Ugh, The National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance

katwj76

“We’re appalled to learn that Disney, a traditional hallmark of childhood happiness and joy, has fallen under the shadow of negativity and discrimination,” the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance said in a statement.

Well, fat people are jollier.

My conspiracy theory for the day: I wouldn't be surprised to find out that this organization is funded by the drug companies.

ArroganceInStep

"The National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance."

Yeeeeah...OR how about people put down the fatty foods and get on the treadmill?

It's not rocket science. Your health suffers when you're fat, so no, the health insurance companies aren't going to pay for it (don't you wish you lived in Canada now, suckers?). Your work suffers since high fat intake makes energy levels suffer, thus production suffers.

I don't see the problem here. I think the Disney World exhibit was awesome. I see an obese person in a McDonald's drive-through and I'm like "...Okay, come on. Walk across the street to the grocery store and pick up a sandwich and a water instead." OR!!! The best one is when you see a very large person in a grocery store buying ridiculous amounts of pop, huge bags of chips, massive amounts of beef, very few veggies and practically no fruit.

I have hugely obese family members. I know their eating habits and I know their lifestyle habits. There is no excuse for it. The human body isn't 'meant' to be fat, it's meant to be lean in order for us to run after our prey. No one can convince me that 400lbs is the next evolutionary step.

Come on. Let's use some common sense here. Stop getting offended and use your anger/rage/pride/whatever to work out more and to make healthier lifestyle choices.

...

As for overweight kids, that's the parent's fault, hands down. You don't look at an overweight dog and think "Oh, that dog needs to make better lifestyle choices." Come on. It's completely the fault of the owner for not feeding the dog properly OR exercising it enough. Same with kids. That is SOLELY the fault of the parents. If a kid can question their parents for feeding them junk food all the time, maybe the parents will start buying better food. If they don't want their kid to get teased and to make healthy food decisions, then they need to start doing it themselves and stop making their child suffer.

Negative reinforcement doesn't work as well as you think it does. If stopping there kids from getting teased was enough incentive to get parents to provide healthier examples for their children, don't you think they would have already? At that point don't you think it becomes the useful for outside influences to do their part and try to break this vicious cycle?

It's easy to judge the actions of others, but can you honestly say you would accept positively such criticism from strangers on your own life habits? Would you actively change your ways just because someone else wanted you to? Don't you think there are better ways to foster healthier lifestyles in others?

katwj76

Especially the drug companies that make the psychotropic drugs that just pile on the pounds.

FitLink

Primarily we're on the same page in this discussion, but if he / you / I should be "held accountable," who do you think should do the "holding?" All arguments about "insurance rates" and such are bogus, because when people make these arguments they always advocate banning whatever they have targeted and ignore all the other things (tanning salons, motorcycles, cigarettes, living in cities, ... the list of things is endless) that affect rates. Am I considered responsible only if my BMI is in the normal range, I never tan, I get rid of my motorcycles, I live in the country, I don't smoke... Do you see where this is going? It's about liberty and privacy. If he can tell me my weight is his business today because it's associated with health problems that shorten life, can he tell me tomorrow that I must get rid of my motorcycles because riding them is associated with a shorter lifespan? Can he tell people who tan at a salon several times a week they must stop for the same reason? I live in the country. City living is associated with some expensive health problems due to air quality and other issues. Can I force you all to live in the country as I do, because it's irresponsible to risk the serious health problems associated with city life? In the end, all the supposed health arguments come down to justifications of "I don't approve," or "It's gross." What it is, is no more anyone else's business than my motorcycles or where you live, or whether she tans.

I agree that the exhibit is ineffective. But that isn't ALL it is. And even if shaming were effective, the exhibit isn't accurate in portraying all the villains as fat and all the heros as skinny. It would still only shame SOME of the visitors whose lifestyles were unhealthy, and would encourage those skinny-but-unhealthy visitors to bully the fat visitors, whether or not they were unhealthy. That might even discourage healthy eating on the part of the skinny-but-unhealthy visitors. It would still be unacceptable, even if it were effective.

When I say held accountable, I mean to yourself. At the end of the day it doesn't matter to me if you (not an attack at you fitlink just making a point), or some organization accepts me for who I am, what matters is my own self image and that of the people whose opinions really do matter to me. Those are the ones whose acceptance I need.

