Vegetarians and vegans. Controversial Topic

Lea_8D

It's interesting reading 'vegetarians and vegans are so pretentious' and other similar statements...
So typical damning a whole group for the acting out of one extremist.
This applies to any group that has ever existed; there are always going to be those who go off of the deep end and ruin the name of the 'organization' for the rest. It's no better than saying 'Americans are so fat and lazy'. Great, thanks- so basically everyone is now categorized under one label. That sure seams reasonable. (Please insert loads of sarcasm here.)

I'm a vegetarian from birth; my parents raised me from the beginning without meat. To clarify; I'm considered an 'ovo-lacto' vegetarian. I eat unfertilized eggs and cheese products. I can tell you as a kid it wasn't easy to feel like the odd one out. All of my friends and classmates questioned why I wasn't allowed to eat 'standard' things like pepperoni pizza at a birthday party, or pumpkin shaped jello (gelatin) on Halloween. Not exactly an easy concept to explain to other 6 and 7 year olds... One thing I know for sure is that my parents raised me with a conscience. They asked me not to eat meat and I listened. I was told that I was free to make my own decisions about my eating habits when I was a legal adult at 18. I have respect for my parents and logically, this makes sense; just as a parent would control whether their child dyes their hair or gets a tattoo. Once a legal adult, all aspects of life become a personal choice.

By 14-16 I began questioning all of my own beliefs and those my parents taught me. This is when I really started to develop reasoning for staying vegetarian. My first reason was because of the fact that the society I live in can easily support a healthy vegetarian diet; the slaughtering of animals is no longer necessary to sustain humans. I can get just as much healthy proteins from whole grains, beans, tofu, nuts, meat substitutes, and eggs. When all of these things are readily available (and delicious), why would I support the meat industry?

My second reason, and what I'm personally finding to be even more important than the first, is the way in which most animals are raised, processed, and slaughtered. Upon extensive research of these things, it's become apparent that almost all name-brand meats which are not locally raised and/or organic abuse the animals in the process. Both in life and death; cattle for example are most commonly fed corn. This can lead to serious health problems which results in an unhealthy life and majorly increases risks of diseased meats. I can go on about this.. but there's plenty of research, articles, and videos about this that (if anyone is interested) can be easily obtained online or through libraries. ... I don't even want to think about the manner in which chickens are raised and processed for meat.. here's a small insight:
http://www.veganpeace.com/animal_cruelty/chicken.htm

My third reason is because of the affects meat has long-term on your body. I highly recommend anyone interested look into http://www.forksoverknives.com/ and most importantly, http://www.thechinastudy.com/ <----

I am a strong believer in 'to each their own'. I choose ovo-lacto vegetarianism because I believe in the principles for myself. I believe that it makes my body healthier and it takes a load off of my conscience when it comes to things like the deaths of sentient beings. My fiance is an omnivore and eats meat on a semi-regular basis, although chooses local and organic options. I love him with all of my heart and his eating habits could not change that. Neither do the eating habits of my friends, family, or complete strangers. Every individual needs to choose what is right for themselves. I would never judge another for their own choices that do not directly affect me, as I expect that they would and should do the same for me.

Very reasonable, balanced, and ethical attitude.

EpiGaiaRepens

If you saw how poorly and inhumanely aphids are treated and enslaved by black garden ants, you wouldn't be laughing. They actually drug the aphids to keep them from escaping. PETA needs to get their act together and start protesting these deplorable and immoral beasts.

Of course, black garden ants don't have a prefontal cortex. And they aren't human. They also don't build nuclear bombs. What's the point? If we are going to base our behavior on the behavior of animals, females should be eating males while they are mating (spiders, praying mantis) and males should kill children that don't belong to them (wolves, lions). We also should eat our own poop (dogs) and not bother much with bathing.

MoreBean13

If you saw how poorly and inhumanely aphids are treated and enslaved by black garden ants, you wouldn't be laughing. They actually drug the aphids to keep them from escaping. PETA needs to get their act together and start protesting these deplorable and immoral beasts.

