Why do people get so provoked by vegans?
Replies
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I don't think people are provoked by veganism. I think people are provoked by others who say "my diet is the only way."
Many people seem provoked by anyone that doesn't live like them. On MFP that can mean eating or exercising. I've seen attacks on people for eating vegan or vegetarian, Paleo, Atkins or other low carb, for eating carbs, for not lifting heavy, for doing cardio, yadda, yadda, yadda.
I don't really understand why anyone gets so passionate about how a stranger eats or exercises. I can actually understand those who are vegan for ethical reasons best since they actually have some perceived injustice to right. Though I fail to understand when they seem think berating someone for not thinking like them will make them change.0 -
I don't think people are provoked by veganism. I think people are provoked by others who say "my diet is the only way."
Many people seem provoked by anyone that doesn't live like them. On MFP that can mean eating or exercising. I've seen attacks on people for eating vegan or vegetarian, Paleo, Atkins or other low carb, for eating carbs, for not lifting heavy, for doing cardio, yadda, yadda, yadda.
I don't really understand why anyone gets so passionate about how a stranger eats or exercises. I can actually understand those who are vegan for ethical reasons best since they actually have some perceived injustice to right. Though I fail to understand when they seem think berating someone for not thinking like them will make them change.
I completely agree with you.0 -
"In answering my question in the negative, Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau both point to their own meat-eating past. But they do strongly exhort others, through "should"-type speech, to choose certain diets over others: diets that don't involve doing violent harm to animals. I understand this. Both work towards a more compassionate world for animals; their goals are just not compatible with an all-embracing "live and let live" approach, as if one set of food choices were just as okay as another.
It's clear to me that Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau believe not that they are better people than meat-eaters, but instead that their dietary practices are better for animals, and for our world as a whole, than the habits of meat-eaters. Why do many people so readily confuse these two things?"
This!0 -
doesn't contain egg). I'm not picky because I don't want to make things more difficult for other people. I'm lucky that in the UK weMy question for vegans is how you handle eating out and such. There aren't many vegan choices for restaurants out there, and I can't imagine how I'd pull it off. I eat dinner at church on Wednesday nights because of my schedule, and I have no control over the menu, so eating vegan there would be impossible. I do admire the discipline of vegans...I'm not sure I could do it!
If I eat at a non-vegan restaurant I just have salad and vegetable dishes, sometimes with fries. Or bruschetta or pasta (if the latter have lots of restaurants that only sell vegan food. Loads that have vegetarian and vegan options too. Everyone seems to at least know a vegan here.
This is the menu for one of the vegan restaurants. It doesn't even advertise itself as being vegan and gets a lot of meat eating customers:
http://www.cca-glasgow.com/assets/uploads/doc/saramago_menu.pdf0 -
"In answering my question in the negative, Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau both point to their own meat-eating past. But they do strongly exhort others, through "should"-type speech, to choose certain diets over others: diets that don't involve doing violent harm to animals. I understand this. Both work towards a more compassionate world for animals; their goals are just not compatible with an all-embracing "live and let live" approach, as if one set of food choices were just as okay as another.
It's clear to me that Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau believe not that they are better people than meat-eaters, but instead that their dietary practices are better for animals, and for our world as a whole, than the habits of meat-eaters. Why do many people so readily confuse these two things?"
This!
There is no confusion. When you say, "what I do is better for our world as a whole", you are saying "I'm better than you."0 -
"In answering my question in the negative, Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau both point to their own meat-eating past. But they do strongly exhort others, through "should"-type speech, to choose certain diets over others: diets that don't involve doing violent harm to animals. I understand this. Both work towards a more compassionate world for animals; their goals are just not compatible with an all-embracing "live and let live" approach, as if one set of food choices were just as okay as another.
It's clear to me that Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau believe not that they are better people than meat-eaters, but instead that their dietary practices are better for animals, and for our world as a whole, than the habits of meat-eaters. Why do many people so readily confuse these two things?"
This!
There is no confusion. When you say, "what I do is better for our world as a whole", you are saying "I'm better than you."
