Have any of you tried the Paleo Diet? Success???

ipag

Thank you, I usually do well reading books others recommend. At the moment I am reading one (COMPLEXITY M. Mitchell Waldorp.) I just looked through the indices of a couple of anthro books in my library, and found nothing about the Hadza, although I remember hearing that name. How far does their diet go back?

You might be interested in this Science article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20019285

There is evidence this ground seed diet goes back 100,000 years.

Truthfully, we don't know because they don't use writing and all their history is oral, however in the book there is archaeological evidence that they have lived in that part of Africa for 50,000 years. They still use clicks and grunts in their language and it is unlike any others. Genetically they have no relatives in the world either. Up until their "discovery" a couple hundred years ago they've been living in isolation for thousands of years.

I'll have to take a look at that study, thank you for sharing!

Akimajuktuq

I did make the mistake of commenting on that post and others titled "Paleo or Vegan" or something similar.

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The title of the string was, "Considering being a vegan?" Nothing ambiguous about it, and you invited yourself right in, which by the way was fine with me, since I am not afraid of people disagreeing with me. And there were many other Paleos who invited themselves there. Again no problem. Vegans are not sensitive to criticism like Paleos. That is because our philosophy is not based on myths and phony anthropology.
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I am avoiding them now. I have no problems with difference of opinion, but I cannot stand opinions touted as FACT and disrespecting others.

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Gee. We cite journals like Nature and Science and we have OPINIONS. You give anecdotal stories about your family and you have FACT. Like I said, Paleos have an interesting view of fact and fiction.
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There is nothing in my post that is disrespectful or attacking vegans. I am merely presenting a view that may have never been considered. I challenge myself, and my beliefs, all the time as well.

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When we give study after study showing a definitive relationship between eating meat and chronic diseases, when we quote top academic journals supporting our position, and when we quote and refer to REAL anthropological studies as opposed to anthropological pop opinion, it is disrespectful to say we are giving opinion and you are giving fact. Indeed it is just the opposite.
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I am not against vegans, but no, I do not understand the "ethical" choice for it and I've commented why before.

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Are you actually saying that ethical choices are hard for you to understand?
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The comments from Vegasaurus will no longer get reasonable, logical comments from me, but I should be able to share my opinions on posts that are applicable to me. Such as this one.

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My comments have NEVER gotten reasonable comments from you. You give only storys about your family and friends. Obviously you do not understand that anecdotal information has no place in science.
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[/quote]

You are nothing but an online bully. Your "facts" are the only allowable opinions. You ridicule others (ie "ethical choices are hard for you to understand"). This post asked for opinions from people who have tried the Paleo Diet. You are insulting and rude and have apparently never tried this way of eating. Get lost and stick to what you know-VEGAN posts. (like deserves like)

I like how you deleted some of my words in what was quoted; very classy. NOT.

Edit: this forum is about PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, few of us are scientists, even if some of us pretend to be. I will share what I want, especially on posts that apply to ME. You have gone beyond what is a discussion. All your opinions are "scientific" and anyone who disagrees is "anecdotal". Part of "science" is observation, or did you miss that part? I could post links to studies after studies too, but what is the point when dealing with people like you; I've seen you belittle every logical argument put your way by many people, and not with science. You have one way, your cup is full and it's pointless to argue with you.

(Guess what? I've actually been vegan, so yes, I can comment on how it was for me, even though I am choosing not to do so since mid August, and won't again because of nasty "people" like you.)

VegesaurusRex

I don't post my food intake, because I am not dieting. Although I could probably stand to lose a few pounds. I am actually trying to increase my muscle mass, hence my weight.

Interesting. Me too. So far this year, have added 15 mostly lean pounds. (I say "mostly lean" because while my waistline and the calipers haven't changed in any noticeable way, I sincerely doubt that all 15 pounds are muscle.)

But I don't understand why you wouldn't share your food log for that reason. I eat (mostly) the same foods now that I did when I was dropping the squishier look last year, just more of them. Even if I were eating drastically different foods, I see no reason to hide my food log from others.

