Meat eating vs. Vegan debate
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Of course.
For instance, in the USA right now, many fast foods are actually cheaper than fresh fruits and vegetables PER CALORIE. But, IN GENERAL, dried beans, homemade bread, rice and other whole foods can allow you to eat frugally. Convenience faux 'meats' and the like, tend to be much more expensive than their animal flesh counterparts.
per calorie, yes; per pound, no. you know?
so yeah, you can get a $1 burger (gross) and $1 french fry, but in an hour from that point, you'll be hungry again and bloated from salt. add $1 coke to the mix and you're reaching dehydration levels compared to a 1.5lbs of broccoli or cauliflower, which could last you several meals, keep you satiated and provide many nutrients, no salt & plenty of fiber.
I totally agree. But poor people who are desperate to make their money stretch may not be thinking things through. Many cultures rely on beans, rice and vegetables to feed themselves economically. Many cuisines reflect that deliciously: Asian, Indian, Mexican, Ethiopian, to name a few,
And those are foods that are in their region which reflect price.
@Rhea30: You seem determined to make this point that food prices vary on the region. For the second time, I am agreeing with you--it's true that food prices vary by region. It's obvious you think this is an important point, but I have a question for you: do you think plant-food staples like beans, rice, flour, etc. are very expensive in relationship to animal products in some areas of the world? I'm not talking fragile, highly perishable produce. I'm talking shelf-stable whole foods that can be found in bulk bins at natural food stores or in the middle sections of the grocery stores.
Just as bread is heavily subsidized in France to make it affordable by all, the meat and dairy industries are heavily subsidized here in the USA to make those products artificially inexpensive (relative to the true production cost). So, in essence, US citizens are all paying a tax to keep certain prices deflated.
I am not hoping to make one-on-one comparisons on the cost of soybeans in the UK vs the northeastern US. Rather, I am hoping to give a glimpse into what we do here, since I think many people have no idea what goes on in a vegan household. Even here, I am sure I could go to an exclusive specialty food shop and pay a LOT for a small sack of soybeans wrapped with a colorful ribbon on top, but all I can do is make reasonable descriptions of how a budget-conscious vegan family behaves.0 -
food prices vary by region but also do costs of living / wages and other factors. In the end it comes out about the same... I have been researching this for over a decade: a vegetarian diet based on whole foods is (without question) less expensive than a "typical" American diet.
It is a perpetuated myth that it is cheaper to buy fast food. Not only is it a myth in actual cash expenditure, it is a myth in other factors including health costs, driving costs, environmental costs and landfill costs.
I will make the exclusion one more time, for those that missed it: there are very real existences where fresh food is not readily available. In those cases, my argument is invalid. I don't want anyone to think that I don't recognize that food deserts exist, but that is a completely different set of values to discuss.0 -
food prices vary by region but also do costs of living / wages and other factors. In the end it comes out about the same... I have been researching this for over a decade: a vegetarian diet based on whole foods is (without question) less expensive than a "typical" American diet.
It is a perpetuated myth that it is cheaper to buy fast food. Not only is it a myth in actual cash expenditure, it is a myth in other factors including health costs, driving costs, environmental costs and landfill costs.
I will make the exclusion one more time, for those that missed it: there are very real existences where fresh food is not readily available. In those cases, my argument is invalid. I don't want anyone to think that I don't recognize that food deserts exist, but that is a completely different set of values to discuss.
Yes, if you're just comparing it to fast food and depends what you consider a typical American diet. Many poor people can't afford fast food.0 -
Of course.
For instance, in the USA right now, many fast foods are actually cheaper than fresh fruits and vegetables PER CALORIE. But, IN GENERAL, dried beans, homemade bread, rice and other whole foods can allow you to eat frugally. Convenience faux 'meats' and the like, tend to be much more expensive than their animal flesh counterparts.
per calorie, yes; per pound, no. you know?
so yeah, you can get a $1 burger (gross) and $1 french fry, but in an hour from that point, you'll be hungry again and bloated from salt. add $1 coke to the mix and you're reaching dehydration levels compared to a 1.5lbs of broccoli or cauliflower, which could last you several meals, keep you satiated and provide many nutrients, no salt & plenty of fiber.
I totally agree. But poor people who are desperate to make their money stretch may not be thinking things through. Many cultures rely on beans, rice and vegetables to feed themselves economically. Many cuisines reflect that deliciously: Asian, Indian, Mexican, Ethiopian, to name a few,
And those are foods that are in their region which reflect price.
