Why do people get so provoked by vegans?
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I didn't read all of this thread either, but I think I am one of the obnoxious vegans that people are talking about here. The reality is however, that I never tell anyone what to eat, but rather I keep throwing scientific studies in their faces
The "tone" of your comments does make you appear to be an "obnoxious vegan" (your words). If you come across as someone who believes he is intellectually superior than those who think differently than you, you'll have a hard time getting people to listen. Sometimes a softer approach works better. My friend, VoV, does a fine job of educating people without coming across as arrogant or obnoxious.
Well, well, I know you. I heard about your problem. Unbelievable!!!
I appreciate your advice, and it is, in fact the same advice VoV and others have given me. In the long run, you are probably right, but I have a different goal. (Message me if interested.)
Yes, you can attest that I am obnoxious, but as Popeye said, " Iam what Iam."0 -
Some people are here to get healthier overall, and not just lose weight.Wow, how to start an argument!!!!
Why don't people just do what they do and get along!!!
I think this is a topic that should never have been started as are we not all here to achieve one thing - Lose Weight
it shouldn't matter how we each do it surely.
For the people that prefer not to get heart disease, stroke, diabetes, etc, there is eating a proper well balanced diet that includes a lot of fresh raw fruits and vegetables.
For the people that simply want to look good temporarily, and don't care about dying of preventable disease, there are meat based diets.
It's not simply a difference of how to lose weight, it's about overall health and longevity.
Of course, studies show that high protein diets, like Atkins, decrease the chance of getting heart disease, stroke and diabetes. So, I guess meat is kind of important.
In the Horizon documentary (it's on youtube) called Eat, Fast and Live Longer the doctors stated that a low protein diet increases longevity and health. It's a very interesting programme because it deals with interval fasting and the 2:5 method that has been discussed quite a bit on these boards recently.
Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfna7nV7WaM
Anyway, the inclusion of 25g of soya protein a day has been shown to lower cholesterol, which is the opposite of red meat.
I really cannot listen to a UTube at the moment, but I will this afternoon. I agree that high VEGETABLE PROTEIN might be okay, but not high animal protein.0 -
well i believe verging on vegan is his wife. so i guess they balance each other out.I didn't read all of this thread either, but I think I am one of the obnoxious vegans that people are talking about here. The reality is however, that I never tell anyone what to eat, but rather I keep throwing scientific studies in their faces
The "tone" of your comments does make you appear to be an "obnoxious vegan" (your words). If you come across as someone who believes he is intellectually superior than those who think differently than you, you'll have a hard time getting people to listen. Sometimes a softer approach works better. My friend, VoV, does a fine job of educating people without coming across as arrogant or obnoxious.0 -
I didn't read all of this thread either, but I think I am one of the obnoxious vegans that people are talking about here. The reality is however, that I never tell anyone what to eat, but rather I keep throwing scientific studies in their faces, showing a definitive correlation between eating meat and chronic diseases. The reactions are usually pretty strong. The dumbest ones usually say something like "studies are all slanted and skewed by researchers who have an agenda," or "you haven't proven causation - correlation does not equal causation." They ignore the fact that studies have been done since the 1940, and virtually all of them show the same thing: eating meat is correlated with deadly chronic diseases. Every reputable medical association in the world recommends eating no meat or at worse less meat.
I recently got into an on-line argument with a VEGETARIAN who was very angry at my approach. He messaged me and said, "What the Hell are you doing. What do you care what those idiots eat? They will get cancer or heart disease and die. This is Darwinism. Survival of the fittest."
I had to say he had a good point. However, I do care for several reasons:
1. I don't want to pay increased health care costs because of them.
2. I was once a meat eater, so there is hope for everyone
3. The animal suffering caused by eating meat is horrible. We are an evil species.
4. I invariably get messages or friend requests from people saying my direct approach has help them.
The latter category is worth talking about. Anyone who has studied sociology knows what "magical thinking" is. It is also known as "cognitive dissonance." People compartmentalize their thought processes and hold conflicting views. For example, some people may say, "The scientific approach is good. It has given us civilization." Yet these same people will make up excuses for not believing thousands of studies that correlate meat eating with chronic diseases. Magical thinking somehow protects them. They think these studies are either bogus, or not properly done, or in the usual words of the most statistically challenged of them, "that causation is not proven." (When asked what study they know of does prove causation, they can't give me one.)
