Vegan lifestyle and Awareness about what we're eating!
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Tom the turkey , Charley the steer and bob the bacon pig all in my freezer lead a happy ,grass fed , no chemical life right up to the end. My critters get top treatment and they are very tasty.0
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While I am pretty sure no one visits these message boards mistaking them for peer reviewed journals...
Low-heat Pasteurization heats the milk to 145° and holds it there for 30 minutes, then it is quickly cooled to prepare for bottling. This is a third type that's mostly used by small dairy farmers shipping milk locally.
One of our Denver-local dairymen himself pointed out to me that ultra-pasturization is key to diminished milk quality of mass produced milk. Here are a few citations *building a case* for this as fact. I am not representing this post as a conclusive meta analysis of the topic, just food for thought.
"The Journal of Nutrition"; Ultra High Temperature Treatment, but Not Pasteurization, Affects the Postprandial Kinetics of Milk Proteins in Humans; Magali Lacroix, et al.; 2008
"The Journal of Nutrition"; Denaturation of the Folacin-Binding Protein in Pasteurized Milk Products; Jessie F. Gregory III; July 1982
University of Minnesota; Raw Milk vs. Pasteurization Debate Revisited; Suzanne Driessen; September 2003
"Nutrition and Dietetics, 2007 Edition"; Margaret McWilliams; 2006
Protein Denaturation
One issue that arises with ultra-pasteurized milk is the denaturation of the whey protein in the milk. Registered dietitian Margaret McWilliams explains that he extra heat used in ultra-pasteurization breaks some of the structural bonds in the protein, thereby causing it to elongate. This can affect the protein's solubility and how it behaves in your body. A 2008 study published in the "Journal of Nutrition," shows that humans utilize more proteins from postmeal pasteurized or micro-filtered milk than from ultra-pasteurized milk. However, serum nitrogen levels were higher after consuming ultra-pasteurized milk, which the researchers conclude is likely the result of protein denaturation.
Nutrient Loss
Adding heat to raw milk causes mild nutrient loss in pasteurized milk. The University of Minnesota reports that pasteurized milk loses 3 to 4 percent thiamin, less than 5 percent vitamin E and less than 10 percent of biotin during the heating process. Jesse Gregory III demonstrated in 1982 that the denaturation of milk's whey proteins through pasteurization can decrease how well your body absorbs the milk's vitamin B12. Ultra-pasteurization may further degrade these nutrients, though the increased shelf life of the milk often offsets the additional nutritional cost.
Sterilization
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration reports that raw milk can carry dangerous bacteria like Salmonella, E. coli and Listeria, all of which may pose a significant risk to your health. Pasteurization kills these harmful bacteria, though it may leave other nonpathogenic bacteria that can still cause milk spoilage. Ultra-pasteurization effectively kills all bacteria in the milk. Removal of these bacteria may alter the flavor of the milk.0 -
@featherandfern: I notice you just joined MFP this month. You may not be aware that they are group forums with people who like to discuss this topic without rancor. Here are a couple: Happy herbivores and Team Vegan.
In my experience, most people who post on the open forums have figured things out for themselves. Most are perfectly satisfied, and may get insulted by someone coming on here and advocating a particular diet.
Please message me if you can't find your way to the group forums.
wait wait wait... so we're being rude and mean?
I have plenty of friends who are vegetarians (even a vegan but I don't see her much these days) I have never had an argument with them over food (other things yes) because they don't try and force me into how they eat nor do they use scare tactics. They eat their salads I eat my salad but mine has chicken.
If you post on an open forum expect open responses, anything else is childish.0 -
Thank you for proving we shouldn't worry about the milk pasteurisation process.While I am pretty sure no one visits these message boards mistaking them for peer reviewed journals...
Low-heat Pasteurization heats the milk to 145° and holds it there for 30 minutes, then it is quickly cooled to prepare for bottling. This is a third type that's mostly used by small dairy farmers shipping milk locally.
