Meat eating vs. Vegan debate
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It is still a personal choice, regardless of the harm it is doing. People have known for a great number of years that animals are being drugged with various growth enhancers and antibiotics. Yet the meat industry continues to flourish. Obviously the choice for a great many is to eat the enhanced meat, many only because they cannot afford the alternative.
Organic meat continues to be cost prohibitive for many consumers. I doubt most would choose to buy chemically treated meat if the alternative were not so expensive. Think the commercial industry is going to go to the expense to change practices? Hardly. It's much cheaper the way they are doing it so they keep that profit margin. Consumers can't afford to do an embargo on treated meats to pressure the industry.
As someone mentioned," big money organizations" manipulate studies to benefit them. They also spend huge on lobbyists to keep laws governing legal use of steroids, antibiotics and pesticides in their favor. They manipulate market costs to keep at a profitable level. It's hard to compete with the billions of dollars behind factory farming. The advertising budget alone blows organic farmers out of the water.
In the long run, the big picture is about money and greed, not much about health. I think there is little chance of this changing.
IMO
Yeah. I think you're right. It certainly won't change whilst so much money is being made out of it. But I felt absolutely unaware of any of this stuff before a few days ago. I had absolutely no idea that animals were pumped full of drugs. And I think this is probably the case for the majority of meat-eaters. It's just not something you tend to think about. You just go to the market, buy your weekly shopping, usually the stuff you've been having all your life, and you're done with it. There's just no thinking involved. So I posted this thread in order to discuss everything around being a meat-eater or vegan, discuss the health benefits, discuss people's views on the matter. It's just my attempt to gain some more insight and information. And from everything i've seen, I think I'm going to consider cutting my meat consumption right down to maybe 2 or 3 times a week rather than eating it every day, at least. The weight-gaining hormones did it for me. Like I bloody need that!0 -
If you want meat there are organic options available, especially if you are only going to eat it a couple of times a week as you suggested. Before you stop eating meat though, you really might benefit of some study on alternative protein sources. There is a little thought behind vegetarian and vegan diets in order to get the protein you need.
Anyway, good luck on your healthy dietary adventures!0 -
I do want to know if any of the vegans or vegetarians on here miss eating meat. I live in NJ and miss Taylor Ham. That is really the only thing I miss, small sacrifice I guess.
Not me. I was raised as a meat eater, and I sometimes still react to the aromas of cooking meat but the thought of actually eating animal flesh .... gahh.... shudder ...
The last time I accidentally ate meat I actually did get sick. It was psychological of course, but I still felt completely nauseous.
I am not a vegetarian in the strict sense, but I don't eat meat in general. I'll admit there is a comforting smell associated with cooking meat because it reminds me of youthful cookouts or the way my mom cooked.
But to sink my teeth in it consciously disgusts me. That doesn't mean I don't ever eat it, but when I do eat it, I can't really think about it.
As far as bugs, we find slugs on our lettuce ALL THE TIME. We capture them and put them in the yard, the same that we do with spiders.
In fact, I love that there are bugs on my food. That means they want them as much as I do! We grow a lot of our own food, which ties us into the entire cycle; we compost also (and yes, we live in a densely populated city). We harvest the compost, put it back in our garden and call it a day.
As a mock-vegetarian, I do not eat "processed" food, by which I mean "fake meats" unless I have made them myself, for example my famous black bean "burgers". Even then, we don't think of them as meat replacements, but a different kind of meal.
I am perfectly satisfied going weeks or even months without meat, and I think I could easily live without it completely.0 -
One thing that seems to be missing is mention of the fact that a lot of vegetables are genetically modified nowadays. There are organic options for both sides, and mass production methods for both sides as well.0
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Yeah. I think you're right. It certainly won't change whilst so much money is being made out of it. But I felt absolutely unaware of any of this stuff before a few days ago. I had absolutely no idea that animals were pumped full of drugs. And I think this is probably the case for the majority of meat-eaters. It's just not something you tend to think about. You just go to the market, buy your weekly shopping, usually the stuff you've been having all your life, and you're done with it. There's just no thinking involved. So I posted this thread in order to discuss everything around being a meat-eater or vegan, discuss the health benefits, discuss people's views on the matter. It's just my attempt to gain some more insight and information. And from everything i've seen, I think I'm going to consider cutting my meat consumption right down to maybe 2 or 3 times a week rather than eating it every day, at least. The weight-gaining hormones did it for me. Like I bloody need that!