That makes no sense.0 -
I am curious as to how many people posting here actually have met a vegan they didn't like and aren't just hating a stereotype when they've never met a vegan or only met. Like two or three.0
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I am curious as to how many people posting here actually have met a vegan they didn't like and aren't just hating a stereotype when they've never met a vegan or only met. Like two or three.
and I'm curious to how this thread did any good to NOT perpetuate the stereotype omnivores have for vegans and vice versa.
Neither side can make judgemental statements and not think those statements will be viewed as judgements by the other side.0 -
"In answering my question in the negative, Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau both point to their own meat-eating past. But they do strongly exhort others, through "should"-type speech, to choose certain diets over others: diets that don't involve doing violent harm to animals. I understand this. Both work towards a more compassionate world for animals; their goals are just not compatible with an all-embracing "live and let live" approach, as if one set of food choices were just as okay as another.
It's clear to me that Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau believe not that they are better people than meat-eaters, but instead that their dietary practices are better for animals, and for our world as a whole, than the habits of meat-eaters. Why do many people so readily confuse these two things?"
This!
There is no confusion. When you say, "what I do is better for our world as a whole", you are saying "I'm better than you."
Sometimes it's best to read literally, rather than interpretively. I think this is one of those times.
Many thoughts I have about veganism are philosophical and idealistic, and I don't apply them to individuals.0 -
"In answering my question in the negative, Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau both point to their own meat-eating past. But they do strongly exhort others, through "should"-type speech, to choose certain diets over others: diets that don't involve doing violent harm to animals. I understand this. Both work towards a more compassionate world for animals; their goals are just not compatible with an all-embracing "live and let live" approach, as if one set of food choices were just as okay as another.
It's clear to me that Friedrich and Patrick-Goudreau believe not that they are better people than meat-eaters, but instead that their dietary practices are better for animals, and for our world as a whole, than the habits of meat-eaters. Why do many people so readily confuse these two things?"
This!
There is no confusion. When you say, "what I do is better for our world as a whole", you are saying "I'm better than you."
Well by your logic that means I should assume you think you're better than me for eating meat, right?0 -
I am curious as to how many people posting here actually have met a vegan they didn't like and aren't just hating a stereotype when they've never met a vegan or only met. Like two or three.
and I'm curious to how this thread did any good to NOT perpetuate the stereotype omnivores have for vegans and vice versa.
Neither side can make judgemental statements and not think those statements will be viewed as judgements by the other side.
Unlike other threads I have been on pertaining to this subject, I think there was a lot of respectful and useful discourse. I even made a few friends from it, and not all vegans either. I think there is merit in trying to understand each other, and get past stereotypes and judgments.
I think we just see things differently, yet I think most people actively try to live with integrity and honor. Naturally, each individual will define that uniquely for him/herself.0 -
I am curious as to how many people posting here actually have met a vegan they didn't like and aren't just hating a stereotype when they've never met a vegan or only met. Like two or three.
and I'm curious to how this thread did any good to NOT perpetuate the stereotype omnivores have for vegans and vice versa.
Neither side can make judgemental statements and not think those statements will be viewed as judgements by the other side.
But what about all the meat eating posts? You all get to talk about your diet and beliefs all the time.0 -
There are plenty of threads of vegans asking vegans for dietary advice where no judgements are made, and helpful information is given.
Nobody typically causes a problem in those.
And if they do, shame on them. I don't like when people bomb those type threads either.0 -
I am curious as to how many people posting here actually have met a vegan they didn't like and aren't just hating a stereotype when they've never met a vegan or only met. Like two or three.
and I'm curious to how this thread did any good to NOT perpetuate the stereotype omnivores have for vegans and vice versa.
Neither side can make judgemental statements and not think those statements will be viewed as judgements by the other side.
Unlike other threads I have been on pertaining to this subject, I think there was a lot of respectful and useful discourse. I even made a few friends from it, and not all vegans either. I think there is merit in trying to understand each other, and get past stereotypes and judgments.
I think we just see things differently, yet I think most people actively try to live with integrity and honor. Naturally, each individual will define that uniquely for him/herself.
Thank You for this comment.
The way I see it is like this...........
