My response to people that say humans HAVE to eat meat...

songbyrdsweet

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Since a herbivore is an animal that eats mostly vegetables, and a carnivore is an animal that eats mostly meat, what is an omnivore? Seriously. I have never heard a defintion of omnivore that makes sense. And don't say an animal that eats both meat and vegetables, since most herbivores and most carnivores do that. A carnivore or herbivore is defined by dentition, mandibular structure and size of intestines, among other things. And yes, if humans were carnivores we WOULD look like that.
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I'm surprised you have such a hard time understanding this. We have fairly simple intestines compared to a true herbivore. Our cecums are quite small and large intestines much shorter than our small intestines. Intestine are my specialty actually. My dissertation (not thesis, that's a Master's) studies the effect of a SAD diet on intestinal permeability and endotoxin levels in skeletal muscle metabolic dysregulation.

Thriceshy

True, this will be a never-ending debate. I've given up trying to push the anti-meat debate unless the audience wants to hear it. The only point I'll add to this thread is that since we turned vegan, myself, my wife, and my son, have never been sick. In two years, a sore throat or mild cold simply disappears by itself two days later.

Same goes for my two year-old son. The other kids in his daycare center are always sticky with runny noses, colds, coughs, you name it. Thankfully my son shakes it off after a day or two. He also has all the energy in the world and doctors confirmed his development is spot-on without any meat or dairy consumption.

Regardless of what anybody says, dropping the meat and dairy has been the best thing for my family's health, with noticeable changes from day 1. Even if the ethics behind animal cruelty do not concern you, I recommend the vegan lifestyle simply for the pure, clean, ongoing health benefits you enjoy every day.

And about B12 deficiency? An easy supplement keeps me on the sunny side.

Peace and health to you all!

My son is also a mega-infection fighter, with flu or colds either bypassing him or only hitting him mildly while decimating those around him. Difference is, he eats meat and dairy along with his veggies. However, he was breastfed for over 2 years, which is proven to do amazing things in risk-reduction/improved immunity. At nearly 14, he's still never had an ear infection, and I can count the number of times he's had a fever on one hand.

I'm of the "eat what you will, be reasonable, enjoy life" camp. Some folks do that by eating omnivore. Some by going vegan. Some in-between. So long as we don't smack each other for it, there's room for all of us. And no, I know you weren't smacking, and I appreciate that. I'm glad your choices are working for you!

LilacDreamer

i have never eaten meat - not 1 day in my life, since birth.

27 years later, i'm still alive and kicking. I have AMAZING cholesterol numbers, normal-low blood pressure, and i am anemia-free.

I also do not consume soy (it's bad for my thyroid and i really dont need phytoestrogen invading my body)

paigemarie93

I am a vegetarian. I am perfectly healthy. Having studied human evolution I have yet to see a single jot of evidence that humans are biologically supposed to be omnivores. Every single bit of biological evidence suggests we should be vegetarian.


BUT I CBA arguing with meat eaters. Each to their own.

If we're supposed to be vegetarian how come we have Canine's & molars? they are for ripping & chewing meat.
While many people in the developing world eat or have available enough food in sheer caloric intake, their diets are severely lacking in micronutrients that can only be derived from animal-source protein. Livestock consumption provides a micronutrient-rich supplement to a staple-plant based diet in developing nations. Animal-source foods (including meat, milk and eggs) are particularly appropriate for combating the range of nutritional deficiencies faced by people in developing nations, from providing them with additional iron, calcium, and zinc, to stabilizing a food supply which often fluctuates seasonally.
You can't get everything that your body needs on just a plant based diet, most vegans/veggies take supplements that give them the nutrients that meat would.

YassSpartan

A little humor :bigsmile:

This guy is living proof we can eat meat :laugh:

vs1023

I eat meat because I like it and it gives me a good deal of protein which I feel I need. I do try to be sure I eat grass fed beef which is higher in the better Omega's which most people are out of balance of because of conventional meat leading to more inflammation. I love veggies though too! I eat them all the time, but I'm not going to give up eggs, beef, chicken or pork because I enjoy it.