Your post reads foreign to me, maybe the UK, so just remember that in the US, the dollar is king! And many other countries have laws that prevent our kind of practices because they're so terrible.
If you can cut meat-eating 1 day a week every month, you'll get your body used to it slowly and you won't crave it so often. Meat has many natural chemicals that stimulate different parts of our bodies; plus there's an emotional and nostalgic association with certain foods that make you crave it. For me, it's been very easy to keep meat out of my diet because my boyfriend is a vegetarian and he had me read Diet for a New America (John Robbins) which kind of turned me off to American-style meat raising practices. It's truly disgusting.
All you have to do is a little research for the practices in your country. It's also a good idea to know the practices of countries where food is imported to yours, and not just meat-wise.
Best of luck and take it easy,
k0 -
One thing that seems to be missing is mention of the fact that a lot of vegetables are genetically modified nowadays. There are organic options for both sides, and mass production methods for both sides as well.
Not a lot, actually, mostly just grains: corn, soy, alfalfa; however, those grains are fed to animals. sugar from beets is also GMO.
So mostly people consume GMOs when eating meat & processed foods.
(and I'm not judging you if you are eating them, just simply stating it )0 -
Yeah. I think you're right. It certainly won't change whilst so much money is being made out of it. But I felt absolutely unaware of any of this stuff before a few days ago. I had absolutely no idea that animals were pumped full of drugs. And I think this is probably the case for the majority of meat-eaters. It's just not something you tend to think about. You just go to the market, buy your weekly shopping, usually the stuff you've been having all your life, and you're done with it. There's just no thinking involved. So I posted this thread in order to discuss everything around being a meat-eater or vegan, discuss the health benefits, discuss people's views on the matter. It's just my attempt to gain some more insight and information. And from everything i've seen, I think I'm going to consider cutting my meat consumption right down to maybe 2 or 3 times a week rather than eating it every day, at least. The weight-gaining hormones did it for me. Like I bloody need that!
Your post reads foreign to me, maybe the UK, so just remember that in the US, the dollar is king! And many other countries have laws that prevent our kind of practices because they're so terrible.
If you can cut meat-eating 1 day a week every month, you'll get your body used to it slowly and you won't crave it so often. Meat has many natural chemicals that stimulate different parts of our bodies; plus there's an emotional and nostalgic association with certain foods that make you crave it. For me, it's been very easy to keep meat out of my diet because my boyfriend is a vegetarian and he had me read Diet for a New America (John Robbins) which kind of turned me off to American-style meat raising practices. It's truly disgusting.
All you have to do is a little research for the practices in your country. It's also a good idea to know the practices of countries where food is imported to yours, and not just meat-wise.
Best of luck and take it easy,
k
I do agree that the meat industry in the US is terrible. Because of this I buy most of my meat from a local shop that only carries local grass fed beef and free range chickens. Organic is becoming much bigger here. Even some of the local grocery stores are getting in on the action and carrying a larger selection of organic products at a similar price to the regular stuff. The products now will have a GMO free label on them.0 -
The products now will have a GMO free label on them.
I think only Vermont has passed that law, but I can be mistaken. If you have more info on it, that'd be awesome.
We mostly avoid GMO by buying into an organic-practice farm every summer (4 years running) and by growing our own food. From about April to Thanksgiving, we are eating like our great-grandparents did.
Another great way to opt-out of the system is removing the television from your home. It works wonders! I'd bet more people would have trouble removing TV than they would meat, haha!0 -
I'm sure there are a lot more crops than that, that are GMO here and in Europe. I have no sources other than my own vague memory however - tomatoes spring to mind for some reason, as do potatoes and certain fruits.One thing that seems to be missing is mention of the fact that a lot of vegetables are genetically modified nowadays. There are organic options for both sides, and mass production methods for both sides as well.
Not a lot, actually, mostly just grains: corn, soy, alfalfa; however, those grains are fed to animals. sugar from beets is also GMO.
So mostly people consume GMOs when eating meat & processed foods.