Of course, black garden ants don't have a prefontal cortex. And they aren't human. They also don't build nuclear bombs. What's the point? If we are going to base our behavior on the behavior of animals, females should be eating males while they are mating (spiders, praying mantis) and males should kill children that don't belong to them (wolves, lions). We also should eat our own poop (dogs) and not bother much with bathing.

Some females do eat males. Listen to the Kesha song "Cannibal" -it's proof. I think you may have taken this post too seriously.

jg627

If you saw how poorly and inhumanely aphids are treated and enslaved by black garden ants, you wouldn't be laughing. They actually drug the aphids to keep them from escaping. PETA needs to get their act together and start protesting these deplorable and immoral beasts.

Of course, black garden ants don't have a prefontal cortex. And they aren't human. They also don't build nuclear bombs. What's the point? If we are going to base our behavior on the behavior of animals, females should be eating males while they are mating (spiders, praying mantis) and males should kill children that don't belong to them (wolves, lions). We also should eat our own poop (dogs) and not bother much with bathing.

Yup. I am, because we are animals, not 'divine' beings. The law of the jungle still applies. The playing field may change, but it's still the same old game. People have had to eat other people or their own feces in order to survive in extreme situations. Just because we're not in an extreme situation right now doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

jg627

If you saw how poorly and inhumanely aphids are treated and enslaved by black garden ants, you wouldn't be laughing. They actually drug the aphids to keep them from escaping. PETA needs to get their act together and start protesting these deplorable and immoral beasts.

Of course, black garden ants don't have a prefontal cortex. And they aren't human. They also don't build nuclear bombs. What's the point? If we are going to base our behavior on the behavior of animals, females should be eating males while they are mating (spiders, praying mantis) and males should kill children that don't belong to them (wolves, lions). We also should eat our own poop (dogs) and not bother much with bathing.

Some females do eat males. Listen to the Kesha song "Cannibal" -it's proof. I think you may have taken this post too seriously.

Lol yes, it was meant to be a joke, but seriously aphids do need an advocate.

lolcatftw

I don't care how people get their nutrients, just as long as they do. The simple fact remains, humans wouldn't have the digestive enzymes for metabolizing animal meat if we weren't meant to eat them. Lest we forget our CANINE teeth? We are omnivores--plain and simple. But, just because we are meant to eat meat doesn't mean we have to. No reason to rage, either way.

We also have a lizard brain as is demonstrated regularly in these forums.

Actually, our teeth are made for grinding, not ripping like true carnivores. That's why they are mostly flat. Compare your teeth to your dog's and you will understand.

Actually, huh? Oh geez. Perhaps you thought I was implying that all of our teeth were canine? Or, maybe you grind food with your canines and incisors? Hmm... we seem to have 4 of the former and 8 of the latter. So it appears we do have tearing and gnashing teeth. I threw us both a bone by leaving out our...wait for it... transitional teeth, viz.: our premolars. Kindly open your mouth in front of a mirror. No really... I'll wait...

"Gah!! I'm a warewolf?!!!", you exclaim? Nope, calm down, you are not a warewolf. Breathe. It's not just you. In fact, the anterior of everyone's premolars are canine. In all fairness, the posterior premolars phenotypically exhibit molar character, but I just had too much fun with this one. Cheap shot. Forgive me. We'll call it a draw here, since premolars are canine-molars, but also molar-canines.

Anyhoo, let's recap:

1) Your hypothesis: "Actually, our teeth are made for grinding, not ripping like true carnivores."

In the future, please form your hypothesis as a question, not a statement. The way you formed your hypothesis makes it appear to the casual observer as though what you are saying is a fact. In reality, your evidence does not support your claim, as will be elucidated. Also, if you must use a sentence, you will do well to leave out adverbs such as "actually". Watson and Crick didn't say back in 1953, "Actually, DNA is double-stranded, the strands are antiparrallel and they're held together by purine matched to pyrimidine bases." Actually is implied. Finally, when forming future hypotheses, if you include blanket statements ("our teeth are made for grinding") you would do well to fact-check. Similarly, you may want to opt for specificity in lieu of ambiguity ("true carnivores"), or else provide example(s).