My approach which for some reason many, many people find offensive, is simply this: Look at the science. Are longitudinal studies perfect? No. Can scientists slant or skew results? Yes. However, I really do not think they do a lot (probably the exception is those studies funded by special interest groups, because there, the outcome of the study is tied to the funding.)
In any event, until someone tells me a better source of information than massive longitudinal studies, they will inform my opinion, for better or worse.
Hmm...
After reading this, I'm not sure why anyone would be provoked. LOL!0 -
If your total cholesterol is below 150 and LDL is below 70, you are essentially heart attack proof.
Cool...I eat POUNDS of meat per day and am below both of those.
I'm much smarter about where my carbohydrates come from than other carb restricted (if 30% and more actual calories than most on here is considered "restricted") individuals though. I typically eat around 200g/day with most coming from fruits and vegetables, particularly non-starchy vegetables and higher fiber fruits such as berries. When i eat steak, I don't take a bite that has visible fat, reguardless of the cut. My fat numbers that I log for steak, are GROSSLY overestimated.
Most of my daily fat and saturated fat comes from plant sources (coconut oil, olive oil, canola oil, sunflower oil, purified MCT's, and peanuts/other nuts).
Eating a lot of meat doesn't mean it has to be loaded with saturated fats...which is something I've not seen a study really address.0 -
This BBC article is about the amount of people in the UK who eat vegetarian/vegan 'meat' instead on animal meat for health reasons, despite not being vegetarian otherwise:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/0/19294585
Also, Quorn adverts in the UK never mention vegetarianism or animal rights. They don't even say that it isn't meat. Just that it's lower in fat:
http://youtu.be/_Ymabb7Uzeg
"The UK market for meat-free products such as tofu, sausages, burgers, and imitation chicken fillets was most recently put at £786.5m a year, up 7.7% from five years earlier. A further 10.3% increase is expected over the next five years, according to market research company Key Note.
But this boom in meat-free products is no longer being driven solely by vegetarians.
Just 6% (3.8m) of the UK population identified themselves as "mainly" vegetarian (eating fish but not meat) in 2011, and 3% (1.9m) as completely vegetarian.
So who is fuelling the rise?
Su Taylor from the Vegetarian Society says it's "people with differing motivations", which could be health, environment, animal welfare or just "trying something different".
They include "meat reducers" - people who may have bought in to campaigns such as "Meat Free Mondays" and are trying to reduce their carbon footprint."0 -
It all boils down to belief. If you believe in it and it works for you, awesome! But... beliefs are like Man Bits. It's great if you have one, but it's generally frowned upon if you go waving it around in public, and for heaven's sake, don't go cramming it down anyone's throat without their consent.0
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They started out with the health food (rather than animal rights etc.) with this advert a few years ago:
http://youtu.be/JvUR8t9tDcc 0 -
I only get provoked if they call me a murderer.0
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... but rather I keep throwing scientific studies in their faces, showing a definitive correlation between eating meat and chronic diseases. ...
There is no such thing as a definitive correlation study. 0 -
It all boils down to belief. If you believe in it and it works for you, awesome! But... beliefs are like Man Bits. It's great if you have one, but it's generally frowned upon if you go waving it around in public, and for heaven's sake, don't go cramming it down anyone's throat without their consent.
I doubt most of the vegans who've posted mention it much in real life. A lot of my friends eat meat and it's just something we agree to disagree on so don't mention. They know I'm vegan and ask about it, but we leave it at that. A few have cut down a lot on their meat and want to eat more vegan foods for health reasons now. Some say they intend to go vegetarian in a few years.
Anyway, I think people post about it here because they see the benefits in terms of weight loss. They aren't really shoving it down anyone's throat so much as they're saying it's an option to those who might not have heard of it. I mean it's a weight loss forum where people post about all sorts of diets. People can disagree and leave it at that.0 -
I AM bothered by Vegans that do it for idealistic reasons. I believe that eating animals is the way of the planet. It's what is meant to happen. Also plants are just as much alive as animals and have just as much right to live. By idealistic vegan thinking fruits are ok, they are meant to be eaten. But roots should be banned as that kills the plant!