@Rhea30: You seem determined to make this point that food prices vary on the region. For the second time, I am agreeing with you--it's true that food prices vary by region. It's obvious you think this is an important point, but I have a question for you: do you think plant-food staples like beans, rice, flour, etc. are very expensive in relationship to animal products in some areas of the world? I'm not talking fragile, highly perishable produce. I'm talking shelf-stable whole foods that can be found in bulk bins at natural food stores or in the middle sections of the grocery stores.
Just as bread is heavily subsidized in France to make it affordable by all, the meat and dairy industries are heavily subsidized here in the USA to make those products artificially inexpensive (relative to the true production cost). So, in essence, US citizens are all paying a tax to keep certain prices deflated.
I am not hoping to make one-on-one comparisons on the cost of soybeans in the UK vs the northeastern US. Rather, I am hoping to give a glimpse into what we do here, since I think many people have no idea what goes on in a vegan household. Even here, I am sure I could go to an exclusive specialty food shop and pay a LOT for a small sack of soybeans wrapped with a colorful ribbon on top, but all I can do is make reasonable descriptions of how a budget-conscious vegan family behaves.
Its a point when one is claiming veggies are less expensive, it depends on the item itself and where, that's all I'm saying. And then it depends if you feel its healthy or not to just live off those types of food which we would clash.0 -
From the onset of this discussion about the cost of eating plants vs eating animal foods, I have not said that one is cheaper than the other, per se. For instance, I talked about paying $4.00 for a bunch of organic spinach to serve two people---not cheap, and not sustainable for my budget if I wanted to eat only spinach.
Faux 'meats' and 'cheeses' can be very pricey, and certainly double or triple the cost by comparison to the actual animal product it endeavors to imitate. Same with non-dairy milks. A vegan diet can be very expensive if you rely on certain convenience foods. But, that said, I can also come up with a budget-minded vegan diet anywhere in the world, if I learn about which staples are low-cost. Taro root might be a staple in Hawaii, rice in Asia, etc.
Meat is relatively cheap in this country because we are all taxed to keep it that way. The taxes are then given out as farm subsidies. But, the cost is disguised somewhat at the cash register. Is this making any sense whatsoever?0 -
Not reading a lick of this debate because, really, its a personal choice. I am a vegetarian. I don't push that on anyone. My boyfriend can eat all the meat he wants, why? Because its his choice. I think factory farming is terrible, so I try to encourage him to eat organic and animals that are able to move and graze and what not. I also think that hunting is better than factory farming, and fishing is better than purchasing fish farmed fishies. You won't convince anyone to become a vegetarian unless they already have it in them to be so. Meat eaters aren't going to convince vegans and vegetarians that their way is better either. To each their own.0
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Not reading a lick of this debate because, really, its a personal choice. I am a vegetarian. I don't push that on anyone. My boyfriend can eat all the meat he wants, why? Because its his choice. I think factory farming is terrible, so I try to encourage him to eat organic and animals that are able to move and graze and what not. I also think that hunting is better than factory farming, and fishing is better than purchasing fish farmed fishies. You won't convince anyone to become a vegetarian unless they already have it in them to be so. Meat eaters aren't going to convince vegans and vegetarians that their way is better either. To each their own.
It's certainly your choice to see it that way. In fact, I very much agree that the only people who might actually be influenced by a discussion like this are half way to that point anyway.
I actually am not here to convince anyone to be a vegetarian. Still, this is a topic near and dear to my heart, and I am trying my best to explain my point of view for anyone who might be interested. I believe there are many myths about vegetarianism, which I try to dispel with facts when I can. It's not that I want to convince someone to go veg. It's that I want that person to understand that there's nothing dangerous about it, so maybe when they meet another vegan, the conversation might go smoother.0 -
From the onset of this discussion about the cost of eating plants vs eating animal foods, I have not said that one is cheaper than the other, per se. For instance, I talked about paying $4.00 for a bunch of organic spinach to serve two people---not cheap, and not sustainable for my budget if I wanted to eat only spinach.
Faux 'meats' and 'cheeses' can be very pricey, and certainly double or triple the cost of the animal product lookalike. Same with non-dairy milks. A vegan diet can be very expensive if you rely on certain convenience foods. But, that said, I can also come up with a budget-minded vegan diet anywhere in the world, if I learn about which staples are low-cost. Taro root might be a staple in Hawaii, rice in Asia, etc.
Meat is relatively cheap in this country because we are all taxed to keep it that way. The taxes are then given out as farm subsidies. But, the cost is disguised somewhat at the cash register. Is this making any sense whatsoever?
