call it what you want "starvation mode" is REAL
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Oh no buddy I've read them so many of them. Both against and for. So many. I think they are definitely making me loopy. Lol
actually, it seems to me that you are mixing research and anecdotal examples. I mean, I do get your very valid point that ppl through around "starvation mode" far too lightly and think that if they skip breakfast or go without food for 36h - that's it, they are causing 'starvation mode'. but I'm really not aware of any research claiming such thingsLol oh dear. See why I hate the starvation mode posted research. There is also research disproving it but it seems most people lean towards believing it.
. on the other side 'choosing not believe' that a prolonged, very high calorie restriction (CR) will change your body's hormonal response and induce metabolism slow down which cannot be accounted for only by the loss of body mass - that's a completely different story. I've seen few studies showing that a prolonged CR did not do things like slow down metabolism nor induced loss of a lean body mass, but - the first study was done on menopausal women, a population that already has slower metabolism, and the second one was done on army recruits put through extreme training, again a group that is not exactly directly comparable to the majority of us here (I gave my opinion about this on one of the starvation mode threads in the intermittent fasting group). On the other hand - I've seen a lot of studies showing prolonged effects of CR on metabolic rate.0 -
Could you send me some studies you think are the most representative for the "against" view? (I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm genuinely curious to see these. Thanks!Oh no buddy I've read them so many of them. Both against and for. So many. I think they are definitely making me loopy. Lol
actually, it seems to me that you are mixing research and anecdotal examples. I mean, I do get your very valid point that ppl through around "starvation mode" far too lightly and think that if they skip breakfast or go without food for 36h - that's it, they are causing 'starvation mode'. but I'm really not aware of any research claiming such thingsLol oh dear. See why I hate the starvation mode posted research. There is also research disproving it but it seems most people lean towards believing it.. on the other side 'choosing not believe' that a prolonged, very high calorie restriction (CR) will change your body's hormonal response and induce metabolism slow down which cannot be accounted for only by the loss of body mass - that's a completely different story. I've seen few studies showing that a prolonged CR did not do things like slow down metabolism nor induced loss of a lean body mass, but - the first study was done on menopausal women, a population that already has slower metabolism, and the second one was done on army recruits put through extreme training, again a group that is not exactly directly comparable to the majority of us here (I gave my opinion about this on one of the starvation mode threads in the intermittent fasting group). On the other hand - I've seen a lot of studies showing prolonged effects of CR on metabolic rate. ) 0 -
Just do a google search for starvation mode myth. I also posted some links on previous posts I made ,you can do a search for my handle..
Could you send me some studies you think are the most representative for the "against" view? (I'm not saying I don't believe you, I'm genuinely curious to see these. Thanks!Oh no buddy I've read them so many of them. Both against and for. So many. I think they are definitely making me loopy. Lol
actually, it seems to me that you are mixing research and anecdotal examples. I mean, I do get your very valid point that ppl through around "starvation mode" far too lightly and think that if they skip breakfast or go without food for 36h - that's it, they are causing 'starvation mode'. but I'm really not aware of any research claiming such thingsLol oh dear. See why I hate the starvation mode posted research. There is also research disproving it but it seems most people lean towards believing it.. on the other side 'choosing not believe' that a prolonged, very high calorie restriction (CR) will change your body's hormonal response and induce metabolism slow down which cannot be accounted for only by the loss of body mass - that's a completely different story. I've seen few studies showing that a prolonged CR did not do things like slow down metabolism nor induced loss of a lean body mass, but - the first study was done on menopausal women, a population that already has slower metabolism, and the second one was done on army recruits put through extreme training, again a group that is not exactly directly comparable to the majority of us here (I gave my opinion about this on one of the starvation mode threads in the intermittent fasting group). On the other hand - I've seen a lot of studies showing prolonged effects of CR on metabolic rate. )0 -
that was exactly the first thing I did before coming (back) to MFP two weeks ago.Just do a google search for starvation mode myth.
And, as I already said, all the "starvation mode is a myth" articles/studies focus on debunking the typical "you'll go in SM if you skip your breakfast" nonsense or "you can't lose weight on VLCD" (again, nonsense).