One of our Denver-local dairymen himself pointed out to me that ultra-pasturization is key to diminished milk quality of mass produced milk. Here are a few citations *building a case* for this as fact. I am not representing this post as a conclusive meta analysis of the topic, just food for thought.
"The Journal of Nutrition"; Ultra High Temperature Treatment, but Not Pasteurization, Affects the Postprandial Kinetics of Milk Proteins in Humans; Magali Lacroix, et al.; 2008
"The Journal of Nutrition"; Denaturation of the Folacin-Binding Protein in Pasteurized Milk Products; Jessie F. Gregory III; July 1982
University of Minnesota; Raw Milk vs. Pasteurization Debate Revisited; Suzanne Driessen; September 2003
"Nutrition and Dietetics, 2007 Edition"; Margaret McWilliams; 2006
Protein Denaturation
One issue that arises with ultra-pasteurized milk is the denaturation of the whey protein in the milk. Registered dietitian Margaret McWilliams explains that he extra heat used in ultra-pasteurization breaks some of the structural bonds in the protein, thereby causing it to elongate. This can affect the protein's solubility and how it behaves in your body. A 2008 study published in the "Journal of Nutrition," shows that humans utilize more proteins from postmeal pasteurized or micro-filtered milk than from ultra-pasteurized milk. However, serum nitrogen levels were higher after consuming ultra-pasteurized milk, which the researchers conclude is likely the result of protein denaturation.
Nutrient Loss
Adding heat to raw milk causes mild nutrient loss in pasteurized milk. The University of Minnesota reports that pasteurized milk loses 3 to 4 percent thiamin, less than 5 percent vitamin E and less than 10 percent of biotin during the heating process. Jesse Gregory III demonstrated in 1982 that the denaturation of milk's whey proteins through pasteurization can decrease how well your body absorbs the milk's vitamin B12. Ultra-pasteurization may further degrade these nutrients, though the increased shelf life of the milk often offsets the additional nutritional cost.
Sterilization
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration reports that raw milk can carry dangerous bacteria like Salmonella, E. coli and Listeria, all of which may pose a significant risk to your health. Pasteurization kills these harmful bacteria, though it may leave other nonpathogenic bacteria that can still cause milk spoilage. Ultra-pasteurization effectively kills all bacteria in the milk. Removal of these bacteria may alter the flavor of the milk.0 -
I like my animals. The end. If you're worried about cows or milk, go to a local farm, buy cage free and grass fed, etc. My mom is a vegetarian ( a real one, not the kind that lives off of cereal), I am not, and guess which one of us never gets sicks and isn't borderline anemic?0
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Disagreement is ALWAYS viewed as a vicious attack.@featherandfern: I notice you just joined MFP this month. You may not be aware that they are group forums with people who like to discuss this topic without rancor. Here are a couple: Happy herbivores and Team Vegan.
In my experience, most people who post on the open forums have figured things out for themselves. Most are perfectly satisfied, and may get insulted by someone coming on here and advocating a particular diet.
Please message me if you can't find your way to the group forums.
wait wait wait... so we're being rude and mean?
I have plenty of friends who are vegetarians (even a vegan but I don't see her much these days) I have never had an argument with them over food (other things yes) because they don't try and force me into how they eat nor do they use scare tactics. They eat their salads I eat my salad but mine has chicken.
If you post on an open forum expect open responses, anything else is childish.0 -
Commonly accepted knowledge doesn't require a citation and that is how I clearly represented it.0
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Disagreement is ALWAYS viewed as a vicious attack.@featherandfern: I notice you just joined MFP this month. You may not be aware that they are group forums with people who like to discuss this topic without rancor. Here are a couple: Happy herbivores and Team Vegan.
In my experience, most people who post on the open forums have figured things out for themselves. Most are perfectly satisfied, and may get insulted by someone coming on here and advocating a particular diet.
Please message me if you can't find your way to the group forums.
wait wait wait... so we're being rude and mean?
