Meat eating vs. Vegan debate
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veggie...drowning in too many student loans to be a serious and healthy vegan haha. Plus the hubs eats like a T-rex so I have to purchase/handel/cook/learn about cutsof/ meats anyway.
See, this vegetablist*, I can take seriously.^^^^^^^^^ I'm pretty sure most vegetarians and vegans "get it" that animals eat other animals you don't have to point it out just to be a smartass and pick on someone for their view.
This thread was meant to discuss health issues and why people make the choices they do. MOST of us were interested in the exchange of ideas and information they regarding eating meat vs. not eating meat.
*not sure if vegan or veggie.0 -
Quoting has got messed up, but anyway; those with private health insurance will still recieve a better standard of care as and when they want it, so I don't really see how you can be opposed to the idea. Insurance is only NECESSARY in the US at all because no national health service existed in the first place, so it's introduction means future generations will not be required to have it at all.
'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.
I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.
/rant.
Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.
Not eating meat does save animals and does save the environment. Read John Robbins or Francis Moore-Lappe. Eating meat also increases health costs. Why do you think Obamacare got passed? I am 69 and have, by necessity, been on Medicare for four years. Other than routine physicals, I have not used it once, nonetheless, I am forced to buy insurance I don't want or need, and I have forced deductions to pay for medicare. If I could get back all the money I paid into the medicare system in exchange for agreeing to take care of my own health bills, I would grab that in a second. Quite frankly, I am sick of paying for other peoples' bad choices. Smokers, meat-eaters, drug users should have their own health plans and pay for those plans themselves. The rest of us should be in a separate group.
Please consider this; for someone with my dietary requirements due to my lifestyle, size and gender, eating enough vegetable matter and of the right, very obscure and hard to obtain foods (at least here in the UK) to fulfill my calorific requirements whilst not overloading on carbohydrates to achieve my required protein intake would mean I have to eat an incredibly large amount of food which is neither practical, nor in my case, affordable.
Also this; the nutritional density of a cow is far greater than that of what you could plant on the surface area of ground it is covering. To provide enough vegetable matter to feed an entire meatless population would require a lot more ground clearance, tree felling, nesting bird and burrowing animal disturbance and in the end would leave great swathes of the world as flat farmland unsuitable for wildlife. Further to this, more crops would mean more pesticides etc, which would further exacerbate problems with water contamination.
Also, please stop lumping meat eating with smoking and drug abuse. Meat isn't an addictive narcotic substance with no health benefit, but instead a staple of the human diet for many thousands of years, with a high nutritional, caloric and protein density. One reason I cannot take you seriously is that you seem to value yourself so highly compared to other people, because they have a different choice of diet. Some humility would go a long way, as it's people like you that portray the very negative stereotypes assosciated with vegan culture.
Wow! First of all, I've been to the UK and I know that most of what you are on about is simply not true. Let's take the items one at a time.
Health care. I lived in France for three years where they also have socialized medicine. Like the UK, you can get decent health care - if you go to a private clinic or come to a country like the US. Health care in most of Euorpe is rationed. There is a "Board" that decides whether or not you get certain life saving procedures. That is certainly understandable if it is a case of scarce resources, like, e.g. a liver transplant and there aren't enough livers. But it goes beyond that. When procedures are too expensive they can be denied. No, I do not know this from personal experience, but I have been told this by many people I know from the UK and France.
Next, you seem to be claiming that someone of your "lifestyle, size and gender" cannot possibly get enough vegetarian food. This is a really bizarre statement, since, as I say, I have been to the UK and EVERYTHING costs about three times what it costs here. Veggies may be more expensive, but so is meat. Sorry, but without further explanation of what is so important about you "lifestyle, size and gender" i have to dismiss this as rubbish.
Finally, you statement that there is not enough room on this planet to grow enough vegetables to feed the population is probably the most absurd thing you said, and believe me, it's hard to win that prize. Let me ask you a question. What do you think the livestock eats? How do you suppose the food gets to the feedlots? Do you have any clue as to how much oil, water and plant products it takes to produce one pound of meat? I would guess you don't or you never would have said what you did.