If you read my post again, you'll see that the studies I'm looking for are those showing that hormonal response to VLCD (and the consequential maintenance problem) does not happen. (I mean apart from the already mentioned studies done on post menopausal women or soldiers put through extreme physical effort - just on a quick look, most articles from the first two pages of google search link to exactly these two papers).
(by the way, I know that humans are extremely annoying experimental animals - this alone can explain good portion of controversial results in fields like this)0 -
I forgot to add that you should buy a set of calipers that measure your body fat... just as important reducing the body fat as it is losing weight.
I know people that are considered to be obese on the charts but only have 5% body fat.
Use the scales but use them wisely and try to measure what your lean body mass is compared to body fat.
Example
Week 1
weight: 200 lbs
body fat: 25%
fat weight: 50lbs
lean mass: 150lbs
Week 2
weight: 197 lbs
body fat: 24%
fat weight: 47.28 lbs
lean mass: 149.72 lbs
change in weight: -3 lbs
change in body fat: 1%
change in fat weight: -2.72lbs
change in lean mass: - .28lbs
I can't stress how important weight training is in combination to cardio work.0 -
Ok first and foremost forget about BMI as there have been countless studies to prove that these reading are often not accurate.
Use the Katch-McArdle Formula or the Harris Benedict Formula.
Drop your calorie intake by 30% for 3 days and then go back to the normal calorie intake for 1 day and then go back for 3 days, keep this system all the way and you will never enter "Survival mode" as I like to call it.
IMPORTANTLY, make sure you eact good clean nutritious food over 5-6 meals a day (to keep the metabolism working overtime) together with a cardio workout of a minimum 30 mins per day 4-5 times per week plus a weight training workout 3 times per week.
Do this and you will lose weight and survival mode is something you will never have to worry about.
When you do plateau just work harder on the cario side..
Cheers and good luck people.
I like the eating below 30% for 3 days then back to normal for 1 day. Don't think there is much to any difference eating 6 meals vs 3.
Big difference.
Eating 5-6 meals a day allows your metabolism to work overtime.
Firing your metabolism is an extremely important ingredient in weight loss.0 -
oh, here we are againBig difference.
Eating 5-6 meals a day allows your metabolism to work overtime.
Firing your metabolism is an extremely important ingredient in weight loss.. your MR does not stop or slow down when you don't eat. do you think you have a lower BMR at 3am than at 3pm? the only 'firing' your M gets form food is the thermal effect of food, which is overridden by the additional Cal you gave your body in that meal.
It's simple - if 5-6 meals a day make you happy and work for you, great, go for it. But I would never force someone to do that if it doesn't feel right for them (as it doesn't for me).0 -
oh, here we are againBig difference.
Eating 5-6 meals a day allows your metabolism to work overtime.
Firing your metabolism is an extremely important ingredient in weight loss.. your MR does not stop or slow down when you don't eat. do you think you have a lower BMR at 3am than at 3pm? the only 'firing' your M gets form food is the thermal effect of food, which is overridden by the additional Cal you gave your body in that meal.
It's simple - if 5-6 meals a day make you happy and work for you, great, go for it. But I would never force someone to do that if it doesn't feel right for them (as it doesn't for me).
It doesn't matter if it "feels" right, its all about what works best to get you to your goal.
I have done both over an 8 week period, 4 weeks each and then compared the results.
You should do the same, its actualy an interesting experiment.
Cheers 0 -
oh, here we are againBig difference.
Eating 5-6 meals a day allows your metabolism to work overtime.
Firing your metabolism is an extremely important ingredient in weight loss.. your MR does not stop or slow down when you don't eat. do you think you have a lower BMR at 3am than at 3pm? the only 'firing' your M gets form food is the thermal effect of food, which is overridden by the additional Cal you gave your body in that meal.
It's simple - if 5-6 meals a day make you happy and work for you, great, go for it. But I would never force someone to do that if it doesn't feel right for them (as it doesn't for me).
It doesn't matter if it "feels" right, its all about what works best to get you to your goal.
I have done both over an 8 week period, 4 weeks each and then compared the results.
You should do the same, its actualy an interesting experiment.
