Do you think milk is safe?
Replies
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And for all you masochists out there who really just had to know....
Topic 4: Raw milk is safe right?
Yes, it is safe if it comes from a reputable dairy farmer. My uncle had a dairy farm before he retired. Raw milk is *all* they ever drank. I used to love drinking it when we went for visits. Anyone who tells you otherwise puts too much faith in food industry bureaucrats.
Agree. I grew up on raw milk. These people seem to forget about all the recalls "safe" processing plant issue all the time. So many people afraid of the Boogey Man.
No doubt! The idea that the "Big Pharma" and food industry leaders that run the FDA are actually successful at keeping us safe is laughable at best.
I miss my uncle's dairy farm. :sad:0 -
Sounds like you were sitting at a table full of morons!0
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And for all you masochists out there who really just had to know....
Topic 4: Raw milk is safe right?
Yes, it is safe if it comes from a reputable dairy farmer. My uncle had a dairy farm before he retired. Raw milk is *all* they ever drank. I used to love drinking it when we went for visits. Anyone who tells you otherwise puts too much faith in food industry bureaucrats.
Reputable like the following?
1. http://foodpoisoningbulletin.com/2012/pennsylvania-raw-milk-outbreak-one-of-nations-largest/
2. http://foodpoisoningbulletin.com/2012/oregon-raw-milk-farm-tests-positive-for-e-coli-0157/
3. http://foodpoisoningbulletin.com/2012/ten-sick-from-campylobacter-linked-to-ca-organic-pastures-raw-milk-products-recall-ordered/
4. http://foodpoisoningbulletin.com/2012/another-possible-raw-milk-outbreak-in-california/
5. http://www.marlerclark.com/wisconsin-raw-milk-campylobacter-outbreak/
6. http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/02/recent_outbreak_from_raw_milk.html
I can pull up a some more, but I think I've made my point. EVEN REPUTABLE FARMS GET SICK COWS. Even farms without sick cows can have subclinical TB, Ecoli STEC, Salmonella, Camplobacter, listeria, leptosporsis and other diseases that can harm those without a competent immune system. Raw milk is never 100% safe but some farms are safer than others.
All that said, if you're willing to take the risk (which is usually pretty low for healthy people in the US since our animals are awesomely healthy), then go for it. However, if you expose my HIV positive friend to a potential pathogen because you didn't wash your hands after you drank that milk, I will regard you as a lesser human being.
The key is: be safe, know the risk.
Edit: I'm going to add this because I think this sums up everything nicely:“It is possible for people to get sick from any food. There is no such thing as a food that has never made people sick,” said Judith McGeary, executive director of the Farm and Ranch Freedom Alliance, a national group dedicated to independent farmers.0 -
In the wild wild east, in Sindh, when I used to go to the local farmers who kept some cows around, they would take the milk out of the cow and literally pour me a glass. I don't care what anyone says but that was the most delicious thing I ever drank. So rich and... just delicious!
Many people have drank that stuff raw, straight out of the cow. So fast that the milk is still warm. In Europe it is common practice to do so too. In US, regulations are wayyyy too tough and cautious which actually kills a lot of good enzmes too. Which is also why there are certain cheese that cannot be made the "proper" way in US legally and also why European cheese are far superior in taste
Just my humble opinion. Also thanks for adding tl;dr btw
No prob on the TLDR. I know I'm wordy.
I will agree with you on the raw milk thing. I know several people including veterinarians, farmers and my own mother that have drank raw milk and NEVER had a problem. Why? Because they were raised on it, they are healthy and they are able to fight off the pathogens. The problem is when people push raw milk on the immunocompromised such as HIV patients, organ transplant recipients, or young children without good immune systems. You need to be healthy to drink raw milk. If you aren't, even the stupidest little bug could kill you and raw milk has plenty of stupid little bugs.