RonSwanson66

Once again from the top

SYNOPSIS OF THE PRIMARY EVIDENCE (CONCLUSIONS)
Humans can be regarded as natural omnivores, so long as one uses the common definition of the term: a natural diet that includes significant amounts of both plant and animal foods. (Humans might not qualify as omnivores if one uses the definition of omnivore as advocated by D.J. Chivers and associates, and discussed in earlier sections herein.)

To use terms that are linked to gut morphology, humans are either faunivores [meat-eaters] or frugivores with specific (evolutionary) adaptations for the consumption of animal foods. This, of course, means that humans are not natural vegetarians. A short summary of some of the evidence supporting this follows (the material below was discussed in depth in earlier sections of this paper).

The fossil record. Approximately 2.5 million years of human omnivory/faunivory are apparent in the record, with genetic adaptation to that diet the inevitable and inescapable outcome of evolution. The supporting evidence here includes isotope analysis of fossils, providing further evidence of consumption of animal foods.

Comparative anatomy of the human gut. The best scientific evidence available to date on gut morphology--analyzed using two different statistical approaches--shows evidence of adaptations for which the best explanation is the practice of faunivory. (Faunivory as an explanation is also supported by optimal foraging theory in hunter-gatherer tribes.) Further, the human gut morphology is not what might be expected for a strict vegetarian/fruit diet.

Comparative physiology (metabolism)

Intestinal receptors for heme iron. The existence of intestinal receptors for the specific absorption of heme iron is strong evidence of adaptation to animal foods in the diet, as heme iron is found in nutritionally significant amounts only in animal foods (fauna).

B-12 an essential nutrient. Similarly, the requirement for vitamin B-12 in human nutrition, and the lack of reliable (year-round) plant sources suggests evolutionary adaptation to animal foods in the human diet.

Plant foods are poor sources of EFAs. In general, the EFAs in plant foods are in the "wrong" ratio (with the exception of a very few exotic, expensive oils), and the low synthesis rates of EPA, DHA, and other long-chain fatty acids from plant precursors point to plant foods as an "inferior" source of EFAs. This strongly suggests adaptation to foods that include preformed long-chain fatty acids, i.e., fauna.

Taurine synthesis rate. The low rate of taurine synthesis in humans, compared to that in herbivorous animals, suggests human adaptation to food sources of taurine (fauna) in the human diet.

Slow conversion of beta-carotene. The sluggish conversion rate of beta-carotene to vitamin A, especially when compared to the conversion rate in herbivorous animals, suggests adaptation to dietary sources of preformed vitamin A (i.e., a diet that includes fauna).

Plant foods available in evolution were poor zinc and iron sources. The plant foods available during evolution (fruits, vegetative plant parts, nuts, but no grains or legumes) generally provide low amounts of zinc and iron, two essential minerals. These minerals are provided by grains, but grains are products of agriculture (i.e., were not available during evolution), and contain many antinutrients that inhibit mineral absorption. This suggests that the nutritional requirements for iron and zinc were primarily met via animal foods during human evolution.

Bitter taste threshold as a trophic marker. An analysis of the human bitter taste threshold, when compared to the threshold of other mammals, suggests that our sensitivity to the bitter taste is comparable to that of carnivores/omnivores.

There is no such thing as a veg*n gatherer tribe. And there are no records to indicate that any such tribes ever existed; also no evidence of any vegan societies either.

The actual diets of all the great apes includes some fauna--animal foods. Even the great apes that are closest to being completely vegetarian, gorillas, deliberately consume insects when available. Chimps and bonobos, our closest relatives, hunt and kill vertebrates and eat occasional meat.

Many of the ancillary claims made in comparative "proofs" of veg*n diets are logical fallacies:

The misinterpretation of animal studies using domesticated or feedlot meats to condemn all omnivore diets.

The misinterpretation of clinical studies showing negative results for the SAD/SWD as indicating negative results for all omnivore diets.