I'm acknowledging that 'I'm fat but it's not my fault because...' is just as pointless an argument as 'you're wrong because you're fat'. Rubbing someone's nose in the problem isn't going to help fix it, in my opinion, but neither is fixating on why problems are beyond your control. What matters is how to move forward, how to progress and improve. And to that end I think the exhibit is counterproductive.

But nothing I've said in any post indicates that that I believe in fixating on problems beyond my control. But, believe me, I've tried ignoring problems beyond my control and that sure as he11 doesn't work. I'm not able to walk without the crutch, or without severe pain, if I just deny them. I end up falling, being injured, and having a bigger mess than I started with. SO I do pay attention to these things, even though they are well beyond my control.

I still believe that shaming would be WRONG, even if it were effective.

thinmintme

The exhibit needs to be changed, somehow.
I'm all for encouraging daily physical activity and healthy eating habits BUT there is such a thing as being an unhealthy, inactive 'thin' person. Some people like to call it 'skinny fat'. Just because genetics keeps someone from putting on too much weight doesn't mean they're not clogging their arteries, raising their blood sugar or practically letting their muscles atrophy from the amount of time they spend NOT doing something that involves a great amount of movement.
But society doesn't spread that around. They instead only use obese individuals as an example of unhealthy eating and exercise habits which does nothing more than tell someone 'If you're within this BMI range, there's absolutely nothing wrong with you but if you're not, you're a lazy, gluttonous, disgusting member of our society. "

And I'm sorry but there is no excuse for the shaming. That rarely results in something positive. What you get from shaming someone is usually someone who overeats or starves/purges.
A lot of good that'll do for the children in the end.

FitLink

Especially the drug companies that make the psychotropic drugs that just pile on the pounds.

Ugh. Yes. Might I suggest the book, "Anatomy of an Epidemic: Magic Bullets, Psychiatric Drugs, and the Astonishing Rise of Mental Illness in America" by Robert Whitaker? He looks seriously at these medications, their documented effectiveness and side-effects, and suggests some compelling alternatives.

ArroganceInStep

But nothing I've said in any post indicates that that I believe in fixating on problems beyond my control. But, believe me, I've tried ignoring problems beyond my control and that sure as he11 doesn't work. I'm not able to walk without the crutch, or without severe pain, if I just deny them. I end up falling, being injured, and having a bigger mess than I started with. SO I do pay attention to these things, even though they are well beyond my control.

I still believe that shaming would be WRONG, even if it were effective.

That's a fair point. I personally believe that shaming is wrong as well, but if I honestly thought it were effective I would be more inclined to consent to such behavior. As I said, I think it's wrong, but if it works I'd at least have to consider it as a viable option.

I was also not saying you were trying point blame elsewhere, I was simply acknowledging points made by others when responding to your question of accountability. And please don't think I was downplaying your injuries. That wasn't my intention at all. If you're doing what you can do to be healthier, and are happy with the steps you've taken, more power to you.

wackyfunster

[post removed]

FitLink

"The National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance."

Yeeeeah...OR how about people put down the fatty foods and get on the treadmill?

It's not rocket science. Your health suffers when you're fat, so no, the health insurance companies aren't going to pay for it (don't you wish you lived in Canada now, suckers?). Your work suffers since high fat intake makes energy levels suffer, thus production suffers.

I don't see the problem here. I think the Disney World exhibit was awesome. I see an obese person in a McDonald's drive-through and I'm like "...Okay, come on. Walk across the street to the grocery store and pick up a sandwich and a water instead." OR!!! The best one is when you see a very large person in a grocery store buying ridiculous amounts of pop, huge bags of chips, massive amounts of beef, very few veggies and practically no fruit.

I have hugely obese family members. I know their eating habits and I know their lifestyle habits. There is no excuse for it. The human body isn't 'meant' to be fat, it's meant to be lean in order for us to run after our prey. No one can convince me that 400lbs is the next evolutionary step.

Come on. Let's use some common sense here. Stop getting offended and use your anger/rage/pride/whatever to work out more and to make healthier lifestyle choices.

...

