Meat eating vs. Vegan debate

kayemme

So what is the cost of Navy Pea Beans in the UK, enough to get 200 g of protein?

I have no idea, since none of the supermarkets I know of stock them.

they're usually sold dry. a pound is about $1.50 here.

_VoV

As a mock-vegetarian, I do not eat "processed" food, by which I mean "fake meats" unless I have made them myself, for example my famous black bean "burgers". Even then, we don't think of them as meat replacements, but a different kind of meal.

Good for you! Why do you call yourself a "mock vegetarian?" Because you occasionally have meat? Your diet sounds pretty good to me.

yeah, that's why. i won't turn something down that has meat in it, but usually if it's by my own choice, I'll go without. It makes it a bit easier at social functions and I do plenty of my part by not driving, buying first-hand, bringing my own bags, composting, blah blah... I feel like if I want to have a slice of ham every once in a while, it's no big deal.

I'd love your recipe for black bean burgers if you care to share.

I'll post it in "recipes" as to not derail this intelligent & considerate discussion.

Thank you! I'll be looking forward to it!

ironanimal

So what is the cost of Navy Pea Beans in the UK, enough to get 200 g of protein?

I have no idea, since none of the supermarkets I know of stock them.

they're usually sold dry. a pound is about $1.50 here.

I found the price earlier under Haricot beans, and £2.94 a kg.
£1 is $1.57 at the moment, so $4.60 for a kg, or $2 a pound. The cost of the protein versus chicken was about 200%.

deaddivya

Personally, I never really thought about protein, carbs, fat and all the other stuff when I became a vegetarian. It just happens that I don't want to eat a dead animal and that I don't want to be responsible for a piece of meat on my plate. Naturally, I know that I don't make any difference, but it salves my conscience.

Rhea30

Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?

Paragraph 2.:

http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935

Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.

Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ronnie+coleman&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=OqzDT--SLcmJ8gOJ6cjwCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=PKzDT9PeFs7Z8QOetoSECw

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=arnold+schwarzenegger&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=EKzDT6GsLcX58QPs2fTlCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=EqzDT8v4O9C08QPzsYXNCg

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jay+cutler&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=XazDT9fxMMfi8QOP4PXzCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=X6zDT9_RCseO8gPq8PnkCg

:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66

Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.

It's interesting that you would reference a relatively expensive, low calorie vegetable like spinach for your comparison. I just made a huge pot of chickpeas ($2/lb dry). I also made soymilk (3 oz of soybeans costs 40 cents and makes a quart). Later, I will make some okara burgers, made in part from the soy pulp from the soymilk production--these are omnivore-approved by the way.

Many basic vegetarian foods are intrinsically inexpensive, tasty and good for you. Spinach is on today's menu today as a splurge. It is organic and cost me $4.00 for a bunch which will probably serve two, sauteed with garlic in a bit of olive oil.

The price of certain types of food depends solely on where you live.

_VoV

So, yes, I do agree it is difficult to get that much protein in a calorie-restricted way. But tofu, tempeh, seitan, and soymilk are good concentrated sources. Many of my strength-training vegan friends also use protein powders, but I prefer chewing rather than drinking my food, so I'm a hold-out on that stuff.

Ahhh...refreshing. Reasonable discussion.

I already use a protein shake most days. And personally, I follow an even higher recommendation of a about 1.2g per lb of bodyweight, so it really is very difficult. I'm glad you can appreciate that. I won't touch soy products because of the potential hormonal risks that have yet to be proven or disproven either way.

Edit: Baked beans generally come tinned and loaded with sodium. I have no idea what their un-baked name would be here.
Edit Edit: googled and found they're known as Haricot Beans.
http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338225806693
57g per kg, cost for 200g of protein £10.31

Thanks for the clarification. Many foods have different names once we cross the Atlantic. I have heard of haricot beans, but I thought those were the fresh slim green ones, not dried.

Many of my friends here are vegetarian or vegan. Others eat a more conventional diet with animal products. The thing I notice is that my meat-eating friends can get a good 30 grams of protein at dinner with relatively low calories by eating a piece of fish or chicken. I can do that too, if I eat a vegetarian chili with beans and seitan, but I don't want to eat that every day. Seitan (concentrated wheat gluten with a meaty texture) has 22.5 grams in 3 ounces (about 85 grams). I prefer eating beans because there are other good nutrients--antioxidants, fiber, calcium, iron, etc. and they are a whole food, unlike seitan, which requires stripping the gluten out of the whole wheat.

In any event, I hear you on this point of meeting your protein requirements on plant food, and appreciate that your circumstances are different than mine. It's hard to find a diet which serves your health interests, and I am happy you found one. I encourage you to explore more plant-based protein, as you are able because I think it's a little easier on the body (excess protein in the body requires buffering for its disposal). If that doesn't interest you, I wish you well on your fitness endeavors.

_VoV

Personally, I never really thought about protein, carbs, fat and all the other stuff when I became a vegetarian. It just happens that I don't want to eat a dead animal and that I don't want to be responsible for a piece of meat on my plate. Naturally, I know that I don't make any difference, but it salves my conscience.