The misinterpretation of the results of the China Project to claim it "proves" vegan diets are best and all omnivore diets are bad.

John McArdle, Ph.D., an anatomist and primatologist, a vegetarian, and scientific advisor to the American Anti-Vivisection Society, summarizes the situation clearly [McArdle 1996, p. 174]:

Humans are classic examples of omnivores in all relevant anatomical traits. There is no basis in anatomy or physiology for the assumption that humans are pre-adapted to the vegetarian diet. For that reason, the best arguments in support of a meat-free diet remain ecological, ethical, and health concern

Why do you insist on ignoring this?

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-9a.shtml

Lenoremik

I have been vegetarian for several years because of the inhumane way they treat animals before they slaughter them. I am also opposed to animal testing and look for products not tested on animals. I do this because of my love for animals. I am 53 years old and feel better than I have in years. Do I miss fish, pork, beef, chicken, lamb, etc.? Nope. I find plenty of other things to eat.

fitplease

I thought stress was the number one killer. :-)

mixedfeelings

Okay, yet another thread that's just spiralling out of control.

As a vegetarian I have no problem with people eating meat, there are stupid arguments on both sides. I do think humans consume more meat these days than they should do.

I also think many people don't have any real knowledge of where their food comes from, I dislike squeamish meat eaters. I grew up eating meat, stopped eating meat, fish and any animal product as a teen. Before then I had caught fished, gutted them and cooked them to eat, although I never hunted my Grandad was big in to hunting and would kill rabbits to eat along with keeping chickens to eat. I am more likely to agree with a hunter that catches animals for food than someone that eats meat but doesn't want to see a dead animal.

❤_veggies_rock_❤

I Love Veggies...but I still Love Deer Diane over any meat from the grocery store. I can only image how this image grosses people out and how the meat at the store doesn't because people do not see the eyes of the cow, or the hog, or the turkey or the chicken...

How to add that image?

songbyrdsweet

Why do you insist on ignoring this?

He's too busy harassing me about my 'thesis'.

colinmcp

I have been vegetarian for several years because of the inhumane way they treat animals before they slaughter them. I am also opposed to animal testing and look for products not tested on animals. I do this because of my love for animals. I am 53 years old and feel better than I have in years. Do I miss fish, pork, beef, chicken, lamb, etc.? Nope. I find plenty of other things to eat.

Why wouldn't you just purchase your meat from a local farmer then? If you're issue is 'just' treatment before slaughter there are plenty of ways to deal with that.

paigemarie93

The only point I'll add to this thread is that since we turned vegan, myself, my wife, and my son, have never been sick. In two years, a sore throat or mild cold simply disappears by itself two days later.

Same goes for my two year-old son. The other kids in his daycare center are always sticky with runny noses, colds, coughs, you name it. Thankfully my son shakes it off after a day or two. He also has all the energy in the world and doctors confirmed his development is spot-on without any meat or dairy consumption.

And about B12 deficiency? An easy supplement keeps me on the sunny side.

Most people can fight off colds & sore throats in day, I can & I'm rarely sick.
All children get runny noses colds & coughs, it could be hay fever, an allergy, anything, saying that your kid doesn't get like that just because of your diet is ridiculous & not scientifically proven, he's probably just allergy free like quite a few kids.
Oh & there's the big one, supplements. That my friends is why we were designed to eat meat, because if we don't, we have to have supplements!
Just because your family feels great for being vegan, doesn't mean that others will.

funkycamper

The obesity rate is higher than what you posted: 33. 7% of adults and 17.3% of children are considered obese in the United States. That's 50 percent of the population!

You are correct that many health problems can be resolved by loosing weight. Meat and dairy are two of the fattiest foods around. Dairy, tooted as being needed for its calcium content, is the worst of the two. The calcium in dairy is miniscule compared to that in plants. Additionally, it is very difficult to absorb calcium from dairy products. On top of that, the cassein in dairy products is high and is linked to cancer as well as many other health issues. A slice of cheese has quadruple the cassein than what milk has, so eating cheese is really bad for one's health.