I had some posts wrong then, I just know a good way to stretch food sometimes is finding a ground meat that is on sell and you can then mix it with beans or potato things like that to stretch it out and feed a family but when I think of it it probably has alot to do what you find important and how you see health. Since I wouldn't see the meat as unhealthy but also a good staple food for nutrient I would want it and find ways to stretch it compare to someone who does so yeah I guess my posts really are mute. things like that to stretch it out and feed a family.
Of course i think the cheapest way to go about getting food if you can in your area is just get a chicken and have a veggie garden
Lately I've been making turkey burgers that is mix with zucchini since its zucchini season and it has made a lot of burgers they'll last me for the week with two zucchinis and 2lbs of turkey meat which I had today and enjoying. I actually eat more meat now probably then I did before I was watching my health and my health has improved alot but I'm picking better choices overall instead of processed foods even though I don't think processed foods are evil, we're pretty lucky to have them since they are very cheap if you don't got the money but that is why I don't buy the whole thing about meat is unhealthy, its all about balance.
Pasta is probably what I ate to much of before, and peanut butter, I had to cut back alot on peanut butter but that's why I say health is subjective, and I truly don't believe in a bad or good food unless it has trans fats. I have never stated fast food is cheaper (thats to another poster who had posted about that), if anything fast food is expensive and people who do think its cheaper are probably people who are just thinking on how much they get (portion size) which really isn't good and unhealthy.0 -
From the onset of this discussion about the cost of eating plants vs eating animal foods, I have not said that one is cheaper than the other, per se. For instance, I talked about paying $4.00 for a bunch of organic spinach to serve two people---not cheap, and not sustainable for my budget if I wanted to eat only spinach.
Faux 'meats' and 'cheeses' can be very pricey, and certainly double or triple the cost of the animal product lookalike. Same with non-dairy milks. A vegan diet can be very expensive if you rely on certain convenience foods. But, that said, I can also come up with a budget-minded vegan diet anywhere in the world, if I learn about which staples are low-cost. Taro root might be a staple in Hawaii, rice in Asia, etc.
Meat is relatively cheap in this country because we are all taxed to keep it that way. The taxes are then given out as farm subsidies. But, the cost is disguised somewhat at the cash register. Is this making any sense whatsoever?
I had some posts wrong then, I just know a good way to stretch food sometimes is finding a ground meat that is on sell and you can then mix it with beans or potato things like that to stretch it out and feed a family but when I think of it it probably has alot to do what you find important and how you see health. Since I wouldn't see the meat as unhealthy but also a good staple food for nutrient I would want it and find ways to stretch it compare to someone who does so yeah I guess my posts really are mute. things like that to stretch it out and feed a family.
Of course i think the cheapest way to go about getting food if you can in your area is just get a chicken and have a veggie garden Lately I've been making turkey burgers that is mix with zucchini since its zucchini season and it has made a lot of burgers they'll last me for the week with two zucchinis and 2lbs of turkey meat which I had today and enjoying. I actually eat more meat now probably then I did before I was watching my health and my health has improved alot but I'm picking better choices overall instead of processed foods even though I don't think processed foods are evil, we're pretty lucky to have them since they are very cheap if you don't got the money but that is why I don't buy the whole thing about meat is unhealthy, its all about balance.
Pasta is probably what I ate to much of before, and peanut butter, I had to cut back alot on peanut butter but that's why I say health is subjective, and I truly don't believe in a bad or good food unless it has trans fats. I have never stated fast food is cheaper (thats to another poster who had posted about that), if anything fast food is expensive and people who do think its cheaper are probably people who are just thinking on how much they get (portion size) which really isn't good and unhealthy.
I truly understand what you are saying--ground meat can stretch a meal to feed a family, especially when it's on sale. I grew up the child of parents who experienced the depression. They did 5-acre homesteading before it got really popular. We had chickens, turkeys, and cattle, plus a 1-acre vegetable garden. It was very economical at the time, but a lot of work as I recall. I'm not sure it would work in this time when a second income is almost a necessity for families now.
I'm with you on pasta and peanut butter being good for the pocketbook, but not so good for the waistline. Lately, instead of pasta, I make myself a dish of chickpeas, topped with roasted veggies and marinara sauce. The nutrition profile is better, and it's actually more filling. That swap of chickpeas for pasta isn't an expensive one, but an example of how I try to maximize the nutrition while keeping costs down.
I understand that time and money are limited in most households during these times, and that various strategies work to feed a family within a tight budget. I'm glad you are finding ways to make things work better for yourself for health, fitness and financial success.0 -
Yeah, but when people go veg, they tend to eat a whole lot of beans. All that fiber... Do you know what they mean when they say there's a log in the fire? Just sayin...0
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I have never stated fast food is cheaper (thats to another poster who had posted about that), if anything fast food is expensive and people who do think its cheaper are probably people who are just thinking on how much they get (portion size) which really isn't good and unhealthy.
in the event that you meant me as other poster, I didn't think you said that
I understood you were saying the same thing I was saying, I forget what I was responding to exactly.
and you're right: growing your own lowers costs considerably. and it's FUN!