All that said, several of my teachers were talking about getting fresh village cheeses from veterinary assistance trips to Mexico, India, Pakistan and Egypt. One of them got tape worms from eating undercooked chicken. Another got brucellosis from helping birth a cow and had arthritis for two years following treatment. Our head professor went to a farm in South America where the milk was PINK due to blood from listeriosis infection. One of his best friend's died from brucellosis caught while either drinking raw milk or helping with a dystocia. The final one ate village cheese (made with raw milk), loved it, and simply kept and eye on himself to make sure he never got an undulating fever (a hallmark of many of those diseases).
Raw milk is fine if you're healthy and you keep an eye on yourself, but it is not "safe" as in feed this to your friend with HIV.
It doesn't look like raw milk is to blame for any of those deaths. Have you noticed that it's only folks like the FDA that make such wild claims? On the one hand, they spend tens of millions of tax dollars encouraging us to drink milk, then they spend tens of millions more raiding Amish farmers and private dairy cooperatives.
Hmmmm...0 -
Milk is very dangerous for you.
A carton of milk once attacked me with a baseball bat. I had to defend myself with a packet of chocolate chip cookies. True story.0 -
Milk is very dangerous for you.
A carton of milk once attacked me with a baseball bat. I had to defend myself with a packet of chocolate chip cookies. True story.
It`s awful when milk goes bad...0 -
Giving a cat cow's milk can cause tummy troubles. That's why they have cat's milk substitute that's sold pretty much anywhere they have pet food/supplies.
It's not the cow's milk... it's the lactose. My cat drinks Lactaid. And because she drinks Lactaid, so do I. She also eats sharp cheddar cheese. The sharper the cheese, the less lactose it contains. No tummy trouble at all.
ETA: you're killing me quote box!0 -
Think about this logically....Don't you think if this were true, there would have been a lot more sick people in generations past? Those hearty folk that lived by the milkman's deliveries?
Milk is fine, healthy even- full of nutrients. Consider the agendas of those that push this nonsense. Usually it's a vegan scare tactic.
Oddly, both of the ladies at the table leading the "milk causes cancer" conversation were both people who had dealt with cancer and consequently became vegans. Although, I don't think they were trying to be mean really. I think they truly believed what they were saying and were now sort of preaching it to the masses.0 -
''Everybody is overreacting,'' Mrs. Child said. ''If fear of food continues, it will be the death of gastronomy in the United States. Fortunately, the French don't suffer from the same hysteria we do.'' ''We should enjoy food and have fun,'' Mrs. Child insisted. ''It is one of the simplest and nicest pleasures in life.''
Mrs. Child recalled that when she began her mission of bringing French cooking into American kitchens nearly 30 years ago, ''no one cared'' about what food might do to one's health. ''Those were halcyon days,'' she said. ''You could eat anything you wanted. I remember a wonderful recipe for spinach. You put in as much butter as the spinach could possibly hold.''
No more. Today, nutrition has ''reared its ugly head,'' she said, and cholesterol has ''become a trendy word.'' People are so fearful of what they eat, Mrs. Child observed, ''they are no longer enjoying food the way they once did, and the dinner table is becoming a trap rather than a pleasure.''
Quote from - etoiles_argenI believe most of us are on this website because we didn't care about what we ate, and put as much butter in spinach that it could possibly hold. Those things had side effects on us that are, diabetes, HIGH cholesterol, heart attacks, etc... Don't know how this was supposed to help but if I ate like Julia Child's wisdom states, I'd be back where I started, unhealthy, unhappy, and on my way to diabetes.
Live how you'd like, food doesn't scare me.
then why are you on MFP? just curious.
My FITNESS pal?0 -
Sounds like you were sitting at a table full of morons!
Not morons. I was sitting at a table full of people who had faced cancer, almost died, and really wanted to answer the "why?" question for themselves. Whether their answer is true or not is obviously debatable...but they somehow wanted to latch on to it as truth (no pun intended
)
It kind of reminds me of the autism debate. I have a son with autism so I've been introduced to the autism community on a very personal level. So many parents are insistent that vaccinations caused autism in their child. Maybe that's true, maybe not. But they were content with that being their truth so that they had something to blame.