As for my elitist attitude, you are spot on there.0 -
My own silly addition to this rather silly debate is this : Has anyone ever considered that being a Veggie (as we call it in my house) is cruel to plants? You're effectively killing the plant for your consumption! And for all those Vegans out there..do you wear Leather? Do you own a leather purse? How about Leather shoes?
In our house we don't eat much meat, a few times a week because it's one of the few things I can get all my kids to eat without arguments. Red meat, maybe once a month. But I've always sort of thought that eating plants is just as mean as eating animals. Sure, plants can't talk but they're alive! and to eat them means to kill them. Maybe it hurts them to die? Who are we to say if it does or not? We have no way of telling.
In order for something to hurt, it must have a nervous system. Plants do not have nervous systems.
And no, I do not know any vegans who whear leather. I get my shoes and belts from Vegetarian Shoes in the UK.0 -
Quoting has got messed up, but anyway; those with private health insurance will still recieve a better standard of care as and when they want it, so I don't really see how you can be opposed to the idea. Insurance is only NECESSARY in the US at all because no national health service existed in the first place, so it's introduction means future generations will not be required to have it at all.
'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.
I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.
/rant.
Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.
Not eating meat does save animals and does save the environment. Read John Robbins or Francis Moore-Lappe. Eating meat also increases health costs. Why do you think Obamacare got passed? I am 69 and have, by necessity, been on Medicare for four years. Other than routine physicals, I have not used it once, nonetheless, I am forced to buy insurance I don't want or need, and I have forced deductions to pay for medicare. If I could get back all the money I paid into the medicare system in exchange for agreeing to take care of my own health bills, I would grab that in a second. Quite frankly, I am sick of paying for other peoples' bad choices. Smokers, meat-eaters, drug users should have their own health plans and pay for those plans themselves. The rest of us should be in a separate group.
Please consider this; for someone with my dietary requirements due to my lifestyle, size and gender, eating enough vegetable matter and of the right, very obscure and hard to obtain foods (at least here in the UK) to fulfill my calorific requirements whilst not overloading on carbohydrates to achieve my required protein intake would mean I have to eat an incredibly large amount of food which is neither practical, nor in my case, affordable.
Also this; the nutritional density of a cow is far greater than that of what you could plant on the surface area of ground it is covering. To provide enough vegetable matter to feed an entire meatless population would require a lot more ground clearance, tree felling, nesting bird and burrowing animal disturbance and in the end would leave great swathes of the world as flat farmland unsuitable for wildlife. Further to this, more crops would mean more pesticides etc, which would further exacerbate problems with water contamination.
Also, please stop lumping meat eating with smoking and drug abuse. Meat isn't an addictive narcotic substance with no health benefit, but instead a staple of the human diet for many thousands of years, with a high nutritional, caloric and protein density. One reason I cannot take you seriously is that you seem to value yourself so highly compared to other people, because they have a different choice of diet. Some humility would go a long way, as it's people like you that portray the very negative stereotypes assosciated with vegan culture.
Wow! First of all, I've been to the UK and I know that most of what you are on about is simply not true. Let's take the items one at a time.
Health care. I lived in France for three years where they also have socialized medicine. Like the UK, you can get decent health care - if you go to a private clinic or come to a country like the US. Health care in most of Euorpe is rationed. There is a "Board" that decides whether or not you get certain life saving procedures. That is certainly understandable if it is a case of scarce resources, like, e.g. a liver transplant and there aren't enough livers. But it goes beyond that. When procedures are too expensive they can be denied. No, I do not know this from personal experience, but I have been told this by many people I know from the UK and France.
Next, you seem to be claiming that someone of your "lifestyle, size and gender" cannot possibly get enough vegetarian food. This is a really bizarre statement, since, as I say, I have been to the UK and EVERYTHING costs about three times what it costs here. Veggies may be more expensive, but so is meat. Sorry, but without further explanation of what is so important about you "lifestyle, size and gender" i have to dismiss this as rubbish.