Cheers
I am not aware of any studies that show that eating 6 meals a day v 3 meals a day has any impact on a persons metabolism but would be interested if you could point me to them.0 -
copied this from another post i recently made...
seems to fit here...
the myth that low cal diets will slow your metabolism are unfounded...
In one study, researchers found that the when they made people fast for 3 days, their metabolic rate did not change
-Webber J, Macdonald IA, The cardiovascular, metabolic and hormonal changes accompanying acute starvation in men and women. British journal of nutrition 1994; 71:437-447.
In another study by a different group of researchers, people who fasted every other day for a period of 22 days also had no decrease in their resting metabolic rate
-Heilbronn LK, et al. Alternate-day fasting in nonobese subjects: effects on body weight, body composition, and energy metabolism. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 2005; 81:69-73
In addition, people who were on very low calorie diets and on a resistance exercise program (i.e. lifting weights) did not see a decrease in resting metabolic rate, and these people were only eating 800 Calories a day for 12 weeks
In another interesting study, women who ate half the amount of food that they normally eat for 3 days saw no change in their metabolism either
-Keim NL, Horn WF. Restrained eating behavior and the metabolic response to dietary energy restriction in women. Obesity research 2004; 12:141-149.
The bottom line is food has virtually nothing to do with your metabolism. In fact, your metabolism is much more closely tied to your bodyweight. If your weight goes up or down, so does your metabolism. The only other thing that can affect your metabolism (in both the short term and longer term) is exercise and weight loss. Even in the complete absence of food for three days, your metabolism remains unchanged.
Enough with the not eating enough will slow your metabolism people...
Those studies are all acute. What the OP is talking about is chronic low calorie eating style. Fasting one out of every 22 days, or eating less for 3 days is not chronic.
What many people, myself included, have done is eat <BMR for YEARS. Initially, there is a successful drop in weight. I went from 200 down to 155 at a steady 1-2 lb/week clip. Then I hit 152 and despite lowering my calories some more and increasing exercise, what happened? I started to steadily GAIN again. WTH? Now, I'm back at 170 without having ever stopped eating my 1400-1500 daily calorie goal.
Eventually ...you get to the point where eating more than 1200-1400 calories (or whatever your magic number seems to be) and you gain weight. That's no good and hard to sustain. I've slowly been upping my calories. Keeping exercise the same. I've not gained a single ounce and I'm eating about 1900-2000 every day now. And I'm getting hungrier. At first I couldn't even get up to 1650 without feeling stuffed. Now I'm ravenous. Seems that my inner furnace is burning stronger and stronger. I like this life much better. I feel good!!!
Try it. You might like it :flowerforyou:0 -
sorry, I wasn't clear, when I mentioned "feel right" I had myself in mind and I literally don't feel good if I'm forced to eat straight or very soon after waking up.It doesn't matter if it "feels" right, its all about what works best to get you to your goal.
I have done both over an 8 week period, 4 weeks each and then compared the results.
You should do the same, its actualy an interesting experiment.
Cheers
oh, no, I'm not doing that experiment - changing my eating habits to include eating early in a day is part of what gave me this additional weight that I'm trying to get rid of .
and after checking my metabolism I actually have a good explanation for this: due to very slow metabolic rate my body simply doesn't burn that much during night, so it still feels fine throughout the next morning, if I had a normal dinner. (just to mention - this is not just me hypothesizing; the guy who did the testing came to this conclusion after seeing the results and talking to me about my eating habits/preferences)0 -
What REALLY happened with a starvation mode:
lol
now we have ppl believing that they'll go into starvation mode if they skip breakfast and, on the other side, those believing that your body does not adapt to prolonged VLCD (remember, this 'adaptation' is what you don't want)0 -
i like this line "(by the way, I know that humans are extremely annoying experimental animals - this alone can explain good portion of controversial results in fields like this) " so true!
that was exactly the first thing I did before coming (back) to MFP two weeks ago.Just do a google search for starvation mode myth.
And, as I already said, all the "starvation mode is a myth" articles/studies focus on debunking the typical "you'll go in SM if you skip your breakfast" nonsense or "you can't lose weight on VLCD" (again, nonsense).