(and I'm not judging you if you are eating them, just simply stating it )
No offence taken
I would buy organic if I could afford to, but I'm not overly concerned with the side-effects of GMO food products. Living in London, smog, smoking and food handling practices are far more pressing concerns 0 -
Okay, I am NOT a medical doctor, but my understanding is longevity is a function of genes and lifestyle, along with environmental factors. Genes are probably the most important of the three. Some people won't live beyond 40 no matter what they do right. In my simple way of looking at things genes define a range of lifespan that is possible for each individual. To maximize that lifespan, you have to do what you can to control environment and lifestyle. Fortunately for us in the United States, environment can be manipulated by choice of where we want to live (smoggy Los Angeles or Burlington, VT) and what we do for a living (Coal mining vs forest ranger.) Most people have to compromise on both place and job. Finally, lifestyle which includes for me mostly diet and exercise. As I have said many times here, there are plenty of studies that correlate meat eating with cancer and heart disease, but there is not a single study that I have ever seen that correlates vegetarian diet with any chronic disease. (Okay, B12 deficiency, but that is easily remedied.) Finally, exercise. I personally believe (no scientific evidence for this) that humans were meant to sweat every day. I try to do a one hour cardio workout at least 5 times a week, and I do resistance machines and weights about 4 times a week. I really enjoy long bike rides and hiking. I used to run distance (5 k to marathon) and downhill ski, but my legs are not as good as they used to be, so I have to be careful of impact exercises. I have a lifecycle and weights at home and I go to a gym.
Because so many factors are implicated in longevity, doing a controlled study that takes into account genetic disposition, occupation, quality of life, location, exercise and diet are impossible. We don't even know all the genetic factors, so how can we control for them? The best we can do is perform studies comparing the factors that we know about and can control for. Diet is certainly in that category. Even controlled diet studies cannot control for everything, so you look at what you have. Fortunately, there are hundreds, if not thousands on vegetarian and meat diets. They generally fall out as showing that vegetarian diets are better, or in a few as good as, meat diets, the overwhelming number showing vegetarian diets being better.
Now again, none of them can control for all genetic factors, and probably few control for environmental factors. If controlled at all, they are probably controled for lifestyle factors (smoking, drugs, exercise, weight, chronic illnesses) There is not a diet study you can point to that is perfect, but since so many have been done, you can at least see a trend. Vegetarian diets are better. (Again, junk food vegetarians can throw off the curve, but not enough to distort the end result)
Pardon the length of this response, but the answer to your question of why meat eaters do not show a much more dramatic negative effect is because there are so many factors in determining health, genetics probably being the most important. As I pointed out Inuit people and Lapplanders have genetically much lower predisposition to cancer and heart disease, and in addition their lifestyle is pretty healthy, so eating meat is probably not a negative factor for them. Due to all of the factors that come into play, eating meat is probably one of the less important factors. But it is a factor nonetheless. And it is enough of a factor that practically every study ever done shows a statistical correlation between eating meat and certain chronic diseases.
I agree with you that there are too many factors in studies like that. But in my personal opinion excess body fat is the actual culprit behind most of the chronic diseases being blamed on meat. (Again just my opinion)I heard something about 'some bodybuilders consciously switching to a vegan diet' because the proteins found in plant and grown foods are much more beneficial for building. What are your thoughts?
I haven't heard of this before. It seems largely unnecessary to me. Once the protein is broken down into an amino acid it's identical weather it comes from spinach, chicken, beans, or pork. I tried to find an argument for it online and can't seem to find one for either side.0 -
The products now will have a GMO free label on them.
I think only Vermont has passed that law, but I can be mistaken. If you have more info on it, that'd be awesome.
We mostly avoid GMO by buying into an organic-practice farm every summer (4 years running) and by growing our own food. From about April to Thanksgiving, we are eating like our great-grandparents did.
Another great way to opt-out of the system is removing the television from your home. It works wonders! I'd bet more people would have trouble removing TV than they would meat, haha!
I live in Washington State and there are a lot of GMO labeled products on the shelves in the stores. Muir Glen tomatoes spring to mind off the top of my head. With some organic produce there is a huge price disparity, some is very close in price comparison. I also prefer to buy local and love the local markets over the chain stores..... but I do think our choices do make a difference, I do think it is about consumer demand. Since the selection of organic is growing at our local chain stores it gives me hope that voices have been heard.0 -
I'm sure there are a lot more crops than that, that are GMO here and in Europe. I have no sources other than my own vague memory however - tomatoes spring to mind for some reason, as do potatoes and certain fruits.
No offence taken I would buy organic if I could afford to, but I'm not overly concerned with the side-effects of GMO food products. Living in London, smog, smoking and food handling practices are far more pressing concerns
There are more crops, certainly, but the big ones are grains... I forgot to add rice.