2) Your observation: "That's why they are mostly flat."

In contrast to my observation, for which one of two assumptions must be made:

Assumption i.: Adult with phenotypically normal number of teeth, including third molars (wisdom teeth)
Number of teeth = 32 :: {Molars = 12, Premolars = 8, Canines = 4, Incisors = 8}

Functionally adapted for shearing & tearing = Canines + Incisors = 4 + 8 = 12
Functionally adapted for grinding = Molars = 12
An argument can be made either way for premolars since they exhibit properties of canines and molars (= 8)
Ratio of shearing/tearing to grinding is 12:12

Assumption ii.: Adult, as (i), excluding* third molars (*never developed or removed)
Number of teeth = 28 :: {Molars = 8, Premolars = 8, Canines = 4, Incisors = 8}

Functionally adapted for shearing & tearing = Canines + Incisors = 4 + 8 = 12
Functionally adapted for grinding = Molars = 8
An argument can be made either way for premolars since they exhibit properties of canines and molars (= 8)
Ratio of shearing/tearing to grinding is 12:8

Any way you look at it, our teeth are not "mostly flat," thus we must dismiss your claim that "our teeth are made for grinding."

3) Your data[?]: "Compare your teeth to your dog's and you will understand."

Again, to the casual observer, the tone of the sentence is such that you are the expert. Yet, your argument is purely based off comparative anatomy?! Anatomically, forward facing eyes are characteristic of carnivores. Yet humans are not obligate carnivores. Physiologically, human lipases and proteases can digest lipids and proteins from meats with equal efficacy as they can from non-meat sources.

Re-read my statement in response to the OP. You'll see I avoid taking a side on how humans should obtain their nutrients, because I don't care. If we are not omnivores then we would not be able to metabolize (to any great extent) both plants and animals. Or fungi (which is genetically more of an animal than it is a plant). Or insects (the real reason we have molars? lol).

P.S., you mentioned "true carnivores", then gave an example of dogs. I am left to assume you are [implicitly] leading the reader to believe that dogs are an example of true carnivores. I would call a dog a carnivore, but only in context. Really, they are non-obligate carnivores. Just look at the ingredients of substandard, mainstream dog food. Corn, corn meal, wheat, rice, potato. Yes, dogs can actually digest this junk--but not as efficiently as they can digest meat. Compare their stool to a dog on a raw diet and you'll see the "proof is in the pudding." The larger stool of "junk food" eating dogs indicates less of the actual food was used in metabolism. But I digress. Good day, and please, in the future, avoid disguising your opinion as fact unless you state it as so. We're all on MFP to change our minds and bodies for the better--not to be fed misinformation by pundits.

jg627

I don't care how people get their nutrients, just as long as they do. The simple fact remains, humans wouldn't have the digestive enzymes for metabolizing animal meat if we weren't meant to eat them. Lest we forget our CANINE teeth? We are omnivores--plain and simple. But, just because we are meant to eat meat doesn't mean we have to. No reason to rage, either way.

We also have a lizard brain as is demonstrated regularly in these forums.

Actually, our teeth are made for grinding, not ripping like true carnivores. That's why they are mostly flat. Compare your teeth to your dog's and you will understand.

Actually, huh? Oh geez. Perhaps you thought I was implying that all of our teeth were canine? Or, maybe you grind food with your canines and incisors? Hmm... we seem to have 4 of the former and 8 of the latter. So it appears we do have tearing and gnashing teeth. I threw us both a bone by leaving out our...wait for it... transitional teeth, viz.: our premolars. Kindly open your mouth in front of a mirror. No really... I'll wait...

"Gah!! I'm a warewolf?!!!", you exclaim? Nope, calm down, you are not a warewolf. Breathe. It's not just you. In fact, the anterior of everyone's premolars are canine. In all fairness, the posterior premolars phenotypically exhibit molar character, but I just had too much fun with this one. Cheap shot. Forgive me. We'll call it a draw here, since premolars are canine-molars, but also molar-canines.

