Slow Runners Unite - How to Increase Speed?!?!?!

stingray_11

I agree with CarsonRuns. You need a good base then start doing speed work. I use to race 5k, 10k and Marathon as well as Ironman triathlons. I would do speed work on the track. 800 m fast run then 800m slow jog. Work your way up to 8-10 reps. You can also do speed runs on the road, run fast from utility pole to utility pole then jog the same and repeat. Hill runs will also help your speed. Find a good size hill about 1/4 to 1/2 mile long and do repeats.

ROBJ3411

Some good advice and some not so much....

Here are a couple of things I would suggest:

1. running more to make you faster only works to a certain extent and may be the least effective way to do it.
2. If you want to run faster, then run faster-ie fartleks, intervals, Tempo runs(run a shorter distance at a faster pace.)
3. Weigh loss equals speed- already stated but a true fact...
4. Strength equals speed. Adding some Stength work will make you stronger and faster( running hills is an example, but weight training is also very effective.
5. Cardio- need to build the Cardio base to sustain. this is where running MORE helps. but there are many other ways to get this done...

CarsonRuns

1. running more to make you faster only works to a certain extent and may be the least effective way to do it.

Least effective how? This is how the fastest people in the world do it. I think that makes it effective.

5. Cardio- need to build the Cardio base to sustain. this is where running MORE helps. but there are many other ways to get this done...

Aerobic fitness gained from other activities does not translate into an aerobic base that can be used for running hard intervals and similar workouts. You need the running fitness to ensure that all the muscles, tendons and ligaments being used can handle the stress of the workout in addition to the aerobic base.

ROBJ3411

1. running more to make you faster only works to a certain extent and may be the least effective way to do it.

Least effective how? This is how the fastest people in the world do it. I think that makes it effective.

I think the fastest people in the world do alot of speed work to get fast. lets no confuse elite level athletes with beginners. the prescription is not the same.

Aerobic fitness gained from other activities does not translate into an aerobic base that can be used for running hard intervals and similar workouts. You need the running fitness to ensure that all the muscles, tendons and ligaments being used can handle the stress of the workout in addition to the aerobic base.

I disagree- running is NOT the only thing that makes you a better runner. I've seen guys in their 30s that have been running for a long time decrease their 5k time doing nothing more then CrossFit.

PANZERIA

Bump!

CarsonRuns

I think the fastest people in the world do alot of speed work to get fast. lets no confuse elite level athletes with beginners. the prescription is not the same.

You would be thinking wrong. The volume of speed work, compared to total mileage, is not very different for what would be prescribed for an amateur level runner. Read "Daniels Running Formula".

I disagree- running is NOT the only thing that makes you a better runner. I've seen guys in their 30s that have been running for a long time decrease their 5k time doing nothing more then CrossFit.

Right. Guys that have been running for a long time, so they already have the tissue structure to handle the stresses. A beginning runner doesn't and they won't get it from doing 30DS or CrossFit. They try to roll into those hard workouts without having the running fitness and they'll end up hurt.

ETA: I agree that running is not the only thing that makes you a better runner. Other activities help. But, to maximize your potential as a runner you have to run. You don't become a better bowler by playing darts.

ROBJ3411

I think the fastest people in the world do alot of speed work to get fast. lets no confuse elite level athletes with beginners. the prescription is not the same.

You would be thinking wrong. The volume of speed work, compared to total mileage, is not very different for what would be prescribed for an amateur level runner. Read "Daniels Running Formula".

I disagree- running is NOT the only thing that makes you a better runner. I've seen guys in their 30s that have been running for a long time decrease their 5k time doing nothing more then CrossFit.

Right. Guys that have been running for a long time, so they already have the tissue structure to handle the stresses. A beginning runner doesn't and they won't get it from doing 30DS or CrossFit. They try to roll into those hard workouts without having the running fitness and they'll end up hurt.

ETA: I agree that running is not the only thing that makes you a better runner. Other activities help. But, to maximize your potential as a runner you have to run. You don't become a better bowler by playing darts.