Vegetarians, vegans, Paleo and clean eaters all share a lot in common (provided they are eating natural foods).
If we want to change the way food is raised and grown, like getting rid of mono-crops and factory farming, then we NEED to work together using our commonalities.
If we are fighting one another, nothing will change.0 -
I am not provoked by a vegan diet. I actually do not care what you eat.
I find sanctimony of any sort to be somewhat tedious.0 -
I am curious as to how many people posting here actually have met a vegan they didn't like and aren't just hating a stereotype when they've never met a vegan or only met. Like two or three.
and I'm curious to how this thread did any good to NOT perpetuate the stereotype omnivores have for vegans and vice versa.
Neither side can make judgemental statements and not think those statements will be viewed as judgements by the other side.
Unlike other threads I have been on pertaining to this subject, I think there was a lot of respectful and useful discourse. I even made a few friends from it, and not all vegans either. I think there is merit in trying to understand each other, and get past stereotypes and judgments.
I think we just see things differently, yet I think most people actively try to live with integrity and honor. Naturally, each individual will define that uniquely for him/herself.
Thank You for this comment.
The way I see it is like this...........
Vegetarians, vegans, Paleo and clean eaters all share a lot in common (provided they are eating natural foods).
If we want to change the way food is raised and grown, like getting rid of mono-crops and factory farming, then we NEED to work together using our commonalities.
If we are fighting one another, nothing will change.
^^Well stated. There's a lot of work to be done, and finding common goals is vital to the process. Thank you for YOUR comment!0 -
i dont understand why everyone has such a big problem with vegans either. seriously, what you eat doesnt make me ****. i eat meat, i dont care where it comes from because im too lazy to worry about it.0
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I wish everyone would just let others live their lives their own way.
And never learn anything from anyone else and have to discover every little thing on their own? Despite the occasional hard feelings and disagreements, I think I'll keep the system we currently have.
No. Being interested in how others live and learning about it without judging is excellent. Trying to make everyone live the same way as you (not you, personally) is where it goes wrong.
Yeah, but what do we do if their "own way" is to be preachy and judgmental?
If everyone lets others live their own way, then it follows that no one would be preachy and judgemental.
I don't see in the 13+ pages where anyone is restricting anyone from living their own way. However, there seems to be quite a bit of preachiness and judgmentalness (two words I'm going to just make up as if they actually exist).
When people say things like, "I wish everyone would just let others live their lives their own way" on MFP, what I think they are saying is that they wish everyone would just not be preachy and judgmental. However, some people by their very nature *are* preachy and judgmental. To say that they should not be seems to me to be as potentially offensive as their original preachiness and judgmentalness is to others.0 -
Most people in my real life don't even know I'm a vegan. But, there are times it comes up and my mere existence seems to challenge some people, no matter how polite and accepting I try to be.
This happens to me as well. I'm very quiet about my choices and I plan ahead when hanging out with friends and such...but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Some people will still feel attacked if you say you're a vegan.
Whatever.0 -
Years ago I went raw vegan for about a year. People would tell me how amazing I looked and ask me what I was doing, when I said I was eating raw they were so 'concerned' they would leave me articles they read or ridicule the way I eat. I never had anyone ridicule me when I ate nachos though....hmmm. I will say that I knew some raw vegans that were 100% and would kinda look down on the ones that were 60%, who would look down on the vegetarians that would eat a baked potato, that would look down on the vegetarians that would eat an occasional egg, or fish, that would look down on the person who eats free range chicken....etc. Just do what works for you and if someone has a problem with it then the problem is theirs, not yours
0 -
I am curious as to how many people posting here actually have met a vegan they didn't like and aren't just hating a stereotype when they've never met a vegan or only met. Like two or three.
and I'm curious to how this thread did any good to NOT perpetuate the stereotype omnivores have for vegans and vice versa.
Neither side can make judgemental statements and not think those statements will be viewed as judgements by the other side.
Unlike other threads I have been on pertaining to this subject, I think there was a lot of respectful and useful discourse. I even made a few friends from it, and not all vegans either. I think there is merit in trying to understand each other, and get past stereotypes and judgments.