I am an omnivore.
I wonder if you would think that if a race of superbeings came here from another planet and decided to eat us.
As for humans being herbivores here is a bit about the Editor of the the American Journal of Cardiology:
William C. Roberts MD has five decades of experience in the field of cardiology, written over 1300 scientific publications, a dozen cardiology textbooks, and has been editor in chief of the American Journal of Cardiology for a quarter of a century. He is arguably the most highly regarded cardiologist in the world today.
In his 2008 editorial "The Cause of Atherosclerosis", published in the peer reviewed journal Nutrition in Clinical Practice, Roberts states that there is a single, sole cause to heart disease: cholesterol. If your total cholesterol is below 150 and LDL is below 70, you are essentially heart attack proof. What is the cause of high cholesterol? Saturated fat and animal products:
Atherosclerosis is easily produced in nonhuman
herbivores (eg, rabbits, monkeys) by feeding them
a high cholesterol (eg, egg yolks) or high saturated
fat (eg, animal fat) diet… And atherosclerosis was not produced in a
minority of rats fed these diets, it was produced in
100% of the animals! Indeed, atherosclerosis is one
of the easiest diseases to produce experimentally,
but the experimental animal must be an herbivore.
It is not possible to produce atherosclerosis in a
carnivore…"
He elaborates in an earlier editorial:
It is virtually impossible, for example, to produce atherosclerosis in a dog even when 100 grams of cholesterol and 120 grams of butter fat are added to its meat ration. (This amount of cholesterol
is approximately 200 times the average amount that human beings in the USA
eat each day!). (The American Journal of Cardiology, 1990, vol. 66,896.)
He then utterly annihilates the human omnivore myth in a single sentence. here it is:
***Because humans get atherosclerosis, and atherosclerosis
is a disease only of herbivores, humans also must be
herbivores.***
At once the insanity of our times comes into razor sharp relief.
Some may debate whether cholesterol is the sole cause of heart disease. It does not matter, the fact remains that atherosclerosis occurs only in herbivores.
If humans were physiological omnivores, heart disease would not exist, let alone be America's #1 killer for over a hundred years.
It may not be the least bit hyperbolic to say that the existence of heart disease in humans is proof that we, as a species, are vegans.
In any case, a low fat vegan diet has been proven again and again to be the cure for heart disease. A mountain of clinical evidence supports this.
According to Roberts, those who are utterly immune to heart disease without the use of statin drugs are pure vegetarian fruit eaters. His own exact words. fruit eaters.
HUMANS ARE HERBIVORES
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-02/acs-veh020111.php0 -
It all boils down to belief. If you believe in it and it works for you, awesome! But... beliefs are like Man Bits. It's great if you have one, but it's generally frowned upon if you go waving it around in public, and for heaven's sake, don't go cramming it down anyone's throat without their consent.
I doubt most of the vegans who've posted mention it much in real life. A lot of my friends eat meat and it's just something we agree to disagree on so don't mention. They know I'm vegan and ask about it, but we leave it at that. A few have cut down a lot on their meat and want to eat more vegan foods for health reasons now. Some say they intend to go vegetarian in a few years.
Anyway, I think people post about it here because they see the benefits in terms of weight loss. They aren't really shoving it down anyone's throat so much as they're saying it's an option to those who might not have heard of it. I mean it's a weight loss forum where people post about all sorts of diets. People can disagree and leave it at that.
If only...0 -
I only get provoked if they call me a murderer.
I think they mean that you benefit from murder/slaughter, or play a role in it.0 -
I only get provoked if they call me a murderer.
I think they mean that you benefit from murder/slaughter, or play a role in it.
It's not murder.0 -
Another way of thinking about it:
Many people boycott Nestle products because they disagree with their policy of promoting infant formula over breast feeding in countries with poor sanitation. A lot of those people boycotting eat meat.
If someone does that, it doesn't mean they think they're better than you.0 -
I only get provoked if they call me a murderer.
I think they mean that you benefit from murder/slaughter, or play a role in it.
It's not murder.