Sorry I had to walk away from this yesterday, work called. I think OP's original question was "how to get faster." Now I stand by what I said originally that "more running" is probably one of the least effective ways to get faster. My wife is a prime example. She ran 15-20 up to 25 miles a week for an extended period of time with no real goal and NO speed work and she maintained an average running pace that was very similar to the OPs. now she went from running 2-3, 11min mile to 4-5 11 min miles but her speed didn't really improve. May be a bit antidotal but...

I've not read Daniels, but have read several books on running, training, and triathlon, so I understand that almost all programs include a mileage or LSD aspect to the program and there are plenty of valid reasons to run mileage, but increasing speed is not the primary. I just happen to pick up the Jun'12 RW last night and guess what was on the front cover- Run your best 5K- BL- the program for breaking 30mins had 1 interval run, one tempo run and one Mileage run (LSD) and two recovery runs. So yes as part of a well rounded program LSD/Mileage runs are a key element, but as a standalone they would not be my first(2nd or 3rd) choice to increase speed.

Now many of the first timer programs delay or even eliminate the introduction of of speed work but the goal of many of these programs is to finish not run faster. Programs like the one found "Idiots guide to HRMs" use a easy/Hard day approach with Tempo-type runs serving as the vast runs, but once again it is not mileage that makes one faster.

There is also a growing body of research that shows that LSD is unnecessary and possibly a cause to the rash of running related injuries that plague beginner and pro runners alike. The theories out there suggest that HIT/speed and strength work have the same if not better results than the old school LSD/mileage mentality. Now once again we are not talking elite level nor ultra distance athletes we are talking novice runners looking to get better.

I am not saying this will work for everyone nor that everyone should try it. But I am testing the theory currently. I'm using Crossfit Endurance(12 week cycles) as the basis for my preparation for an Oly Tri, the Army 10-miler and a 1/2 Mary. We shall see how it works, at least for one ol' dude.

CarsonRuns

Points well taken. There are going to be some things we don't agree on and that's fine by me.

But I am testing the theory currently. I'm using Crossfit Endurance(12 week cycles) as the basis for my preparation for an Oly Tri, the Army 10-miler and a 1/2 Mary. We shall see how it works, at least for one ol' dude.

I'm interested in your results. I'll train the traditional way and we'll compare HM time improvements. I assume you'll be running yours in the Fall. I'll run one some time in early September in preparation for the Baystate Marathon. I know a sampling of two is a small group, but it will be interesting anyway.

ROBJ3411

Points well taken. There are going to be some things we don't agree on and that's fine by me.

But I am testing the theory currently. I'm using Crossfit Endurance(12 week cycles) as the basis for my preparation for an Oly Tri, the Army 10-miler and a 1/2 Mary. We shall see how it works, at least for one ol' dude.

I'm interested in your results. I'll train the traditional way and we'll compare HM time improvements. I assume you'll be running yours in the Fall. I'll run one some time in early September in preparation for the Baystate Marathon. I know a sampling of two is a small group, but it will be interesting anyway.

I'll concede that you have more skills in quotes and emoticons...

My OLY is in August, Army 10 miler in OCT,1/2 Mary in Nov...Tough Mudder in Dec...Full IM next spring

I know old dogs don't necessarily want to learn new tricks (and that is not a shot at all). One thing I've found is there are a lot of ways to get results and different things work for different people; My intent was to provide some of those others on here with some tools I've accumulated over the past couple of decades...

timboom1

My wife is a prime example. She ran 15-20 up to 25 miles a week for an extended period of time with no real goal and NO speed work and she maintained an average running pace that was very similar to the OPs. now she went from running 2-3, 11min mile to 4-5 11 min miles but her speed didn't really improve. May be a bit antidotal but...

I think the other posiibility here is that what used to be your wife's easy pace is the same but her effort got alot easier, meaning that she was probably faster if the percieved effort were the same. My wife does no speed work and no 30DS and no crossfit, just runs miles. She does it by feel so she has no idea until race day how fast she is, only that her runs feel either easy or hard based on perceived effort. In 1 year she went from an 8:35 pace in a 10K to a 8:24 pace in her first Half to an 8:06 pace in her second half.