I think we just see things differently, yet I think most people actively try to live with integrity and honor. Naturally, each individual will define that uniquely for him/herself.
Thank You for this comment.
The way I see it is like this...........
Vegetarians, vegans, Paleo and clean eaters all share a lot in common (provided they are eating natural foods).
If we want to change the way food is raised and grown, like getting rid of mono-crops and factory farming, then we NEED to work together using our commonalities.
If we are fighting one another, nothing will change.
Great post!0 -
This post is an example of why vegans provoke me. And I am talking about vegans I encounter in all walks of life - this is the superior high and mighty stuff that comes out of their mouths. And if they restrain from saying it until you ask why they don't want an extra hard boiled egg you have in your lunch when they didn't have time to get lunch, then it comes out as that silent judgement that they really believe that they are more educated, compassionate, and righteous than you for just choosing that way of life.
That's the difficulty with being non-mainstream. If you openly share the beliefs that underlie your lifestyle choices, you're seen as being preachy or weird. If you stay silent, you're seen as being silently judgemental. You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't! It's not about what you do - it's just about the fact that people know you have moral opinions that differ from theirs, and they're uncomfortable with that, whether you express these opinions or not.
And I say this as an omnivore who happens to be non-mainstream in many other ways. Following the crowd doesn't come naturally to me, and the social motivations that motivate other don't motivate me, so I have to make a conscious decision about everything I do, and often it's very different from the norm. The assumptions people make as a result are wildly ridiculous. They assume my decisions are about them - whereas in reality my personal moral decisions have nothing to do with them. I am not thinking of them at all - it takes enough mental energy to make moral decisions for how to live my own life without having to also make moral judgements about how others live theirs.
I like your post and think it's very well put. I would add that, in my opinion, non-mainstream choices are neccessarily provocative-whether deliberately so or not. Provocative in the sense that they can stimulate thought, and sometimes words and action in others. This isn't always a bad thing.0 -
I wish everyone would just let others live their lives their own way.
And never learn anything from anyone else and have to discover every little thing on their own? Despite the occasional hard feelings and disagreements, I think I'll keep the system we currently have.
No. Being interested in how others live and learning about it without judging is excellent. Trying to make everyone live the same way as you (not you, personally) is where it goes wrong.
Yeah, but what do we do if their "own way" is to be preachy and judgmental?
If everyone lets others live their own way, then it follows that no one would be preachy and judgemental.
I don't see in the 13+ pages where anyone is restricting anyone from living their own way. However, there seems to be quite a bit of preachiness and judgmentalness (two words I'm going to just make up as if they actually exist).
When people say things like, "I wish everyone would just let others live their lives their own way" on MFP, what I think they are saying is that they wish everyone would just not be preachy and judgmental. However, some people by their very nature *are* preachy and judgmental. To say that they should not be seems to me to be as potentially offensive as their original preachiness and judgmentalness is to others.
Interesting point!
The Myers Briggs personality inventory puts Judging-Perceiving on a continuum, along with three other traits: Extroversion-introversion; Feeling-thinking; and Intuition-sensing. So, expecting all people to genuinely walk away with a 'live and let live' attitude isn't realistic.0 -
Years ago I went raw vegan for about a year. People would tell me how amazing I looked and ask me what I was doing, when I said I was eating raw they were so 'concerned' they would leave me articles they read or ridicule the way I eat. I never had anyone ridicule me when I ate nachos though....hmmm. I will say that I knew some raw vegans that were 100% and would kinda look down on the ones that were 60%, who would look down on the vegetarians that would eat a baked potato, that would look down on the vegetarians that would eat an occasional egg, or fish, that would look down on the person who eats free range chicken....etc. Just do what works for you and if someone has a problem with it then the problem is theirs, not yours
I agree with you. There are always people who take things to the extreme when it comes to any lifestyle choice. I eat meat and decided to do a 10 day stint of just protein to kick start an eating program (Dukan Diet). While I didn't eat just meat, nor eat copious amount of it, people just assumed that I sat there and ate nothing but. I got my protien from other sources as well but even the looks and comments from other "meat eaters" were a bit harsh. I did what worked for me and I felt great afterwards but it was a little rough having so many opposing opinions thrown at me and having these people 'judge' a choice I had made to make me feel better. It was my choice, my body. Nothing I put in my body was going to hurt theirs.