I have plenty of friends who are vegetarians (even a vegan but I don't see her much these days) I have never had an argument with them over food (other things yes) because they don't try and force me into how they eat nor do they use scare tactics. They eat their salads I eat my salad but mine has chicken.
If you post on an open forum expect open responses, anything else is childish.
Peace, BJ.0 -
@featherandfern: I notice you just joined MFP this month. You may not be aware that they are group forums with people who like to discuss this topic without rancor. Here are a couple: Happy herbivores and Team Vegan.
In my experience, most people who post on the open forums have figured things out for themselves. Most are perfectly satisfied, and may get insulted by someone coming on here and advocating a particular diet.
Please message me if you can't find your way to the group forums.
wait wait wait... so we're being rude and mean?
I have plenty of friends who are vegetarians (even a vegan but I don't see her much these days) I have never had an argument with them over food (other things yes) because they don't try and force me into how they eat nor do they use scare tactics. They eat their salads I eat my salad but mine has chicken.
If you post on an open forum expect open responses, anything else is childish.
Where did you get that she said people are rude and mean from? VoV was just suggesting a group that may be beneficial to the OP.0 -
I love it when you stalk me
Disagreement is ALWAYS viewed as a vicious attack.@featherandfern: I notice you just joined MFP this month. You may not be aware that they are group forums with people who like to discuss this topic without rancor. Here are a couple: Happy herbivores and Team Vegan.
In my experience, most people who post on the open forums have figured things out for themselves. Most are perfectly satisfied, and may get insulted by someone coming on here and advocating a particular diet.
Please message me if you can't find your way to the group forums.
wait wait wait... so we're being rude and mean?
I have plenty of friends who are vegetarians (even a vegan but I don't see her much these days) I have never had an argument with them over food (other things yes) because they don't try and force me into how they eat nor do they use scare tactics. They eat their salads I eat my salad but mine has chicken.
If you post on an open forum expect open responses, anything else is childish.
Peace, BJ.
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Thank you for proving we shouldn't worry about the milk pasteurisation process.While I am pretty sure no one visits these message boards mistaking them for peer reviewed journals...
Low-heat Pasteurization heats the milk to 145° and holds it there for 30 minutes, then it is quickly cooled to prepare for bottling. This is a third type that's mostly used by small dairy farmers shipping milk locally.
One of our Denver-local dairymen himself pointed out to me that ultra-pasturization is key to diminished milk quality of mass produced milk. Here are a few citations *building a case* for this as fact. I am not representing this post as a conclusive meta analysis of the topic, just food for thought.
"The Journal of Nutrition"; Ultra High Temperature Treatment, but Not Pasteurization, Affects the Postprandial Kinetics of Milk Proteins in Humans; Magali Lacroix, et al.; 2008
"The Journal of Nutrition"; Denaturation of the Folacin-Binding Protein in Pasteurized Milk Products; Jessie F. Gregory III; July 1982
University of Minnesota; Raw Milk vs. Pasteurization Debate Revisited; Suzanne Driessen; September 2003
"Nutrition and Dietetics, 2007 Edition"; Margaret McWilliams; 2006
Protein Denaturation
One issue that arises with ultra-pasteurized milk is the denaturation of the whey protein in the milk. Registered dietitian Margaret McWilliams explains that he extra heat used in ultra-pasteurization breaks some of the structural bonds in the protein, thereby causing it to elongate. This can affect the protein's solubility and how it behaves in your body. A 2008 study published in the "Journal of Nutrition," shows that humans utilize more proteins from postmeal pasteurized or micro-filtered milk than from ultra-pasteurized milk. However, serum nitrogen levels were higher after consuming ultra-pasteurized milk, which the researchers conclude is likely the result of protein denaturation.
Nutrient Loss
Adding heat to raw milk causes mild nutrient loss in pasteurized milk. The University of Minnesota reports that pasteurized milk loses 3 to 4 percent thiamin, less than 5 percent vitamin E and less than 10 percent of biotin during the heating process. Jesse Gregory III demonstrated in 1982 that the denaturation of milk's whey proteins through pasteurization can decrease how well your body absorbs the milk's vitamin B12. Ultra-pasteurization may further degrade these nutrients, though the increased shelf life of the milk often offsets the additional nutritional cost.
