Sexual Orientation Changed Through Reparative Therapy?
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I just have to mention a couple things here.
1 - This is a heck of a subject to start reading at 7 in the morning....sheesh!
2 - Can you choose your orientation? Well...I'm going to toss a couple comments into the mix on this question.
* In some cases yes. Notice that I said SOME... The single case I can use for an example is marriage (Civil union if you want...but means the same thing to me). If a person is bi-sexual, when (if) they marry, they have effectively chosen their sexual orientation. If and/or when they get divorced...well, I would have to ask a bisexual that was married, then got divorced to see if their views changed. Anyone posting that falls into that heading? I would like to hear your opinion on this example.
* I am not going to weigh in on the subject of genetics vs choice, but for both sides of the argument, do you think this extends beyond the Hetero / Homo discussion?
Is it genetic to be more attracted to Blondes or Redheads...especially Redheads with bright green eyes. :blushing:
:smooched:
What about the attractions (Devil's Advocate here) that are almost universally reviled. Attraction to small children or to animals Is it genetic, or is it choice? I am not even beginning to say I condone either of those things, but if you believe that Homo vs Hetero is genetics only and therapy is just destructive, couldn't the same arguments be made for these people as well?0 -
And Jesus sayeth unto them, "unless thy neighbor is gay."
GTFO.
It is possible to disapprove of a way of living and oppose certain worldviews while genuinely caring about a person and their well-being.
You're absolutely right. I disapprove of my obese friend overeating fast food and staying inactive, just like I disapprove of much of my family smoking.
The key here is that the things I disapprove of, their way of living? It's harmful.
Funny how the only thing that says homosexuality is "harmful" is a vague and not universally interpreted few verses in a multiple millenia year old book.0 -
And Jesus sayeth unto them, "unless thy neighbor is gay."
GTFO.
It is possible to disapprove of a way of living and oppose certain worldviews while genuinely caring about a person and their well-being.
Indeed. I disapprove of your religious views, but I wouldn't wish ill upon you.
YES! Which is why I don't discuss religion or politics with any of my friends. We don't agree, simple as that. But we still love each other.
There is a difference between whether or not you believe gayness is a moral issue (which can be held dear and private... even if your belief hurts my feelings), and whether you believe that gayness is a reason to deprive someone of basic rights to life, employment, housing, and so on. To not discuss politcal views with friends because you "disagree but love each other" I often feel as an attempt to say "I am voting for xyz politician, who would literally take away your right to live, access housing, employment, or visit your children or spouse in the hospital. But I don't want to talk about it, as it's my private belief. We need to just ' agree to disagree' "
Please understand that private beliefs and choices have very broad consequences. Consequences that affect millions. Asking those hurt by your political views, activities or vote to remain silent or to not discuss them allows you to believe (and choose/vote accordingly) without challenging you. For those without equality, it is akin to a slow, hurtful suicide. To me, that is not love.0 -
And Jesus sayeth unto them, "unless thy neighbor is gay."
GTFO.
It is possible to disapprove of a way of living and oppose certain worldviews while genuinely caring about a person and their well-being.
You're absolutely right. I disapprove of my obese friend overeating fast food and staying inactive, just like I disapprove of much of my family smoking.
The key here is that the things I disapprove of, their way of living? It's harmful.
Funny how the only thing that says homosexuality is "harmful" is a vague and not universally interpreted few verses in a multiple millenia year old book.
I may not be understanding what you're saying, in all sincerity, but the way that I am reading it makes me wonder if the obese person you described above does not have a "lifestyle" of overeating fast food and inactivity, and that is in fact harmful. While I'm not arguing the point of whether being gay is a lifestyle choice or something you're born as, I think what you described above IS a lifestyle choice, so I'm not sure it's comparable to what the person you quoted said. Like I said, I may just not be understanding...0 -
I just have to mention a couple things here.
1 - This is a heck of a subject to start reading at 7 in the morning....sheesh!
2 - Can you choose your orientation? Well...I'm going to toss a couple comments into the mix on this question.
* In some cases yes. Notice that I said SOME... The single case I can use for an example is marriage (Civil union if you want...but means the same thing to me). If a person is bi-sexual, when (if) they marry, they have effectively chosen their sexual orientation. If and/or when they get divorced...well, I would have to ask a bisexual that was married, then got divorced to see if their views changed. Anyone posting that falls into that heading? I would like to hear your opinion on this example.
* I am not going to weigh in on the subject of genetics vs choice, but for both sides of the argument, do you think this extends beyond the Hetero / Homo discussion?
Is it genetic to be more attracted to Blondes or Redheads...especially Redheads with bright green eyes. :blushing: :smooched:
What about the attractions (Devil's Advocate here) that are almost universally reviled. Attraction to small children or to animals Is it genetic, or is it choice? I am not even beginning to say I condone either of those things, but if you believe that Homo vs Hetero is genetics only and therapy is just destructive, couldn't the same arguments be made for these people as well?