Even as a omnivore though, I do try and make more conscious choices all around. I won't buy products that I know are tested on animals, I try and buy as many things for my home such as cleaning products that are chemical free and plant derived. I even buy vegan cosmetics. These are personal choices that make ME feel better. So I can appreciate everyone elses choices if it makes THEM feel better.
See! Meat eaters and non-meat eaters can get along! 0 -
Years ago I went raw vegan for about a year. People would tell me how amazing I looked and ask me what I was doing, when I said I was eating raw they were so 'concerned' they would leave me articles they read or ridicule the way I eat. I never had anyone ridicule me when I ate nachos though....hmmm. I will say that I knew some raw vegans that were 100% and would kinda look down on the ones that were 60%, who would look down on the vegetarians that would eat a baked potato, that would look down on the vegetarians that would eat an occasional egg, or fish, that would look down on the person who eats free range chicken....etc. Just do what works for you and if someone has a problem with it then the problem is theirs, not yours
I agree with you. There are always people who take things to the extreme when it comes to any lifestyle choice. I eat meat and decided to do a 10 day stint of just protein to kick start an eating program (Dukan Diet). While I didn't eat just meat, nor eat copious amount of it, people just assumed that I sat there and ate nothing but. I got my protien from other sources as well but even the looks and comments from other "meat eaters" were a bit harsh. I did what worked for me and I felt great afterwards but it was a little rough having so many opposing opinions thrown at me and having these people 'judge' a choice I had made to make me feel better. It was my choice, my body. Nothing I put in my body was going to hurt theirs.
Even as a omnivore though, I do try and make more conscious choices all around. I won't buy products that I know are tested on animals, I try and buy as many things for my home such as cleaning products that are chemical free and plant derived. I even buy vegan cosmetics. These are personal choices that make ME feel better. So I can appreciate everyone elses choices if it makes THEM feel better.
See! Meat eaters and Non-meaters can get along!
I really think it's not either/or. This is the reason I like things like 'Meatless Mondays' and NYT food columnist Mark Bittman's 'Vegan Before 6 PM.' If either of those things took off with a large part of the population, it would do amazing things for animals.
Your point also makes me think that the word 'vegan' should be a product label, mainly. Things should be 'vegan', not people. That way, you could choose products based on what makes sense to you without thinking you need to be 'vegan' to buy some Urban Decay eyeliner.
Anyway...I very much like you and everything you said here!0 -
Exactly! No one group is immune.I don't think people are provoked by veganism. I think people are provoked by others who say "my diet is the only way."
Many people seem provoked by anyone that doesn't live like them. On MFP that can mean eating or exercising. I've seen attacks on people for eating vegan or vegetarian, Paleo, Atkins or other low carb, for eating carbs, for not lifting heavy, for doing cardio, yadda, yadda, yadda.
I don't really understand why anyone gets so passionate about how a stranger eats or exercises. I can actually understand those who are vegan for ethical reasons best since they actually have some perceived injustice to right. Though I fail to understand when they seem think berating someone for not thinking like them will make them change.0 -
Years ago I went raw vegan for about a year. People would tell me how amazing I looked and ask me what I was doing, when I said I was eating raw they were so 'concerned' they would leave me articles they read or ridicule the way I eat. I never had anyone ridicule me when I ate nachos though....hmmm. I will say that I knew some raw vegans that were 100% and would kinda look down on the ones that were 60%, who would look down on the vegetarians that would eat a baked potato, that would look down on the vegetarians that would eat an occasional egg, or fish, that would look down on the person who eats free range chicken....etc. Just do what works for you and if someone has a problem with it then the problem is theirs, not yours
I agree with you. There are always people who take things to the extreme when it comes to any lifestyle choice. I eat meat and decided to do a 10 day stint of just protein to kick start an eating program (Dukan Diet). While I didn't eat just meat, nor eat copious amount of it, people just assumed that I sat there and ate nothing but. I got my protien from other sources as well but even the looks and comments from other "meat eaters" were a bit harsh. I did what worked for me and I felt great afterwards but it was a little rough having so many opposing opinions thrown at me and having these people 'judge' a choice I had made to make me feel better. It was my choice, my body. Nothing I put in my body was going to hurt theirs.
