My response to people that say humans HAVE to eat meat...
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I always say that the vegetarians who tell me they don't eat meat because of the guilt about ending the life of an animal are full of *kitten* with all the respect. Living beings are living beings, and under the microscope they all have living cells, INCLUDING vegetables. Just because a tree doesn't have a heart doesn't mean it is not a living organism that will die when you cut it. What happens when you cut a flower and leave it on a table? It will die and dry. Same thing happens when you cut veggies and eat them. So that whole "guilt" is nothing but pure hypocrisy.
PS. Now shoot me :bigsmile:
I think this oversimplifies ONE of the arguments for vegetarianism. True, we must kill to survive; some consider that an existential dilemma to face. But as human beings capable of rational thought and empathy, shouldn't one of our goals be to reduce that suffering and not be wasteful with it? Killing a carrot plant or a chicken do not amount to the same thing. Other posters have commented about animals having central nervous systems, but the difference is much larger than that.
As people on this site know, most of the food we consume is (ideally) used for metabolic purposes and not stored in tissue. Because of this, trophic level efficiency is only about 10%. That is, 90% of what an animal eats is lost as energy before a consumer eats it, which is why there are so few top predators relative to producers. The food used to feed the chicken could have fed at least ten times more people than the chicken feeds. This is why people are often encouraged to "eat low on the food chain." Doing otherwise is extremely inefficient and wasteful from an ecological perspective. So, while vegetarians must still kill to survive, they greatly reduce the number of living things they kill, which I don't think is at all hypocritical.0 -
Since a herbivore is an animal that eats mostly vegetables, and a carnivore is an animal that eats mostly meat, what is an omnivore? Seriously. I have never heard a defintion of omnivore that makes sense. And don't say an animal that eats both meat and vegetables, since most herbivores and most carnivores do that. A carnivore or herbivore is defined by dentition, mandibular structure and size of intestines, among other things. And yes, if humans were carnivores we WOULD look like that.
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I'm surprised you have such a hard time understanding this. We have fairly simple intestines compared to a true herbivore. Our cecums are quite small and large intestines much shorter than our small intestines. Intestine are my specialty actually. My dissertation (not thesis, that's a Master's) studies the effect of a SAD diet on intestinal permeability and endotoxin levels in skeletal muscle metabolic dysregulation.
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And I am utterly shocked that a 3/4 Ph.D. knows so much more about this than the President of The American Society of Cardiologists. William C. Roberts MD, who has over 1300 publicatgions, including his 2008 "The Cause of Atherosclerosis", (Nutrition in Clinical Practice) , where he states that there is a single, sole cause to heart disease: cholesterol. If your total cholesterol is below 150 and LDL is below 70, you are essentially heart attack proof. What is the cause of high cholesterol? Saturated fat and animal products.
Williams is also unequivocal about humans being herbivores:
"Although we think we are one, and we act as if we are one, human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings who are natural herbivores." - William C. Roberts, M.D., editor, American Journal of Cardiology.
Perhaps for the other 1/4 of your Ph.D. you can learn what characteristics separate herbivores from carnivores:
Intestinal tract length. Carnivorous animals have intestinal tracts that are 3-6x their body length, while herbivores have intestinal tracts 10-12x their body length. Human beings have the same intestinal tract ratio as herbivores.
Stomach acidity. Carnivores’ stomachs are 20x more acidic than the stomachs of herbivores. Human stomach acidity matches that of herbivores.
Saliva. The saliva of carnivores is acidic. The saliva of herbivores is alkaline, which helps pre-digest plant foods. Human saliva is alkaline.
Shape of intestines. Carnivore bowels are smooth, shaped like a pipe, so meat passes through quickly — they don’t have bumps or pockets. Herbivore bowels are bumpy and pouch-like with lots of pockets, like a windy mountain road, so plant foods pass through slowly for optimal nutrient absorption. Human bowels have the same characteristics as those of herbivores.
Fiber. Carnivores don’t require fiber to help move food through their short and smooth digestive tracts. Herbivores require dietary fiber to move food through their long and bumpy digestive tracts, to prevent the bowels from becoming clogged with rotting food. Humans have the same requirement as herbivores.
Cholesterol. Cholesterol is not a problem for a carnivore’s digestive system. A carnivore such as a cat can handle a high-cholesterol diet without negative health consequences. A human cannot. Humans have zero dietary need for cholesterol because our bodies manufacture all we need. Cholesterol is only found in animal foods, never in plant foods. A plant-based diet is by definition cholesterol-free.
Claws and teeth. Carnivores have claws, sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, and no flat molars for chewing. Herbivores have no claws or sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, but they have flat molars for chewing. Humans have the same characteristics as herbivores.0 -
I'm not going to say anything about what's good or not for anyone, we all eat what we want, and aside from the fact that over eating and processed food is what causes obesity and other health factors, the following is very true in my opinion.