I am not hiding it. I just don't do it. What is the point of logging food just for the sake of logging food? I can understand if you are counting calories, or worried about fiber or something, but I'm not, and I don't. I think it would be a waste of time.

VegesaurusRex

Thank you, I usually do well reading books others recommend. At the moment I am reading one (COMPLEXITY M. Mitchell Waldorp.) I just looked through the indices of a couple of anthro books in my library, and found nothing about the Hadza, although I remember hearing that name. How far does their diet go back?

You might be interested in this Science article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20019285

There is evidence this ground seed diet goes back 100,000 years.

Truthfully, we don't know because they don't use writing and all their history is oral, however in the book there is archaeological evidence that they have lived in that part of Africa for 50,000 years. They still use clicks and grunts in their language and it is unlike any others. Genetically they have no relatives in the world either. Up until their "discovery" a couple hundred years ago they've been living in isolation for thousands of years.

I'll have to take a look at that study, thank you for sharing!

Thank you. And I'll put that book on my to-do list.

VegesaurusRex

I did make the mistake of commenting on that post and others titled "Paleo or Vegan" or something similar.

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The title of the string was, "Considering being a vegan?" Nothing ambiguous about it, and you invited yourself right in, which by the way was fine with me, since I am not afraid of people disagreeing with me. And there were many other Paleos who invited themselves there. Again no problem. Vegans are not sensitive to criticism like Paleos. That is because our philosophy is not based on myths and phony anthropology.
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I am avoiding them now. I have no problems with difference of opinion, but I cannot stand opinions touted as FACT and disrespecting others.

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Gee. We cite journals like Nature and Science and we have OPINIONS. You give anecdotal stories about your family and you have FACT. Like I said, Paleos have an interesting view of fact and fiction.
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There is nothing in my post that is disrespectful or attacking vegans. I am merely presenting a view that may have never been considered. I challenge myself, and my beliefs, all the time as well.

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When we give study after study showing a definitive relationship between eating meat and chronic diseases, when we quote top academic journals supporting our position, and when we quote and refer to REAL anthropological studies as opposed to anthropological pop opinion, it is disrespectful to say we are giving opinion and you are giving fact. Indeed it is just the opposite.
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I am not against vegans, but no, I do not understand the "ethical" choice for it and I've commented why before.

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Are you actually saying that ethical choices are hard for you to understand?
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The comments from Vegasaurus will no longer get reasonable, logical comments from me, but I should be able to share my opinions on posts that are applicable to me. Such as this one.

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My comments have NEVER gotten reasonable comments from you. You give only storys about your family and friends. Obviously you do not understand that anecdotal information has no place in science.
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You are nothing but an online bully. Your "facts" are the only allowable opinions. You ridicule others (ie "ethical choices are hard for you to understand"). This post asked for opinions from people who have tried the Paleo Diet. You are insulting and rude and have apparently never tried this way of eating. Get lost and stick to what you know-VEGAN posts. (like deserves like)

I like how you deleted some of my words in what was quoted; very classy. NOT.

Edit: this forum is about PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, few of us are scientists, even if some of us pretend to be. I will share what I want, especially on posts that apply to ME. You have gone beyond what is a discussion. All your opinions are "scientific" and anyone who disagrees is "anecdotal". Part of "science" is observation, or did you miss that part? I could post links to studies after studies too, but what is the point when dealing with people like you; I've seen you belittle every logical argument put your way by many people, and not with science. You have one way, your cup is full and it's pointless to argue with you.

(Guess what? I've actually been vegan, so yes, I can comment on how it was for me, even though I am choosing not to do so since mid August, and won't again because of nasty "people" like you.)
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My, my, aren't we in foul mood!

You can post whatever you like, but if people aren't interested in talking about it, it dies.

And I maintain that what I post is on topic. I talk about the Paleo Diet. Extensively. I gave for example statistics showing that less than one third of people who tried it thought it helped them, while almost all of those who tried vegetarian and vegan diets thought they were helped. I talk about the Paleo philosophy, and what is the Paleo diet. I talk about eating 100 g of fiber per day, and even post remarks from Paleo websites. I also post opinions from other diet experts like Dr MacDougal who gives his opinion on Paleo. And yes, I post studies on the relationship between eating meat and chronic diseases.