Organic labeling is pretty-much ineffective, IMO. I always tell people, "If the choice is between an Oreo & conventionally grown broccoli, the choice should be obvious." The USDA Organic is a start, but it's by no means perfect. Organic farmers still use herbicides & pesticides; they just use organic herbicides & pesticides. Better for the environment, yes, but the problem isn't solely in this. The problem is in the entire process of it.
Permaculture is a better option because it considers the surroundings as well as the output. And there's a lot of money to be made in it, too, but it does require actual work. People don't want to work for what they want, that's the root of the Sequoia.
There are plenty of things to worry about, but I choose organic when I can, not because I think it's better for me, but because the practices are beneficial to everyone. The chemicals do have a life span, but they do a lot of damage to the surrounding environment before that life span ends.0 -
It is still a personal choice, regardless of the harm it is doing. People have known for a great number of years that animals are being drugged with various growth enhancers and antibiotics. Yet the meat industry continues to flourish. Obviously the choice for a great many is to eat the enhanced meat, many only because they cannot afford the alternative.
Organic meat continues to be cost prohibitive for many consumers. I doubt most would choose to buy chemically treated meat if the alternative were not so expensive. Think the commercial industry is going to go to the expense to change practices? Hardly. It's much cheaper the way they are doing it so they keep that profit margin. Consumers can't afford to do an embargo on treated meats to pressure the industry.
As someone mentioned," big money organizations" manipulate studies to benefit them. They also spend huge on lobbyists to keep laws governing legal use of steroids, antibiotics and pesticides in their favor. They manipulate market costs to keep at a profitable level. It's hard to compete with the billions of dollars behind factory farming. The advertising budget alone blows organic farmers out of the water.
In the long run, the big picture is about money and greed, not much about health. I think there is little chance of this changing.
IMO
You know, there is an alternative to expensive organic meat and chemically enhanced factory farmed meat: no meat at all. This was my point about the Bell Shaped Curve in action. Yeah, people can chose what they want. They can choose to smoke and do drugs. They can choose to sky dive without a parachute. My point is that when people make these choices I don't want to be saddled with their health bills. They can't live without meat? Fine. But don't come to me and ask me to pay for your cancer treatment. I'll take care of myself. You take care of yourself.0 -
If you want meat there are organic options available, especially if you are only going to eat it a couple of times a week as you suggested. Before you stop eating meat though, you really might benefit of some study on alternative protein sources. There is a little thought behind vegetarian and vegan diets in order to get the protein you need.
Anyway, good luck on your healthy dietary adventures!
Sorry, but studying "alternative protein sources," is nonsense. Have you ever seen a cow? Cows eat grass. Where do you suppose they get their protein. (And don't say, they grind up sick cows and feed them back to the herd. That is exactly where mad cow disease comes from.)
I have been a vegetarian since 1979. I do not intentionally look for protein. It is present in veggies. In fact, many people with meat centered diets eat excessive protein, and that leads to osteoporosis. Sorry, there are no good reasons for eating meat. There are plenty of bad ones, however, such as growth hormones, mad cow disease, the unspeakable cruelty of factory farms, the incredible damage meat does to our environment and to our bodies, chronic diesases caused by meat. Like I said, the Bell Shaped Curve in action. How many studies have you seen implicating carrots in any of these problems?0 -
I do want to know if any of the vegans or vegetarians on here miss eating meat. I live in NJ and miss Taylor Ham. That is really the only thing I miss, small sacrifice I guess.
Not me. I was raised as a meat eater, and I sometimes still react to the aromas of cooking meat but the thought of actually eating animal flesh .... gahh.... shudder ...
The last time I accidentally ate meat I actually did get sick. It was psychological of course, but I still felt completely nauseous.
I am not a vegetarian in the strict sense, but I don't eat meat in general. I'll admit there is a comforting smell associated with cooking meat because it reminds me of youthful cookouts or the way my mom cooked.
But to sink my teeth in it consciously disgusts me. That doesn't mean I don't ever eat it, but when I do eat it, I can't really think about it.
As far as bugs, we find slugs on our lettuce ALL THE TIME. We capture them and put them in the yard, the same that we do with spiders.
In fact, I love that there are bugs on my food. That means they want them as much as I do! We grow a lot of our own food, which ties us into the entire cycle; we compost also (and yes, we live in a densely populated city). We harvest the compost, put it back in our garden and call it a day.