I think most people on here would agree that it's best to increase consumption of leaner protein sources unless you're going for Omega 3 fats like in salmon. And, yeah, I think it's better to limit dairy..

As for meat, I have watched enough videos about meat glue and other products used to make inferior meat into what appears to be a superior product that I don't think a piece of beef has passed my mouth since.<snip>

That's why I'm thankful that my husband is a hunter so we usually have elk and venison in our freezer. We supplement this with grass-fed, free-range beef that we buy from a local rancher and have butchered into our preferred cuts. There are options out there for many of us who are also horrified by slaughterhouse practices but still consume meat.

Now for a story with a happy ending:

I am an RN. I was working on a med-surg unit and had a patient that was admitted with high blood pressure. During his stay, he found out that he had obstructive sleep apnea, fatty liver disease, gastric reflux (which can lead to esophageal cancer), and diabetes. He was young, around 28 years of age, and had three small children. He was told by the ER physician to write his will while in the hospital because his blood pressure was spiking over 200 systolic and 100 diastolic.

I sat with him one evening because he was despondent. The social worker had come and given him information about wills and advanced directives. He had pretty much given up. He said to me that he was sad to leave his three children fatherless and really wished that he could do things over again. I said to him that the problem was all here and patted my stomach. "What do you mean?" he asked. "The problem is all here." I patted my stomach again. He still looked confused and so I repeated my statement, but patted his stomach instead.

"You mean that if I lose all this weight I will possibly live?" he asked. I told him that many health issues are caused by the extra weight that we carry and the lack of exercise. Diabetes and heart issues have been very well linked to obesity. With all the fat in the abdomen, pressure is pushed up on the diaphragm, leading to gastric reflux and obstructive sleep apnea. He was discharged the next morning so I didn't get to say goodbye. I could only hope that he did well.

About one year later, this man came on the floor with his wife and three children in tow. His wife was noticeably pregnant. He had a dozen roses in his hand. I didn't recognize him and walked on by. He called out my name and I immediately recognized the voice. I turned and was totally blown away by how he looked. He was buffed and you could tell that he was a healthy 29 or 30 year old man. They all thanked me, even the children, for helping their dad see that he needed to lose weight in order to live. All his health issues had resolved.

As a nurse, I have seen many people with so many problems from being obese. It is so sad when you have a 16 year old patient who is over 500 pounds and can barely move from bed because of the weight. I have seen many of these same patients order in chicken wings, pizza loaded with meat, etc. or have family members bring in double cheeseburgers, KFC, or other food.

Of couse, obesity will cause problems and that over-consumption of non-nutritious, overly-processed foods aren't good for you. What the heck does that have to do with meat?.

Most people on this site have weight issues. You need to ask yourself what role eating meat played in making you overweight/obese. Many Americans don't have a clue about what one serving of meat looks like which leads to the overconsumption of meat.

Meat made me fat? Hardly. Over-consumption of grain-based carbohydrates did it for me. I actually eat more meat and eggs now than I did while gaining weight. To illustrate, here are some samples of what I typically ate while gaining and now eat while losing:

While Gaining / While Losing
Breakfast: cereal / 3 scrambled eggs

Snack: cheese & crackers or toast with peanut butter / any of the following, sometimes in combination, sometimes alone: peanut butter, small bit of fruit, some raw vegetables, nuts or seeds, hard-boiled egg

Lunch: sandwich with maybe a fruit or veggie on the side / big salad with 3-4 oz. of meat in it or some sliced hard-boiled eggs

Dinner: pasta with meat sauce or typical meat/potato dinner (heavy on the potato, light on the meat) / vegetable stir-fry with about 3-4 oz. meat or poultry or fish, or same quantities of meat with a large serving of vegetables and/or a salad

The only thing that has really changed is the elimination on many days of grain-based products (although I do occasionally have a slice of whole-grain bread, a couple times a week) and the introduction of healthy fats as I now avoid margarine and most vegetable oils except olive oil which I use liberally and I eat real butter now.