So, I'm not inclined to believe that milk is evil or unsafe. But who knows, maybe that's just me wanting THAT to be the truth so I can keep eating ice cream?!0 -
^^^^Milk is not safe. Studies show the cassein is linked to cancer in animals as well as all the other problems. But it's also very difficult to eliminate milk from the diet. I do Soy and Almond milk, but I still have cheese and other dairy occasionally. I suppose that's better than nothing. Want to know who came up with the idea that we should drink milk everyday and give it to our children? Housewives in the 1950s. Milk does NOT do a body good.
I've just read so much about how unsanitary milk-producing factories are, how the cows are treated, the whole process is just gross, then on top of that the studies that shows it contributes to osteoperosis. I just don't drink it anymore, but I have cheese now and then.0 -
Milk is very dangerous for you.
A carton of milk once attacked me with a baseball bat. I had to defend myself with a packet of chocolate chip cookies. True story.
It`s awful when milk goes bad...
0 -
Milk is very dangerous for you.
A carton of milk once attacked me with a baseball bat. I had to defend myself with a packet of chocolate chip cookies. True story.
just throw cats at it, no need to waste cookies.0 -
People have been drinking milk and dairy for thousands of years. I'm sure milk is as safe as any other food product you can buy at the grocery store. It is undoubtedly more safe than many highly processed foods like Cool-whip or soft drinks.0
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If the question is, is milk safe? That answer is yes.
If the question is, should we drink milk because it's 'healthy' or does milk have any detrimental effects? That's a whole other ball park.
I have experience in this because I used to test milk in a dairy for several years.
I'll run through some issues...
1) Antibiotics: They are usually given to steers to help growth and proactively guard against unsanitary conditions. Dairy cows only get antibiotics when they develop mastitis (infection/inflammation) of the udders. They usually are taken off the runs for a period of two weeks. All dairies test for antibiotics when a milk tanker comes in to be processed. If antibiotics are detected the whole tanker, unless it is a split with whole and skim, is rejected. You can be reasonably sure your milk is antibiotic free.
2) Hormones: They are also used the same as antibiotics for steers. Dairy cows could get this for the same reason. But most dairies have their farmer's pledge not use them. Milk cows are way more valuable than steers, so the short term gain probably is not worth it. Complicating the matter is that it is prohibitively expensive to test every run/tanker/cow for hormones. So your milk being free from hormones is as good as the farmer's making the pledge. You might be better drinking organic certified milk, if your state has their own organic standards; or if they follow stricter state standards like California's instead of the USDA standards.
3) Healthiness: Milk is a good source of protein, and if you drink reduced fat versions it is even better for you. Whole milk is 3.25% fat content, so while people say-- "Yes, but it has more saturated fat than two strips of bacon"; it is not a large amount. I personally think the issue is overeating. Our parents and grandparents grew up drinking whole milk when the obesity issue was nil. If you're drink a glass of whole milk and eating a sleeve of Oreo's or Chips Ahoy!. I think your issue is the cookies not the milk. But nowadays, my kid's pediatrician recommends them drinking lower fat milk.
4) Intolerance: People (as a whole) lose their ability to digest lactose at different points. This is dependent on your culture and your diet.
5) Diseases: There have really been no large, double-blind experiments or epidemiological studies of cow milk (be it antibiotic or hormone treated) being linked to cancer or auto-immune diseases. This is not to say, it doesn't; but just simply that no one has yet designed, vetted and executed such a studies. Most 'studies'/'facts' tend to be of the Kevin Trudeau ilk. There are some studies by reputable universities suggesting that eating red meat may have some links with certain kind of cancers-- but more study is needed.