Anyhoo, let's recap:

1) Your hypothesis: "Actually, our teeth are made for grinding, not ripping like true carnivores."

In the future, please form your hypothesis as a question, not a statement. The way you formed your hypothesis makes it appear to the casual observer as though what you are saying is a fact. In reality, your evidence does not support your claim, as will be elucidated. Also, if you must use a sentence, you will do well to leave out adverbs such as "actually". Watson and Crick didn't say back in 1953, "Actually, DNA is double-stranded, the strands are antiparrallel and they're held together by purine matched to pyrimidine bases." Actually is implied. Finally, when forming future hypotheses, if you include blanket statements ("our teeth are made for grinding") you would do well to fact-check. Similarly, you may want to opt for specificity in lieu of ambiguity ("true carnivores"), or else provide example(s).

2) Your observation: "That's why they are mostly flat."

In contrast to my observation, for which one of two assumptions must be made:

Assumption i.: Adult with phenotypically normal number of teeth, including third molars (wisdom teeth)
Number of teeth = 32 :: {Molars = 12, Premolars = 8, Canines = 4, Incisors = 8}

Functionally adapted for shearing & tearing = Canines + Incisors = 4 + 8 = 12
Functionally adapted for grinding = Molars = 12
An argument can be made either way for premolars since they exhibit properties of canines and molars (= 8)
Ratio of shearing/tearing to grinding is 12:12

Assumption ii.: Adult, as (i), excluding* third molars (*never developed or removed)
Number of teeth = 28 :: {Molars = 8, Premolars = 8, Canines = 4, Incisors = 8}

Functionally adapted for shearing & tearing = Canines + Incisors = 4 + 8 = 12
Functionally adapted for grinding = Molars = 8
An argument can be made either way for premolars since they exhibit properties of canines and molars (= 8)
Ratio of shearing/tearing to grinding is 12:8

Any way you look at it, our teeth are not "mostly flat," thus we must dismiss your claim that "our teeth are made for grinding."

3) Your data[?]: "Compare your teeth to your dog's and you will understand."

Again, to the casual observer, the tone of the sentence is such that you are the expert. Yet, your argument is purely based off comparative anatomy?! Anatomically, forward facing eyes are characteristic of carnivores. Yet humans are not obligate carnivores. Physiologically, human lipases and proteases can digest lipids and proteins from meats with equal efficacy as they can from non-meat sources.

Re-read my statement in response to the OP. You'll see I avoid taking a side on how humans should obtain their nutrients, because I don't care. If we are not omnivores then we would not be able to metabolize (to any great extent) both plants and animals. Or fungi (which is genetically more of an animal than it is a plant). Or insects (the real reason we have molars? lol).

P.S., you mentioned "true carnivores", then gave an example of dogs. I am left to assume you are [implicitly] leading the reader to believe that dogs are an example of true carnivores. I would call a dog a carnivore, but only in context. Really, they are non-obligate carnivores. Just look at the ingredients of substandard, mainstream dog food. Corn, corn meal, wheat, rice, potato. Yes, dogs can actually digest this junk--but not as efficiently as they can digest meat. Compare their stool to a dog on a raw diet and you'll see the "proof is in the pudding." The larger stool of "junk food" eating dogs indicates less of the actual food was used in metabolism. But I digress. Good day, and please, in the future, avoid disguising your opinion as fact unless you state it as so. We're all on MFP to change our minds and bodies for the better--not to be fed misinformation by pundits.

Nice observations, but you're missing something; the spear. The spear actually pr-dates our specific species. A quarter million years ago our ancestors were taught how to use this already ancient weapon, but was it really a weapon at all? Fast forward in time to the viking era. Look at the berserks, who chewed on their shields before battle. Those shields were made out of wood. You see where this is going now. While you guys argue over where you get your nutrients from, I'm actually getting healthy eating a nice delicious tree branch.
It's not too bad... maybe just a little dry. I'll try soaking it in water next time.