(let's say it is organic food and you eat exactly this for the rest of your life)
- Eat both meat and veggies and drink water = live a regular life
- Eat veggies only and drink water = live a regular life
- Eat meat only and drink water = I don't know how long you'll last
Actually, there are actually people who subsist on just meat and do just fine. As a meat-eater, the idea gags me but, there ya go. See http://drbass.com/stefansson1.html There are many other good articles on the topic as well.0 -
Oh, now we're quantifying disease as chronic or otherwise. Another poster was talking about how his kids are all nice and healthy because of a vegan diet but everybody else's are sick sniffly little snot balls because they are not. I guess I'm exempt from posting for another 30-40 years because there are no 'apparent' diseases caused by my choice to eat meat.First of all, chronic diseases resulting from meat eating do not normally present in someone of the age you appear to be.Second of all, as I have said, humans are a herbivore species. Check your dentition against that of a dog or cat, note the different mandibular structure, and although I hesitate to suggest to a meat lover to check the intestine length of a human against that of a true carnivore.
I haven't the foggiest idea of what you're talking about. Humans are herbivores? Seriously? Why then do we have any inclination to eat meat at all? And just for the record, I never said that humans are carnivores. The word I used was ominvores, which means, at it's barest essence, that we are perfectly capable of surviving on a mix of meat and plant foods.Finally, anyone with a modicum of morality would realize that the Kantian Catigorical Imparative (the Golden Rule to you) applies as the most basic test of morality that there is. You fail.
Oh, thanks for using the layman definition of that other term you used. Even if I didn't know what it was, I am so completely unable to use google, that I couldn't have figured it out without your aid.
I'll just say that if a cow, chicken, or fish wants to try to eat me, then by all means, let it give it a go. I like to spend my time in the mountains; but that doesn't mean that I don't carry a gun with me in case a bobcat or bear wants to try to make me its next meal. Jungle law still applies and your morality still fails to trump my own.0 -
coming from someone who posted...Been on and off with vegan, but declare my self as a vegetarian now. I have made the switch to soy milk, ice-cream, and other soy products, but honestly, there is no good substitute cheese in my opinion, and I like cheese. I buy all my food organic and all natural at Whole Foods however, making the cheese i buy better than what you find at walmart. Good luck, stay strong, and make sure you are giving your body what it needs
I'm not shocked that you'd create a post like this. Why not go and look up all the possible side effects of consuming too much soy? Oh and FYI you CAN get organic products at Walmart as well...seems you're on a mighty high horse.0 -
Oh, now we're quantifying disease as chronic or otherwise. Another poster was talking about how his kids are all nice and healthy because of a vegan diet but everybody else's are sick sniffly little snot balls because they are not. I guess I'm exempt from posting for another 30-40 years because there are no 'apparent' diseases caused by my choice to eat meat.First of all, chronic diseases resulting from meat eating do not normally present in someone of the age you appear to be.Second of all, as I have said, humans are a herbivore species. Check your dentition against that of a dog or cat, note the different mandibular structure, and although I hesitate to suggest to a meat lover to check the intestine length of a human against that of a true carnivore.
I haven't the foggiest idea of what you're talking about. Humans are herbivores? Seriously? Why then do we have any inclination to eat meat at all? And just for the record, I never said that humans are carnivores. The word I used was ominvores, which means, at it's barest essence, that we are perfectly capable of surviving on a mix of meat and plant foods.Finally, anyone with a modicum of morality would realize that the Kantian Catigorical Imparative (the Golden Rule to you) applies as the most basic test of morality that there is. You fail.
Oh, thanks for using the layman definition of that other term you used. Even if I didn't know what it was, I am so completely unable to use google, that I couldn't have figured it out without your aid.
I'll just say that if a cow, chicken, or fish wants to try to eat me, then by all means, let it give it a go. I like to spend my time in the mountains; but that doesn't mean that I don't carry a gun with me in case a bobcat or bear wants to try to make me its next meal. Jungle law still applies and your morality still fails to trump my own.
Yeah, well, I guess that is the difference between living in a civilized place and living in a jungle.0 -
If humans weren't supposed to eat meat, then why do we have those pesky incisor teeth. They are for ripping and tearing....meat. And yes, most eastern cultures survive on non meat diets......and they are 5'2" and way 100 pounds. They don't eat meat because they can't affort it, not because it's a choice. Let's go stand in some communist chinese families house. You can hand them a bowl of rice and some broccoli and tell them how awesome their non meat diet is. I'll be sitting in the corner not saying a word with a four 18 oz Ribeyes. I'm willing to bet they will beat you silly with a bottle of soy sauce and join me for a real dinner.