Anyway, the point is that I rarely ate meat and filled up on grain-based carbs, cereal and pasta. Now I ate a tad more meat and virtually eliminate those grain-based products. Please tell me what's so unhealthy about that.

If you do not look at the way you used to eat and just continue to eat the same way with only changing the amount of food ingested, you have a good chance of gaining back the weight once you are done dieting. If you dramatically change the way that you live, your whole lifestyle, including cutting out certain things in your diet, such as red meat, sugar, and fats, you have a better chance of losing the weight and keeping it off.

I am not putting meat-eaters down here. I am still eating meat, mostly wild caught fish. Never beef. Very occasionally chicken. But I plan to go back to being a vegetarian. I used to weight 294 pounds and went on a vegetarian diet. I lost over 100 pounds. Unfortunately, I lapsed and went back to eating meat, gaining about 25 pounds. That is what meat does to me.

And I've had the opposite reaction. I lose weight without any hunger as long as I keep the processed foods and grain-based carbs out of my diet (or at least extremely limited) and I feel better, too.

The added bonus is that my cholesterol labs were very, very good. High HDL, low LDL, very low VLDL, and my triglycerides...well, my doctor said he never had seen lower levels. All because of being vegetarian. I can't wait to get back to vegetarian. Actually, why am I waiting. I think I will start today!

I have always been blessed with high HDL, low LDL, and good triglycerides levels which have vastly improved since I have upped my meats and vegetables, greatly decreased grain-based carbs, and upped my healthy fats.

songbyrdsweet

I stopped getting sick so much after my tonsils were removed 2 years ago....

...we weren't meant to have tonsils! :frown:

zambodiare

I've only read the initial post, but I do have a comment. I am a medical biller and am constantly having conversation's with patients that have prostate or breast cancer. It breaks my heart that someone would make that statement that if they did not eat meat or animal products, these people would not be ravaged by disease. So many people are affected by a cancer diagnosis within their families, and unless you can back up your argument with complete and solid proof, then maybe we should be more sensitive. Besides, we are constantly being bombarded by "scientific evidence". Keep in mind that what is apparently good for you today, will most likely be put in the bad status tomorrow.

mangozulu

Sorry! Not giving up meat. I have a pretty good relationship with it. It's also Biblical to eat meat. But that's another arguement

It's only "biblical" to eat meat post flood when "god" gave humans (Noah and family) "permission" to eat flesh (with a few exceptions laid down in Hebrew law). You'll notice that according to scripture, post flood lifespans began declining dramatically from hundreds of years down to an average of "70 or 80" because of "special mightiness". Hmmmmm? So.... Adam and Eve would appear to have been vegan and had the potential to live forever. Perhaps the introduction of meat was part of gods method of revoking the first perfect couples (and descendants) license (or capacity, depending on how you look at it) to live forever? According to the bible that is. Just speculating. BTW. I don't believe any of it, I'm an atheist (not amoral, just atheist). Also a selective omnivore. Just saying':)

YassSpartan

I'm not going to say anything about what's good or not for anyone, we all eat what we want, and aside from the fact that over eating and processed food is what causes obesity and other health factors, the following is very true in my opinion.

(let's say it is organic food and you eat exactly this for the rest of your life)

- Eat both meat and veggies and drink water = live a regular life
- Eat veggies only and drink water = live a regular life
- Eat meat only and drink water = I don't know how long you'll last

paigemarie93

I've only read the initial post, but I do have a comment. I am a medical biller and am constantly having conversation's with patients that have prostate or breast cancer. It breaks my heart that someone would make that statement that if they did not eat meat or animal products, these people would not be ravaged by disease. So many people are affected by a cancer diagnosis within their families, and unless you can back up your argument with complete and solid proof, then maybe we should be more sensitive. Besides, we are constantly being bombarded by "scientific evidence". Keep in mind that what is apparently good for you today, will most likely be put in the bad status tomorrow.

^this, the OP's post was very insensitive.