Finally, you statement that there is not enough room on this planet to grow enough vegetables to feed the population is probably the most absurd thing you said, and believe me, it's hard to win that prize. Let me ask you a question. What do you think the livestock eats? How do you suppose the food gets to the feedlots? Do you have any clue as to how much oil, water and plant products it takes to produce one pound of meat? I would guess you don't or you never would have said what you did.
As for my elitist attitude, you are spot on there.
For an elitist, you sure are easy to troll. Most elitists wouldn't look twice at a lesser being.0 -
veggie...drowning in too many student loans to be a serious and healthy vegan haha. Plus the hubs eats like a T-rex so I have to purchase/handel/cook/learn about cutsof/ meats anyway.
See, this vegetablist*, I can take seriously.^^^^^^^^^ I'm pretty sure most vegetarians and vegans "get it" that animals eat other animals you don't have to point it out just to be a smartass and pick on someone for their view.
This thread was meant to discuss health issues and why people make the choices they do. MOST of us were interested in the exchange of ideas and information they regarding eating meat vs. not eating meat.
*not sure if vegan or veggie.
Bummer. Well, don't give up the idea. Circumstances change.0 -
Plants do not have nervous systems.In order for something to hurt, it must have a nervous system.My own silly addition to this rather silly debate is this : Has anyone ever considered that being a Veggie (as we call it in my house) is cruel to plants? You're effectively killing the plant for your consumption! And for all those Vegans out there..do you wear Leather? Do you own a leather purse? How about Leather shoes?
In our house we don't eat much meat, a few times a week because it's one of the few things I can get all my kids to eat without arguments. Red meat, maybe once a month. But I've always sort of thought that eating plants is just as mean as eating animals. Sure, plants can't talk but they're alive! and to eat them means to kill them. Maybe it hurts them to die? Who are we to say if it does or not? We have no way of telling.
And no, I do not know any vegans who whear leather. I get my shoes and belts from Vegetarian Shoes in the UK.
There is debate about plant sentience but yeah,.I don't know any vegans who wear leather or animal products.0 -
Quoting has got messed up, but anyway; those with private health insurance will still recieve a better standard of care as and when they want it, so I don't really see how you can be opposed to the idea. Insurance is only NECESSARY in the US at all because no national health service existed in the first place, so it's introduction means future generations will not be required to have it at all.
'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.
I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.
/rant.
Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.
Not eating meat does save animals and does save the environment. Read John Robbins or Francis Moore-Lappe. Eating meat also increases health costs. Why do you think Obamacare got passed? I am 69 and have, by necessity, been on Medicare for four years. Other than routine physicals, I have not used it once, nonetheless, I am forced to buy insurance I don't want or need, and I have forced deductions to pay for medicare. If I could get back all the money I paid into the medicare system in exchange for agreeing to take care of my own health bills, I would grab that in a second. Quite frankly, I am sick of paying for other peoples' bad choices. Smokers, meat-eaters, drug users should have their own health plans and pay for those plans themselves. The rest of us should be in a separate group.
Please consider this; for someone with my dietary requirements due to my lifestyle, size and gender, eating enough vegetable matter and of the right, very obscure and hard to obtain foods (at least here in the UK) to fulfill my calorific requirements whilst not overloading on carbohydrates to achieve my required protein intake would mean I have to eat an incredibly large amount of food which is neither practical, nor in my case, affordable.
Also this; the nutritional density of a cow is far greater than that of what you could plant on the surface area of ground it is covering. To provide enough vegetable matter to feed an entire meatless population would require a lot more ground clearance, tree felling, nesting bird and burrowing animal disturbance and in the end would leave great swathes of the world as flat farmland unsuitable for wildlife. Further to this, more crops would mean more pesticides etc, which would further exacerbate problems with water contamination.