But still, no, I don't miss meat and no, I'm not trying to convince anyone to switch to a vegetarian diet, though I do think it is a better way to go in general.0 -
Yeah, but when people go veg, they tend to eat a whole lot of beans. All that fiber... Do you know what they mean when they say there's a log in the fire? Just sayin...
>>this girl<< gets it!
and beans ain't got nothin' on broccoli, yo! whooooo!0 -
I went sky high over my fiber this weekend, so I've got it too, if you know what I mean.Yeah, but when people go veg, they tend to eat a whole lot of beans. All that fiber... Do you know what they mean when they say there's a log in the fire? Just sayin...
>>this girl<< gets it!
and beans ain't got nothin' on broccoli, yo! whooooo!0 -
I eat whatever I enjoy. I don't care whatever other people prefer. I live in a free country.0
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food prices vary by region but also do costs of living / wages and other factors. In the end it comes out about the same... I have been researching this for over a decade: a vegetarian diet based on whole foods is (without question) less expensive than a "typical" American diet.
It is a perpetuated myth that it is cheaper to buy fast food. Not only is it a myth in actual cash expenditure, it is a myth in other factors including health costs, driving costs, environmental costs and landfill costs.
I will make the exclusion one more time, for those that missed it: there are very real existences where fresh food is not readily available. In those cases, my argument is invalid. I don't want anyone to think that I don't recognize that food deserts exist, but that is a completely different set of values to discuss.
Yes, if you're just comparing it to fast food and depends what you consider a typical American diet. Many poor people can't afford fast food.
On the contrary, the crap that MacDonnalds sells is specifically targeted at poor people. $1 burger, $1 fries, $1 soda. What the poor can't afford are health clubs, vegetarian restaurants, and fresh fruit. The reason they can't afford fresh fruit is because they generally have only mom and pop neighborhood stores, not large supermarkets. Mom and Pop stores sell crap because that is what sells.
The poor in the United States are in pathetic shape. They are more overweight, diabetic and chronically ill than any other class. That is because the morons who run our country and who we keep electing have brought about institutionalized bread and circuses : meat and dairy subsidies. They dump all the crap they can't sell into public school cafeterias, they subsidize meat so MacDonnalds can make a fortune, and they don't bother to teach the poor about nutrition. Of course the government is at fault, but the poor themselves are to blame. With the Internet they should be able to find out what is good and wha tis bad, and help themselves.
But I suppose, from what I've seen here, from a relatively health conscious group, even interested and educated people are capable of coming to foolish conclusions.0 -
Of course.
For instance, in the USA right now, many fast foods are actually cheaper than fresh fruits and vegetables PER CALORIE. But, IN GENERAL, dried beans, homemade bread, rice and other whole foods can allow you to eat frugally. Convenience faux 'meats' and the like, tend to be much more expensive than their animal flesh counterparts.
per calorie, yes; per pound, no. you know?
so yeah, you can get a $1 burger (gross) and $1 french fry, but in an hour from that point, you'll be hungry again and bloated from salt. add $1 coke to the mix and you're reaching dehydration levels compared to a 1.5lbs of broccoli or cauliflower, which could last you several meals, keep you satiated and provide many nutrients, no salt & plenty of fiber.
I totally agree. But poor people who are desperate to make their money stretch may not be thinking things through. Many cultures rely on beans, rice and vegetables to feed themselves economically. Many cuisines reflect that deliciously: Asian, Indian, Mexican, Ethiopian, to name a few,
And those are foods that are in their region which reflect price.
@Rhea30: You seem determined to make this point that food prices vary on the region. For the second time, I am agreeing with you--it's true that food prices vary by region. It's obvious you think this is an important point, but I have a question for you: do you think plant-food staples like beans, rice, flour, etc. are very expensive in relationship to animal products in some areas of the world? I'm not talking fragile, highly perishable produce. I'm talking shelf-stable whole foods that can be found in bulk bins at natural food stores or in the middle sections of the grocery stores.
Just as bread is heavily subsidized in France to make it affordable by all, the meat and dairy industries are heavily subsidized here in the USA to make those products artificially inexpensive (relative to the true production cost). So, in essence, US citizens are all paying a tax to keep certain prices deflated.
