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My response to people that say humans HAVE to eat meat...
Replies
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@VegesaurusRex
Still avoiding...Oversimplistic either/or views of carnivorous adaptations. The various comparative "proofs" of vegetarianism often rely heavily on comparisons with true carnivores, e.g., lions, tigers, etc. The basic arguments made are that meat cannot be a "natural" food for humans, because humans don't have the same physical features characteristic of the small group of animals that are considered to be "true" carnivores. However, such arguments are based on an oversimplified and flawed view of adaptation; that is, the underlying assumption being that there is only one--or at least one main set of--physical adaptation(s) consistent with eating meat. Such arguments also ignore the high intelligence and adaptive behavior of humans.
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Logical problems of the comparative proofs
The above physical comparisons are accurate--clearly, humans do not have the jaws, teeth, or claws of a lion. However, to use this information to conclude that humans "cannot" eat meat, or "must have" the same physical traits as other predators to do so, or did not adapt to meat in the diet, is logically invalid and bogus. A short list of errors in reaching the above conclusion is as follows:
Focusing on purely carnivorous adaptations rather than omnivorous ones. One clarification should be made immediately: This paper does not suggest that humans are true carnivores adapted for a nearly pure-meat diet. Although it may be that humans might be able to do well on such a diet (e.g., the traditional diet of the Inuit), the focus of this paper is to investigate whether meat can be considered a natural part of the human diet--certainly the paleoanthropological evidence supports that view. Thus the focus here is not on the bogus issue "are humans pure carnivores?" but on "are humans faunivores/omnivores?"
Invalid black-and-white views. The conclusion above (that meat "cannot" be a natural part of the human diet) is based on a simplistic (incomplete/invalid) view of adaptation. That is, the conclusion is based on the implicit assumption that the specific physical adaptations of the lion, tiger, etc., are the ONLY adaptations that can serve their intended function, i.e., meat-eating. Inasmuch as meat is a small but significant part of the diet of chimps, however--who also lack the carnivore adaptations (sharp teeth, claws, etc.)--we observe that the assumption is obviously false.
Various oversimplistic assumptions. The analysis is simplistic and makes many of the mistakes listed in the preceding section--i.e., it assumes the form/function linkage is strict, fails to recognize that the same form can serve multiple functions, etc.
Overlooked differences in adaptive behavior. The analysis ignores critical differences in feeding behavior, i.e., the ones relating to the hunting/feeding behavior of omnivorous primates (e.g., the chimp) in the wild, which is well-known to be different from that of lions and tigers. Also, adaptive behavior (enhanced via human intelligence and technology--tools) allows humans to easily overcome many of the physical limitations of our physical form and morphology.
Impact of tool use and language on morphology disregarded. The analysis ignores the impact that human intelligence has had on morphology, specifically the evolutionary effect of technology (stone tools and cooking), as well as possible morphological changes to support language--yet another unique human feature.
Obvious explanations rationalized away as "illegitimate." A simple, summary answer to the question of how humans can hunt animals and eat meat without the physical adaptations of the lion and tiger is the obvious one implicitly ignored and rationalized by the advocates of simplistic comparative "proofs": We don't need sharp teeth, powerful jaws, or claws to capture and butcher animals because we have used (since our inception as a genus ~2.5 million years ago) tools (or technology--stone weapons) for that purpose. Over the eons, evolution itself has adapted our physiologies to the results of this behavior along unique lines, quite regardless of the hue and cry over the "illegitimacy" with which these behaviors/skills are regarded by those extremists promoting the bizarre idea that human dietary behavior should be strictly limited to what we could do "naked, without tools."
Technology, driven by our intelligence, supports adaptive behavior that allows us to easily overcome the physical limitations that the comparative "proofs" regard (incorrectly) as being limiting factors. Along similar lines, we don't need the strong bodies of a lion or tiger because we have something much more powerful: high intelligence, which allowed humans to become the most efficient hunters, and the dominant mammalian species, on the planet.
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-6a.shtml
I have ignored this every time you have posted this. It is just crap. You might as well cite an opinion piece in the National Inquirer as proof.0 -
Cancer developes mainly from freezing or reheating food in plastic containers, and also from burnt food... which could also apply to a vegetarian bbq, so you are as likely to die of cancer as any other person is!!
:laugh: So true! People are so caught up in the diet that they forget about the other, more potent, carcinogens.0 -
@VegesaurusRex
Still avoiding...Oversimplistic either/or views of carnivorous adaptations. The various comparative "proofs" of vegetarianism often rely heavily on comparisons with true carnivores, e.g., lions, tigers, etc. The basic arguments made are that meat cannot be a "natural" food for humans, because humans don't have the same physical features characteristic of the small group of animals that are considered to be "true" carnivores. However, such arguments are based on an oversimplified and flawed view of adaptation; that is, the underlying assumption being that there is only one--or at least one main set of--physical adaptation(s) consistent with eating meat. Such arguments also ignore the high intelligence and adaptive behavior of humans.