Gee, here is a photo of a carnivore. I assume that next to your post, that is your picture. You know something, your teeth do not look the same. Here is some advice for you:
Stalk a big, feisty watermelon, as big as you can find. Jump it, and bring it down. Go for the soft underbelly or the genitals. Then when it is on the ground break its neck. Then dig into the juicy red meat.
Awaiting your report.
Just for the record: Of course we don't look like that, because we are not carnivores. We are omnivores, so we have teeth both to eat plants and to eat meat with. Goodness.
It is nice to see rational vegetarians, vegans, and meat lovers in this thread (of course, mixed in with the amusing evangelists on either side).
Since a herbivore is an animal that eats mostly vegetables, and a carnivore is an animal that eats mostly meat, what is an omnivore? Seriously. I have never heard a defintion of omnivore that makes sense. And don't say an animal that eats both meat and vegetables, since most herbivores and most carnivores do that. A carnivore or herbivore is defined by dentition, mandibular structure and size of intestines, among other things. And yes, if humans were carnivores we WOULD look like that.
The way I understand it, being an omnivore is like being bisexual--you can swing both ways.0 -
Sorry! Not giving up meat. I have a pretty good relationship with it. It's also Biblical to eat meat. But that's another arguement
It's only "biblical" to eat meat post flood when "god" gave humans (Noah and family) "permission" to eat flesh (with a few exceptions laid down in Hebrew law). You'll notice that according to scripture, post flood lifespans began declining dramatically from hundreds of years down to an average of "70 or 80" because of "special mightiness". Hmmmmm? So.... Adam and Eve would appear to have been vegan and had the potential to live forever. Perhaps the introduction of meat was part of gods method of revoking the first perfect couples (and descendants) license (or capacity, depending on how you look at it) to live forever? According to the bible that is. Just speculating. BTW. I don't believe any of it, I'm an atheist (not amoral, just atheist). Also a selective omnivore. Just saying':)
Well said Rach!0 -
If humans weren't supposed to eat meat, then why do we have those pesky incisor teeth. They are for ripping and tearing....meat. And yes, most eastern cultures survive on non meat diets......and they are 5'2" and way 100 pounds. They don't eat meat because they can't affort it, not because it's a choice. Let's go stand in some communist chinese families house. You can hand them a bowl of rice and some broccoli and tell them how awesome their non meat diet is. I'll be sitting in the corner not saying a word with a four 18 oz Ribeyes. I'm willing to bet they will beat you silly with a bottle of soy sauce and join me for a real dinner.
Gee, here is a photo of a carnivore. I assume that next to your post, that is your picture. You know something, your teeth do not look the same. Here is some advice for you:
Stalk a big, feisty watermelon, as big as you can find. Jump it, and bring it down. Go for the soft underbelly or the genitals. Then when it is on the ground break its neck. Then dig into the juicy red meat.
Awaiting your report.
Just for the record: Of course we don't look like that, because we are not carnivores. We are omnivores, so we have teeth both to eat plants and to eat meat with. Goodness.
It is nice to see rational vegetarians, vegans, and meat lovers in this thread (of course, mixed in with the amusing evangelists on either side).
Since a herbivore is an animal that eats mostly vegetables, and a carnivore is an animal that eats mostly meat, what is an omnivore? Seriously. I have never heard a defintion of omnivore that makes sense. And don't say an animal that eats both meat and vegetables, since most herbivores and most carnivores do that. A carnivore or herbivore is defined by dentition, mandibular structure and size of intestines, among other things. And yes, if humans were carnivores we WOULD look like that.
The way I understand it, being an omnivore is like being bisexual--you can swing both ways.
LOL! Good one!0 -
Actually, there are actually people who subsist on just meat and do just fine. As a meat-eater, the idea gags me but, there ya go. See http://drbass.com/stefansson1.html There are many other good articles on the topic as well.
I'm not sure I expressed myself correctly. I was talking in a hypothetical way of just eating meat (no rice, no beans, no bread, nothing but meat) and water. For a human being it is impossible to live a whole life just eating that since meat lacks certain vital nutrients our bodies need.
My hypothetical comparison was in regards of meat ONLY and veggies ONLY. When compared that way, it makes sense that you can live on one but not the other.0 -
If humans weren't supposed to eat meat, then why do we have those pesky incisor teeth. They are for ripping and tearing....meat. And yes, most eastern cultures survive on non meat diets......and they are 5'2" and way 100 pounds. They don't eat meat because they can't affort it, not because it's a choice. Let's go stand in some communist chinese families house. You can hand them a bowl of rice and some broccoli and tell them how awesome their non meat diet is. I'll be sitting in the corner not saying a word with a four 18 oz Ribeyes. I'm willing to bet they will beat you silly with a bottle of soy sauce and join me for a real dinner.