Also, please stop lumping meat eating with smoking and drug abuse. Meat isn't an addictive narcotic substance with no health benefit, but instead a staple of the human diet for many thousands of years, with a high nutritional, caloric and protein density. One reason I cannot take you seriously is that you seem to value yourself so highly compared to other people, because they have a different choice of diet. Some humility would go a long way, as it's people like you that portray the very negative stereotypes assosciated with vegan culture.
Wow! First of all, I've been to the UK and I know that most of what you are on about is simply not true. Let's take the items one at a time.
Health care. I lived in France for three years where they also have socialized medicine. Like the UK, you can get decent health care - if you go to a private clinic or come to a country like the US. Health care in most of Euorpe is rationed. There is a "Board" that decides whether or not you get certain life saving procedures. That is certainly understandable if it is a case of scarce resources, like, e.g. a liver transplant and there aren't enough livers. But it goes beyond that. When procedures are too expensive they can be denied. No, I do not know this from personal experience, but I have been told this by many people I know from the UK and France.
Next, you seem to be claiming that someone of your "lifestyle, size and gender" cannot possibly get enough vegetarian food. This is a really bizarre statement, since, as I say, I have been to the UK and EVERYTHING costs about three times what it costs here. Veggies may be more expensive, but so is meat. Sorry, but without further explanation of what is so important about you "lifestyle, size and gender" i have to dismiss this as rubbish.
Finally, you statement that there is not enough room on this planet to grow enough vegetables to feed the population is probably the most absurd thing you said, and believe me, it's hard to win that prize. Let me ask you a question. What do you think the livestock eats? How do you suppose the food gets to the feedlots? Do you have any clue as to how much oil, water and plant products it takes to produce one pound of meat? I would guess you don't or you never would have said what you did.
As for my elitist attitude, you are spot on there.
For an elitist, you sure are easy to troll. Most elitists wouldn't look twice at a lesser being.
I'm bored. My wife is cooking and my kids haven't gotten up yet. What can I say? A troll is better than nothing.0 -
veggie...drowning in too many student loans to be a serious and healthy vegan haha. Plus the hubs eats like a T-rex so I have to purchase/handel/cook/learn about cutsof/ meats anyway.
See, this vegetablist*, I can take seriously.^^^^^^^^^ I'm pretty sure most vegetarians and vegans "get it" that animals eat other animals you don't have to point it out just to be a smartass and pick on someone for their view.
This thread was meant to discuss health issues and why people make the choices they do. MOST of us were interested in the exchange of ideas and information they regarding eating meat vs. not eating meat.
*not sure if vegan or veggie.
Bummer. Well, don't give up the idea. Circumstances change.
Haha. I could probably do it if I went Raw.0 -
veggie...drowning in too many student loans to be a serious and healthy vegan haha. Plus the hubs eats like a T-rex so I have to purchase/handel/cook/learn about cutsof/ meats anyway.
See, this vegetablist*, I can take seriously.^^^^^^^^^ I'm pretty sure most vegetarians and vegans "get it" that animals eat other animals you don't have to point it out just to be a smartass and pick on someone for their view.
This thread was meant to discuss health issues and why people make the choices they do. MOST of us were interested in the exchange of ideas and information they regarding eating meat vs. not eating meat.
*not sure if vegan or veggie.
Bummer. Well, don't give up the idea. Circumstances change.
Haha. I could probably do it if I went Raw.
That's radical. I love salads and raw tomatoes, and even zuchini with salt. But I do like cooked food. I've never tried raw, but if you do, let me know how it goes.0 -
Paragraph 1: For a lot of people, private medical care isn't an option so we have to make do with the NHS. Sometimes organs are in short supply, but in no other case are operations denied. Sometimes delayed because of scheduling a surgeon, but not denied. COSMETIC procedures cannot be undertaken on the NHS.