...
Logical problems of the comparative proofs
The above physical comparisons are accurate--clearly, humans do not have the jaws, teeth, or claws of a lion. However, to use this information to conclude that humans "cannot" eat meat, or "must have" the same physical traits as other predators to do so, or did not adapt to meat in the diet, is logically invalid and bogus. A short list of errors in reaching the above conclusion is as follows:
Focusing on purely carnivorous adaptations rather than omnivorous ones. One clarification should be made immediately: This paper does not suggest that humans are true carnivores adapted for a nearly pure-meat diet. Although it may be that humans might be able to do well on such a diet (e.g., the traditional diet of the Inuit), the focus of this paper is to investigate whether meat can be considered a natural part of the human diet--certainly the paleoanthropological evidence supports that view. Thus the focus here is not on the bogus issue "are humans pure carnivores?" but on "are humans faunivores/omnivores?"
Invalid black-and-white views. The conclusion above (that meat "cannot" be a natural part of the human diet) is based on a simplistic (incomplete/invalid) view of adaptation. That is, the conclusion is based on the implicit assumption that the specific physical adaptations of the lion, tiger, etc., are the ONLY adaptations that can serve their intended function, i.e., meat-eating. Inasmuch as meat is a small but significant part of the diet of chimps, however--who also lack the carnivore adaptations (sharp teeth, claws, etc.)--we observe that the assumption is obviously false.
Various oversimplistic assumptions. The analysis is simplistic and makes many of the mistakes listed in the preceding section--i.e., it assumes the form/function linkage is strict, fails to recognize that the same form can serve multiple functions, etc.
Overlooked differences in adaptive behavior. The analysis ignores critical differences in feeding behavior, i.e., the ones relating to the hunting/feeding behavior of omnivorous primates (e.g., the chimp) in the wild, which is well-known to be different from that of lions and tigers. Also, adaptive behavior (enhanced via human intelligence and technology--tools) allows humans to easily overcome many of the physical limitations of our physical form and morphology.
Impact of tool use and language on morphology disregarded. The analysis ignores the impact that human intelligence has had on morphology, specifically the evolutionary effect of technology (stone tools and cooking), as well as possible morphological changes to support language--yet another unique human feature.
Obvious explanations rationalized away as "illegitimate." A simple, summary answer to the question of how humans can hunt animals and eat meat without the physical adaptations of the lion and tiger is the obvious one implicitly ignored and rationalized by the advocates of simplistic comparative "proofs": We don't need sharp teeth, powerful jaws, or claws to capture and butcher animals because we have used (since our inception as a genus ~2.5 million years ago) tools (or technology--stone weapons) for that purpose. Over the eons, evolution itself has adapted our physiologies to the results of this behavior along unique lines, quite regardless of the hue and cry over the "illegitimacy" with which these behaviors/skills are regarded by those extremists promoting the bizarre idea that human dietary behavior should be strictly limited to what we could do "naked, without tools."
Technology, driven by our intelligence, supports adaptive behavior that allows us to easily overcome the physical limitations that the comparative "proofs" regard (incorrectly) as being limiting factors. Along similar lines, we don't need the strong bodies of a lion or tiger because we have something much more powerful: high intelligence, which allowed humans to become the most efficient hunters, and the dominant mammalian species, on the planet.
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-6a.shtml
I have ignored this every time you have posted this. It is just crap. You might as well cite an opinion piece in the National Inquirer as proof.
It isn't really an opinion piece when it is permeated with sources and citations. Perhaps you should go to the linked page and look at the constant parenthetical citations?0 -
It isn't really an opinion piece when it is permeated with sources and citations. Perhaps you should go to the linked page and look at the constant parenthetical citations?
But why would he do that when he's already an expert on every journal and every method of everything EVER?!0 -
It isn't really an opinion piece when it is permeated with sources and citations. Perhaps you should go to the linked page and look at the constant parenthetical citations?
But why would he do that when he's already an expert on every journal and every method of everything EVER?!
Oh no! My mistake! Bad Turtle, thinking people can learn something new. >.<0 -
It isn't really an opinion piece when it is permeated with sources and citations. Perhaps you should go to the linked page and look at the constant parenthetical citations?
But why would he do that when he's already an expert on every journal and every method of everything EVER?!
Oh no! My mistake! Bad Turtle, thinking people can learn something new. >.<
What's that they say about old dogs and new tricks?