I don't think there is a real question that if you can run 5 miles at pace X, you can run 3 at a pace less than X, if you want to.

On the other hand, taking some days off from running may also be helping your wife as she may have been running tired alot of the time.

scottb81

Here is my experience and why I believe that high mileage aerobic running works.

I started running in Feb 11 after doing basically nothing for nearly 4 years. Ran a marathon in Nov 11 in 3:50 (8:47 pace). After the marathon I did six weeks of high mileage, average around 70 mi/wk and ran a half marathon in Jan in 1:35 (7:17 pace). Then I continued the high mileage until March and ran a 5K in 20:10 (6:30 pace). All of this was with zero speedwork. I did do a weekly tempo run but that's not speedwork.

SInce then I have started speedwork and will have to wait for another race to see the effect - positive or negative.

Volume works and also sets you up for long term improvement. Speedwork without aerobic volume gives you a couple of months improvement until no further improvement is possible without improving the aerobic system.

arc918

Here is my experience and why I believe that high mileage aerobic running works.

I started running in Feb 11 after doing basically nothing for nearly 4 years. Ran a marathon in Nov 11 in 3:50 (8:47 pace). After the marathon I did six weeks of high mileage, average around 70 mi/wk and ran a half marathon in Jan in 1:35 (7:17 pace). Then I continued the high mileage until March and ran a 5K in 20:10 (6:30 pace). All of this was with zero speedwork. I did do a weekly tempo run but that's not speedwork.

SInce then I have started speedwork and will have to wait for another race to see the effect - positive or negative.

Volume works and also sets you up for long term improvement. Speedwork without aerobic volume gives you a couple of months improvement until no further improvement is possible without improving the aerobic system.

But I just ordered the book "Run your best marathon on 13 miles per week..."

CarsonRuns

Volume works and also sets you up for long term improvement. Speedwork without aerobic volume gives you a couple of months improvement until no further improvement is possible without improving the aerobic system.

That sums it up nicely.

CarsonRuns

But I just ordered the book "Run your best marathon on 13 miles per week..."

Do you have to run all 13 at MP? :laugh:

arc918

But I just ordered the book "Run your best marathon on 13 miles per week..."

Do you have to run all 13 at MP? :laugh:

You sprint them. After running all 13 miles at 50 meter pace, the marathon will feel easy!

michellekicks

Fartleks, hill sprints, hill repeats, more mileage, lose pounds.

But here's my advice for what it's worth: You won't be able to get as good at your running as you could otherwise if you don't fuel your body. If you're running and aiming to get faster and go farther, if you're racing and want to get in better shape, you shouldn't aim for a 2 lb/week weight loss. You should set up your calories to net whatever MFP says to net if you set your goal to lose .5 lbs/week. More of a calorie deficit and you're not going to be able to fuel all the running you need to do to get faster and go farther. At least not in the best way you can. If you feel you must try losing faster, go for 1 lb/week... but 2 is just crazy IMHO for a runner.

EDITED TO ADD: your speed work and high intensity stuff should be less than 20% of your mileage. Everything else should be simply aerobic miles.

ROBJ3411

My wife is a prime example. She ran 15-20 up to 25 miles a week for an extended period of time with no real goal and NO speed work and she maintained an average running pace that was very similar to the OPs. now she went from running 2-3, 11min mile to 4-5 11 min miles but her speed didn't really improve. May be a bit antidotal but...

I think the other posiibility here is that what used to be your wife's easy pace is the same but her effort got alot easier, meaning that she was probably faster if the percieved effort were the same. My wife does no speed work and no 30DS and no crossfit, just runs miles. She does it by feel so she has no idea until race day how fast she is, only that her runs feel either easy or hard based on perceived effort. In 1 year she went from an 8:35 pace in a 10K to a 8:24 pace in her first Half to an 8:06 pace in her second half.

I don't think there is a real question that if you can run 5 miles at pace X, you can run 3 at a pace less than X, if you want to.

On the other hand, taking some days off from running may also be helping your wife as she may have been running tired alot of the time.