Quoting has got messed up, but anyway; those with private health insurance will still recieve a better standard of care as and when they want it, so I don't really see how you can be opposed to the idea. Insurance is only NECESSARY in the US at all because no national health service existed in the first place, so it's introduction means future generations will not be required to have it at all.
'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.
I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.
/rant.
Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.
Not eating meat does save animals and does save the environment. Read John Robbins or Francis Moore-Lappe. Eating meat also increases health costs. Why do you think Obamacare got passed? I am 69 and have, by necessity, been on Medicare for four years. Other than routine physicals, I have not used it once, nonetheless, I am forced to buy insurance I don't want or need, and I have forced deductions to pay for medicare. If I could get back all the money I paid into the medicare system in exchange for agreeing to take care of my own health bills, I would grab that in a second. Quite frankly, I am sick of paying for other peoples' bad choices. Smokers, meat-eaters, drug users should have their own health plans and pay for those plans themselves. The rest of us should be in a separate group.
Please consider this; for someone with my dietary requirements due to my lifestyle, size and gender, eating enough vegetable matter and of the right, very obscure and hard to obtain foods (at least here in the UK) to fulfill my calorific requirements whilst not overloading on carbohydrates to achieve my required protein intake would mean I have to eat an incredibly large amount of food which is neither practical, nor in my case, affordable.
Also this; the nutritional density of a cow is far greater than that of what you could plant on the surface area of ground it is covering. To provide enough vegetable matter to feed an entire meatless population would require a lot more ground clearance, tree felling, nesting bird and burrowing animal disturbance and in the end would leave great swathes of the world as flat farmland unsuitable for wildlife. Further to this, more crops would mean more pesticides etc, which would further exacerbate problems with water contamination.
Also, please stop lumping meat eating with smoking and drug abuse. Meat isn't an addictive narcotic substance with no health benefit, but instead a staple of the human diet for many thousands of years, with a high nutritional, caloric and protein density. One reason I cannot take you seriously is that you seem to value yourself so highly compared to other people, because they have a different choice of diet. Some humility would go a long way, as it's people like you that portray the very negative stereotypes assosciated with vegan culture.
Wow! First of all, I've been to the UK and I know that most of what you are on about is simply not true. Let's take the items one at a time.
Health care. I lived in France for three years where they also have socialized medicine. Like the UK, you can get decent health care - if you go to a private clinic or come to a country like the US. Health care in most of Euorpe is rationed. There is a "Board" that decides whether or not you get certain life saving procedures. That is certainly understandable if it is a case of scarce resources, like, e.g. a liver transplant and there aren't enough livers. But it goes beyond that. When procedures are too expensive they can be denied. No, I do not know this from personal experience, but I have been told this by many people I know from the UK and France.
Next, you seem to be claiming that someone of your "lifestyle, size and gender" cannot possibly get enough vegetarian food. This is a really bizarre statement, since, as I say, I have been to the UK and EVERYTHING costs about three times what it costs here. Veggies may be more expensive, but so is meat. Sorry, but without further explanation of what is so important about you "lifestyle, size and gender" i have to dismiss this as rubbish.
Finally, you statement that there is not enough room on this planet to grow enough vegetables to feed the population is probably the most absurd thing you said, and believe me, it's hard to win that prize. Let me ask you a question. What do you think the livestock eats? How do you suppose the food gets to the feedlots? Do you have any clue as to how much oil, water and plant products it takes to produce one pound of meat? I would guess you don't or you never would have said what you did.
As for my elitist attitude, you are spot on there.
Paragraph 2: My calorie requirements at the moment are 2700 to lose weight, with a 1000 calorie deficit to my maintenance. My size, active lifestyle, being male, young and of average height create a large calorific requirement and my pursuit of strength and muscle development create a large protein requirement. The cost of getting enough protein from vegetables would be astronomically higher than from meat.