Sterilization
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration reports that raw milk can carry dangerous bacteria like Salmonella, E. coli and Listeria, all of which may pose a significant risk to your health. Pasteurization kills these harmful bacteria, though it may leave other nonpathogenic bacteria that can still cause milk spoilage. Ultra-pasteurization effectively kills all bacteria in the milk. Removal of these bacteria may alter the flavor of the milk.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Also, just to point out UHT pastuerization is not typically used for the milk that normal consumers buy. It's often used in food preparation in places like fast food restaurants and allows the milk to remain unspoiled at room temperature.
edit: typo0 -
QUOTE: wait wait wait... so we're being rude and mean?
I never said anyone was being rude and mean. I said that it that this topic can stir up rancor (bitterness, ill-will, drama) on the open forums. I am merely encouraging the OP to join others who want to discuss the fine-tuning of vegan diets.0 -
While I am pretty sure no one visits these message boards mistaking them for peer reviewed journals...
Low-heat Pasteurization heats the milk to 145° and holds it there for 30 minutes, then it is quickly cooled to prepare for bottling. This is a third type that's mostly used by small dairy farmers shipping milk locally.
One of our Denver-local dairymen himself pointed out to me that ultra-pasturization is key to diminished milk quality of mass produced milk. Here are a few citations *building a case* for this as fact. I am not representing this post as a conclusive meta analysis of the topic, just food for thought.
"The Journal of Nutrition"; Ultra High Temperature Treatment, but Not Pasteurization, Affects the Postprandial Kinetics of Milk Proteins in Humans; Magali Lacroix, et al.; 2008
"The Journal of Nutrition"; Denaturation of the Folacin-Binding Protein in Pasteurized Milk Products; Jessie F. Gregory III; July 1982
University of Minnesota; Raw Milk vs. Pasteurization Debate Revisited; Suzanne Driessen; September 2003
"Nutrition and Dietetics, 2007 Edition"; Margaret McWilliams; 2006
Protein Denaturation
One issue that arises with ultra-pasteurized milk is the denaturation of the whey protein in the milk. Registered dietitian Margaret McWilliams explains that he extra heat used in ultra-pasteurization breaks some of the structural bonds in the protein, thereby causing it to elongate. This can affect the protein's solubility and how it behaves in your body. A 2008 study published in the "Journal of Nutrition," shows that humans utilize more proteins from postmeal pasteurized or micro-filtered milk than from ultra-pasteurized milk. However, serum nitrogen levels were higher after consuming ultra-pasteurized milk, which the researchers conclude is likely the result of protein denaturation.
Nutrient Loss
Adding heat to raw milk causes mild nutrient loss in pasteurized milk. The University of Minnesota reports that pasteurized milk loses 3 to 4 percent thiamin, less than 5 percent vitamin E and less than 10 percent of biotin during the heating process. Jesse Gregory III demonstrated in 1982 that the denaturation of milk's whey proteins through pasteurization can decrease how well your body absorbs the milk's vitamin B12. Ultra-pasteurization may further degrade these nutrients, though the increased shelf life of the milk often offsets the additional nutritional cost.
Sterilization
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration reports that raw milk can carry dangerous bacteria like Salmonella, E. coli and Listeria, all of which may pose a significant risk to your health. Pasteurization kills these harmful bacteria, though it may leave other nonpathogenic bacteria that can still cause milk spoilage. Ultra-pasteurization effectively kills all bacteria in the milk. Removal of these bacteria may alter the flavor of the milk.
lol of course we don't, that's why we ask for proof! Thanks for obliging, by the way.