Nope, She just ran feel, building slowly and running much of the time without timing her runs at all. She walked (with a stroller) and ran. We ran a few 5Ks and 10Ks and throughout her per mile times were very similar for like events. Now I preface this by saying my wife was relatively fit and as stated different stuff works for different people. Plus I've never said mileage WON'T increase speed, I said it is the least effective....She has begun running again after a long layoff; mixing in strength and speed with her mileage runs with good results.

ROBJ3411

But I just ordered the book "Run your best marathon on 13 miles per week..."

Do you have to run all 13 at MP? :laugh:

You sprint them. After running all 13 miles at 50 meter pace, the marathon will feel easy!

And I believe that would be called a Tempo run( to the extreme)

CarsonRuns

But I just ordered the book "Run your best marathon on 13 miles per week..."

Do you have to run all 13 at MP? :laugh:

You sprint them. After running all 13 miles at 50 meter pace, the marathon will feel easy!

And I believe that would be called a Tempo run( to the extreme)

I think it would be called suicidal.

timboom1

My wife is a prime example. She ran 15-20 up to 25 miles a week for an extended period of time with no real goal and NO speed work and she maintained an average running pace that was very similar to the OPs. now she went from running 2-3, 11min mile to 4-5 11 min miles but her speed didn't really improve. May be a bit antidotal but...

I think the other posiibility here is that what used to be your wife's easy pace is the same but her effort got alot easier, meaning that she was probably faster if the percieved effort were the same. My wife does no speed work and no 30DS and no crossfit, just runs miles. She does it by feel so she has no idea until race day how fast she is, only that her runs feel either easy or hard based on perceived effort. In 1 year she went from an 8:35 pace in a 10K to a 8:24 pace in her first Half to an 8:06 pace in her second half.

I don't think there is a real question that if you can run 5 miles at pace X, you can run 3 at a pace less than X, if you want to.

On the other hand, taking some days off from running may also be helping your wife as she may have been running tired alot of the time.

Nope, She just ran feel, building slowly and running much of the time without timing her runs at all. She walked (with a stroller) and ran. We ran a few 5Ks and 10Ks and throughout her per mile times were very similar for like events. Now I preface this by saying my wife was relatively fit and as stated different stuff works for different people. Plus I've never said mileage WON'T increase speed, I said it is the least effective....She has begun running again after a long layoff; mixing in strength and speed with her mileage runs with good results.

Different strokes I guess. Still doesn't add up 5Ks and 10Ks are at the same pace. My inclination is that the 5K is slower than it could be if she has the ability to run 2x as far at the same pace (and I suspect both are slower than they could be), thus the thought that the pace was the same but it felt easier. It just doesn''t make since that they woiuld be the same pace based on physical ability alone, but rather is more of a result of training at the same pace all the time so that it is the only speed that feels comfortable.

Edited as I hit the enter button too soon....

I think this really comes down to how speed is defined. If two runners currently can run the same speed 5K and one wants to run one faster next month then adding more miles probably won't matter. If the other builds the endurance to sustain that speed through a longer distance like a half marathon, the second runners 5K will be much faster than the first at any distance, but it will take more patience and time to get there.

holliph

agility training is the only thing that will really help...you can do this by getting an agility ladder, cones...parachute and train at home yourself or do what I did:
I did the insanity asylum 30 day and that is geared to help increase speed & agility for all type of sports.
I used to plod along at 11 minute mile, generally I can run a 7 minute miles in a 5k (tonight was an exception due to the heat/humidity & puking twice while running...tended to slow me down)

Once I finish my round of turbo fire & hip hop abs I will do asylum again along with p90x

gotta make sure I have a good time for my first half marathon in september

CarsonRuns

agility training is the only thing that will really help

So false.

I have done zero agility training and my speed as improved dramatically over the last few years at every race distance from 400m to the marathon.