You seem to be the only person who thinks this is off topic or who seems offended. And very clearly you are trying to control the conversation. Well, say what you want. I am not trying to stop you. Please don't try and stop me from disagreeing with you.

And lastly, I really do not understand the hostility to scientific studies that I see from a lot of people, especially you. You don't need to be a scientist to understand the results of a study. To make it easy, I frequently post newspaper coverage of the study so you don't have to wade through the mumbo jumbo of scientific lingo. Of course the newspaper coverage almost always gives a link to the actual study, or if it doesn't, Googling the study from the article is never much of a challenge,

My final suggestion is that if you want to restrict who can post and what opinions they can have, start a private forum where you, personally, can censor posts and ban evil posters like me from even being there. MFP gives you that option, you know.

Marll

I love when you come to these types of threads, never really take what others are saying into consideration and fully discount anything but vegetariansim or veganism as being a fad or not nutritionally sound. I've seen your name pop up in many of these types of discussions and it's always the same.

Never mind that you cannot at all prove the statement "I gave for example statistics showing that less than one third of people who tried it thought it helped them, while almost all of those who tried vegetarian and vegan diets thought they were helped" and anything that anyone else says that is a counter to that must be wrong. Personal observations mean nothing to you unless they are your own.

I'll stick to observation to show improvement. I'll keep in mind the fact that my sister was a vegetarian and then vegan for the better part of 15 years and just got FAT, sick and depressed, her boyfriend who's been vegan almost his entire life has tons of health issues stemming back to poor development of his body. Only now after going Paleo has my sister been able to get her weight, health and mind back into shape. Never mind the scores of friends and coworkers that are doing it now and feel great....doesn't mean a whole lot because everyone must be wrong.

VegesaurusRex

I love when you come to these types of threads, never really take what others are saying into consideration and fully discount anything but vegetariansim or veganism as being a fad or not nutritionally sound. I've seen your name pop up in many of these types of discussions and it's always the same.

Never mind that you cannot at all prove the statement "I gave for example statistics showing that less than one third of people who tried it thought it helped them, while almost all of those who tried vegetarian and vegan diets thought they were helped" and anything that anyone else says that is a counter to that must be wrong. Personal observations mean nothing to you unless they are your own.

I'll stick to observation to show improvement. I'll keep in mind the fact that my sister was a vegetarian and then vegan for the better part of 15 years and just got FAT, sick and depressed, her boyfriend who's been vegan almost his entire life has tons of health issues stemming back to poor development of his body. Only now after going Paleo has my sister been able to get her weight, health and mind back into shape. Never mind the scores of friends and coworkers that are doing it now and feel great....doesn't mean a whole lot because everyone must be wrong.

I feel very happy for your family, but they are your family. I and people who are of a scientific bent prefer studies to anecdotal information. However, I have never stopped you or anyone else from saying what you want on this or any other board. Sorry, but go ahead and talk about your family if you want to. If others are interested, they can join in. If you make some kind of statement about "What is true for my family is true for everyone," then I will jump in and disagree. Studies show what they show, and anecdotal information shows what it shows.

Marll

I love when you come to these types of threads, never really take what others are saying into consideration and fully discount anything but vegetariansim or veganism as being a fad or not nutritionally sound. I've seen your name pop up in many of these types of discussions and it's always the same.

Never mind that you cannot at all prove the statement "I gave for example statistics showing that less than one third of people who tried it thought it helped them, while almost all of those who tried vegetarian and vegan diets thought they were helped" and anything that anyone else says that is a counter to that must be wrong. Personal observations mean nothing to you unless they are your own.