Anyways, after a quick read, it supports what I said- there is a minimal loss of vitamin uptake, though it maybe the tiredness or the dyslexia talking here (dyslexics untie!) but I can't see anything I should be worrying about. Afterall I eat veggies (look, I had a meat free day today... unless you count fish!) so they would compensate for anything that the minimal shelf life of normal (non UHT) milk would give me. Unless there is a huuuuge dent in the nutritional values (I'm talking 40% plus) I don't see why we should be worried.0 -
Yes this^ You will find MFP to be often a bit hostile towards vegetarian and vegans especially when you post to the general boards. But I do think those of us who are vegans/vegetarians would be happy to discuss this topic. So I second the suggestion from the poster I quoted above. Welcome to MFP@featherandfern: I notice you just joined MFP this month. You may not be aware that they are group forums with people who like to discuss this topic without rancor. Here are a couple: Happy herbivores and Team Vegan.
In my experience, most people who post on the open forums have figured things out for themselves. Most are perfectly satisfied, and may get insulted by someone coming on here and advocating a particular diet.
Please message me if you can't find your way to the group forums.
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By the way, the antibiotic argument is often invalid. In Idaho at least, antibiotics are not allowed in dairy, and that's not even the organic milk.0
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The best source I have found for objective and scientific protein requirements is from the World Health Organization http://www.who.int/nutrition/publications/nutrientrequirements/WHO_TRS_935/en/index.html - WHO essentially states that the average requirement is .66 g/kg protein a day for adults. For a 75 kg (165 lb) person that comes to 50 grams a day. I get that amount easily with a plant based diet. Maybe you just need more protein than the average person.
Perhaps I do, though I know at least three others in my yoga and gym circles who have had similar struggles trying to go plant-based. I conceded that it's entirely possible your diet works for you and that you're happy with your body composition. Your response may contain a link to a perfectly credible source, but it did nothing to help me understand if it's possible to have a high protein low carb vegan/nearly vegan diet that meets my needs. You just became another person who responded to my genuine question by with a non-answer statement about people requiring less protein than I find optimal in my own diet . Let's just be clear on that. :flowerforyou:
Edited to remove unintended snark.0 -
Where did you get that she said people are rude and mean from? VoV was just suggesting a group that may be beneficial to the OP.
Agreed, I thought VoV's response was very polite and thoughtful. OP, on the other hand, has not bothered to return and defend the fact that she's trying to inform us of the terrible evils of milk while at the same time having dairy in her food journal.0 -
yes, it is healthier and yes it is a moral wrong to participate in the factory farmed foods. BUT---if a person has the stomach to kill his/her own food--that seems like the only ethical way to do it. It's true---we are too separated from the production of our meat to really grasp what it is to take the life of a fellow creature and eat it. I will not eat meat that has been factory farmed or from a source I do not personally know---that the animal has had a good life and was killed for food by the butcher himself---this doing is too profound to just pretend it doesn't happen. Have some respect. we are part of the food chain too; animals eat animals---but the way we do it with this factory farming is a perversion of nature.
The meat I eat I walk by it before hand, my family prefers to pay extra and go to the local farmer/butcher who raises, kills, butchers and sells the meat. I know he's just started to hang the Christmas turkey's as I didn't see them from the bus today
Yes, we are lucky to live in rural areas who can see that the animals are treated properly by our farming families. I'm not sure if people who live in the city like NY realize that this kind of local butcher is still alive and thriving out here in the boonies. The animals live in big pastures or free range chickens. At times they will butcher and sell the meat. I keep chickens and eat the eggs, but I can't kill them because I actually think of them as pets who work for the family. I do not have the stomach to kill an animal even to eat it but I don't see anything wrong with eating their eggs, or a bee's honey. They are not killed.0 -
:drinker: :smokin:0
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QUOTE: wait wait wait... so we're being rude and mean?
I never said anyone was being rude and mean. I said that it can stir up rancor (bitterness, ill-will, drama). I am merely encouraging the OP to join others who want to discuss the fine-tuning of vegan diets.