You're misunderstanding "orientation." You can still be attracted to both men and women as a bisexual if you choose to be married to a man or woman. The choice is in the partner; the orientation is in the unchosen orientation.
As for the bestiality and pedophilia argument... this isn't going to be a popular comment, but there's quite a bit of research on those being orientations rather than choices. The issue is that their orientations involve the lack of consent of other being (although bestiality consent gets tricky and squicky, imo, if you start really looking into it). There's quite a few people who are admitted pedophiles who go to therapy, but choose to live a non-pedophilic life. Why? Because pedophilia causes harm; a homosexual, who would have gone through the same process of "therapy" that this whole thread is about, hasn't been considered either harmful or a disease in decades.
It's the "nature vs. nurture" aspect again on if people are affected by anything more to sway them to those sorts of orientations, although often "nature vs. nurture" arguments tend to end up in the conclusion "bit of both." I'd venture to say that pedophilia and bestiality are rooted much more in exchanges of power than a gay, straight, bi, or pansexual orientation, though (same thing with rape being more about power than sex).
Anyway, you seem attracted to people who look like Lily Potter, so I will jump to the conclusion that you are Severus Snape.0 -
And Jesus sayeth unto them, "unless thy neighbor is gay."
GTFO.
It is possible to disapprove of a way of living and oppose certain worldviews while genuinely caring about a person and their well-being.
You're absolutely right. I disapprove of my obese friend overeating fast food and staying inactive, just like I disapprove of much of my family smoking.
The key here is that the things I disapprove of, their way of living? It's harmful.
Funny how the only thing that says homosexuality is "harmful" is a vague and not universally interpreted few verses in a multiple millenia year old book.
I may not be understanding what you're saying, in all sincerity, but the way that I am reading it makes me wonder if the obese person you described above does not have a "lifestyle" of overeating fast food and inactivity, and that is in fact harmful. While I'm not arguing the point of whether being gay is a lifestyle choice or something you're born as, I think what you described above IS a lifestyle choice, so I'm not sure it's comparable to what the person you quoted said. Like I said, I may just not be understanding...
I think you're understanding me, but not getting my intent. The person DOES view homosexuality as a lifestyle choice (which I've stated earlier in this thread isn't an accurate assessment of homosexuality). So I leveled with that person on what ARE lifestyle choices, why I disapprove yet still care about those people, and showing that such things are harmful... versus homosexuality, if she still decides to view it as a "lifestyle," even then, homosexuality is not harmful.0 -
Why can't people just let others live their lives the way they want to? As long as people aren't hurting others and it's between consenting adults, does it really matter who's with who and what gender they are? Love is love, after all, and that's better than no love because you're following someone else's arbitrary rules.0
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Why would any choose something they'd be treacly very negatively for? To me it does not seem logical that it involves choice.0
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:flowerforyou:I am gay. I was raised in a VERY conservative, Christian household, and everything about my environment, upbringing, and socialization taught me that it was a choice, and that it was wrong. I denied being gay for a few years (I just had a lot of "girl crushes"), but eventually I just knew that it was what it was and I couldn't change it. When I came out in my late teens, everyone thought I was just rebelling and would go back to 'normal' with time.
Didn't happen. I am queer and I am happy and I look forward to being a lifelong homo. :P
As an aside, I get what people mean when they say that no one would CHOOSE to be gay, but it still makes me sad. I don't want queerness to be a sad thing for anyone. I don't think there's anything more beautiful than living your truth and I hate that so many people feel that they are in between self-loathing in the closet and hatred from others when they come out. I LOVE being gay. I LOVE IT. Given the opportunity, I would not choose to be straight. I'd much rather change our bigoted, heterocentric society than change myself.0 -
On a thread related note: Why are so many people so hell bend on dictacting how others have to live their life? Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could just accept and love people (male and female) for who they are instead of what they are? There is still this little naive bit of me left that hopes one day we will *draping flowers into her hair and dancing into the sunset* :-) Peace out.
*hands you a flower for your hair*:flowerforyou:0 -
Right. So my cousin decided to become gay while growing up in a conservative and VERY small farming town in the midwest. And my friend who was raised in an ultra xtian home did too. For kicks. Because being a social pariah and being disowned from your family is fun.
QUICK! Get them in therapy and degayafy them, stat! YOU'RE GOING TO GET IN YOUR SOCIAL, HETRERONORMATIVE BOX AND LIKE IT.
Luckily, my friend wasn't disowned for more than a few years. He used to get long, handwritten letters from his mother equally condemning him to hell and telling him she loved and missed him before that happened. My cousin became a teacher and lived in the same community without issue and was respected. She even brought her GF home. What stung for me (in one of the ways) was after she died (she had cancer) my family didn't get why her GF was in her will. Oh, "and that woman is going with ANOTHER woman now! I thought she'd give it up after {my cousin} died..."