I think 'voting with your dollars' does make a big difference. My biggest hope is that 'Meatless Mondays' becomes the norm. That would lead to a huge number of animals not going to slaughter. I, too, am motivated by the desire to reduce animal suffering, and would still be vegetarian, even if it was proven to be less healthy than the alternative. Health is a very distant second motivation for me.

kayemme

So what is the cost of Navy Pea Beans in the UK, enough to get 200 g of protein?

I have no idea, since none of the supermarkets I know of stock them.

they're usually sold dry. a pound is about $1.50 here.

I found the price earlier under Haricot beans, and £2.94 a kg.
£1 is $1.57 at the moment, so $4.60 for a kg, or $2 a pound. The cost of the protein versus chicken was about 200%.

and that says something considerable about the raising of the chickens.

kayemme

The price of certain types of food depends solely on where you live.

true, but pound for pound, a vegetarian diet is often much cheaper.

even the bean example: a pound of chicken would yield 2 meals; a pound of beans is more like 6 meals.

_VoV

Paragraph 1: Tomatoes, Tomahtoes. You say delayed, I say denied. If a person dies waiting, what difference does it make?

Paragraph 2.:

http://www.google.com/search?q=vegan+body+builders&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NKTDT-yTLrDl6gGzqYTFAw&ved=0CHEQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=935

Pararagraph 3: You are obviously ignorant of the fact that the meat and dairy industries are heavily susidized. If you actually had to pay the REAL cost of meat it would be about $80 per pound. Bytheway, ask me how I feel about paying for your bad habits - well, if you are in the US I would be. Some other poor vegetartian in the UK is subsidizing you. Take away these subsidies and you will then find out what the cheaper option is. God, I hate government.

Paragraph 4. An *kitten* is someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I don't think I am the one here who qualifies.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ronnie+coleman&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=OqzDT--SLcmJ8gOJ6cjwCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=PKzDT9PeFs7Z8QOetoSECw

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=arnold+schwarzenegger&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=EKzDT6GsLcX58QPs2fTlCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=EqzDT8v4O9C08QPzsYXNCg

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=jay+cutler&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=XazDT9fxMMfi8QOP4PXzCg&biw=1920&bih=990&sei=X6zDT9_RCseO8gPq8PnkCg

:huh: Nobody is subsidising me. I don't have health insurance and I've paid into the NHS, as has my family, for many many years. Eating is not a bad habit, btw.

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222273207
Spinach - to obtain 200g at 28g per kg / £5.77 per kg means I would have to spend £41.

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/groceries/index.jsp?bmUID=1338222756078
Chicken - to obtain 200g at 307g per kg / £8.70 per kg means I would have to spend £5.66

Ever so slight rise in expenses to get my protein from veg.

It's interesting that you would reference a relatively expensive, low calorie vegetable like spinach for your comparison. I just made a huge pot of chickpeas ($2/lb dry). I also made soymilk (3 oz of soybeans costs 40 cents and makes a quart). Later, I will make some okara burgers, made in part from the soy pulp from the soymilk production--these are omnivore-approved by the way.

Many basic vegetarian foods are intrinsically inexpensive, tasty and good for you. Spinach is on today's menu today as a splurge. It is organic and cost me $4.00 for a bunch which will probably serve two, sauteed with garlic in a bit of olive oil.

The price of certain types of food depends solely on where you live.

Of course.

For instance, in the USA right now, many fast foods are actually cheaper than fresh fruits and vegetables PER CALORIE. But, IN GENERAL, dried beans, homemade bread, rice and other whole foods can allow you to eat frugally. Convenience faux 'meats' and the like, tend to be much more expensive than their animal flesh counterparts.

kayemme

I was trying to compare the nutritional values more than anything, and have posted some more comparisons above. Spinach is the highest-protein veg I could think of that would be relatively commonly available here. Food is a lot more expensive here in the UK from what I gather, overall. I have no problem with vegetables and eat plenty most days, as well as a lot of fruits and nuts in phases. My point is that to reach my calorie and protein requirements would cost me far too much, and require a huge amount more food, in terms of mass.

I'm pretty sure beans are higher in protein than spinach and many seeds too! pumpkin seeds, for example, are an amazing protein source. With the added benefit of fiber in legumes & vegetables, you actually need less than when your diet is meat-based because you feel fuller faster.

Then there's the bonus vegetarian poop!! Amazing! Makes you want to run around and do cartwheels!

_VoV

I found the price earlier under Haricot beans, and £2.94 a kg.
£1 is $1.57 at the moment, so $4.60 for a kg, or $2 a pound. The cost of the protein versus chicken was about 200%.

and that says something considerable about the raising of the chickens.
[/quote]

Yes, chickens are treated wretchedly as a rule. Pluck Perdue.

kayemme

Of course.