Even as a omnivore though, I do try and make more conscious choices all around. I won't buy products that I know are tested on animals, I try and buy as many things for my home such as cleaning products that are chemical free and plant derived. I even buy vegan cosmetics. These are personal choices that make ME feel better. So I can appreciate everyone elses choices if it makes THEM feel better.
See! Meat eaters and Non-meaters can get along!
I really think it's not either/or. This is the reason I like things like 'Meatless Mondays' and NYT food columnist Mark Bittman's 'Vegan Before 6 PM.' If either of those things took off with a large part of the population, it would do amazing things for animals.
Your point also makes me think that the word 'vegan' should be a product label, mainly. Things should be 'vegan', not people. That way, you could choose products based on what makes sense to you without thinking you need to be 'vegan' to buy some Urban Decay eyeliner.
Anyway...I very much like you and everything you said here!
I don't actually think it's either/or either (too many eithers??), just being a smart-*kitten*.
Even being an omni, I don't love how some animals are treated prior to being made into the food I love so much so I also try and make more conscious decisions on where my meat comes from. As much as I hate to admit it sometimes, ignorance is bliss in some cases.
I do like your opinion that product labels should use "vegan" as a title and not people (not that it offends me that people call themselves vegans). I actually wish there were more labels on products or better yet, more products that were available that were vegan. It would make it easier for people to make more conscious choices about what they purchase. I have had friends ask me about what eyeliner I use (it comes up more than I can tell you since I guess I draw the best cat eyes, LoL) and when I tell them I refuse to use a regular department store brand because they test on animals, they're shocked. I definitely never looked down on them because they were using that particular kind, they just weren't informed. But having told them, they chose an animal friendly brand the next time. If there were more options available with clear labels, I think people would choose differently because there are a great number of people who do care about animals even if they eat them every once in a while.
And thanks! I like you very much as well!0 -
WOW, so many replies in so little time. Well. Hot topic- that should say something?
I read most of the posts pheww...
I found some comments from people that really want to understand and some that really wants to explain.
I found resourceful references,
I found really smart, nice and decent people and a few friends- nice!
A few people posts many comments and debates passionately.
There are also very funny mfp:ers out there- you know who you are!
A very few people posts hateful comments.
Keep it coming
And please keep in mind: "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a harder battle.” ― Plato
I am out of here0 -
The people who make a lifestyle of criticizing others are subconsciously taking their internal focus off of themselves...turning it outward.
We all know what's right and wrong, but we pay more attention to other people doing (or not doing) it..That way, we never have to change anything about us...we just tell THEM how to do it. :laugh:
Genius. :indifferent:0 -
After reading through the entire thread that this person is referring to I must admit that this is the type of vegan that makes my blood boil,I don't think it's people are provoked by vegans in general. I think it's like anyone else preaching their decisions as if we all have to agree with their choices. It's no different than bible thumpers shoving beliefs down your throat, Athiests shoving their non-belief beliefs (wow reads funny) down your throat, etc. While it's not every vegan, bible thumper, or Athiest, it's just a handful who act that way and people just get annoyed. In reality, most don't care and don't act out like that. But like any group, you have SOMEONE who is extreme and annoying about what they believe in.
But the difference is someone wouldn't post "I'M BURNING A BIBLE RIGHT NOW!" on a Christian thread. Why do people feel the need to post "YUM! I WANT STEAK! THOSE COWS DESERVED IT!" on a vegan thread? That happened yesterday after someone posted the results of a study. I don't comment on threads with meat in the title, so non-vegans should do the same if they only intend to upset the others.
I dont preach my beliefs to anyone, I dont want to be scolded, or compared to a slave trader because I choose to eat meat,
the OP I have absolutly no problem with anyones choices, as long as they are not illegal or directly concern me or my family.0
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