Paragraph 3: I'm sure you're trolling here, or just so blinded by your narrowminded, self-righteous bull**** that you are completely ignorant to the point I actually made. By animals eating the food, they increase their nutritional density, and you can plant more food where the food they just ate was. Is it really that difficult? To make enough room for enough crops, more land would have to be destroyed, flattened and farmed. I never said there wasn't enough space on Earth, but that you would have to destroy even more of it if you want the whole world to go vegan.
P.S. I'm glad you accept the fact you are an *kitten*.0 -
Paragraph 1: For a lot of people, private medical care isn't an option so we have to make do with the NHS. Sometimes organs are in short supply, but in no other case are operations denied. Sometimes delayed because of scheduling a surgeon, but not denied. COSMETIC procedures cannot be undertaken on the NHS.
Quoting has got messed up, but anyway; those with private health insurance will still recieve a better standard of care as and when they want it, so I don't really see how you can be opposed to the idea. Insurance is only NECESSARY in the US at all because no national health service existed in the first place, so it's introduction means future generations will not be required to have it at all.
'Obamacare' was passed because everyone should be entitled to health care when they're ill, regardless of their social standing.I am vegetarian, my opinion. You wanna eat meat? eat meat. You wanna be vegan? Be vegan. Not eating meat isnt going to 'save' animals nor will it make a dent enough for the industry to care. Dont force your personal beliefs on the other people because they eat something you dont.
I have been vegetarian since I was a little kid and am comfortable being vegetarian! This is my choice and no one elses.
/rant.
Your opinion. I don't discriminate by social class, but anyone who makes good lifestyle choices should be granted frist choice of care, if and when they need it. People who make bad choices don't deserved the same level of care since they probably caused the problem themselves.
Not eating meat does save animals and does save the environment. Read John Robbins or Francis Moore-Lappe. Eating meat also increases health costs. Why do you think Obamacare got passed? I am 69 and have, by necessity, been on Medicare for four years. Other than routine physicals, I have not used it once, nonetheless, I am forced to buy insurance I don't want or need, and I have forced deductions to pay for medicare. If I could get back all the money I paid into the medicare system in exchange for agreeing to take care of my own health bills, I would grab that in a second. Quite frankly, I am sick of paying for other peoples' bad choices. Smokers, meat-eaters, drug users should have their own health plans and pay for those plans themselves. The rest of us should be in a separate group.
Please consider this; for someone with my dietary requirements due to my lifestyle, size and gender, eating enough vegetable matter and of the right, very obscure and hard to obtain foods (at least here in the UK) to fulfill my calorific requirements whilst not overloading on carbohydrates to achieve my required protein intake would mean I have to eat an incredibly large amount of food which is neither practical, nor in my case, affordable.
Also this; the nutritional density of a cow is far greater than that of what you could plant on the surface area of ground it is covering. To provide enough vegetable matter to feed an entire meatless population would require a lot more ground clearance, tree felling, nesting bird and burrowing animal disturbance and in the end would leave great swathes of the world as flat farmland unsuitable for wildlife. Further to this, more crops would mean more pesticides etc, which would further exacerbate problems with water contamination.
Also, please stop lumping meat eating with smoking and drug abuse. Meat isn't an addictive narcotic substance with no health benefit, but instead a staple of the human diet for many thousands of years, with a high nutritional, caloric and protein density. One reason I cannot take you seriously is that you seem to value yourself so highly compared to other people, because they have a different choice of diet. Some humility would go a long way, as it's people like you that portray the very negative stereotypes assosciated with vegan culture.
Wow! First of all, I've been to the UK and I know that most of what you are on about is simply not true. Let's take the items one at a time.
Health care. I lived in France for three years where they also have socialized medicine. Like the UK, you can get decent health care - if you go to a private clinic or come to a country like the US. Health care in most of Euorpe is rationed. There is a "Board" that decides whether or not you get certain life saving procedures. That is certainly understandable if it is a case of scarce resources, like, e.g. a liver transplant and there aren't enough livers. But it goes beyond that. When procedures are too expensive they can be denied. No, I do not know this from personal experience, but I have been told this by many people I know from the UK and France.