I'll stick to observation to show improvement. I'll keep in mind the fact that my sister was a vegetarian and then vegan for the better part of 15 years and just got FAT, sick and depressed, her boyfriend who's been vegan almost his entire life has tons of health issues stemming back to poor development of his body. Only now after going Paleo has my sister been able to get her weight, health and mind back into shape. Never mind the scores of friends and coworkers that are doing it now and feel great....doesn't mean a whole lot because everyone must be wrong.

I feel very happy for your family, but they are your family. I and people who are of a scientific bent prefer studies to anecdotal information. However, I have never stopped you or anyone else from saying what you want on this or any other board. Sorry, but go ahead and talk about your family if you want to. If others are interested, they can join in. If you make some kind of statement about "What is true for my family is true for everyone," then I will jump in and disagree. Studies show what they show, and anecdotal information shows what it shows.

Yet, any study can be manipulated and bent in any way that researcher wants. That has become evident in recent years with many scandals in the scientific community in which "scientists" have been caught or admit to either fabricating or discarding data that did not agree with a conclusion that they'd already decided on well before starting their "research".

You also have to take into consideration the outside influence that appears to be driving the "scientific" community more and more. Research funded by corporations with vested interest in a specific outcome, governments that want a specific outcome. There are many political influences as well that skew the data and the resutls such that I am of the opinion that there is in fact very little or no real science being performed anymore.

For anyone calling themselves a scientist as well, it's irresponsible to make conclusions that are presented as irrefutable fact. The goal of science should always to be to question and analyze, even one's own conculsions.

VegesaurusRex

Yet, any study can be manipulated and bent in any way that researcher wants. That has become evident in recent years with many scandals in the scientific community in which "scientists" have been caught or admit to either fabricating or discarding data that did not agree with a conclusion that they'd already decided on well before starting their "research".

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The correlation between meat and chronic diseases was first shown in the Framingham Study, a study done in the 1940s. Virtually every study done since then has come to the same conclusion. Every responsible health organization in the world recommends drastically cutting meat. If the ones who have done this are pseudo scientists, they have been around doing their dirty deed since the 1940's and have fooled just about every scientist on the planet.

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You also have to take into consideration the outside influence that appears to be driving the "scientific" community more and more. Research funded by corporations with vested interest in a specific outcome, governments that want a specific outcome. There are many political influences as well that skew the data and the resutls such that I am of the opinion that there is in fact very little or no real science being performed anymore.

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Yup. And that is exactly why I don't consider any study funded by any meat or dairy organization. (Bytheway, neither PETA, nor any other vegetarian organization I know of has ever funded a study. They don't have to.
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For anyone calling themselves a scientist as well, it's irresponsible to make conclusions that are presented as irrefutable fact. The goal of science should always to be to question and analyze, even one's own conculsions.

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Whoa! I never said I was a scientist. It is true that 95% of the people I work with are scientists but I am not. I do have a very strong scientific background, however, which is why I can work with them so easily.

And kindly show me where I ever said that any study was "irrefutable fact." Studies result in facts, e.g., "People who eat meat regularly are 20% more likely to die of a heart attack than non meat eaters according to such and such a study." But these are hardly irrefutable.

Marll

Yet, any study can be manipulated and bent in any way that researcher wants. That has become evident in recent years with many scandals in the scientific community in which "scientists" have been caught or admit to either fabricating or discarding data that did not agree with a conclusion that they'd already decided on well before starting their "research".

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The correlation between meat and chronic diseases was first shown in the Framingham Study, a study done in the 1940s. Virtually every study done since then has come to the same conclusion. Every responsible health organization in the world recommends drastically cutting meat. If the ones who have done this are pseudo scientists, they have been around doing their dirty deed since the 1940's and have fooled just about every scientist on the planet.

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You also have to take into consideration the outside influence that appears to be driving the "scientific" community more and more. Research funded by corporations with vested interest in a specific outcome, governments that want a specific outcome. There are many political influences as well that skew the data and the resutls such that I am of the opinion that there is in fact very little or no real science being performed anymore.

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Yup. And that is exactly why I don't consider any study funded by any meat or dairy organization. (Bytheway, neither PETA, nor any other vegetarian organization I know of has ever funded a study. They don't have to.
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For anyone calling themselves a scientist as well, it's irresponsible to make conclusions that are presented as irrefutable fact. The goal of science should always to be to question and analyze, even one's own conculsions.