6) Safety: Every dairy has a laboratory that tests for the quality and safety of milk. Testing includes: flavor, freezing point, %fat/%protein/%solids, presence of antibiotics, aerobic plate count, coliform plate count -- that's just for the tankers coming in to be processed. Tankers can be rejected for antibiotics and taste. All those tests (except antibiotics) are performed from line pulls usually occurring every hour. Additionally, on the final product, a shelf-life test is performed. Pulled product is stored cold and tested again at expy-date for bacteria and most of the other quality tests.
Personally, I drink cow's milk. I also like soy and rice milk as well. I especially enjoy almond milk.0 -
Live how you'd like, food doesn't scare me.
then why are you on MFP? just curious.
My FITNESS pal?
So, MFP is only for people who are scared of food? :huh:0 -
@radioonemike: that is an excellent summary! I am quoting you in my blog
Here's something SueGremlin wrote a while back:
"Cows have been genetically SELECTED to produce 100+ lbs of milk per cow per day, give or take depending on the breed and quality of said cow. That is without hormones. You are attempting to give the impression that a cow will go from producing 10 lbs of milk a day to 100 from an injection? No. Not even a little true.
When you inject a cow with rBST, she will produce 11-16% more milk than they normally would. Not all cows are treated with rBST, either. Something like 20% of dairies use this hormone.
It is impossible to detect the difference between cows that are treated with rBST and those who are not because there is no difference in the levels of this hormone from cows that are untreated, they produce their own naturally. Read labels. They are carefully worded and do not say "rBST-free milk" because that is not true.
Cows that are treated with antibiotics for mastitis have ALL of their milk WITHHELD from consumption until there are no detectable levels of antibiotics in the milk. There is a positive correlation between cows that produce more milk and the incidence of mastitis, which is a bacterial infection in the udder. Most cows don't have this, and farmers do everything they can to keep the udders of their cows healthy. Farmers who violate this and let antibiotics into their bulk tanks would be penalized very very heavily for it, so they don't do it.
Milk is a very clean food. That is a fact."0 -
^^^^Milk is not safe. Studies show the cassein is linked to cancer in animals as well as all the other problems. But it's also very difficult to eliminate milk from the diet. I do Soy and Almond milk, but I still have cheese and other dairy occasionally. I suppose that's better than nothing. Want to know who came up with the idea that we should drink milk everyday and give it to our children? Housewives in the 1950s. Milk does NOT do a body good.
I've just read so much about how unsanitary milk-producing factories are, how the cows are treated, the whole process is just gross, then on top of that the studies that shows it contributes to osteoperosis. I just don't drink it anymore, but I have cheese now and then.
I keep asking for these studies - I have yet to see one.0 -
Basically any food can allegedly give you cancer. -_-0
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I don't trust milk that is commercially available, but I do trust raw milk from local farmers that treat & feed their animals right. Reach out to your local farmer!0
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Milk is very dangerous for you.
A carton of milk once attacked me with a baseball bat. I had to defend myself with a packet of chocolate chip cookies. True story.
just throw cats at it, no need to waste cookies.
Dont forget, the cats MUST have a thigh gap0 -
Scaremongering!
I consume milk (and basically most forms of dairy) on a daily basis. Doesn't do me any harm. I do, however, only consume organic dairy whenever possible for ethical reasons.
If we believed everything we read about dangers of cancer, we'd be too afraid to get out of bed in the morning,0 -
If the question is, is milk safe? That answer is yes.
If the question is, should we drink milk because it's 'healthy' or does milk have any detrimental effects? That's a whole other ball park.
I have experience in this because I used to test milk in a dairy for several years.
I'll run through some issues...
1) Antibiotics: They are usually given to steers to help growth and proactively guard against unsanitary conditions. Dairy cows only get antibiotics when they develop mastitis (infection/inflammation) of the udders. They usually are taken off the runs for a period of two weeks. All dairies test for antibiotics when a milk tanker comes in to be processed. If antibiotics are detected the whole tanker, unless it is a split with whole and skim, is rejected. You can be reasonably sure your milk is antibiotic free.