That's your opinion.0 -
Hiring someone to commit murder is still murder. Also, I go fishing. So, yes, I have been called a murderer and a slaveholder on MFP for not being vegan.I only get provoked if they call me a murderer.
I think they mean that you benefit from murder/slaughter, or play a role in it.0 -
Hiring someone to commit murder is still murder. Also, I go fishing. So, yes, I have been called a murderer and a slaveholder on MFP for not being vegan.I only get provoked if they call me a murderer.
I think they mean that you benefit from murder/slaughter, or play a role in it.
But you already knew that you killed the fish and played your part in the death of animals, so why does it bother you?0 -
I only get provoked if they call me a murderer.
I think they mean that you benefit from murder/slaughter, or play a role in it.
It's not murder.
That's your opinion.
Right, just as you have yours.0 -
Another way of thinking about it:
Many people boycott Nestle products because they disagree with their policy of promoting infant formula over breast feeding in countries with poor sanitation. A lot of those people boycotting eat meat.
If someone does that, it doesn't mean they think they're better than you.
Except the people boycotting Nestle never called me a murderer.
Understand??0 -
Well, well, I know you. I heard about your problem. Unbelievable!!!
I appreciate your advice, and it is, in fact the same advice VoV and others have given me. In the long run, you are probably right, but I have a different goal. (Message me if interested.)
Yes, you can attest that I am obnoxious, but as Popeye said, " Iam what Iam." 0 -
I find the same thing myself, I'm a 37 year vegetarian and I never preach my diet, in fact I rarely mention it and I've often questioned it, but many people are quick to assume that I have coped an attitude when in fact they have.0
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Yup. That's why I gave him the wink at the end.well i believe verging on vegan is his wife. so i guess they balance each other out.0 -
Thank you for your post. I too have read most of those studies. I went meat, dairy and bread free Feb 2012 and do not regret it. My weightloss is 25lb right now. I'm now jogging for the first time in my life( always hated it ) and am up to 1.25 miles per day. I follow Dr. Fuhrmans Eat to live lifestyle. Thank you0
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I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.
I am not trying to be facetious, but I would like to hear how that contemplative, self-reflective alternate conclusion might sound like. I have an easy time seeing my own conclusion, but I have a difficult time seeing an opposite conclusion about meat-eating which factors in animal welfare.
This is the first time I've commented on one of these "food fight" threads, so let me know if I'm doing it wrong...
This is something I've thought about a lot. It hasn't led me to be a vegan. I like to know where my food comes from, so I tend to buy from local, humane farms. I think that how we treat animals is very important. Animals have always been a big part of human life. Those who believe in animal rights would like that to not be the case. Ideally, I would like to raise my own animals and eat them at the appropriate and natural times. I also like to wear wool and leather. Both can be humanely produced. Conventional cotton can be pretty bad for the environment. Hemp is hard to find. A lot of synthetic materials are made from fossil fuels.
Believing in animal welfare isn't actually incompatible with eating meat. Overpopulation of prey species can lead to starvation. That makes hunting humane. It's the belief in "animal rights" that is incompatible with eating meat. If we really believed in animal rights, we would have to get rid of all domesticated animals. We would literally have to eliminate them. Some of them (like cats) would likely thrive on their own, but at what damage to local ecosystems? Turning them loose wouldn't be totally ethical, so we have to kill them all right? Believing in "animal rights" is incompatible with believing in animal welfare. My belief in animal welfare leads me to want to see them cared for and protected and, yes, sometimes eaten.
I missed this posting yesterday, but I wanted to comment.
I agree that sourcing your food and textiles from local farms or distant ones which are known to be responsible is a very good thing to do. My cats are obligate carnivores who have no choice but to eat meat, so I share your sourcing concerns. Believe me, that it's not easy, and I rarely feel like my consumer decisions are a total win.
On the matter of textiles, I am frequently forced into compromises I hate making. I try buying vegan clothes made from sustainable, renewable materials whose production and harvesting don't trash the environment and the people who live and work in the communities where those materials come from. Lately, I've started to think that buying used clothing or clothes swapping is even better. I'm still a work in progress, for sure.