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I haven't had more than a minor sore throat or a tiny stomach bug in about 2 or 3 years. I am of a normal healthy weight. I work out. My cholesterol is "excellent" as well as my blood pressure, iron levels and all of that. I am unfortunately a type one diabetic.
But I eat meat and dairy every day. The only thing is...I eat it in MODERATION and I know where most of my meat comes from. I rarely eat fast food (once a month, maybe) and dine out about as much. The key to a healthy diet is to eat a variety of food, try to avoid things that are over processed and don't over do it. It's that simple.0 -
I have ignored this every time you have posted this. It is just crap. You might as well cite an opinion piece in the National Inquirer as proof.
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http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-refs1b.shtm
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-refs1a.shtml0 -
It's all , carbon, hydrogen , nitrogen and oxygen in my view , people can decide whatever they want to eat.0
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We aren't carnivores. We're OMNIVORES.
Define OMNIVORE in a way that it cannot mean either a tiger or a mouse.
What? :huh:
Mice can be omnivorous.... tiger's aren't.
I'm not sure what you even mean.
Are you saying tigers can't eat berries? Please be very precise because I would have to bring in a bunch of studies to show you don't know what you are talking about based on a misunderstanding.
Also, why don't you address Dr Roberts defintiion of herbivore. I respect his definition far more than that of a 3/4 Ph.D. who apparently has no idea how to cite articles defending her position.
I will tell you my point up front. If your defintion of "omnivore" is so vague as to include every member of Animalia, then it is totally useless. I gave you several cites and precise definitions. I told you physiologically what the difference beween a carnivore and a herbivore is. You have given me nothing so far except your ex cathedra statements. I am not interested in arguing with the Pope. I want scientic answers, not opinions.0 -
I have ignored this every time you have posted this. It is just crap. You might as well cite an opinion piece in the National Inquirer as proof.
Really?John McArdle, Ph.D., an anatomist and primatologist, a vegetarian, and scientific advisor to the American Anti-Vivisection Society, summarizes the situation clearly [McArdle 1996, p. 174]:Agren JJ, Tormala ML, Nenonen MT, Hanninen OO (1995) "Fatty acid composition of erythrocyte, platelet, and serum lipids in strict vegans." Lipids, vol. 30, pp. 365-369.
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http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-refs1b.shtm
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-refs1a.shtml
Winning!0 -
This is interesting. I have a degree in anthropology and one of the interesting facts about humans is that for most of our (anotomically human) history we did subsist largely on fruits, nuts, grains, etc. Meat was a 'luxury' and hard to come by (50,000 years ago there were no supermarkets, just you and the wild. What's easier, foraging for some grains and nuts that will quickly fill you up, or risk your life hunting an animal that could very well kill you?)
Additionally, the human digestive tract is long, which suggests that it was not intended for continuous digestion of animal protein (compare our digestive tract to that of a known carnivore, such as a lion, and you will see the difference immediately). I am a vegetarian myself, but largely for ethical reasons. But I will take the health benefits as well! Vegetarian diets have long been recognized to be a healthy alternative to a diet consisting largely of animal protein.
This is not to say that eating meat is contrary to "human nature," or that it is consistent with it - whatever that means (people argue both sides of this, believe it or not). But it does mean that our evolutionary history makes a vegetarian (or mostly vegetarian) diet very compatible with a healthy lifestyle.
The post below regarding our incisors being evidence of us being 'meat eaters' can easily be refuted, since incisors are remnants of our primate origins, not indicative of homo sapiens' eating patterns, per se (discussing our eating patterns 3 - 6 million years ago vs. 100,000 will yield very different conclusions!). In fact, most of our current teeth (and our chewing patterns) point to a style of eating consistent with grinding (lots of low flat teeth) usually associated with the breakdown of grains, nuts, legumes, etc., not with the tearing of flesh.
In the end, we are human and we have a choice in what we eat, so any argument suggesting that one way of eating is 'right' will have its opponents and proponents. I'm a vegetarian because I know that it isn't necessary to kill animals to survive and I believe that if you can minimize suffering in any capacity, you should. That is my philosophy on eating, but I also understand not every one shares that sentiment - and I don't base whether I eat meat or not on whether or not we have incisors or a short digestive tract either. Like all humans, I eat based on what I believe it is appropriate to eat in my social context. Whew!0 -
This is interesting. I have a degree in anthropology and one of the interesting facts about humans is that for most of our (anotomically human) history we did subsist largely on fruits, nuts, grains, etc. Meat was a 'luxury' and hard to come by (50,000 years ago there were no supermarkets, just you and the wild. What's easier, foraging for some grains and nuts that will quickly fill you up, or risk your life hunting an animal that could very well kill you?)