I am not hoping to make one-on-one comparisons on the cost of soybeans in the UK vs the northeastern US. Rather, I am hoping to give a glimpse into what we do here, since I think many people have no idea what goes on in a vegan household. Even here, I am sure I could go to an exclusive specialty food shop and pay a LOT for a small sack of soybeans wrapped with a colorful ribbon on top, but all I can do is make reasonable descriptions of how a budget-conscious vegan family behaves.
Its a point when one is claiming veggies are less expensive, it depends on the item itself and where, that's all I'm saying. And then it depends if you feel its healthy or not to just live off those types of food which we would clash.
Veggies ARE less expensive. The only reason it does not appear so is that our Sheetheaded politicians subsidize meat and dairy, so we all pay a tax to keep that industry profitable. If we had a free market in food, you sure would see the difference. Everywhere. And the country would be a lot healthier.0 -
I eat whatever I enjoy. I don't care whatever other people prefer. I live in a free country.
Yup. Your free to eat meat, do drugs and smoke. But please, just don't come to me for health care.0 -
I eat whatever I enjoy. I don't care whatever other people prefer. I live in a free country.
Yup. Your free to eat meat, do drugs and smoke. But please, just don't come to me for health care.
As I've stated with myself, I eat more meat now and I'm in better shape when it comes to my health. Maybe you should of paid for my healthcare when I was hardly touching meat then and my health was going downhill. Also to your fast food, what you mentioned would of been a 3 dollar meal for one person, that's still a lot of money when you have a family, you got to find staple foods when you're poor that last and stretch, fast food doesn't do it.0 -
I eat whatever I enjoy. I don't care whatever other people prefer. I live in a free country.
Yup. Your free to eat meat, do drugs and smoke. But please, just don't come to me for health care.
As I've stated with myself, I eat more meat now and I'm in better shape when it comes to my health. Maybe you should of paid for my healthcare when I was hardly touching meat then and my health was going downhill. Also to your fast food, what you mentioned would of been a 3 dollar meal for one person, that's still a lot of money when you have a family, you got to find staple foods when you're poor that last and stretch, fast food doesn't do it.
And just what healthcare did you need from a vegetarian diet? This I have got to hear. Did you get cancer from carrots? Diabetes from date pumbs? Heart disase from Harvard Beets? I've met many people who claimed that they got weaker because they ate vegetarian. Maybe they did. Or maybe it was just in their mind. As a vegetarian, I have run marathons, skiied the Alps, the West (Taos) and every major resort in New England, and Mont Tremblant. I got my black belt in Shaolin Kempo Karate. I bike dozens of miles a week. I work out. Gee, I guess my body is just radically different from everyone elses. Oh, yeah, and I am 69 years old. a vegetarian since 1979, and I have never felt better. How long exactly were you vegetarian?
Oh, and if you think $3 per person for a meal is expensive, then I would seriously like to know how you feed your family for less.0 -
I can see your point now. Steve Jobs was a vegetarian for about that long too and he is the pinnacle of health. I wonder what he's doing right now. Maybe he's climbing a mountain or sailing. Oh. My bad. He just died from cancer.I eat whatever I enjoy. I don't care whatever other people prefer. I live in a free country.
Yup. Your free to eat meat, do drugs and smoke. But please, just don't come to me for health care.
As I've stated with myself, I eat more meat now and I'm in better shape when it comes to my health. Maybe you should of paid for my healthcare when I was hardly touching meat then and my health was going downhill. Also to your fast food, what you mentioned would of been a 3 dollar meal for one person, that's still a lot of money when you have a family, you got to find staple foods when you're poor that last and stretch, fast food doesn't do it.
And just what healthcare did you need from a vegetarian diet? This I have got to hear. Did you get cancer from carrots? Diabetes from date pumbs? Heart disase from Harvard Beets? I've met many people who claimed that they got weaker because they ate vegetarian. Maybe they did. Or maybe it was just in their mind. As a vegetarian, I have run marathons, skiied the Alps, the West (Taos) and every major resort in New England, and Mont Tremblant. I got my black belt in Shaolin Kempo Karate. I bike dozens of miles a week. I work out. Gee, I guess my body is just radically different from everyone elses. Oh, yeah, and I am 69 years old. a vegetarian since 1979, and I have never felt better. How long exactly were you vegetarian?
Oh, and if you think $3 per person for a meal is expensive, then I would seriously like to know how you feed your family for less.
By the by, not to get off topic, but I studied a little martial arts, myself. I prefer the more 'traditional' approach of learning with an actual teacher over a mail order black belt with every purchase of an instructional DVD method that SKK uses. Anyway, back to soy beans and cancer.0
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