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Gee, here is a photo of a carnivore. I assume that next to your post, that is your picture. You know something, your teeth do not look the same. Here is some advice for you:
Stalk a big, feisty watermelon, as big as you can find. Jump it, and bring it down. Go for the soft underbelly or the genitals. Then when it is on the ground break its neck. Then dig into the juicy red meat.
Awaiting your report.
Just for the record: Of course we don't look like that, because we are not carnivores. We are omnivores, so we have teeth both to eat plants and to eat meat with. Goodness.
It is nice to see rational vegetarians, vegans, and meat lovers in this thread (of course, mixed in with the amusing evangelists on either side).
Since a herbivore is an animal that eats mostly vegetables, and a carnivore is an animal that eats mostly meat, what is an omnivore? Seriously. I have never heard a defintion of omnivore that makes sense. And don't say an animal that eats both meat and vegetables, since most herbivores and most carnivores do that. A carnivore or herbivore is defined by dentition, mandibular structure and size of intestines, among other things. And yes, if humans were carnivores we WOULD look like that.
The way I understand it, being an omnivore is like being bisexual--you can swing both ways.
Haha! One of the best ways to put it.0 -
I'm not going to say anything about what's good or not for anyone, we all eat what we want, and aside from the fact that over eating and processed food is what causes obesity and other health factors, the following is very true in my opinion.
(let's say it is organic food and you eat exactly this for the rest of your life)
- Eat both meat and veggies and drink water = live a regular life
- Eat veggies only and drink water = live a regular life
- Eat meat only and drink water = I don't know how long you'll last
Actually, there are actually people who subsist on just meat and do just fine. As a meat-eater, the idea gags me but, there ya go. See http://drbass.com/stefansson1.html There are many other good articles on the topic as well.
Very small populations such as the Inuit and Lapplanders who are genetically adapted to very harsh environments. These are distinct groups and are the favorite groups of studies sponsored by the meat and dairy industry. There are genetic abnormalities everywhere in the general population. George Burns, for example, smoked every day of his life and lived to be over 100. However, just because he did that, I wouldn't recommend anyone else to try it.0 -
Really oversimplified but well....
Some meat eaters/vegetarians/vegans will/wont get a degenerative or life ending disease.
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I am a vegetarian. I am perfectly healthy. Having studied human evolution I have yet to see a single jot of evidence that humans are biologically supposed to be omnivores. Every single bit of biological evidence suggests we should be vegetarian.
BUT I CBA arguing with meat eaters. Each to their own.
If we're supposed to be vegetarian how come we have Canine's & molars? they are for ripping & chewing meat.
While many people in the developing world eat or have available enough food in sheer caloric intake, their diets are severely lacking in micronutrients that can only be derived from animal-source protein. Livestock consumption provides a micronutrient-rich supplement to a staple-plant based diet in developing nations. Animal-source foods (including meat, milk and eggs) are particularly appropriate for combating the range of nutritional deficiencies faced by people in developing nations, from providing them with additional iron, calcium, and zinc, to stabilizing a food supply which often fluctuates seasonally.
You can't get everything that your body needs on just a plant based diet, most vegans/veggies take supplements that give them the nutrients that meat would.
Herbivores have molars. Look at cows, horses.....even elephants have canines and molars. Carnivores and omnivores in general DON'T have molars. They are for grinding plant matter.0 -
Williams is also unequivocal about humans being herbivores:
"Although we think we are one, and we act as if we are one, human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings who are natural herbivores." - William C. Roberts, M.D., editor, American Journal of Cardiology.
Perhaps for the other 1/4 of your Ph.D. you can learn what characteristics separate herbivores from carnivores:
Intestinal tract length. Carnivorous animals have intestinal tracts that are 3-6x their body length, while herbivores have intestinal tracts 10-12x their body length. Human beings have the same intestinal tract ratio as herbivores.
Stomach acidity. Carnivores’ stomachs are 20x more acidic than the stomachs of herbivores. Human stomach acidity matches that of herbivores.
Saliva. The saliva of carnivores is acidic. The saliva of herbivores is alkaline, which helps pre-digest plant foods. Human saliva is alkaline.
Shape of intestines. Carnivore bowels are smooth, shaped like a pipe, so meat passes through quickly — they don’t have bumps or pockets. Herbivore bowels are bumpy and pouch-like with lots of pockets, like a windy mountain road, so plant foods pass through slowly for optimal nutrient absorption. Human bowels have the same characteristics as those of herbivores.