2) Hormones: They are also used the same as antibiotics for steers. Dairy cows could get this for the same reason. But most dairies have their farmer's pledge not use them. Milk cows are way more valuable than steers, so the short term gain probably is not worth it. Complicating the matter is that it is prohibitively expensive to test every run/tanker/cow for hormones. So your milk being free from hormones is as good as the farmer's making the pledge. You might be better drinking organic certified milk, if your state has their own organic standards; or if they follow stricter state standards like California's instead of the USDA standards.
3) Healthiness: Milk is a good source of protein, and if you drink reduced fat versions it is even better for you. Whole milk is 3.25% fat content, so while people say-- "Yes, but it has more saturated fat than two strips of bacon"; it is not a large amount. I personally think the issue is overeating. Our parents and grandparents grew up drinking whole milk when the obesity issue was nil. If you're drink a glass of whole milk and eating a sleeve of Oreo's or Chips Ahoy!. I think your issue is the cookies not the milk. But nowadays, my kid's pediatrician recommends them drinking lower fat milk.
4) Intolerance: People (as a whole) lose their ability to digest lactose at different points. This is dependent on your culture and your diet.
5) Diseases: There have really been no large, double-blind experiments or epidemiological studies of cow milk (be it antibiotic or hormone treated) being linked to cancer or auto-immune diseases. This is not to say, it doesn't; but just simply that no one has yet designed, vetted and executed such a studies. Most 'studies'/'facts' tend to be of the Kevin Trudeau ilk. There are some studies by reputable universities suggesting that eating red meat may have some links with certain kind of cancers-- but more study is needed.
6) Safety: Every dairy has a laboratory that tests for the quality and safety of milk. Testing includes: flavor, freezing point, %fat/%protein/%solids, presence of antibiotics, aerobic plate count, coliform plate count -- that's just for the tankers coming in to be processed. Tankers can be rejected for antibiotics and taste. All those tests (except antibiotics) are performed from line pulls usually occurring every hour. Additionally, on the final product, a shelf-life test is performed. Pulled product is stored cold and tested again at expy-date for bacteria and most of the other quality tests.
Personally, I drink cow's milk. I also like soy and rice milk as well. I especially enjoy almond milk.
Ah the voice of reason, backed up by knowledge, a joy to read, thank you.:flowerforyou:0 -
Milk is very dangerous for you.
A carton of milk once attacked me with a baseball bat. I had to defend myself with a packet of chocolate chip cookies. True story.
just throw cats at it, no need to waste cookies.
Dont forget, the cats MUST have a thigh gap
Oh but they do!0 -
I don't drink it.
The work of Ganmaa Davaasambuu's team at Harvard is worth a look. It compares the levels of estrogen and progesterone in industrially produced cow milk with that of cow milk in herding societies in Mongolia.
Even without rBGH, when the animals are kept pregnant and milked almost every day of the year, the risks change. The estrogen and progesterone in the milk of a pregnant cow is hundreds of times higher than the milk of a non-pregnant cow.0 -
If the question is, is milk safe? That answer is yes.
If the question is, should we drink milk because it's 'healthy' or does milk have any detrimental effects? That's a whole other ball park.
I have experience in this because I used to test milk in a dairy for several years.
I'll run through some issues...
1) Antibiotics: They are usually given to steers to help growth and proactively guard against unsanitary conditions. Dairy cows only get antibiotics when they develop mastitis (infection/inflammation) of the udders. They usually are taken off the runs for a period of two weeks. All dairies test for antibiotics when a milk tanker comes in to be processed. If antibiotics are detected the whole tanker, unless it is a split with whole and skim, is rejected. You can be reasonably sure your milk is antibiotic free.