If you read my post again, you'll see that the studies I'm looking for are those showing that hormonal response to VLCD (and the consequential maintenance problem) does not happen. (I mean apart from the already mentioned studies done on post menopausal women or soldiers put through extreme physical effort - just on a quick look, most articles from the first two pages of google search link to exactly these two papers).
(by the way, I know that humans are extremely annoying experimental animals - this alone can explain good portion of controversial results in fields like this)0 -
Well, after months of failing miserably at weight loss I seem to be getting somewhere finally. Since adopting a 40/30/30 (p/c/f) plan on MFP each day I seem to be losing a pound a day now. I've been losing a pound a day for the last 3 or 4 days. In fact I was 2 lb lighter today than yesterday morning's weigh in. I'm also eating a bit more now than before and having at least 1 protein shake per day.
My net calories are still low though, yesterday was just 1237. I'm not sure I was ever in 'starvation mode' or anything resembling it, I think prior to using MFP (I only started a couple of weeks ago) I maybe was not eating much but what I did eat was full of carbs and fat.
I've also stepped up running recently. I currently weigh 270lb (although I don't look it) and aim to be 15/16 stone asap though don't want to lose muscle either0 -
Well, after months of failing miserably at weight loss I seem to be getting somewhere finally. Since adopting a 40/30/30 (p/c/f) plan on MFP each day I seem to be losing a pound a day now. I've been losing a pound a day for the last 3 or 4 days. I'm also eating a bit more now than before and having at least 1 protein shake per day.
A pound a day?!?!?
In water?
Lean mass?
Fat?
Wait!!!!
Lean mass+some fat+water and glycogen!
To touch on my point from earlier the human body can only lose so much fat in a day.
This is dependent on how much fat you have vs how much lean mass you have.
If you are Obese II or Obese III this is fine for a while.
You actually have enough CP and ATP in your system to maintain lean mass or even build muscle.
So a VLCD would work well for people 30-50% body fat or more.
VLCDs are good for about 2 weeks then you should come up for air.
You are losing lean mass if you arent lifting heavy.
If you are at 30% body fat or lower this type of diet is true folly and will at some point fall on its face.
Take TDEE and subtract 20%.
Eat your macros.
Sleep 6-9 hours daily.
Work out 3-5 days a week if you have to.
Always lift weights over cardio because muscles on a diet are "Use it or lose it."
Think of it this way...
Do you want weight loss or fat loss?
2 different things btw.
We could all do Lyle McDs Rapid Fat loss and lose a ton of weight but even he has warnings and disclaimers saying this is for very specific people for very specific reasons.
A pound a day?!
Water and glycogen possibly lean mass.0 -
I feel like some people believe they are in starvation mode for several false reasons.
1.) You need to recalculate your given calorie intake every 5 lbs or so. To do this, I usually reset myfitnesspal by switching to "gain a lb" then back to normal so that it will recalculate.
2.) If you are exercising, measuring is important. I was morbidly obese at one point, and sometimes I just lost inches & not pounds. If you are not exercising, this can still happen. I'm currently doing ADF & I've noticed the constant body cleansing has made me leaner even when pounds weren't being shed.
3.) Accurate journaling is the only way to correctly establish if your metabolism is incorrect. If you are -3500 calories in a week for a few weeks, but the scale/measurements haven't changed, then you should consult a physician.
4.) Weigh at the same time of the day each time. Your body can fluctuate several pounds throughout the day.0 -
I just went into starvation mode reading this whole thread.0
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I feel like some people believe they are in starvation mode for several false reasons.
1.) You need to recalculate your given calorie intake every 5 lbs or so. To do this, I usually reset myfitnesspal by switching to "gain a lb" then back to normal so that it will recalculate.
2.) If you are exercising, measuring is important. I was morbidly obese at one point, and sometimes I just lost inches & not pounds. If you are not exercising, this can still happen. I'm currently doing ADF & I've noticed the constant body cleansing has made me leaner even when pounds weren't being shed.
3.) Accurate journaling is the only way to correctly establish if your metabolism is incorrect. If you are -3500 calories in a week for a few weeks, but the scale/measurements haven't changed, then you should consult a physician.
4.) Weigh at the same time of the day each time. Your body can fluctuate several pounds throughout the day.
Lol
At the -3500 cals a week thing!0
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