"Toning" aka fear of lifting heavy

adamlb

Good call!
I just can't understand what anyone hopes to gain lifting a 1kg dumbbell which is barely providing any resistance at all! Lift what feels heavy to you and see some real results

jdavis193

I was doing circuit training videos but Ido strength training now. I do notice that when I was doing circuit training my legs toned up a lot faster than strength training does and I do squats with barbell static lunges, deadlifts and a band. I know they will get there I am on my 4th week. Not every week I did legs twice in a week like I usually do.

jayb0ne

+1 for this thread!

All I can add is for you ladies not to be afraid of coming over to the boys side of the gym. It might look intimidating but the big guys in the freeweights section are usually a pretty friendly bunch when it comes to training. If you go over and stand in the squat rack curling 5lb dumbells for 10 sets of 50 reps, you'll probably get some funny looks. If you go over and get in the squat rack and start squatting - even if it's just with the unloaded bar to work on your form - nobody will have anything but respect for you. Most guys will be happy to give you a spot or even take a look at your form for you if you ask - just don't ask while the guy's midway through a set of bench press!

Jay

Jay wish u were at my gym. .

Funny thing is, the gym I go to is a proper sweaty bodybuilders gym and 95% of the guys in there are the prototypical intimidatingly huge guys. Hell, I was pretty intimidated when I first went (which isn't actually that long ago), but seriously, if you're committed to lifting some heavy (for you) weight, there's nothing but camaraderie and respect around. Very few folk who'll turn down a polite request for a spot or a form check or to work in a few sets.

There's maybe 4 or 5 ladies who come in regularly to our place and they're treated with just as much respect as any of the guys. They come in, lift what they're lifting for that day, grab a shake, shoot the **** a little and get about their day!

I guess if my dirty grunting hole in the wall gym has that level of respect, there's no reason a more commercial gym would be any different, right?

kaydensmom12

BUMP

Rae6503

If you're worried about the men in the weight room read this:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/475493-men-how-do-you-feel-when-you-see-women-in-the

Tonika44137

I've been looking for a thread like this , so THANK YOU!

QUESTION: I've been working out for years and always scared to lift until this year when I realized I contiuned to fluctuate 10-15lbs due to lack of muscle..I LOVE cardio and burn tons of calories but as soon as I fall off I gain because i know I never built in muscle so I've been lifting heaving for the last 3 weeks and can see more definition in my body but no change on the scale and I really want that number to go down as well as my BF%..

Any suggestions how to do this and still tone and build muscle?

LJC44

I've been looking for a thread like this , so THANK YOU!

QUESTION: I've been working out for years and always scared to lift until this year when I realized I contiuned to fluctuate 10-15lbs due to lack of muscle..I LOVE cardio and burn tons of calories but as soon as I fall off I gain because i know I never built in muscle so I've been lifting heaving for the last 3 weeks and can see more definition in my body but no change on the scale and I really want that number to go down as well as my BF%..

Any suggestions how to do this and still tone and build muscle?

I had a trainer years ago who made me overcome my fear of heavy lifting. I was paranoid about looking too thick but it actually changed my body so much. I am not an expert but I do know what heavy lifting won't do, and that is turn a woman into a body-builder. It is ok to vary weight too! One week lift heavy and the next week lift lighter...try different things! Add your cardio in after lifting on some days (intervals work!)

LJC44

Ladies... please take a look at my profile picture. I am not really looking to lose any more weight but I am looking to reduce my body fat a little more.

I like looking like a woman - and I think my curves are beautiful.

If you looked at my pic and thought that my routine includes "toning" you would be wrong. My routine includes lifting weights heavy enough that 10 reps are difficult to complete. I have been at it for a few months now. I have stopped losing weight but I am going through pants sizes faster than my paychecks arrive.

Please don't be afaid of lifting weights. It will not make you look like a man and will very like cause drastic shrinking - not bulking.


Throw away those pink dumbells and join me in picking up things made of metal and solid rubber.

:flowerforyou:

ETA: my husband has proclaimed that our family's new favorite past time is punching me in the stomach. he wasn't prepared for what he'd hit the first time and honestly hurt his hand. HAHA

Agree 100%

thefuzz1290

LorinaLynn

I've been looking for a thread like this , so THANK YOU!