As for overweight kids, that's the parent's fault, hands down. You don't look at an overweight dog and think "Oh, that dog needs to make better lifestyle choices." Come on. It's completely the fault of the owner for not feeding the dog properly OR exercising it enough. Same with kids. That is SOLELY the fault of the parents. If a kid can question their parents for feeding them junk food all the time, maybe the parents will start buying better food. If they don't want their kid to get teased and to make healthy food decisions, then they need to start doing it themselves and stop making their child suffer.

Negative reinforcement doesn't work as well as you think it does. If stopping there kids from getting teased was enough incentive to get parents to provide healthier examples for their children, don't you think they would have already? At that point don't you think it becomes the useful for outside influences to do their part and try to break this vicious cycle?

It's easy to judge the actions of others, but can you honestly say you would accept positively such criticism from strangers on your own life habits? Would you actively change your ways just because someone else wanted you to? Don't you think there are better ways to foster healthier lifestyles in others?

The problem is (and my degree is in learning theory) that people misuse the word "negative reinforcement." It doesn't mean what you think it means, and it's NOT the opposite of positive reinforcement. That's negative punishment. And the words positive and negative are used in the same sense as they are in mathematics, NOT as a value judgement.

Positive reinforcement--The application of a desired stimulus in response to a desired behavior. Child gets to pick a book to be read to him when he gets ready for bed when told.

Negative reinforcement--The withdrawal of a desired stimulus in response to an undesirable behavior. Child is not allowed to play with a favorite toy because s/he bit her/his brother.

Positive punishment--The application of an undesirable stimulus in response to an undesired behavior. Child is spanked for running into the street.

Negative punishment--The withdrawal of a undesirable stimulus in response to a desired behavior. Child is not permitted to leave her/his room until s/he apologizes for biting her/his brother.

Psychologists have demonstrated that reinforcement, positive or negative, results in long-term behavior change, and punishment, positive or negative, stops immediate behavior, but leaves no lasting change.

Shame is definitely undesired and therefor falls into the "punishment" category. If you shame a child until he loses weight, that's negative punishment, and if you shame a child because he got fat, that's positive punishment. Either MIGHT result in a little temporary weight loss--short term. Neither will result in a permanent desirable change.

FitLink

But nothing I've said in any post indicates that that I believe in fixating on problems beyond my control. But, believe me, I've tried ignoring problems beyond my control and that sure as he11 doesn't work. I'm not able to walk without the crutch, or without severe pain, if I just deny them. I end up falling, being injured, and having a bigger mess than I started with. SO I do pay attention to these things, even though they are well beyond my control.

I still believe that shaming would be WRONG, even if it were effective.

That's a fair point. I personally believe that shaming is wrong as well, but if I honestly thought it were effective I would be more inclined to consent to such behavior. As I said, I think it's wrong, but if it works I'd at least have to consider it as a viable option.

I was also not saying you were trying point blame elsewhere, I was simply acknowledging points made by others when responding to your question of accountability. And please don't think I was downplaying your injuries. That wasn't my intention at all. If you're doing what you can do to be healthier, and are happy with the steps you've taken, more power to you.

And I thank you for your words. Don't misconstrue, because we basically agree. But I can't consider shaming, even if it were effective, and I have another recent post that itemizes why it isn't and can't be. But I can't accept that the end ever justifies the means. On this thread, several people have talked of "slippery slopes" and I can't actually think of a slipperier slope than that. And because I agree with you, like and respect you, it's important to me that you understand why, for me, this a HUGE moral issue. Fat, OTOH? Not a moral issue.

busywaterbending

I have a confession to make>

fat people really really scare me.

What if they sit on me? One did when I was a kid and I passed out under her. True story. Fat people are scary. And it's so hard for them to get back up....

FitLink

What bothers me is that there are some kids out there that eat right and exercise, but are still "chunky" because they haven't reached puberty or their growth spurt yet. These kids get teased for their weight all the time. I understand the need for an organization that promotes acceptance, but why not acceptance in general not just for fat people? Acceptance for any and all differences, especially with kids.