As a mock-vegetarian, I do not eat "processed" food, by which I mean "fake meats" unless I have made them myself, for example my famous black bean "burgers". Even then, we don't think of them as meat replacements, but a different kind of meal.
I am perfectly satisfied going weeks or even months without meat, and I think I could easily live without it completely.
Good for you! Why do you call yourself a "mock vegetarian?" Because you occasionally have meat? Your diet sounds pretty good to me.0 -
One thing that seems to be missing is mention of the fact that a lot of vegetables are genetically modified nowadays. There are organic options for both sides, and mass production methods for both sides as well.
Genetic modification of vegetables does not involved "growth hormones." Plants are genetically modified to make them resistant to plant diseases. In effect, what the geneticists are doing is speeding up nature.
If you ever have the opportunity to see what corn looked like hundreds of years ago, you can see what has happened. Originally, corn was scrawny with few kernels. Farmers, with no knowledge of genetics selectively bred the better corn and the result was much different from wild corn, i.e., the corn we know today. This was, in effect, genetic engineering, not unlike breeding corn that is resistant to certain diseases to get a resistant strain, or inserting a resistance gene into the DNA of a non resistant strain.
Again we are talking apples and oranges when comparing making plants resistant to diseases verses injecting steroids into cows. Yes, you have good reason to worry about the meat but little reason to worry about the corn.
http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2003/11/61210#0 -
I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.
I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.
/rant.0 -
Love Diet for a new America and Diet for a Small Planet. Diet for a Small Planet especially got me started as a vegetarian.
Yeah. I think you're right. It certainly won't change whilst so much money is being made out of it. But I felt absolutely unaware of any of this stuff before a few days ago. I had absolutely no idea that animals were pumped full of drugs. And I think this is probably the case for the majority of meat-eaters. It's just not something you tend to think about. You just go to the market, buy your weekly shopping, usually the stuff you've been having all your life, and you're done with it. There's just no thinking involved. So I posted this thread in order to discuss everything around being a meat-eater or vegan, discuss the health benefits, discuss people's views on the matter. It's just my attempt to gain some more insight and information. And from everything i've seen, I think I'm going to consider cutting my meat consumption right down to maybe 2 or 3 times a week rather than eating it every day, at least. The weight-gaining hormones did it for me. Like I bloody need that!
Your post reads foreign to me, maybe the UK, so just remember that in the US, the dollar is king! And many other countries have laws that prevent our kind of practices because they're so terrible.
If you can cut meat-eating 1 day a week every month, you'll get your body used to it slowly and you won't crave it so often. Meat has many natural chemicals that stimulate different parts of our bodies; plus there's an emotional and nostalgic association with certain foods that make you crave it. For me, it's been very easy to keep meat out of my diet because my boyfriend is a vegetarian and he had me read Diet for a New America (John Robbins) which kind of turned me off to American-style meat raising practices. It's truly disgusting.
All you have to do is a little research for the practices in your country. It's also a good idea to know the practices of countries where food is imported to yours, and not just meat-wise.
Best of luck and take it easy,
k0 -
I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.
I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.
/rant.
Not eating meat does save animals and does save the environment. Read John Robbins or Francis Moore-Lappe. Eating meat also increases health costs. Why do you think Obamacare got passed? I am 69 and have, by necessity, been on Medicare for four years. Other than routine physicals, I have not used it once, nonetheless, I am forced to buy insurance I don't want or need, and I have forced deductions to pay for medicare. If I could get back all the money I paid into the medicare system in exchange for agreeing to take care of my own health bills, I would grab that in a second. Quite frankly, I am sick of paying for other peoples' bad choices. Smokers, meat-eaters, drug users should have their own health plans and pay for those plans themselves. The rest of us should be in a separate group.0 -
'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.
I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.
/rant.
Not eating meat does save animals and does save the environment. Read John Robbins or Francis Moore-Lappe. Eating meat also increases health costs. Why do you think Obamacare got passed? I am 69 and have, by necessity, been on Medicare for four years. Other than routine physicals, I have not used it once, nonetheless, I am forced to buy insurance I don't want or need, and I have forced deductions to pay for medicare. If I could get back all the money I paid into the medicare system in exchange for agreeing to take care of my own health bills, I would grab that in a second. Quite frankly, I am sick of paying for other peoples' bad choices. Smokers, meat-eaters, drug users should have their own health plans and pay for those plans themselves. The rest of us should be in a separate group.0
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