Fiber. Carnivores don’t require fiber to help move food through their short and smooth digestive tracts. Herbivores require dietary fiber to move food through their long and bumpy digestive tracts, to prevent the bowels from becoming clogged with rotting food. Humans have the same requirement as herbivores.
Cholesterol. Cholesterol is not a problem for a carnivore’s digestive system. A carnivore such as a cat can handle a high-cholesterol diet without negative health consequences. A human cannot. Humans have zero dietary need for cholesterol because our bodies manufacture all we need. Cholesterol is only found in animal foods, never in plant foods. A plant-based diet is by definition cholesterol-free.
Claws and teeth. Carnivores have claws, sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, and no flat molars for chewing. Herbivores have no claws or sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, but they have flat molars for chewing. Humans have the same characteristics as herbivores.
We don't need claws. We have thumbs and weapons. Last time I checked, I had no problem chewing a piece of meat.
We have the mechanics for processing cholesterol. Chylomicrons--> liver ---> LDL/HDL, etc. Some people don't have enough HDL cholesterol so they can't scavenge the LDL and that becomes a problem.
We don't need fiber to move food. We have peristalsis. The fiber is fermented by the bacteria in our gut to make short-chain fatty acids which the enterocytes utilize to make ATP. We can't digest fiber because we aren't ruminant.
We have the intestines of an omnivore. Filled with bacteria that can ferment the fibers which we can't digest. A small cecum and appendix. Long small intestine compared to the large intestine. The folds are there to increase surface area for maximum absorption.
Our stomachs are highly acidic at a pH of about 2-3. We don't have salivary peptidases, true, but we have no issues breaking the meat down in our stomachs.
We aren't carnivores. We're OMNIVORES.0 -
No where does it say that humans have to eat meat. There are plenty of plant based foods that provide adequate protein. Many of the top killer cancers and diseases of Americans are caused by food and poor nutrition, overconsumption of animal based foods, and refined sugars that cause high cholesterol and high blood sugar. 40% of Americans are overweight, and cost the U.S. billions of dollars in health care due to treatments and surgeries for otherwise mostly preventable causes (Diabetes, heart disease, prostate/breast cancer, etc.) Eastern cultures in which diets are mostly plant based, have little to almost bar none death rates of cancer and disease compared to Western civilizations in which meat/dairy consumption is part of an everyday diet. Not saying nobody should ever eat meat or dairy again, but we should be more aware of what we are putting into are bodies and cutting back on what is killing us. It has been tested and proven that we can prevent and even reverse most illnesses with diet oppose to prescription medications. (FYI to everyone) Many vegans and vegetarians have far few health problems than people who "have" to eat meat. Many who make the switch are smart enough to provide their bodies with the necessary vitamins and nutrition to live a healthy life. Many Americans have no idea how to sacrifice, even if it means for their health in the long run. It is sad we live in a world where our temporary satisfaction we get with the foods that "comfort" us, trump that of our lifelong health. We don't know any better anymore. We are raised with greed and overconsumption and most of us will never now what it is like to starve and struggle. Chew on that!
I am not looking for a heated debate, just opinions, and I love to hear what people from other countries have to say about this American argument. Thank you.
All I have to say is this: Then why did we evolve (or were created to have) canines? (the teeth, not the dog). They are for tearing apart meat. 0 -
@VegesaurusRex
Still avoiding...Oversimplistic either/or views of carnivorous adaptations. The various comparative "proofs" of vegetarianism often rely heavily on comparisons with true carnivores, e.g., lions, tigers, etc. The basic arguments made are that meat cannot be a "natural" food for humans, because humans don't have the same physical features characteristic of the small group of animals that are considered to be "true" carnivores. However, such arguments are based on an oversimplified and flawed view of adaptation; that is, the underlying assumption being that there is only one--or at least one main set of--physical adaptation(s) consistent with eating meat. Such arguments also ignore the high intelligence and adaptive behavior of humans.
...
Logical problems of the comparative proofs
The above physical comparisons are accurate--clearly, humans do not have the jaws, teeth, or claws of a lion. However, to use this information to conclude that humans "cannot" eat meat, or "must have" the same physical traits as other predators to do so, or did not adapt to meat in the diet, is logically invalid and bogus. A short list of errors in reaching the above conclusion is as follows:
Focusing on purely carnivorous adaptations rather than omnivorous ones. One clarification should be made immediately: This paper does not suggest that humans are true carnivores adapted for a nearly pure-meat diet. Although it may be that humans might be able to do well on such a diet (e.g., the traditional diet of the Inuit), the focus of this paper is to investigate whether meat can be considered a natural part of the human diet--certainly the paleoanthropological evidence supports that view. Thus the focus here is not on the bogus issue "are humans pure carnivores?" but on "are humans faunivores/omnivores?"