QUESTION: I've been working out for years and always scared to lift until this year when I realized I contiuned to fluctuate 10-15lbs due to lack of muscle..I LOVE cardio and burn tons of calories but as soon as I fall off I gain because i know I never built in muscle so I've been lifting heaving for the last 3 weeks and can see more definition in my body but no change on the scale and I really want that number to go down as well as my BF%..

Any suggestions how to do this and still tone and build muscle?

Forget the scale. Seriously. Go by photos and how your clothes fit.

Check my profile pic. I was 135 in June, then lost about 10 more by October, and between strength training, going on maintenance, eating more protein, and then an injury that required self-medication with chocolate and rest for a little over a month, I gained some back. I'm currently hovering around 133. I'm the same size, if not a little smaller, than I was at 125 in October.

There's still a part of me, the stupid side, that sometimes thinks, "Poop. It's been eight months since June, and I'm only down 2 pounds." Then the logical side pushes the stupid side out of the way and says, "Yeah, but look at your butt and waist and shoulders!"

RunHardBeStrong

Totally agree. I went down a pants size in the last month but have only lost 1#. All due to lifting heavy (well, heavy for me, not really heavy yet). And I only do it once or twice a week and do HIIT and other exercising on other days.

Same here as for the weight loss. I've only lost 7 lbs lifting heavy but have lost 2 pant sizes and my shape has changed so much for the better!

questionablemethods

I've been looking for a thread like this , so THANK YOU!

QUESTION: I've been working out for years and always scared to lift until this year when I realized I contiuned to fluctuate 10-15lbs due to lack of muscle..I LOVE cardio and burn tons of calories but as soon as I fall off I gain because i know I never built in muscle so I've been lifting heaving for the last 3 weeks and can see more definition in my body but no change on the scale and I really want that number to go down as well as my BF%..

Any suggestions how to do this and still tone and build muscle?

Forget the scale. Seriously. Go by photos and how your clothes fit.

Agreed. And I would really think about why you want the number to go down so much. I think that if you are holding onto excess unhealthy fat, it will go away when you are exercising and eating right. Then, the number will go down as a result (unless you are already in a healthy range, in which case, the number might not go down and might go up). The number itself doesn't tell you a whole lot.

Leigh Peele has a helpful free ebook download that talks more about this: http://www.screwthescales.com

lodicox7

So I have a question for you heavy lifters, because I have long been interested in trying this but also afraid. I have a congenital lumbar spine abnormality that makes me extremely prone to lower back injuries. I actually spent July through December of last year in physical therapy for a hyperextension stress fracture that flat out wouldn't heal. It's still not 100%. It's probably not even 85%.

It's taken me a long time to be able to get back to the point where I can exercise again, and I've been doing well with long walks/jogs and the 30 day shred recently. I still have to adapt some of the exercises so I don't reinjure myself. Basically, long story short, I'm not able to do heavy lifting in the form of squats, lunges, dead lifts, or pretty much anything that directly engages my core. Even if I developed perfect form, I'm not going to risk hurting myself as it only takes doing something wrong one time to end up back where I was. Is it still worth my time to lift heavy on what would end up being just chest and extremities? Or am I better off sticking with the whole body workouts like 30DS?

questionablemethods

So I have a question for you heavy lifters, because I have long been interested in trying this but also afraid. I have a congenital lumbar spine abnormality that makes me extremely prone to lower back injuries. I actually spent July through December of last year in physical therapy for a hyperextension stress fracture that flat out wouldn't heal. It's still not 100%. It's probably not even 85%.

It's taken me a long time to be able to get back to the point where I can exercise again, and I've been doing well with long walks/jogs and the 30 day shred recently. I still have to adapt some of the exercises so I don't reinjure myself. Basically, long story short, I'm not able to do heavy lifting in the form of squats, lunges, dead lifts, or pretty much anything that directly engages my core. Even if I developed perfect form, I'm not going to risk hurting myself as it only takes doing something wrong one time to end up back where I was. Is it still worth my time to lift heavy on what would end up being just chest and extremities? Or am I better off sticking with the whole body workouts like 30DS?

That seems like a question that is probably better directed toward a physical therapist or someone well-versed in issues like what you are facing.

lodicox7

So I have a question for you heavy lifters, because I have long been interested in trying this but also afraid. I have a congenital lumbar spine abnormality that makes me extremely prone to lower back injuries. I actually spent July through December of last year in physical therapy for a hyperextension stress fracture that flat out wouldn't heal. It's still not 100%. It's probably not even 85%.