Running helps you run faster.

timboom1

agility training is the only thing that will really help...you can do this by getting an agility ladder, cones...parachute and train at home yourself or do what I did:
I did the insanity asylum 30 day and that is geared to help increase speed & agility for all type of sports.
I used to plod along at 11 minute mile, generally I can run a 7 minute miles in a 5k (tonight was an exception due to the heat/humidity & puking twice while running...tended to slow me down)

Once I finish my round of turbo fire & hip hop abs I will do asylum again along with p90x

gotta make sure I have a good time for my first half marathon in september

Improving low or moderate general fitness will likely improve running speed up to a point, but that is only because of general fitness improvement and will not translate to increasingly faster speed or the ability to hold speed over longer distances.

p90x to Half Marathon??? I hope there is some actually running in that plan. 3.1 miles vs. 13.1 miles is a BIG difference. If there isn't much, good luck. If there is, then at least luck will be less of a factor although, I would have to wonder why you discount the impact running more miles is has on your ability to run faster and longer.

Cross training is not bad, but should be supplimentary to sport specific training.

Running helps you run faster.

Not running and then trying to run fast and/or long only helps you get injured.

ROBJ3411

My wife is a prime example. She ran 15-20 up to 25 miles a week for an extended period of time with no real goal and NO speed work and she maintained an average running pace that was very similar to the OPs. now she went from running 2-3, 11min mile to 4-5 11 min miles but her speed didn't really improve. May be a bit antidotal but...

I think the other posiibility here is that what used to be your wife's easy pace is the same but her effort got alot easier, meaning that she was probably faster if the percieved effort were the same. My wife does no speed work and no 30DS and no crossfit, just runs miles. She does it by feel so she has no idea until race day how fast she is, only that her runs feel either easy or hard based on perceived effort. In 1 year she went from an 8:35 pace in a 10K to a 8:24 pace in her first Half to an 8:06 pace in her second half.

I don't think there is a real question that if you can run 5 miles at pace X, you can run 3 at a pace less than X, if you want to.

On the other hand, taking some days off from running may also be helping your wife as she may have been running tired alot of the time.

Nope, She just ran feel, building slowly and running much of the time without timing her runs at all. She walked (with a stroller) and ran. We ran a few 5Ks and 10Ks and throughout her per mile times were very similar for like events. Now I preface this by saying my wife was relatively fit and as stated different stuff works for different people. Plus I've never said mileage WON'T increase speed, I said it is the least effective....She has begun running again after a long layoff; mixing in strength and speed with her mileage runs with good results.

Different strokes I guess. Still doesn't add up 5Ks and 10Ks are at the same pace. My inclination is that the 5K is slower than it could be if she has the ability to run 2x as far at the same pace (and I suspect both are slower than they could be), thus the thought that the pace was the same but it felt easier. It just doesn''t make since that they woiuld be the same pace based on physical ability alone, but rather is more of a result of training at the same pace all the time so that it is the only speed that feels comfortable.

Edited as I hit the enter button too soon....

I think this really comes down to how speed is defined. If two runners currently can run the same speed 5K and one wants to run one faster next month then adding more miles probably won't matter. If the other builds the endurance to sustain that speed through a longer distance like a half marathon, the second runners 5K will be much faster than the first at any distance, but it will take more patience and time to get there.

Sorry if I didn't clarify better , but her 5k to 5k time stayed pretty consistant as did her 10k to 10k.....

Using Your Example-

[/quote]
two runners currently can run the same speed 5K and one wants to run one faster next month then adding more miles probably won't matter. If the other builds the endurance to sustain that speed through a longer distance like a half marathon, the second runners 5K will be much faster than the first at any distance, but it will take more patience and time to get there.
[/quote]

2 guys- same time, same ability, etc Lets say they run a 10 minute mile for their 5k... they both want to run faster lets say a 5k and a 10k .. one guy runs exclusively speed and stength - ie Tempo runs, intervals and hills.

The other guy runs LSD and high mileage with NO speed, no tempo runs, no intervals. flat roads

I submit that the intevals guy will run the faster 5k now and forever till he reaches his max potential.

Over time guy 2 will increase stamina and decrease both his 5k and 10k time. He will probably run the better 10k time initially

As you increase the length of the event the endurance piece comes much more into play then speed. But I've yet to see a program for improvement that doesn't include some aspects of speed...

scottb81

The key is that max potential is a moving target based upon one's current aerobic capacity.

Doing exclusively speedwork will allow one to reach max potential within a few months and then improve no further.