Invalid black-and-white views. The conclusion above (that meat "cannot" be a natural part of the human diet) is based on a simplistic (incomplete/invalid) view of adaptation. That is, the conclusion is based on the implicit assumption that the specific physical adaptations of the lion, tiger, etc., are the ONLY adaptations that can serve their intended function, i.e., meat-eating. Inasmuch as meat is a small but significant part of the diet of chimps, however--who also lack the carnivore adaptations (sharp teeth, claws, etc.)--we observe that the assumption is obviously false.
Various oversimplistic assumptions. The analysis is simplistic and makes many of the mistakes listed in the preceding section--i.e., it assumes the form/function linkage is strict, fails to recognize that the same form can serve multiple functions, etc.
Overlooked differences in adaptive behavior. The analysis ignores critical differences in feeding behavior, i.e., the ones relating to the hunting/feeding behavior of omnivorous primates (e.g., the chimp) in the wild, which is well-known to be different from that of lions and tigers. Also, adaptive behavior (enhanced via human intelligence and technology--tools) allows humans to easily overcome many of the physical limitations of our physical form and morphology.
Impact of tool use and language on morphology disregarded. The analysis ignores the impact that human intelligence has had on morphology, specifically the evolutionary effect of technology (stone tools and cooking), as well as possible morphological changes to support language--yet another unique human feature.
Obvious explanations rationalized away as "illegitimate." A simple, summary answer to the question of how humans can hunt animals and eat meat without the physical adaptations of the lion and tiger is the obvious one implicitly ignored and rationalized by the advocates of simplistic comparative "proofs": We don't need sharp teeth, powerful jaws, or claws to capture and butcher animals because we have used (since our inception as a genus ~2.5 million years ago) tools (or technology--stone weapons) for that purpose. Over the eons, evolution itself has adapted our physiologies to the results of this behavior along unique lines, quite regardless of the hue and cry over the "illegitimacy" with which these behaviors/skills are regarded by those extremists promoting the bizarre idea that human dietary behavior should be strictly limited to what we could do "naked, without tools."
Technology, driven by our intelligence, supports adaptive behavior that allows us to easily overcome the physical limitations that the comparative "proofs" regard (incorrectly) as being limiting factors. Along similar lines, we don't need the strong bodies of a lion or tiger because we have something much more powerful: high intelligence, which allowed humans to become the most efficient hunters, and the dominant mammalian species, on the planet.
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-6a.shtml0 -
We aren't carnivores. We're OMNIVORES.
Define OMNIVORE in a way that it cannot mean either a tiger or a mouse.0 -
We aren't carnivores. We're OMNIVORES.
Define OMNIVORE in a way that it cannot mean either a tiger or a mouse.
What? :huh:
Mice can be omnivorous.... tiger's aren't.
I'm not sure what you even mean.0 -
Cancer developes mainly from freezing or reheating food in plastic containers, and also from burnt food... which could also apply to a vegetarian bbq, so you are as likely to die of cancer as any other person is!!0
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@VegesaurusRex
Still avoiding...Oversimplistic either/or views of carnivorous adaptations. The various comparative "proofs" of vegetarianism often rely heavily on comparisons with true carnivores, e.g., lions, tigers, etc. The basic arguments made are that meat cannot be a "natural" food for humans, because humans don't have the same physical features characteristic of the small group of animals that are considered to be "true" carnivores. However, such arguments are based on an oversimplified and flawed view of adaptation; that is, the underlying assumption being that there is only one--or at least one main set of--physical adaptation(s) consistent with eating meat. Such arguments also ignore the high intelligence and adaptive behavior of humans.
...
Logical problems of the comparative proofs
The above physical comparisons are accurate--clearly, humans do not have the jaws, teeth, or claws of a lion. However, to use this information to conclude that humans "cannot" eat meat, or "must have" the same physical traits as other predators to do so, or did not adapt to meat in the diet, is logically invalid and bogus. A short list of errors in reaching the above conclusion is as follows:
Focusing on purely carnivorous adaptations rather than omnivorous ones. One clarification should be made immediately: This paper does not suggest that humans are true carnivores adapted for a nearly pure-meat diet. Although it may be that humans might be able to do well on such a diet (e.g., the traditional diet of the Inuit), the focus of this paper is to investigate whether meat can be considered a natural part of the human diet--certainly the paleoanthropological evidence supports that view. Thus the focus here is not on the bogus issue "are humans pure carnivores?" but on "are humans faunivores/omnivores?"