Jbarbo01

what is your purpose for being vegetarian? Do they just taste that good to you? Is it about being healthy? WHY!?!? Don't get me wrong I have no problems with it, and everyone is entitled to eat what ever they wish. I however am trying to understand.

Most people who are vegetarians are most often doing it for animal welfare. Everyone has a different affinity for animals and I think thats fine. Some people dont think chicken or pigs should be treated like anything more than food, but some people believe they should be. I wouldnt understand vegetarians as much if our food was grass fed, humanely treated meat but its not. The animals are abused, tortured, and mutilated in our current factory farming system. Everyone is allowed to have their different opinions on it, and that woman should not have forced hers on you. Its not usually that being a vegetarian tastes better, its just about having different values and opinions about animals as food. Sometimes its about health, but that is so controversial whether a vegetarian diet is better that PETA is normally fooling itself. Sloths only eat plants and that is why they are so slow and lethargic. I try to eat vegetarian meals or organic humanely raised meat only because I don't like to participate directly in animal suffering because thats just a value I hold.

dtucker4403

I have been a vegetarian for 3 years. I did it for ethical, health and environmental reasons. I would never judge anyone else for what they eat or be so rude as to insult a stranger in a public restaurant. If someone sincerely wants to know my reasons for choosing to be a vegetarian, I am happy to talk about it. Otherwise, I just keep it to myself.
Also, you can eat just as unhealthy as a vegetarian as a meat eater. Plenty of junk food is still "vegetarian". Carbs and sugar and fat are in plenty of vegetarian food. I gained a bunch of weight after I became a vegetarian because I didn't watch the cheese, sugar and chips and alcohol. I have had to change the way I eat again to lose the weight. I am very conscious of eating healthy foods now and cutting the junk from my diet.

Most people are very accepting of my choice to be vegetarian. I get teased a little, but not in a mean way. People just think I'm a little weird (they are probably right).

Sorry you had to deal with someone being rude and judgmental.

kkricciardi

I'm vegetarian too but couldn't care less what other people are eating. It's not really a health thing to me, nor is it an animal thing, I just decided I felt like being vegetarian one day and stuck with it.
That woman was crazy, but the only thing that bothered me was how you said vegetarians were all twigs... honestly, there are vegan UFC fighters. I wrestle during the winter (no not with the girls, with the boys & I was a states qualifier, third in the regionals) and throw and sprint for track during the spring, I broke the schools pushup record (95 helll yeah!), and I don't think my muscular ability or endurance has suffered at all during the time when I was vegetarian.

kasebrad

I find it pretty hilarious that this lady berated you about eating meat when she was giving her money to (and hence supporting) an establishment that profits off of animal products.

SueGeer

I'm a pescatarian rather than a fully-fledged vegetarian. I gave up meat 8 years ago simply cos I went off if....didn't particularly like the taste or texture. Don't get me wrong......the smell of a bacon sarnie still makes my mouth water. Nothing to do with animal rights or anything like that.....everyone has their reasons & everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Just don't shove it down everybody else's throats.....

I get my protein through fish, Greek yoghurt, nuts, etc. I'm fit & healthy......rarely ill.

beebee0925

Bump

davidsgirl145

is Jello made from animals?

davidsgirl145

Gelatin (or gelatine) is a translucent, colorless, brittle (when dry), flavorless solid substance, derived from the collagen mainly inside pig skin (hide) and cattle bones.

OMG..i'm never eating Jello again!

Tofuheart

Ive been a vegetarian for 16 years this month. I was vegan for 4 years of those. I still tend to stay away from dairy aside from cottage cheese.

When I first became vegetarian it was because of ethical and moral reasons. My sensei in martial arts was vegetarian and encouraged us to look at what we put in our bodies and why. I also studied buddhism for years and it just made sense to me and caused me concern to consume animal flesh. I was pretty strict about who I had around me and if they ate meat I wouldn't eat with them. Over the years Ive mellowed out. I only ask that people try to be ethical and eat free range if it's affordable and support a sustainable lifestyle meat or not.