Additionally, the human digestive tract is long, which suggests that it was not intended for continuous digestion of animal protein (compare our digestive tract to that of a known carnivore, such as a lion, and you will see the difference immediately). I am a vegetarian myself, but largely for ethical reasons. But I will take the health benefits as well! Vegetarian diets have long been recognized to be a healthy alternative to a diet consisting largely of animal protein.
This is not to say that eating meat is contrary to "human nature," or that it is consistent with it - whatever that means (people argue both sides of this, believe it or not). But it does mean that our evolutionary history makes a vegetarian (or mostly vegetarian) diet very compatible with a healthy lifestyle.
The post below regarding our incisors being evidence of us being 'meat eaters' can easily be refuted, since incisors are remnants of our primate origins, not indicative of homo sapiens' eating patterns, per se (discussing our eating patterns 3 - 6 million years ago vs. 100,000 will yield very different conclusions!). In fact, most of our current teeth (and our chewing patterns) point to a style of eating consistent with grinding (lots of low flat teeth) usually associated with the breakdown of grains, nuts, legumes, etc., not with the tearing of flesh.
In the end, we are human and we have a choice in what we eat, so any argument suggesting that one way of eating is 'right' will have its opponents and proponents. I'm a vegetarian because I know that it isn't necessary to kill animals to survive and I believe that if you can minimize suffering in any capacity, you should. That is my philosophy on eating, but I also understand not every one shares that sentiment - and I don't base whether I eat meat or not on whether or not we have incisors or a short digestive tract either. Like all humans, I eat based on what I believe it is appropriate to eat in my social context. Whew!
I agree with everything you say. You are very precise. I would add that what you said extends to our homo and Australopithicene ancestors except possibly for homo sapiens neanderthalensis (or if you prefer, homo neandderthalensis). So this is going back at least one million years or possibly much longer.0 -
can some of you peeps learn to crop quotes.0
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bump0
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I LOVE YOU RON SWANSON!0
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I have ignored this every time you have posted this. It is just crap. You might as well cite an opinion piece in the National Inquirer as proof.
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http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-refs1a.shtml
Winning!
Winning what? Proof that you can cite bibliographies out of an on line course syllibus? Okay, you give me the proper citation, with page number for everything that is precisely relevant to what you want to prove.. Oh, yes, and again for the one hundreth time WHAT IS YOUR POINT. WHAT ARE YOU CLAIMING. You still haven't gotten to square one.0 -
We aren't carnivores. We're OMNIVORES.
Define OMNIVORE in a way that it cannot mean either a tiger or a mouse.
What? :huh:
Mice can be omnivorous.... tiger's aren't.
I'm not sure what you even mean.
Are you saying tigers can't eat berries? Please be very precise because I would have to bring in a bunch of studies to show you don't know what you are talking about based on a misunderstanding.
Also, why don't you address Dr Roberts defintiion of herbivore. I respect his definition far more than that of a 3/4 Ph.D. who apparently has no idea how to cite articles defending her position.
I will tell you my point up front. If your defintion of "omnivore" is so vague as to include every member of Animalia, then it is totally useless. I gave you several cites and precise definitions. I told you physiologically what the difference beween a carnivore and a herbivore is. You have given me nothing so far except your ex cathedra statements. I am not interested in arguing with the Pope. I want scientic answers, not opinions.
If you are saying tigers are able to eat berries then you are wrong. Tigers cannot eat berries. If you fed cats a vegan or vegetarian diet they will get sick and die a horrible death. Cats cannot produce the amino acid taurine on their own, the only way they can get this amino acid is in meat. Omnivores which is us, pigs, dogs are able to make this amino acid with a balance diet that includes animal by produce. Cats can't live off just animal by product it has to be pure meat because of this amino acid. This is why they are a true carnivore since no meat for a cat equals death.0 -
Indeed. The majority of Western civilization still eats meat. The fact that you don't doesn't make you any more civilized.Yeah, well, I guess that is the difference between living in a civilized place and living in a jungle.0 -
I am extremely health concious from the point that I want to know exactly where my meat comes from. I eat very little meat in comparison to friends and quality is key.
I think there is an obsession across 1st world countries, to consume, consume, consume. When I watch the COUPON USA programme, I can't believe how much people are obsessing with stashing endless food items. What on earth for? If the world is going to end, it's going to end, FGS!
I posted a thread here over a week ago and I could not believe how many people took the pointers out of context. One of them about eating less meat and more raw. I got some serious tongue lashing for it, but I just put it down to ignorance.
I truly believe that we can eat better to improve our health or reduce our risk of developing cancers if it has been in family.
You ask about view on American diet.... my impression is "let's eat as much, buy even more, have even bigger" .... not good or healthy! :ohwell:0
This discussion has been closed.
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