On the matter of keeping pets, or as many animal rights people would say 'sharing a home with companion animals', I know many vegans who are heavily involved in animal rescue. They definitely are trying very hard to improve animal welfare, and believe that the animals which have been bred to be domesticated and dependent upon humans do not deserve to be dropped off somewhere to fend for themselves.
In my version of the ideal world, there would be a lengthy moratorium on the breeding of dogs, cats and other species of animals people deem pet-worthy. During that time, I would hope that all the unwanted animals would find homes. After that, I would hope that breeding would not exceed demand, and that the majority of animals would be spayed or neutered. Of course, that's a fantasy, so there are real world issues to be worked on with millions of individual animals who need a helping hand.
So, in my opinion, 'animal rights' and 'animal welfare' can be compatible.0 -
Just read this article from NPR and thought it would be worth the read:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2012/08/30/160117028/do-vegetarians-and-vegans-think-they-are-better-than-everyone-else?utm_source=NPR&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=201208300 -
A vegan diet is deficient in B vitamins without supplementation. Also, you are missing the very real benefits of whey protein with such a restrictive diet. Furthermore, meat is very filling -- so it is easier to eat less with a high-protein diet (which is considerably more difficult on a vegan diet).
I disagree. I have not yet encountered a day I was low on protein. Not sure why anyone would need a high protein diet but it is possible on a vegan diet.
Vegan diet is deficient in B vitamins, missing benefits of whey protein, and generally less filling than a diet with a higher proportion of meat.
I get my b vitamins from fortified sources. I also do not see any benefits of whey to my diet and nor have I had an issue keeping myself full. Thanks for your concern though.0 -
Full disclosure: I didn't read your whole post, as it is rather long.
I don't feel provoked by vegans, however I do get highly annoyed by ANYONE who preaches to me about their way as being the only path. This goes for diet (vegan, paleo, no carb, low carb) or religion and everything in between. People getting all preachy is just plain obnoxious and I have no patience for them online or in real life.
I don't have a label for how I eat. I eat some meat. I eat lots of vegetables and fruit. I try to be a "vegetarian until dinnertime," limiting meat consumption, if at all, to one meal a day. I try to avoid foods made by industrial giants, including freaky fake "meats" and anything made by companies such as ConAgra, Morningstar Farms (aka Kellogs), etc. I am good with what I eat and am happy for anyone else who finds a diet that fits their lifestyle.
^^This. I am not annoyed by people who choose to be vegan or vegetarian. It's a personal choice, and if you're happy with it, that's great. The problem I have is the vegans I sometimes run across (and I don't think you're one of them) who insist their way of eating is the only way. We have a wide variety of choices for foods, and I think each person has to find what works for them. I'm not going to push you to eat meat because you've chosen a way that works for you, and it's none of my business anyway. Vegans should extend the same courtesy (and many do, it's just those occasional radicals who push and push and actually insult you if you don't see it their way). Your post makes it clear that you view being vegan as your personal choice and that if others choose differently, it's their business. I don't have a problem with that kind of vegan!
My question for vegans is how you handle eating out and such. There aren't many vegan choices for restaurants out there, and I can't imagine how I'd pull it off. I eat dinner at church on Wednesday nights because of my schedule, and I have no control over the menu, so eating vegan there would be impossible. I do admire the discipline of vegans...I'm not sure I could do it!0 -
I didn't really read most of the answers to the original question nor the conversations resulting from that but I wanted to answer the question about why I PERSONALLY am sometimes provoked by vegans. I was raised on a ranch and we raised various kinds of livestock and named most of them. We still sold them and took them to the butcher for our freezers. Sometimes you had an animal that you didn't want to sell because it had basically become your pet as a 4-H project. You still did it and then you did it again the next year. It was hard but you eventually got over it, even if you remembered the animal with fondness. (Like my first state fair lamb, his name was Fella and he was an absolute sweetheart.) So, when vegans tell me that I don't care about animals simply because I eat meat and use animal byproducts it kind of pisses me off. I know how the world works and I realize that even if humans didn't exist to eat meat those animals would STILL be eaten by other predators or they would die of starvation from overpopulation. Of course, I really don't see anything wrong with the decision to be a vegan, I just wish that some of them wouldn't tell me that the way I live is wrong.0
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