2) Hormones: They are also used the same as antibiotics for steers. Dairy cows could get this for the same reason. But most dairies have their farmer's pledge not use them. Milk cows are way more valuable than steers, so the short term gain probably is not worth it. Complicating the matter is that it is prohibitively expensive to test every run/tanker/cow for hormones. So your milk being free from hormones is as good as the farmer's making the pledge. You might be better drinking organic certified milk, if your state has their own organic standards; or if they follow stricter state standards like California's instead of the USDA standards.
3) Healthiness: Milk is a good source of protein, and if you drink reduced fat versions it is even better for you. Whole milk is 3.25% fat content, so while people say-- "Yes, but it has more saturated fat than two strips of bacon"; it is not a large amount. I personally think the issue is overeating. Our parents and grandparents grew up drinking whole milk when the obesity issue was nil. If you're drink a glass of whole milk and eating a sleeve of Oreo's or Chips Ahoy!. I think your issue is the cookies not the milk. But nowadays, my kid's pediatrician recommends them drinking lower fat milk.
4) Intolerance: People (as a whole) lose their ability to digest lactose at different points. This is dependent on your culture and your diet.
5) Diseases: There have really been no large, double-blind experiments or epidemiological studies of cow milk (be it antibiotic or hormone treated) being linked to cancer or auto-immune diseases. This is not to say, it doesn't; but just simply that no one has yet designed, vetted and executed such a studies. Most 'studies'/'facts' tend to be of the Kevin Trudeau ilk. There are some studies by reputable universities suggesting that eating red meat may have some links with certain kind of cancers-- but more study is needed.
6) Safety: Every dairy has a laboratory that tests for the quality and safety of milk. Testing includes: flavor, freezing point, %fat/%protein/%solids, presence of antibiotics, aerobic plate count, coliform plate count -- that's just for the tankers coming in to be processed. Tankers can be rejected for antibiotics and taste. All those tests (except antibiotics) are performed from line pulls usually occurring every hour. Additionally, on the final product, a shelf-life test is performed. Pulled product is stored cold and tested again at expy-date for bacteria and most of the other quality tests.
Personally, I drink cow's milk. I also like soy and rice milk as well. I especially enjoy almond milk.
Wow...great information. Thank you.0 -
Milk is very dangerous for you.
A carton of milk once attacked me with a baseball bat. I had to defend myself with a packet of chocolate chip cookies. True story.
just throw cats at it, no need to waste cookies.
Dont forget, the cats MUST have a thigh gap
Oh but they do!
Ok then... carry on
They do make good weapons in all honesty, I remember chucking one at my brother in the middle of a fight... I won0 -
"Humans are the only species that drink another species milk"
Humans are also the only species to use computers, drive cars, talk, grow crops etc.
Also, since we started eating things like wheat and dairy our life expectancy has gone up, not down.0 -
I don't drink it.
The work of Ganmaa Davaasambuu's team at Harvard is worth a look. It compares the levels of estrogen and progesterone in industrially produced cow milk with that of cow milk in herding societies in Mongolia.
Even without rBGH, when the animals are kept pregnant and milked almost every day of the year, the risks change. The estrogen and progesterone in the milk of a pregnant cow is hundreds of times higher than the milk of a non-pregnant cow.
Interesting work. However, from what I can tell there is some correlation but this is admitted to be circumstantial. The actual risks noted from studies were on rats. Also, the studies on the correlation show a possible correlation with full fat milk and none with skim.0 -
Live how you'd like, food doesn't scare me.
then why are you on MFP? just curious.
My FITNESS pal?
So, MFP is only for people who are scared of food? :huh:
Ohhhhhh.....no. You REALLY don't want to get into it with me...sorry, but you don't.
I'm not trying to get into anything, just to understand the post. This wasn't directed at you anyway. It was directed at GreyEyes21. Try reading it again.
And for the record, I'm not scared of food either. Neither am I afraid of someone with such a dire internet warning such as yours. Also, I have re-quoted you *twice* in this thread, agreeing with you. You should be careful before jumping to conclusions.0
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