That being said, I am very healthy (not one of those pasty white, dark circled zombie vegans you often see around) My blood work is excellent and I have energy and balance out my vitamins and proteins and I'm always creating new dishes and looking for other ways to eat.

It's a lifestyle thing for me now. And I don't agree with veggie nazis that think they have some sort of entitlement to walk up to random strangers and judge them. It's kinda what can give us vegetarians a bad name.

PrincessPenelope5

Again I smile real big "Lady I'm 5'4" 160lbs, I can run 2 miles in under 13 minutes and at that pace I can maintain a heart rate of 150bpm and a dead rest heart rate of 52bpm. My blood pressure is 116/75. I can benchpress 205lbs. I go to the gym 4 days out of the week. I eat all the nutrients my body needs. Without sacrificing my size. If I were like you and eat only veggies I would be a puny twig that can be pushed over by a strong wind. I like my chances of being healthy without being a vegetarian. I like having protein in my body, it allows me to do hard labor work without being strained, and if I am strained I can recover very quickly. If I were you I'd start eating meat so you can be healthier than you are now"

Baffled and stunned this lady was forced into retreat.

Love your little fiction tale:) ha ha.

PaulJRaymond

Today, after I left the gym I stopped at Jimmy Johns to get a snack. I ordered a #1 which is Applewood Smoked Ham and provolone cheese garnished with lettuce, tomato, and mayo. I sat down minding my own business enjoying my snack. Like a the normal American Male that I am, I take really big bites of my food. Of course their might be a string of lettuce hanging from my mouth or drops back onto tray. Well while doing this I'm approached by a very bitter lady.

"That is so gross" was the first words out of her mouth. At first I was going to say something like "get off my nuts if you don't like the way I eat" but before I could say anything she wasn't talking about the way I eat food. She was referring to my meaty sandwhich. She says to me, "How can you eat that stuff, its disgusting, unhealthy, and just plain wrong. People kill animals for you to eat, god didn't put us on this planet to kill everything" (that wasn't word for word but its the same damn gibberish she was spouting at me)

Being a educated fellow I smiled real big and just knew this was going down right then and there.

My response "What makes you think that this is unhealthy? Because its high in calories? My food is cooked to kill the germs that might be harmful to me. As far as taste goes I believe its very good and I might just get another."

"I'm a vegetarian and vegetarians are just more fit and healthier than those who are not" she said.

Again I smile real big "Lady I'm 5'4" 160lbs, I can run 2 miles in under 13 minutes and at that pace I can maintain a heart rate of 150bpm and a dead rest heart rate of 52bpm. My blood pressure is 116/75. I can benchpress 205lbs. I go to the gym 4 days out of the week. I eat all the nutrients my body needs. Without sacrificing my size. If I were like you and eat only veggies I would be a puny twig that can be pushed over by a strong wind. I like my chances of being healthy without being a vegetarian. I like having protein in my body, it allows me to do hard labor work without being strained, and if I am strained I can recover very quickly. If I were you I'd start eating meat so you can be healthier than you are now"

Baffled and stunned this lady was forced into retreat.

And there it is, the reason we dislike Americans. The woman was rude, and the response arrogant and disdainful (and if you are educated, God help us). Just wonder what the motive is for writing this. To show off that you got the upper hand over a deluded and stupid woman (as depicted in this post - although possibly the "gibberish" was too clever for you?).

Tofuheart

Gelatin (or gelatine) is a translucent, colorless, brittle (when dry), flavorless solid substance, derived from the collagen mainly inside pig skin (hide) and cattle bones.

OMG..i'm never eating Jello again!

And don't forget connective tissue~

Gelatin is in lots of stuff. Yogurt to marshmallows.

Rennet is even worst IMO. It's used to make most commerical cheeses. It' made from the stomach lining of young slaughtered calves.

PaulJRaymond

Most commercial cheeses are made with microbiotic rennet and is entirely Vegetarian. Many of the more artisan cheeses are not vegetarian. In the UK at least.