't care and won't preach.
3. VegesaurusRex should be working as a stand up comedian. Their self-righteous, thou hast the holiest *kitten* attitude, is beyond hilarious.

It seems to have gotten under your skin. Wazza matta, too close to the truth?

sizzle92

Sorry, but nothing you can say will make me feel that I have bad karma for eating an animal. God made us top of the food chain for a reason.

Cycl0tr0n

@Sizzle92: I'm beginning to think that the secret to a happy and well-balanced life is learning to ignore the ignorant and extreme opinions (no matter which side they're on)! Now and then, someone manages to be both astute and extreme, and those are the voices that become big wake-up calls for everyone ... but for the most part, it looks like the more moderate folks generally have their ducks in a row.

Indy_Mario

That dinosaur guy must've blocked me.
Maybe calling him out on his ignorance is a good way to proceed.

_VoV

I agree, there are some interesting points here. I guess I'll just try to ignore the ignorant ones. I have opinions on what/who causes me to pay for their healthcare and why, but I won't be discussing that. lol

There's always the ignore feature if someone is interfering with your enjoyment of the thread, which I think is quite interesting!

VegesaurusRex

Sorry, but nothing you can say will make me feel that I have bad karma for eating an animal. God made us top of the food chain for a reason.

I would have thought he gave us a brain and a sense of compassion for a reason too.

sizzle92

Wazza matta...........................

Not that you had a leg to stand on with me in the first place, but now? I could never take you seriously or think you are capable of having an intelligent conversation at all.

goingmodern

I'm not vegetarian but my plan is to switch to humanely raised animal food (caged free chicken, grass-fed cows, etc).
I think it's admirable to be a vegetarian or vegan for ethic purposes.
My DH told me yesterday that is boss just decided to become vegetarian. I asked why and apparently it's because he thinks he's too fat. So, in his mind, it's his weight loss solution. *facepalm* to that!
I agree that vegetarian-vegans might have less health issues related to their non-consumption of greasy fatty meat. However,
a lot of them tend to eat too much soy products and that messes up their estrogen levels = infertility problems, low sperm count, thyroid problems...

Not to mention obesity due to high intake of carbs and sugar ... leading to the same medical problems that overweight meat-eaters face. Huh ... imagine that!

sizzle92

Sorry, but nothing you can say will make me feel that I have bad karma for eating an animal. God made us top of the food chain for a reason.

I would have thought he gave us a brain and a sense of compassion for a reason too.

I have compassion for animals. I would never ever eat my cats.

MaximalLife

That dinosaur guy must've blocked me.
Maybe calling him out on his ignorance is a good way to proceed.

Usually when the light of truth shines, dishonesty, like roaches who love darkness, run for the dusky cracks where they dwell in a joyless state of dastardliness.

They need meat!:drinker:

VegesaurusRex

Sorry, but nothing you can say will make me feel that I have bad karma for eating an animal. God made us top of the food chain for a reason.

I would have thought he gave us a brain and a sense of compassion for a reason too.

I have compassion for animals. I would never ever eat my cats.

What is the difference between a cat and a cow?

fteale

This is interesting. I have a degree in anthropology and one of the interesting facts about humans is that for most of our (anotomically human) history we did subsist largely on fruits, nuts, grains, etc. Meat was a 'luxury' and hard to come by (50,000 years ago there were no supermarkets, just you and the wild. What's easier, foraging for some grains and nuts that will quickly fill you up, or risk your life hunting an animal that could very well kill you?)

Additionally, the human digestive tract is long, which suggests that it was not intended for continuous digestion of animal protein (compare our digestive tract to that of a known carnivore, such as a lion, and you will see the difference immediately). I am a vegetarian myself, but largely for ethical reasons. But I will take the health benefits as well! Vegetarian diets have long been recognized to be a healthy alternative to a diet consisting largely of animal protein.

This is not to say that eating meat is contrary to "human nature," or that it is consistent with it - whatever that means (people argue both sides of this, believe it or not). But it does mean that our evolutionary history makes a vegetarian (or mostly vegetarian) diet very compatible with a healthy lifestyle.