Doing only aerobic running will continually raise the level of max potential but never actually reach it.

Doing a series of aerobic builds followed by speed over a period of years allows one to continually raise his max potential and actually reach that max potential at each step.

The other key is that the amount of training necessary to approach this max potential is far above what most people are willing to contemplate.

cavewoman15

i'm the slowest. i'm trying HIIT to see if it works for my next race (a 4 miler on labor day weekend). we'll see!

katysmelly

I am going to run in a 10k in September. I am currently capable of finishing a 10k, and I think my time would be somewhere between 1:10 and 1:20. It seems to me that what I ought to do is to run 10k at least once a week, and then to run more than 10k once a week (at this point, we're talking about 11 or 12k, tops. It would be a good idea to try and increase that a tiny bit every other week or so, maybe to the point of being able to run 15k by the time I run in the race.) Then, I think I should do a shorter run where I try to keep my pace well up... to run 5k as quickly as I comfortably can. The fourth run of the week... that would maybe be another shorter workout where I try to run some intervals.

Part of this is down to how much time I have available to run, of course.

scottb81

I am going to run in a 10k in September. I am currently capable of finishing a 10k, and I think my time would be somewhere between 1:10 and 1:20. It seems to me that what I ought to do is to run 10k at least once a week, and then to run more than 10k once a week (at this point, we're talking about 11 or 12k, tops. It would be a good idea to try and increase that a tiny bit every other week or so, maybe to the point of being able to run 15k by the time I run in the race.) Then, I think I should do a shorter run where I try to keep my pace well up... to run 5k as quickly as I comfortably can. The fourth run of the week... that would maybe be another shorter workout where I try to run some intervals.

Part of this is down to how much time I have available to run, of course.

That is a pretty solid plan. The weekly 5K as quick as you can is a Tempo run and greatly builds aerobic capacity and stamina. It is stressful to the body though which is why once or twice a week is enough. The pace should be around the fastest you can run before the legs begin burning with lactic acid. It should also be a pace you can hold steadily for the distance. The intervals will help also and for a 10K, 800 to 1000 meter intervals would be best I think. If you don't do the interval workout an easy run for 45 min or more will also be very beneficial.

If you are interested, you can calculate target training paces at this website. http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/calculator

timboom1

As you increase the length of the event the endurance piece comes much more into play then speed. But I've yet to see a program for improvement that doesn't include some aspects of speed...

Doing a series of aerobic builds followed by speed over a period of years allows one to continually raise his max potential and actually reach that max potential at each step.

Absolutly agree, except for beginner plans, which rarely include much speed work since most beginners do not have the aerobic capacity to run more than a few minutes at any speed. Although, I can't think of any training plan that doesn't have a majority of aerobic building components with a minority of speed work.

Tempo runs are not really speedwork, but about building endurance at lactate threshold, but still within the aerobic training zone.

Next 5K, find some of the sub 16 minutes finishers and ask them what % of their training is building aerobic capacity vs. speed.

ROBJ3411

As you increase the length of the event the endurance piece comes much more into play then speed. But I've yet to see a program for improvement that doesn't include some aspects of speed...

Doing a series of aerobic builds followed by speed over a period of years allows one to continually raise his max potential and actually reach that max potential at each step.

Absolutly agree, except for beginner plans, which rarely include much speed work since most beginners do not have the aerobic capacity to run more than a few minutes at any speed. Although, I can't think of any training plan that doesn't have a majority of aerobic building components with a minority of speed work.

Tempo runs are not really speedwork, but about building endurance at lactate threshold, but still within the aerobic training zone.

Next 5K, find some of the sub 16 minutes finishers and ask them what % of their training is building aerobic capacity vs. speed.

Yeah I think I said in an earlier post that in alot of the beginner programs that speed work is either omitted completely or delayed. I understand classifying Tempo differently. I tend to categorize Tempo more with speed work. It is an over simplification and because you are running faster and with the easy/hard programs it is a hard day along with the speed, hills work as opposed to LSD which is below goal pace.

I know that you can't do a heavy volume of speed work. But the research supports that a little goes along way...