Because lots of groups promote the acceptance of a particular trait. It's to raise awareness of just the things you mention here. There are groups who support equality for left handers (and the world really does put barriers in the way of left handers), gay people, black people, tall people, short people... They all advocate treating ALL people equally, but each highlights the problems their own group faces. NAAFA is the focus here because some people just discovered that this group, which has been around for over forty years, even exists, and are offended by it's very existence.

FitLink

I have a confession to make>

fat people really really scare me.

What if they sit on me? One did when I was a kid and I passed out under her. True story. Fat people are scary. And it's so hard for them to get back up....

I have a confession. Males really scare me. What if they overpower me? One did when I was twelve, and beat the crap out of me. True story. A teacher had to drive me home.

Can we make them all go away???

HonkyTonks

Ugh...I am done with this thread. The "Don't Blame Me" crowd will always look for excuses to their current condition. As long as it doesn't make them feel like they have any responsibility for their actions. Sorry to burst your bubble but you are responsible for the life you lead. I'm not advocating that fat kids be bullied. I'm asking for ACCOUNTABILITY. Yes, we all know skinny isn't always healthy, but I don't know what the fu*k healthy fat is!! If you are what is considered fat by the general population then eventually it will have some negative impact on your health.

To those of you who wish to point the finger at something else for your condition I say good luck! You are going to need it. There is no participation trophy for living life.


129021931756178550 by goldspursX3, on Flickr

What you've been doing is saying we should point and laugh and make fun of fat people, or yell at them or shame them or treat them differently. I don't think fat people are saying they aren't to blame for their problem. They are merely saying that the approach of discrimination and hate is not an effective one. As I said, none of the relentless teasing in high school about my weight helped me. It took a good support network (nice friends) and a job that made me happy to get me in a mental state that I was ready to care about my health and my life again.

zephyrionitis

I have no problem with fat people.
I have a problem with things like the NAAFA. I don't believe we should accept a lifestyle that is detrimental and kills almost 300,000 people a year. I have a problem with hambeasts.
It's saddening to think that people are getting so soft and buttmad about everything.

FitLink

Ugh...I am done with this thread. The "Don't Blame Me" crowd will always look for excuses to their current condition. As long as it doesn't make them feel like they have any responsibility for their actions. Sorry to burst your bubble but you are responsible for the life you lead. I'm not advocating that fat kids be bullied. I'm asking for ACCOUNTABILITY. Yes, we all know skinny isn't always healthy, but I don't know what the fu*k healthy fat is!! If you are what is considered fat by the general population then eventually it will have some negative impact on your health.

To those of you who wish to point the finger at something else for your condition I say good luck! You are going to need it. There is no participation trophy for living life.


129021931756178550 by goldspursX3, on Flickr

And you know what? I have to address this picture as well. I have to assume you think this proves something about Kirstie Alley. That she isn't taking responsibility for what you see as her health or some equally stupid thing. You know what? We really don't know anything about actors based on their roles. If we did, we'd have to reconcile that Kirstie played a "Fat Actress" AND she played a vulcan/romulan hybrid on Star Trek. But the fact is, she's an actress. She gets paid to be someone she's not. What's worse, this pic is from "I CAN HAZ CHEEZBURGER." So the words on it were added by someone else, in an attempt to be funny. It's not something Kirstie said, it's something intended to be humorous by belittling someone. Should I assume that the cats also said the things on their pictures? Can I base my opinions of their fitness as a pet on the captions? Because Kirstie had as much control over the caption here as the cats did.

The picture was just another attack on people you don't approve of and think you have the right to control.

ArroganceInStep

The problem is (and my degree is in learning theory) that people misuse the word "negative reinforcement." It doesn't mean what you think it means, and it's NOT the opposite of positive reinforcement. That's negative punishment. And the words positive and negative are used in the same sense as they are in mathematics, NOT as a value judgement.

Positive reinforcement--The application of a desired stimulus in response to a desired behavior. Child gets to pick a book to be read to him when he gets ready for bed when told.

Negative reinforcement--The withdrawal of a desired stimulus in response to an undesirable behavior. Child is not allowed to play with a favorite toy because s/he bit her/his brother.

Positive punishment--The application of an undesirable stimulus in response to an undesired behavior. Child is spanked for running into the street.

Negative punishment--The withdrawal of a undesirable stimulus in response to a desired behavior. Child is not permitted to leave her/his room until s/he apologizes for biting her/his brother.