It's taken me a long time to be able to get back to the point where I can exercise again, and I've been doing well with long walks/jogs and the 30 day shred recently. I still have to adapt some of the exercises so I don't reinjure myself. Basically, long story short, I'm not able to do heavy lifting in the form of squats, lunges, dead lifts, or pretty much anything that directly engages my core. Even if I developed perfect form, I'm not going to risk hurting myself as it only takes doing something wrong one time to end up back where I was. Is it still worth my time to lift heavy on what would end up being just chest and extremities? Or am I better off sticking with the whole body workouts like 30DS?

That seems like a question that is probably better directed toward a physical therapist or someone well-versed in issues like what you are facing.

I work in healthcare and I'm pretty confident in adapting exercises for myself. I guess what I'm asking is if anyone has seen results with heavy lifting without doing exercises that directly engage the core.

questionablemethods

So I have a question for you heavy lifters, because I have long been interested in trying this but also afraid. I have a congenital lumbar spine abnormality that makes me extremely prone to lower back injuries. I actually spent July through December of last year in physical therapy for a hyperextension stress fracture that flat out wouldn't heal. It's still not 100%. It's probably not even 85%.

It's taken me a long time to be able to get back to the point where I can exercise again, and I've been doing well with long walks/jogs and the 30 day shred recently. I still have to adapt some of the exercises so I don't reinjure myself. Basically, long story short, I'm not able to do heavy lifting in the form of squats, lunges, dead lifts, or pretty much anything that directly engages my core. Even if I developed perfect form, I'm not going to risk hurting myself as it only takes doing something wrong one time to end up back where I was. Is it still worth my time to lift heavy on what would end up being just chest and extremities? Or am I better off sticking with the whole body workouts like 30DS?

That seems like a question that is probably better directed toward a physical therapist or someone well-versed in issues like what you are facing.

I work in healthcare and I'm pretty confident in adapting exercises for myself. I guess what I'm asking is if anyone has seen results with heavy lifting without doing exercises that directly engage the core.

Guess I misunderstood the question before. I imagine that doing what you can would be better than nothing? I can't speak from personal experience, but I know people who mainly use the machines in the gyms for their strength training and, while they might not have the "optimal" program, they seem pretty fit and strong. 30DS seems mostly like cardio and muscular endurance work. Why not try doing both?

JNick77

So I have a question for you heavy lifters, because I have long been interested in trying this but also afraid. I have a congenital lumbar spine abnormality that makes me extremely prone to lower back injuries. I actually spent July through December of last year in physical therapy for a hyperextension stress fracture that flat out wouldn't heal. It's still not 100%. It's probably not even 85%.

It's taken me a long time to be able to get back to the point where I can exercise again, and I've been doing well with long walks/jogs and the 30 day shred recently. I still have to adapt some of the exercises so I don't reinjure myself. Basically, long story short, I'm not able to do heavy lifting in the form of squats, lunges, dead lifts, or pretty much anything that directly engages my core. Even if I developed perfect form, I'm not going to risk hurting myself as it only takes doing something wrong one time to end up back where I was. Is it still worth my time to lift heavy on what would end up being just chest and extremities? Or am I better off sticking with the whole body workouts like 30DS?

That seems like a question that is probably better directed toward a physical therapist or someone well-versed in issues like what you are facing.

I work in healthcare and I'm pretty confident in adapting exercises for myself. I guess what I'm asking is if anyone has seen results with heavy lifting without doing exercises that directly engage the core.

I don't think any exercise is able to replicate what you get from a deadlift or back squat but I guess worst case you can always use some of the machines. If your gym has Hammer Strength equipment those are about as close as you'll get to free weight lifting without actually lifting free weights. Have you considered or tried a weight lifting belt?

tabinmaine

goin' to the boys' side tomorrow for the first time beeotches! i'm so stoked :glasses:

I love the boys side of the gym..... it's where all of the eye candy is hahaha

Tonika44137

I still need the scale to go down in order for me to get into my healthy bmi zone but i understand what you're saying

thank you all for this

Tonika44137

I've been looking for a thread like this , so THANK YOU!