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Whoa! I never said I was a scientist. It is true that 95% of the people I work with are scientists but I am not. I do have a very strong scientific background, however, which is why I can work with them so easily.

And kindly show me where I ever said that any study was "irrefutable fact." Studies result in facts, e.g., "People who eat meat regularly are 20% more likely to die of a heart attack than non meat eaters according to such and such a study." But these are hardly irrefutable.

I never specifically pointed you out as a scientist. What I'm saying is that these days you can't really trust scientists to be delivering the actual data that they've gathered, but rather a stilted, skewed view that is made to fit into specific outcome that has already been pre-defined. Most of the bad science against meat in the diet can be traced back to the Lipid Hypothesis and Ancel Keys, who was a grade A *kitten* and a fraud.

I don't need some study to show me that meat is or is not good, I know that I feel better and perform better when I eat meat. I know also that I fell much better when I eat a wide array of vegtables that are free from processing and are fresh. I don't care for any views from large organizations like PETA or the like, as they are also corrupt and have become politically motivated now.

In the end isn't all science rooted in observation and experimentation? To just blindly say that observation to the contrary of popular belief is not valid is a fundamental and fatal flaw in your argument in my opinion.

spngebobmyhero

bump for later amusement

Glasgow_Vegan

You have to do any diet long term or else you put the weight back on when you return to your normal eating.

Glasgow_Vegan

I am going this direction too. Well, mostly cutting out grains and all that. Still not going in all the way but I am cutting out processed stuff for the most part. Still need a little dairy but I'm only on day 2 so I can't comment on success yet. Haha. Good luck! I hear good things about it.

Why cut out all grains though? Unless you have celiac disease or a gluten allergy. Whole grains have been proven to increase heart health and they're a great source of fiber, b vitamins and protein.

RainHoward

If it has a title, if it consists of anything starting with the word "the" and ending in "diet" I stay away. I suppose there is some merit to all of them in some way but to follow one strictly, no.

Marll

I am going this direction too. Well, mostly cutting out grains and all that. Still not going in all the way but I am cutting out processed stuff for the most part. Still need a little dairy but I'm only on day 2 so I can't comment on success yet. Haha. Good luck! I hear good things about it.

Why cut out all grains though? Unless you have celiac disease or a gluten allergy. Whole grains have been proven to increase heart health and they're a great source of fiber, b vitamins and protein.

"Proven"? This is not conclusive and there is plenty of evidence for the opposite that any nutrients gained through grains is negated by the detrimental effects on gut flora.

That being said there are also plenty of people that are healthy for the most part but show improved cholesterol, blood sugar levels, blood pressure and are able to loose weight just by cutting grains. I've observed it first hand in myself, friends, family, etc, but as we all know from this thread, apparently observations contrary to the standard ways of thinking are worthless :huh:

Halleeon

I guess if you had to title the way I eat it's Primal...with moderate exceptions. I also eat between my BMR and TDEE and adjust this number for every 5 pounds I lose. I'm losing weight, inches, and tons of NSV's.

ipag

I am going this direction too. Well, mostly cutting out grains and all that. Still not going in all the way but I am cutting out processed stuff for the most part. Still need a little dairy but I'm only on day 2 so I can't comment on success yet. Haha. Good luck! I hear good things about it.

Why cut out all grains though? Unless you have celiac disease or a gluten allergy. Whole grains have been proven to increase heart health and they're a great source of fiber, b vitamins and protein.

On a calorie by-calorie-basis, green vegetables contain substantially more fiber than whole grains, plus they offer even more nutrients in abundance than any whole grain could.

Marll

I am going this direction too. Well, mostly cutting out grains and all that. Still not going in all the way but I am cutting out processed stuff for the most part. Still need a little dairy but I'm only on day 2 so I can't comment on success yet. Haha. Good luck! I hear good things about it.