Invalid black-and-white views. The conclusion above (that meat "cannot" be a natural part of the human diet) is based on a simplistic (incomplete/invalid) view of adaptation. That is, the conclusion is based on the implicit assumption that the specific physical adaptations of the lion, tiger, etc., are the ONLY adaptations that can serve their intended function, i.e., meat-eating. Inasmuch as meat is a small but significant part of the diet of chimps, however--who also lack the carnivore adaptations (sharp teeth, claws, etc.)--we observe that the assumption is obviously false.
Various oversimplistic assumptions. The analysis is simplistic and makes many of the mistakes listed in the preceding section--i.e., it assumes the form/function linkage is strict, fails to recognize that the same form can serve multiple functions, etc.
Overlooked differences in adaptive behavior. The analysis ignores critical differences in feeding behavior, i.e., the ones relating to the hunting/feeding behavior of omnivorous primates (e.g., the chimp) in the wild, which is well-known to be different from that of lions and tigers. Also, adaptive behavior (enhanced via human intelligence and technology--tools) allows humans to easily overcome many of the physical limitations of our physical form and morphology.
Impact of tool use and language on morphology disregarded. The analysis ignores the impact that human intelligence has had on morphology, specifically the evolutionary effect of technology (stone tools and cooking), as well as possible morphological changes to support language--yet another unique human feature.
Obvious explanations rationalized away as "illegitimate." A simple, summary answer to the question of how humans can hunt animals and eat meat without the physical adaptations of the lion and tiger is the obvious one implicitly ignored and rationalized by the advocates of simplistic comparative "proofs": We don't need sharp teeth, powerful jaws, or claws to capture and butcher animals because we have used (since our inception as a genus ~2.5 million years ago) tools (or technology--stone weapons) for that purpose. Over the eons, evolution itself has adapted our physiologies to the results of this behavior along unique lines, quite regardless of the hue and cry over the "illegitimacy" with which these behaviors/skills are regarded by those extremists promoting the bizarre idea that human dietary behavior should be strictly limited to what we could do "naked, without tools."
Technology, driven by our intelligence, supports adaptive behavior that allows us to easily overcome the physical limitations that the comparative "proofs" regard (incorrectly) as being limiting factors. Along similar lines, we don't need the strong bodies of a lion or tiger because we have something much more powerful: high intelligence, which allowed humans to become the most efficient hunters, and the dominant mammalian species, on the planet.
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-6a.shtml
I have ignored this every time you have posted this. It is just crap. You might as well cite an opinion piece in the National Inquirer as proof.0 -
Cancer developes mainly from freezing or reheating food in plastic containers, and also from burnt food... which could also apply to a vegetarian bbq, so you are as likely to die of cancer as any other person is!!
:laugh: So true! People are so caught up in the diet that they forget about the other, more potent, carcinogens.0 -
@VegesaurusRex
Still avoiding...Oversimplistic either/or views of carnivorous adaptations. The various comparative "proofs" of vegetarianism often rely heavily on comparisons with true carnivores, e.g., lions, tigers, etc. The basic arguments made are that meat cannot be a "natural" food for humans, because humans don't have the same physical features characteristic of the small group of animals that are considered to be "true" carnivores. However, such arguments are based on an oversimplified and flawed view of adaptation; that is, the underlying assumption being that there is only one--or at least one main set of--physical adaptation(s) consistent with eating meat. Such arguments also ignore the high intelligence and adaptive behavior of humans.
...
Logical problems of the comparative proofs
The above physical comparisons are accurate--clearly, humans do not have the jaws, teeth, or claws of a lion. However, to use this information to conclude that humans "cannot" eat meat, or "must have" the same physical traits as other predators to do so, or did not adapt to meat in the diet, is logically invalid and bogus. A short list of errors in reaching the above conclusion is as follows:
Focusing on purely carnivorous adaptations rather than omnivorous ones. One clarification should be made immediately: This paper does not suggest that humans are true carnivores adapted for a nearly pure-meat diet. Although it may be that humans might be able to do well on such a diet (e.g., the traditional diet of the Inuit), the focus of this paper is to investigate whether meat can be considered a natural part of the human diet--certainly the paleoanthropological evidence supports that view. Thus the focus here is not on the bogus issue "are humans pure carnivores?" but on "are humans faunivores/omnivores?"
Invalid black-and-white views. The conclusion above (that meat "cannot" be a natural part of the human diet) is based on a simplistic (incomplete/invalid) view of adaptation. That is, the conclusion is based on the implicit assumption that the specific physical adaptations of the lion, tiger, etc., are the ONLY adaptations that can serve their intended function, i.e., meat-eating. Inasmuch as meat is a small but significant part of the diet of chimps, however--who also lack the carnivore adaptations (sharp teeth, claws, etc.)--we observe that the assumption is obviously false.