QUESTION: I've been working out for years and always scared to lift until this year when I realized I contiuned to fluctuate 10-15lbs due to lack of muscle..I LOVE cardio and burn tons of calories but as soon as I fall off I gain because i know I never built in muscle so I've been lifting heaving for the last 3 weeks and can see more definition in my body but no change on the scale and I really want that number to go down as well as my BF%..

Any suggestions how to do this and still tone and build muscle?

Forget the scale. Seriously. Go by photos and how your clothes fit.

Agreed. And I would really think about why you want the number to go down so much. I think that if you are holding onto excess unhealthy fat, it will go away when you are exercising and eating right. Then, the number will go down as a result (unless you are already in a healthy range, in which case, the number might not go down and might go up). The number itself doesn't tell you a whole lot.

Leigh Peele has a helpful free ebook download that talks more about this: http://www.screwthescales.com

Thank you for that source...I still need the scale to go down in order for me to get into my healthy bmi zone

Jeeenjohnson19

im definitely going to be doing this more now, I've done SOME weights, but not a lot. I have noticed however since I have been doing sit ups, jeans are fitting much better in this past month and ive only lost about 7lbs? Also push ups are definitely making a difference to my "bingo wings" haha!

Tara4boys

bump

machinegunkate

Also, I have to say, after having a quick look through the thread a few of you are being harsh and and over-critical toward people who are saying they have never done it before and feel a little intimidated by it. ****ty attitudes that aren't needed on a support site, especially toward people who are obviously interested in trying this new venture.

Probably because these people are clearly "having a quick look through the thread" and hitting Reply before seeing that their questions have been answered 5 to 6 times. But just to do it again:

Starting Strength
Stronglifts
New Rules of Lifting for Women
Bodybuilding.com
Talk to a trainer at your gym

All of these are resources easy to research online and handle oneself to get going.

honestly, I cant wait for the people that are too lazy to read first to post on bodybuilding.com.... they will get eaten alive.
its a great source of info.. but you dont want to go on there posting BS the same way its done on here. lol.

Lame. Both of you. I bumped to read later - that was at the start of my post. My 'quick look through the thread' was because 1. I'm interested. and 2. I didn't have the time to read through the thread properly at that moment. Screaming kids etc. And I don't know what questions you're referring to that were answered "5 or 6 times", but my post was actually referring to the many condescending remarks being made whenever a woman said she felt intimidated by weights - a common and natural feeling to have if unfamiliar with weights I should think. I'm not even sure why you posted those resources to me, I never asked for them. I ordered NROL4W the other week, still waiting for it in the mail. In the meantime I like to read about women's personal experiences with lifting, if that's mkay with you.

MrDude_1

Also, I have to say, after having a quick look through the thread a few of you are being harsh and and over-critical toward people who are saying they have never done it before and feel a little intimidated by it. ****ty attitudes that aren't needed on a support site, especially toward people who are obviously interested in trying this new venture.

Probably because these people are clearly "having a quick look through the thread" and hitting Reply before seeing that their questions have been answered 5 to 6 times. But just to do it again:

Starting Strength
Stronglifts
New Rules of Lifting for Women
Bodybuilding.com
Talk to a trainer at your gym

All of these are resources easy to research online and handle oneself to get going.

honestly, I cant wait for the people that are too lazy to read first to post on bodybuilding.com.... they will get eaten alive.
its a great source of info.. but you dont want to go on there posting BS the same way its done on here. lol.

Lame. Both of you. I bumped to read later - that was at the start of my post. My 'quick look through the thread' was because 1. I'm interested. and 2. I didn't have the time to read through the thread properly at that moment. Screaming kids etc. And I don't know what questions you're referring to that were answered "5 or 6 times", but my post was actually referring to the many condescending remarks being made whenever a woman said she felt intimidated by weights - a common and natural feeling to have if unfamiliar with weights I should think. I'm not even sure why you posted those resources to me, I never asked for them. I ordered NROL4W the other week, still waiting for it in the mail. In the meantime I like to read about women's personal experiences with lifting, if that's mkay with you.

If you dont have time to do it properly, just wait until later to reply.
And dont infer we're being sexist... we also make condescending remarks whenever a man says he feels intimidated by weights.
We will continue to do so until you pick up the weight and just do it, or go away crying.... To be perfectly honest, if you're crying about something someone said on the internet, we probably dont want to hang out around you anyway.



"Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder, nobody wanna lift heavy weights" - Ronnie Coleman

dad106

I just picked up a barbell for the first time last night(after doing a little over a year of machines, dumbbells and body weight exercises) and I can honestly say I can't wait to try again with my trainer next week.

Lifting weights has made me go from a size 10 to a 4.. Even though I weigh the exact same as I did 4 years ago, when I was wearing my size 10's.

machinegunkate

Also, I have to say, after having a quick look through the thread a few of you are being harsh and and over-critical toward people who are saying they have never done it before and feel a little intimidated by it. ****ty attitudes that aren't needed on a support site, especially toward people who are obviously interested in trying this new venture.

Probably because these people are clearly "having a quick look through the thread" and hitting Reply before seeing that their questions have been answered 5 to 6 times. But just to do it again:

Starting Strength
Stronglifts
New Rules of Lifting for Women
Bodybuilding.com
Talk to a trainer at your gym

All of these are resources easy to research online and handle oneself to get going.

honestly, I cant wait for the people that are too lazy to read first to post on bodybuilding.com.... they will get eaten alive.
its a great source of info.. but you dont want to go on there posting BS the same way its done on here. lol.

Lame. Both of you. I bumped to read later - that was at the start of my post. My 'quick look through the thread' was because 1. I'm interested. and 2. I didn't have the time to read through the thread properly at that moment. Screaming kids etc. And I don't know what questions you're referring to that were answered "5 or 6 times", but my post was actually referring to the many condescending remarks being made whenever a woman said she felt intimidated by weights - a common and natural feeling to have if unfamiliar with weights I should think. I'm not even sure why you posted those resources to me, I never asked for them. I ordered NROL4W the other week, still waiting for it in the mail. In the meantime I like to read about women's personal experiences with lifting, if that's mkay with you.

If you dont have time to do it properly, just wait until later to reply.
And dont infer we're being sexist... we also make condescending remarks whenever a man says he feels intimidated by weights.
We will continue to do so until you pick up the weight and just do it, or go away crying.... To be perfectly honest, if you're crying about something someone said on the internet, we probably dont want to hang out around you anyway.



"Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder, nobody wanna lift heavy weights" - Ronnie Coleman

Ugh. Lame again. I'm not crying at all, bozo, just simply making my point.

MrDude_1

Also, I have to say, after having a quick look through the thread a few of you are being harsh and and over-critical toward people who are saying they have never done it before and feel a little intimidated by it. ****ty attitudes that aren't needed on a support site, especially toward people who are obviously interested in trying this new venture.

Probably because these people are clearly "having a quick look through the thread" and hitting Reply before seeing that their questions have been answered 5 to 6 times. But just to do it again:

Starting Strength
Stronglifts
New Rules of Lifting for Women
Bodybuilding.com
Talk to a trainer at your gym

All of these are resources easy to research online and handle oneself to get going.

honestly, I cant wait for the people that are too lazy to read first to post on bodybuilding.com.... they will get eaten alive.
its a great source of info.. but you dont want to go on there posting BS the same way its done on here. lol.

Lame. Both of you. I bumped to read later - that was at the start of my post. My 'quick look through the thread' was because 1. I'm interested. and 2. I didn't have the time to read through the thread properly at that moment. Screaming kids etc. And I don't know what questions you're referring to that were answered "5 or 6 times", but my post was actually referring to the many condescending remarks being made whenever a woman said she felt intimidated by weights - a common and natural feeling to have if unfamiliar with weights I should think. I'm not even sure why you posted those resources to me, I never asked for them. I ordered NROL4W the other week, still waiting for it in the mail. In the meantime I like to read about women's personal experiences with lifting, if that's mkay with you.

If you dont have time to do it properly, just wait until later to reply.
And dont infer we're being sexist... we also make condescending remarks whenever a man says he feels intimidated by weights.
We will continue to do so until you pick up the weight and just do it, or go away crying.... To be perfectly honest, if you're crying about something someone said on the internet, we probably dont want to hang out around you anyway.



"Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder, nobody wanna lift heavy weights" - Ronnie Coleman

Ugh. Lame again. I'm not crying at all, bozo, just simply making my point.

First, this reply isn't just for you. I am going to copy it and paste it every time this happens from now on.