The post below regarding our incisors being evidence of us being 'meat eaters' can easily be refuted, since incisors are remnants of our primate origins, not indicative of homo sapiens' eating patterns, per se (discussing our eating patterns 3 - 6 million years ago vs. 100,000 will yield very different conclusions!). In fact, most of our current teeth (and our chewing patterns) point to a style of eating consistent with grinding (lots of low flat teeth) usually associated with the breakdown of grains, nuts, legumes, etc., not with the tearing of flesh.

In the end, we are human and we have a choice in what we eat, so any argument suggesting that one way of eating is 'right' will have its opponents and proponents. I'm a vegetarian because I know that it isn't necessary to kill animals to survive and I believe that if you can minimize suffering in any capacity, you should. That is my philosophy on eating, but I also understand not every one shares that sentiment - and I don't base whether I eat meat or not on whether or not we have incisors or a short digestive tract either. Like all humans, I eat based on what I believe it is appropriate to eat in my social context. Whew!

I agree with everything you say. You are very precise. I would add that what you said extends to our homo and Australopithicene ancestors except possibly for homo sapiens neanderthalensis (or if you prefer, homo neandderthalensis). So this is going back at least one million years or possibly much longer.

I absolutely agree, and having also done a degree in human evolution (from an archaeology background rather than anthropology, but with a lot of anth and biology modules), I have found everything you say to be true from the research I have done.

daverj1973

"What is the difference between a cat and a cow? "



A whole lot of calories

StevLL

So who are you rooting for today? Pat's hot dogs, or Giants veggie burgers?

_VoV

One more point: what works for one person might not work for another.

I have, in the past, been both vegetarian and vegan. Even with careful attention paid to nutrition and appropriate supplementation, I did not find a vegan diet to be a cure for all that ails me -- in fact, it was quite the opposite.

I do best on an omnivorous diet comprised primarily of fresh veggies and fruit with dairy, eggs, and some meat (yes, I consider fish to be meat) in the mix. I don't do well on grains. (If you look at my food diary, you'll notice I'm not following that particular path very well right now -- but that's my own fault, and doesn't negate the point ).

Others do better with more grains in the mix, or more starchy roots (potatoes, etc.), or without dairy, or...

In nutrition, beyond some basics, there are no really universal answers that work for absolutely everyone. To some extent, it's not a bad idea to experiment a bit and figure out what works best for you.

For me, veganism is an ethic that goes beyond what I eat to include clothes, cleaning products, cosmetics, etc.

In my case, veganism allows me to enjoy vibrant good health. I can't say that the road not taken would have brought me the same results, or not. But, with that said, I would still continue to be vegan even if it shortened my life or wasn't quite as healthy as another diet. Precisely because my desire is to live to reduce suffering whenever that is possible.

Whinchat

We're not top of the food chain - we're just a tasty meal for the billions of bacteria hanging out inside of us at this moment (there's more bacteria inside of us than there is human cells - scary thought :noway: )....or the billions more who'll chow down once we're dead....and mustn't forget various parasites and fungi that'd make a meal of us given a half chance.

Nope, definitely not top of the food chain. :laugh:

sizzle92

Sorry, but nothing you can say will make me feel that I have bad karma for eating an animal. God made us top of the food chain for a reason.

I would have thought he gave us a brain and a sense of compassion for a reason too.

I have compassion for animals. I would never ever eat my cats.

What is the difference between a cat and a cow?

Can't really say. Must be something in that brain that God gave me that just tells me not to eat them and eat a cow instead? I'm sure they taste disgusting anyway. *shrug*

Indy_Mario

That dinosaur guy must've blocked me.
Maybe calling him out on his ignorance is a good way to proceed.

Usually when the light of truth shines, dishonesty, like roaches who love darkness, run for the dusky cracks where they dwell in a joyless state of dastardliness.

They need meat!:drinker:

His knowledge of third world countries and their dietary intakes must have been from his spring break back in the 50s.
His "knowledge" has been debunked about 10 pages back. He's still fighting. He must be part of the feline family, evolutionary speaking, maybe a puss...?