Why cut out all grains though? Unless you have celiac disease or a gluten allergy. Whole grains have been proven to increase heart health and they're a great source of fiber, b vitamins and protein.

On a calorie by-calorie-basis, green vegetables contain substantially more fiber than whole grains, plus they offer even more nutrients in abundance than any whole grain could.

This^^

Why bother eating something that is supposedly good for you when you could eat something else that's superior and avoid any of the potential issues that may come with consumption of grains?

VegesaurusRex

I never specifically pointed you out as a scientist. What I'm saying is that these days you can't really trust scientists to be delivering the actual data that they've gathered, but rather a stilted, skewed view that is made to fit into specific outcome that has already been pre-defined. Most of the bad science against meat in the diet can be traced back to the Lipid Hypothesis and Ancel Keys, who was a grade A *kitten* and a fraud.

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A scientist's reputation depends upon what they do. Grant money and tenure depend upon reputation. Any scientist who skews a study to fit into his own preconceived notions of what the results should look like sure won't last long. Few scientists intentionally screw up data to show what they "want" the data to show. The vast majority of studies show what actually happened not what someone thinks ought to have happened. As I pointed out, the first major study that I know of on diet was the Framingham study done in the 1940's. The results, at the time were shocking, because no one knew or believed that eating meat was dangerous and correlated with deadly diseases like cancer and heart disease. There have probably been thousands of studies since then and well over 90% of them confirm the results of the Framingham Study. This is not an accident. This is not coincidence. This is a meaningful correlation, and anyone who disregards massive data like this is frankly a fool.
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I don't need some study to show me that meat is or is not good, I know that I feel better and perform better when I eat meat.

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Do you need a study to show you that smoking, alcohol and drugs are not good? All of them make you feel good. If feeling good were the only criterion for what you do, you would probably be dead now.
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I know also that I fell much better when I eat a wide array of vegtables that are free from processing and are fresh. I don't care for any views from large organizations like PETA or the like, as they are also corrupt and have become politically motivated now.

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Be that as it may, PETA doesn't do any studies. As I pointed out, they don't have to. They have 70 years of independent studies to prove they are essentially right.
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In the end isn't all science rooted in observation and experimentation? To just blindly say that observation to the contrary of popular belief is not valid is a fundamental and fatal flaw in your argument in my opinion

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The problem is that what you call "popular belief" is actually the results of observation and experimentation. What you call "observation and experimentation," is actually popular belief. Observation and experimentation are exactly what are done in the studies that I quote. Anecdotal stories about your friends and family are NOT observation and experimentation.
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VegesaurusRex

I am going this direction too. Well, mostly cutting out grains and all that. Still not going in all the way but I am cutting out processed stuff for the most part. Still need a little dairy but I'm only on day 2 so I can't comment on success yet. Haha. Good luck! I hear good things about it.

Why cut out all grains though? Unless you have celiac disease or a gluten allergy. Whole grains have been proven to increase heart health and they're a great source of fiber, b vitamins and protein.

"Proven"? This is not conclusive and there is plenty of evidence for the opposite that any nutrients gained through grains is negated by the detrimental effects on gut flora.

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Here we go. I am trying to make this board less sloppy. If you think grains have a negative effect, cite a study. Your opinion (and my opinion) alone is worth nothing. If you cannot cite a reputable study, then don't make claims. You may believe the moon is made of cheese, but until you can cites some experiments that prove that, it must be treated as nonsense.
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That being said there are also plenty of people that are healthy for the most part but show improved cholesterol, blood sugar levels, blood pressure and are able to loose weight just by cutting grains. I've observed it first hand in myself, friends, family, etc, but as we all know from this thread, apparently observations contrary to the standard ways of thinking are worthless :huh:

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Yup. You are proving that every time you post. I don't know how you can know about "plenty of people" improving their cholesterol by cutting grains, unless someone has done a study on the subject. Did you have a friend who had a boyfriend who once told you this? How did you observe their cholesterol improving when they gave up grains? Making up crap and passing it off as fact doesn't cut it. If you want to convince someone, cite a study.
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