Next, you seem to be claiming that someone of your "lifestyle, size and gender" cannot possibly get enough vegetarian food. This is a really bizarre statement, since, as I say, I have been to the UK and EVERYTHING costs about three times what it costs here. Veggies may be more expensive, but so is meat. Sorry, but without further explanation of what is so important about you "lifestyle, size and gender" i have to dismiss this as rubbish.
Finally, you statement that there is not enough room on this planet to grow enough vegetables to feed the population is probably the most absurd thing you said, and believe me, it's hard to win that prize. Let me ask you a question. What do you think the livestock eats? How do you suppose the food gets to the feedlots? Do you have any clue as to how much oil, water and plant products it takes to produce one pound of meat? I would guess you don't or you never would have said what you did.
As for my elitist attitude, you are spot on there.
Paragraph 2: My calorie requirements at the moment are 2700 to lose weight, with a 1000 calorie deficit to my maintenance. My size, active lifestyle, being male, young and of average height create a large calorific requirement and my pursuit of strength and muscle development create a large protein requirement. The cost of getting enough protein from vegetables would be astronomically higher than from meat.
Paragraph 3: I'm sure you're trolling here, or just so blinded by your narrowminded, self-righteous bull**** that you are completely ignorant to the point I actually made. By animals eating the food, they increase their nutritional density, and you can plant more food where the food they just ate was. Is it really that difficult? To make enough room for enough crops, more land would have to be destroyed, flattened and farmed. I never said there wasn't enough space on Earth, but that you would have to destroy even more of it if you want the whole world to go vegan.
P.S. I'm glad you accept the fact you are an *kitten*.
Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.0 -
Oh, by the way, if you want to hear both sides of the farm subsidy argument :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1247588/
I know which side I believe, but if you believe that removing government subsidies would actually make the price of meat go down, I have a bridge I would like to sell you.0 -
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ronnie+coleman&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=OqzDT--SLcmJ8gOJ6cjwCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=PKzDT9PeFs7Z8QOetoSECwParagraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=arnold+schwarzenegger&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=EKzDT6GsLcX58QPs2fTlCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=EqzDT8v4O9C08QPzsYXNCg
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jay+cutler&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=XazDT9fxMMfi8QOP4PXzCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=X6zDT9_RCseO8gPq8PnkCg
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.0 -
Sad to see what was a good discussion thread getting trolled to death.0
-
My own silly addition to this rather silly debate is this : Has anyone ever considered that being a Veggie (as we call it in my house) is cruel to plants? You're effectively killing the plant for your consumption! And for all those Vegans out there..do you wear Leather? Do you own a leather purse? How about Leather shoes?
In our house we don't eat much meat, a few times a week because it's one of the few things I can get all my kids to eat without arguments. Red meat, maybe once a month. But I've always sort of thought that eating plants is just as mean as eating animals. Sure, plants can't talk but they're alive! and to eat them means to kill them. Maybe it hurts them to die? Who are we to say if it does or not? We have no way of telling.
I just finished making soy milk and soy/cashew yogurt from actual dried soybeans and raw cashews. Neither writhed, thrashed and snorted in fear. You do know that this argument is a weak one. If you are so concerned with the 'pain' plants feel, I think you have no other option but to starve yourself to death. Animals need to eat at least 2 pounds of plants to create 1 pound of meat. So your meat requires an animal to process your plants for you. You are eating plants one step up the 'food chain', and more of them.
As for the non-food aspects of my lifestyle. I buy my shoes from MooShoes.com. I have two handbags: a canvas one for everyday; and a nice high-end Matt and Nat bag for fancier occasions. I use Seventh Generation soaps for laundry and dishwashing. I clean with vinegar, baking soda and water. I buy hair products and bath soaps which are animal ingredient free and not tested on animals. Most of my clothes are made of organic cotton from Maggies Organics or other companies. I have a very small wardrobe and like it that way.0 -
Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.
You know what is scary? That you might actually believe what you are saying.