You know, I'm literally on 100s of forums, mostly for cool stuff. Forums for various motorcycles, cars, jeeps, jet skis, guns,

computers, electronics, games, etc...
But its only on the "health" forums, (not even the bodybuilding ones) that you get these "mother" women that try to herd conversation

to what they think the proper convention is... "oooh stay on topic", "oooh that’s rude", "oooh be nice" (and my favorite) "don’t be

mean, we're supposed to support people, even if they're wrong"

No.
I’m a guy. Talking to other guys, and girls that are cool enough to appreciate the fact that I am going to treat everyone equally...

as another guy. I am not going to be especially nice just for you... but I am not going to be especially mean..
We will all just continue do everything exactly like we do, and if you really can’t stand that, get off the damn internet.

TluvK

Also, I have to say, after having a quick look through the thread a few of you are being harsh and and over-critical toward people who are saying they have never done it before and feel a little intimidated by it. ****ty attitudes that aren't needed on a support site, especially toward people who are obviously interested in trying this new venture.

Probably because these people are clearly "having a quick look through the thread" and hitting Reply before seeing that their questions have been answered 5 to 6 times. But just to do it again:

Starting Strength
Stronglifts
New Rules of Lifting for Women
Bodybuilding.com
Talk to a trainer at your gym

All of these are resources easy to research online and handle oneself to get going.

honestly, I cant wait for the people that are too lazy to read first to post on bodybuilding.com.... they will get eaten alive.
its a great source of info.. but you dont want to go on there posting BS the same way its done on here. lol.

Lame. Both of you. I bumped to read later - that was at the start of my post. My 'quick look through the thread' was because 1. I'm interested. and 2. I didn't have the time to read through the thread properly at that moment. Screaming kids etc. And I don't know what questions you're referring to that were answered "5 or 6 times", but my post was actually referring to the many condescending remarks being made whenever a woman said she felt intimidated by weights - a common and natural feeling to have if unfamiliar with weights I should think. I'm not even sure why you posted those resources to me, I never asked for them. I ordered NROL4W the other week, still waiting for it in the mail. In the meantime I like to read about women's personal experiences with lifting, if that's mkay with you.

If you dont have time to do it properly, just wait until later to reply.
And dont infer we're being sexist... we also make condescending remarks whenever a man says he feels intimidated by weights.
We will continue to do so until you pick up the weight and just do it, or go away crying.... To be perfectly honest, if you're crying about something someone said on the internet, we probably dont want to hang out around you anyway.



"Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder, nobody wanna lift heavy weights" - Ronnie Coleman

Ugh. Lame again. I'm not crying at all, bozo, just simply making my point.

First, this reply isn't just for you. I am going to copy it and paste it every time this happens from now on.

You know, I'm literally on 100s of forums, mostly for cool stuff. Forums for various motorcycles, cars, jeeps, jet skis, guns,

computers, electronics, games, etc...
But its only on the "health" forums, (not even the bodybuilding ones) that you get these "mother" women that try to herd conversation

to what they think the proper convention is... "oooh stay on topic", "oooh that’s rude", "oooh be nice" (and my favorite) "don’t be

mean, we're supposed to support people, even if they're wrong"

No.
I’m a guy. Talking to other guys, and girls that are cool enough to appreciate the fact that I am going to treat everyone equally...

as another guy. I am not going to be especially nice just for you... but I am not going to be especially mean..
We will all just continue do everything exactly like we do, and if you really can’t stand that, get off the damn internet.

I'm just going to jump into the fray here. I don't think it's fair for you to speak for others:

"To be perfectly honest, if you're crying about something someone said on the internet, we probably dont want to hang out around you anyway."

Really? You sound like a playground bully.

"And dont infer we're being sexist... we also make condescending remarks whenever a man says he feels intimidated by weights.
We will continue to do so until you pick up the weight and just do it, or go away crying.... "

This is in NO way helpful. This is like telling someone who has never driven a car, to just suck it up go for it.


Also, I'd like to add that I AM a strong woman who lifts heavy and I don't mind at all answering questions about it over and over again. I appreciate that lifting weights CAN seem intimidating to someone who hasn't done it before. Also, not everyone has all the time in the world to hang out and throughly read messages on internet boards. You have successfully turned a thread that could have helped a ton of people into a popularity party putting the cool kids who lift weights in one corner and everyone else feeling like they don't belong. Stop the jerkiness.

bettyboop573

well said and great advice

aprilgicker

I but you take jumps better too. Beautiful horse