For instance, in the USA right now, many fast foods are actually cheaper than fresh fruits and vegetables PER CALORIE. But, IN GENERAL, dried beans, homemade bread, rice and other whole foods can allow you to eat frugally. Convenience faux 'meats' and the like, tend to be much more expensive than their animal flesh counterparts.

per calorie, yes; per pound, no. you know?

so yeah, you can get a $1 burger (gross) and $1 french fry, but in an hour from that point, you'll be hungry again and bloated from salt. add $1 coke to the mix and you're reaching dehydration levels compared to a 1.5lbs of broccoli or cauliflower, which could last you several meals, keep you satiated and provide many nutrients, no salt & plenty of fiber.

kayemme

people 'round here gotta eat more carbs to use their noodles. think it through!

(complex carbs, of course...)

_VoV

Of course.

For instance, in the USA right now, many fast foods are actually cheaper than fresh fruits and vegetables PER CALORIE. But, IN GENERAL, dried beans, homemade bread, rice and other whole foods can allow you to eat frugally. Convenience faux 'meats' and the like, tend to be much more expensive than their animal flesh counterparts.

per calorie, yes; per pound, no. you know?

so yeah, you can get a $1 burger (gross) and $1 french fry, but in an hour from that point, you'll be hungry again and bloated from salt. add $1 coke to the mix and you're reaching dehydration levels compared to a 1.5lbs of broccoli or cauliflower, which could last you several meals, keep you satiated and provide many nutrients, no salt & plenty of fiber.

I totally agree. But poor people who are desperate to make their money stretch may not be thinking things through. Many cultures rely on beans, rice and vegetables to feed themselves economically. Many cuisines reflect that deliciously: Asian, Indian, Mexican, Ethiopian, to name a few,

rextcat

Yeah, people can chose what they want. They can choose to smoke and do drugs. They can choose to sky dive without a parachute.

did you see that video where the gie sky dived with out the 'shoot into the pile of boxes the other day? i was like wow is he high er something?:bigsmile:
also i bleave the op was wanting to know nutitional advantiges/disadvantages to meat vs veggie diets(i could be wrong this thread has gone some places...:smokin: and aside from needing the ocasonal b12, and faty acid suplaments for veggie diets(if their not mindful of what they have been eating), and that most of us "meat eaters/omnivores" (i have eaten bugs((their crunchy when fried))) tend to eat WAY to much meat, i am not aware of any:bigsmile:

VegesaurusRex

Yeah, people can chose what they want. They can choose to smoke and do drugs. They can choose to sky dive without a parachute.

did you see that video where the gie sky dived with out the 'shoot into the pile of boxes the other day? i was like wow is he high er something?

Actually, I was referring to that video. I thought the guy should be nominated for this years Darwin Award, but since he lived, he is disqualified.

_VoV

Yeah, people can chose what they want. They can choose to smoke and do drugs. They can choose to sky dive without a parachute.

did you see that video where the gie sky dived with out the 'shoot into the pile of boxes the other day? i was like wow is he high er something?:bigsmile:
also i bleave the op was wanting to know nutitional advantiges/disadvantages to meat vs veggie diets(i could be wrong this thread has gone some places...:smokin: and aside from needing the ocasonal b12, and faty acid suplaments for veggie diets(if their not mindful of what they have been eating), and that most of us "meat eaters/omnivores" (i have eaten bugs((their crunchy when fried))) tend to eat WAY to much meat, i am not aware of any:bigsmile:

Since conversation is fluid, it tends to go in various directions, but this has mostly been centered on veganism--nutritional, economic, and ethical aspects. The OP has been very active, and has asked various questions evolving from the discussion at different points, but this is a long thread, and perhaps that fact is lost in the length of it.

Rhea30

Of course.

For instance, in the USA right now, many fast foods are actually cheaper than fresh fruits and vegetables PER CALORIE. But, IN GENERAL, dried beans, homemade bread, rice and other whole foods can allow you to eat frugally. Convenience faux 'meats' and the like, tend to be much more expensive than their animal flesh counterparts.

per calorie, yes; per pound, no. you know?

so yeah, you can get a $1 burger (gross) and $1 french fry, but in an hour from that point, you'll be hungry again and bloated from salt. add $1 coke to the mix and you're reaching dehydration levels compared to a 1.5lbs of broccoli or cauliflower, which could last you several meals, keep you satiated and provide many nutrients, no salt & plenty of fiber.

I totally agree. But poor people who are desperate to make their money stretch may not be thinking things through. Many cultures rely on beans, rice and vegetables to feed themselves economically. Many cuisines reflect that deliciously: Asian, Indian, Mexican, Ethiopian, to name a few,

And those are foods that are in their region which reflect price.

VeganInTraining

I do want to know if any of the vegans or vegetarians on here miss eating meat. I live in NJ and miss Taylor Ham. That is really the only thing I miss, small sacrifice I guess.

I wish I had time to read all 30 pages of this thread but I don't....I just wanted to pop on and say no, I don't miss meat. I'm not 100% veggie yet but I'm getting there. I had a bbq this weekend and a friend brought his award winning ribs. I tried a small bite and enjoyed the seasoning but not the meat. It really confirmed for me that it's not the meat that tastes so good it's the seasoning....I made myself some curried lentil burgers and topped them with pineapples and enjoyed them more than I have ever enjoyed a "real" burger