Psychologists have demonstrated that reinforcement, positive or negative, results in long-term behavior change, and punishment, positive or negative, stops immediate behavior, but leaves no lasting change.

Shame is definitely undesired and therefor falls into the "punishment" category. If you shame a child until he loses weight, that's negative punishment, and if you shame a child because he got fat, that's positive punishment. Either MIGHT result in a little temporary weight loss--short term. Neither will result in a permanent desirable change.

I didn't realize the discrepancy. Thank you and I'll try to use the proper terminology going forward.

FitLink

I have no problem with fat people.
I have a problem with things like the NAAFA. I don't believe we should accept a lifestyle that is detrimental and kills almost 300,000 people a year. I have a problem with hambeasts.
It's saddening to think that people are getting so soft and buttmad about everything.

They aren't asking you to accept any lifestyle. They are asking you to accept people, and no one's lifestyle is any of your business. And you're going to need to prove that being fat causes almost 300,000 deaths a year. And while your deciding that no one needs advocate for people whose lifestyle you don't approve of, consider your 300,000 number in light of some other numbers. 120,000 people in the US alone die every year from accidents. 37,000 commit suicide successfully--many times more people will attempt suicide and fail. 42,000 die from the FLU! The fact is, no one dies from obesity. People do die from obesity-related illnesses, but it isn't possible to predict who will get these illnesses based on weight. Many people get obesity-related illnesses who have never been obese, and not all obese people get obesity-related illnesses. Your 300,000 number is a statistic. Statistics have no meaning what-so-ever as applied to an individual. All they can say is, on average, what will happen. Lots of things are "detrimental" and we don't get so vitriole filled about people doing them. I ride a motorcycle. Last August me and my motorcycle were forced off the road by a drunk driver. I've got nerve damage on my left cheek (facial cheek) where my helmet impacted it. My face was swollen and covered in bruises for weeks. Had the same drunk run me off the road in my car, I likely would be uninjured in this instance. So am I to blame for my injuries because my lifestyle is that I ride a motorcycle rather than drive my car whenever the weather permits? Does the drunk get a free pass because my lifestyle is dangerous? There are several organizations that advocate for the rights of motorcyclists. Do you similarly disapprove of them because motorcycles are dangerous?

I think you're getting caught up in the word "acceptance." NAAFA dates to a time (1969) when that word made more sense than it might now. What they are advocating is non-discrimination.

FitLink

The problem is (and my degree is in learning theory) that people misuse the word "negative reinforcement." It doesn't mean what you think it means, and it's NOT the opposite of positive reinforcement. That's negative punishment. And the words positive and negative are used in the same sense as they are in mathematics, NOT as a value judgement.

Positive reinforcement--The application of a desired stimulus in response to a desired behavior. Child gets to pick a book to be read to him when he gets ready for bed when told.

Negative reinforcement--The withdrawal of a desired stimulus in response to an undesirable behavior. Child is not allowed to play with a favorite toy because s/he bit her/his brother.

Positive punishment--The application of an undesirable stimulus in response to an undesired behavior. Child is spanked for running into the street.

Negative punishment--The withdrawal of a undesirable stimulus in response to a desired behavior. Child is not permitted to leave her/his room until s/he apologizes for biting her/his brother.

Psychologists have demonstrated that reinforcement, positive or negative, results in long-term behavior change, and punishment, positive or negative, stops immediate behavior, but leaves no lasting change.

Shame is definitely undesired and therefor falls into the "punishment" category. If you shame a child until he loses weight, that's negative punishment, and if you shame a child because he got fat, that's positive punishment. Either MIGHT result in a little temporary weight loss--short term. Neither will result in a permanent desirable change.

I didn't realize the discrepancy. Thank you and I'll try to use the proper terminology going forward.

You are truly a gentleman. Your fiance is lucky.

And while the attraction used punishment (positive) rather than negative reinforcement, it would NOT effectively change behavior. Punishment has been proved not to work.

Scott

Hi guys, due to the number of MyFitnessPal guideline violations this thread has been locked. It may be deleted at any time. We appreciate your spirited argument and participation however, please keep the MFP guidelines in mind while posting!