Various oversimplistic assumptions. The analysis is simplistic and makes many of the mistakes listed in the preceding section--i.e., it assumes the form/function linkage is strict, fails to recognize that the same form can serve multiple functions, etc.
Overlooked differences in adaptive behavior. The analysis ignores critical differences in feeding behavior, i.e., the ones relating to the hunting/feeding behavior of omnivorous primates (e.g., the chimp) in the wild, which is well-known to be different from that of lions and tigers. Also, adaptive behavior (enhanced via human intelligence and technology--tools) allows humans to easily overcome many of the physical limitations of our physical form and morphology.
Impact of tool use and language on morphology disregarded. The analysis ignores the impact that human intelligence has had on morphology, specifically the evolutionary effect of technology (stone tools and cooking), as well as possible morphological changes to support language--yet another unique human feature.
Obvious explanations rationalized away as "illegitimate." A simple, summary answer to the question of how humans can hunt animals and eat meat without the physical adaptations of the lion and tiger is the obvious one implicitly ignored and rationalized by the advocates of simplistic comparative "proofs": We don't need sharp teeth, powerful jaws, or claws to capture and butcher animals because we have used (since our inception as a genus ~2.5 million years ago) tools (or technology--stone weapons) for that purpose. Over the eons, evolution itself has adapted our physiologies to the results of this behavior along unique lines, quite regardless of the hue and cry over the "illegitimacy" with which these behaviors/skills are regarded by those extremists promoting the bizarre idea that human dietary behavior should be strictly limited to what we could do "naked, without tools."
Technology, driven by our intelligence, supports adaptive behavior that allows us to easily overcome the physical limitations that the comparative "proofs" regard (incorrectly) as being limiting factors. Along similar lines, we don't need the strong bodies of a lion or tiger because we have something much more powerful: high intelligence, which allowed humans to become the most efficient hunters, and the dominant mammalian species, on the planet.
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-6a.shtml
I have ignored this every time you have posted this. It is just crap. You might as well cite an opinion piece in the National Inquirer as proof.
It isn't really an opinion piece when it is permeated with sources and citations. Perhaps you should go to the linked page and look at the constant parenthetical citations?0 -
It isn't really an opinion piece when it is permeated with sources and citations. Perhaps you should go to the linked page and look at the constant parenthetical citations?
But why would he do that when he's already an expert on every journal and every method of everything EVER?!0 -
It isn't really an opinion piece when it is permeated with sources and citations. Perhaps you should go to the linked page and look at the constant parenthetical citations?
But why would he do that when he's already an expert on every journal and every method of everything EVER?!
Oh no! My mistake! Bad Turtle, thinking people can learn something new. >.<0 -
It isn't really an opinion piece when it is permeated with sources and citations. Perhaps you should go to the linked page and look at the constant parenthetical citations?
But why would he do that when he's already an expert on every journal and every method of everything EVER?!
Oh no! My mistake! Bad Turtle, thinking people can learn something new. >.<
What's that they say about old dogs and new tricks? 0 -
I haven't had more than a minor sore throat or a tiny stomach bug in about 2 or 3 years. I am of a normal healthy weight. I work out. My cholesterol is "excellent" as well as my blood pressure, iron levels and all of that. I am unfortunately a type one diabetic.
But I eat meat and dairy every day. The only thing is...I eat it in MODERATION and I know where most of my meat comes from. I rarely eat fast food (once a month, maybe) and dine out about as much. The key to a healthy diet is to eat a variety of food, try to avoid things that are over processed and don't over do it. It's that simple.0 -
I have ignored this every time you have posted this. It is just crap. You might as well cite an opinion piece in the National Inquirer as proof.
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http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-refs1b.shtm
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-refs1a.shtml0 -
It's all , carbon, hydrogen , nitrogen and oxygen in my view , people can decide whatever they want to eat.0
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We aren't carnivores. We're OMNIVORES.
Define OMNIVORE in a way that it cannot mean either a tiger or a mouse.
What? :huh:
Mice can be omnivorous.... tiger's aren't.
I'm not sure what you even mean.
Are you saying tigers can't eat berries? Please be very precise because I would have to bring in a bunch of studies to show you don't know what you are talking about based on a misunderstanding.
Also, why don't you address Dr Roberts defintiion of herbivore. I respect his definition far more than that of a 3/4 Ph.D. who apparently has no idea how to cite articles defending her position.
I will tell you my point up front. If your defintion of "omnivore" is so vague as to include every member of Animalia, then it is totally useless. I gave you several cites and precise definitions. I told you physiologically what the difference beween a carnivore and a herbivore is. You have given me nothing so far except your ex cathedra statements. I am not interested in arguing with the Pope. I want scientic answers, not opinions.0
This discussion has been closed.
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