Rancor, someone with a grudge (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/rancor), people with grudges are rude and mean (at least I am when I hold one) so yes. That's what I read from the word, at no point have I been rude or suggested I have a grudge against vegetarians (from the piece quoted I pointed out I had friends who are vegetarians). Maybe I just take things too literally?0 -
Nvm0
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From Horizon Dairy's website:
Does Horizon organic single serve milk need refrigeration?
Single serve milk is packaged in individual aseptic containers and will keep at room temperature, unopened, up to seven months or until the date code. This extended shelf life is possible due to ultra-high temperature (UHT) pasteurization. UHT pasteurization and special aseptic packaging keep single serve products fresh and safe without refrigeration. Once opened, the More…
Are Horizon products pasteurized?
Yes. Pasteurization is the process of heating milk to make it safe from harmful bacteria and to increase its longevity. For our half gallon and gallon products, Horizon uses both high-temperature short-time (HTST) pasteurization, and ultra-pasteurization (UP). HTST milk is labeled “pasteurized,” while UP milk is labeled “ultra-pasteurized.” Aside from the fact that UP milk More…
UHT pasteurization is not something outside the mainstream. If your milk claims to be good for weeks or months from now when you look at the expiration date, this is why.0 -
Okay, what's your point? O.oFrom Horizon Dairy's website:
Does Horizon organic single serve milk need refrigeration?
Single serve milk is packaged in individual aseptic containers and will keep at room temperature, unopened, up to seven months or until the date code. This extended shelf life is possible due to ultra-high temperature (UHT) pasteurization. UHT pasteurization and special aseptic packaging keep single serve products fresh and safe without refrigeration. Once opened, the More…
Are Horizon products pasteurized?
Yes. Pasteurization is the process of heating milk to make it safe from harmful bacteria and to increase its longevity. For our half gallon and gallon products, Horizon uses both high-temperature short-time (HTST) pasteurization, and ultra-pasteurization (UP). HTST milk is labeled “pasteurized,” while UP milk is labeled “ultra-pasteurized.” Aside from the fact that UP milk More…
UHT pasteurization is not something outside the mainstream. If your milk claims to be good for weeks or months from now when you look at the expiration date, this is why.0 -
I'm a freegan (not 100% vegan since its impossible 100% of the time) and think we are being poorly represented if people cant actually back up these so called facts with any real evidence.
I mean, documentaries, come on! Next you will be quoting PETA and wikipedia.0 -
QUOTE: wait wait wait... so we're being rude and mean?
I never said anyone was being rude and mean. I said that it can stir up rancor (bitterness, ill-will, drama). I am merely encouraging the OP to join others who want to discuss the fine-tuning of vegan diets.
Rancor, someone with a grudge (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/rancor), people with grudges are rude and mean (at least I am when I hold one) so yes. That's what I read from the word, at no point have I been rude or suggested I have a grudge against vegetarians (from the piece quoted I pointed out I had friends who are vegetarians). Maybe I just take things too literally?
I wasn't suggesting anyone here was being rude and mean. I was suggesting that these threads have a tendency to devolve and get nasty. I have seen this happen many times since I joined here a year ago.0 -
I agree with you, SaraUK2sf.0
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I agree with you, SaraUK2sf.
It was a joke, my god. I eat vegetables as well. I know many vegan/vegetarians. I wasn't aware that debating about what each other eats was a serious, life or death matter. I'll leave you to it.0 -
I agree with you, SaraUK2sf.
It was a joke, my god. I eat vegetable as well. I know many vegan/vegetarians. I wasn't aware that debating about what each other eats was a serious, life or death matter. I'll leave you to it.
I've seen this image more times than I can count on these vegan threads. Repetitive things cease to be funny.0 -
I agree with you, SaraUK2sf.
It was a joke, my god. I eat vegetable as well. I know many vegan/vegetarians. I wasn't aware that debating about what each other eats was a serious, life or death matter. I'll leave you to it.
I've seen this image more times than I can count on these vegan threads. Repetitive things cease to be funny.
Forgive me for not amusing you. I tend to avoid these threads for this very reason.0
This discussion has been closed.
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