First of all when did Spinach become the only vegetable? Have you ever eaten beans? Did you know beans have a huge amount of protein in them. If you truly want to know how to eat a high protein vegetarian diet on the cheap :
http://www.grow-cook-eat-beans.com/healthy_eating.html
Also, pay attention to what it says about too much protein.0 -
Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.
You know what is scary? That you might actually believe what you are saying.
First of all when did Spinach become the only vegetable? Have you ever eaten beans? Did you know beans have a huge amount of protein in them. If you truly want to know how to eat a high protein vegetarian diet on the cheap :
http://www.grow-cook-eat-beans.com/healthy_eating.html
Also, pay attention to what it says about too much protein.
Whoops. When you get to the website, go to the menu and choose "bean Nutrition."0 -
Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.
You know what is scary? That you might actually believe what you are saying.
First of all when did Spinach become the only vegetable? Have you ever eaten beans? Did you know beans have a huge amount of protein in them. If you truly want to know how to eat a high protein vegetarian diet on the cheap :
http://www.grow-cook-eat-beans.com/healthy_eating.html
Also, pay attention to what it says about too much protein.
Bahaha, here we go. Too much protein will make you ill!
I chose spinach because it's often touted as one of the best sources of protein in a vegan diet.
Okay, fine beans:
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224029307
19g per 1kg, cost for 200g £78
Cannellini Beans
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338224141897
71g per 1kg, cost for 200g £8.280 -
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ronnie+coleman&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=OqzDT--SLcmJ8gOJ6cjwCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=PKzDT9PeFs7Z8QOetoSECwParagraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=arnold+schwarzenegger&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=EKzDT6GsLcX58QPs2fTlCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=EqzDT8v4O9C08QPzsYXNCg
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jay+cutler&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=XazDT9fxMMfi8QOP4PXzCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=X6zDT9_RCseO8gPq8PnkCg
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.
It's interesting that you would reference a relatively expensive, low calorie vegetable like spinach for your comparison. I just made a huge pot of chickpeas ($2/lb dry). I also made soymilk (3 oz of soybeans costs 40 cents and makes a quart). Later, I will make some okara burgers, made in part from the soy pulp from the soymilk production--these are omnivore-approved by the way.
Many basic vegetarian foods are intrinsically inexpensive, tasty and good for you. Spinach is on today's menu today as a splurge. It is organic and cost me $4.00 for a bunch which will probably serve two, sauteed with garlic in a bit of olive oil.0 -
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ronnie+coleman&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=OqzDT--SLcmJ8gOJ6cjwCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=PKzDT9PeFs7Z8QOetoSECwParagraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?
Paragraph 2.:
http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935
Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.
Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=arnold+schwarzenegger&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=EKzDT6GsLcX58QPs2fTlCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=EqzDT8v4O9C08QPzsYXNCg
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jay+cutler&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=XazDT9fxMMfi8QOP4PXzCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=X6zDT9_RCseO8gPq8PnkCg
:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66
Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.
It's interesting that you would reference a relatively expensive, low calorie vegetable like spinach for your comparison. I just made a huge pot of chickpeas ($2/lb dry). I also made soymilk (3 oz of soybeans costs 40 cents and makes a quart). Later, I will make some okara burgers, made in part from the soy pulp from the soymilk production--these are omnivore-approved by the way.
Many basic vegetarian foods are intrinsically inexpensive, tasty and good for you. Spinach is on today's menu today as a splurge. It is organic and cost me $4.00 for a bunch which will probably serve two, sauteed with garlic in a bit of olive oil.
I was trying to compare the nutritional values more than anything, and have posted some more comparisons above. Spinach is the highest-protein veg I could think of that would be relatively commonly available here. Food is a lot more expensive here in the UK from what I gather, overall. I have no problem with vegetables and eat plenty most days, as well as a lot of fruits and nuts in phases. My point is that to reach my calorie and protein requirements would cost me far too much, and require a huge amount more food, in terms of mass.0
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