To quote my friend when we were in college: "why the f--k would I choose this??"
(ETA- my friend's quote was in response to him mother accusing him of choosing sin over family 12 years ago)0 -
I just have to mention a couple things here.
1 - This is a heck of a subject to start reading at 7 in the morning....sheesh!
2 - Can you choose your orientation? Well...I'm going to toss a couple comments into the mix on this question.
* In some cases yes. Notice that I said SOME... The single case I can use for an example is marriage (Civil union if you want...but means the same thing to me). If a person is bi-sexual, when (if) they marry, they have effectively chosen their sexual orientation. If and/or when they get divorced...well, I would have to ask a bisexual that was married, then got divorced to see if their views changed. Anyone posting that falls into that heading? I would like to hear your opinion on this example.
* I am not going to weigh in on the subject of genetics vs choice, but for both sides of the argument, do you think this extends beyond the Hetero / Homo discussion?
Is it genetic to be more attracted to Blondes or Redheads...especially Redheads with bright green eyes. :blushing: :smooched:
What about the attractions (Devil's Advocate here) that are almost universally reviled. Attraction to small children or to animals Is it genetic, or is it choice? I am not even beginning to say I condone either of those things, but if you believe that Homo vs Hetero is genetics only and therapy is just destructive, couldn't the same arguments be made for these people as well?
You're misunderstanding "orientation." You can still be attracted to both men and women as a bisexual if you choose to be married to a man or woman. The choice is in the partner; the orientation is in the unchosen orientation.
As for the bestiality and pedophilia argument... this isn't going to be a popular comment, but there's quite a bit of research on those being orientations rather than choices. The issue is that their orientations involve the lack of consent of other being (although bestiality consent gets tricky and squicky, imo, if you start really looking into it). There's quite a few people who are admitted pedophiles who go to therapy, but choose to live a non-pedophilic life. Why? Because pedophilia causes harm; a homosexual, who would have gone through the same process of "therapy" that this whole thread is about, hasn't been considered either harmful or a disease in decades.
It's the "nature vs. nurture" aspect again on if people are affected by anything more to sway them to those sorts of orientations, although often "nature vs. nurture" arguments tend to end up in the conclusion "bit of both." I'd venture to say that pedophilia and bestiality are rooted much more in exchanges of power than a gay, straight, bi, or pansexual orientation, though (same thing with rape being more about power than sex).
Anyway, you seem attracted to people who look like Lily Potter, so I will jump to the conclusion that you are Severus Snape.
I always believed Severus wasn't evil, he was just an A-Hole. At the end, you find out that he was a bitter, jealous A-Hole. Don't blame him though, I woulda Nom'ed Lily up.
Yeah, I know the Pedo / Beast comment isn't going to be popular, but as I said, I was playing the Devil's Advocate there and will continue to do so with this - The Child is not consenting and because of the age of those victims I will NEVER believe that they are. I do firmly believe that Pedophilia is wrong because of the harm it causes. My comment is not to say whether I believe it is right or wrong, but for the adult ---- is the attraction itself genetic or choice? Not the act...but the attraction alone.0 -
You are so joking, it certainly does stop same sex couples holding hands for fear of attack or horrified parents who fear the children who aren't told the truth and who are taught everything in "heterosexual" will be damaged for life or even worse, be gay!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'l feel there is equality when my daughter and her civil partner can walk hand in hand as my husband and I do; heterosexuals indeed dominate and equality is far away.
Sorry that doesn't cut it. Nothing is stopping you from holding the hand of your loved one while walking on the street.Speaking of flaunting, what's with the pride parades? I never saw a hetero pride parade.
Every day is a straight pride parade. Heterosexual people dominate every single aspect of our society and are allowed and encouraged to exhibit pride in their orientation by things as simple as holding hands with their significant other in public without a second thought.0 -
wow...
when I said "flaunting it" I was referring to the guys who wear extravagant make up...sashay when they walk...that is flaunting. holding hands etc is not what I meant
You mean like how some straight guys are all into the whole swag thing and wearing their shirt unbuttoned with the gold chains, or wearing enough cologne to choke a person 50 feet away. This is ok? NOT!
Some people feel the need to flaunt themselves, some don't, it has nothing to do with their sexual orientation and it is equally unattractive on either sexuality.0 -
"Therapy" suggests a malfunction, something that needs corrected.
Sexual orientation does not need to be corrected. Anything claiming it can do so is just a shaming tactic designed to shove obvious behaviors under the rug.
Funny. This is the same argument used by NAMBLA and other pedophile organizations.
I doubt very much that the "tolerant" crowd would tolerate a pervert seducing their children in the name of being tolerant of other people's sexual orientation.
What the?!?!
To the person that says Nambla is funny. Please think before you say such thoughtless, hurtful things about actual real traumatic, life altering experiences that actual people have been through. I'm speaking now as a survivor of sex abuse and I speak for myself and no one else (because I do not want to get into arguments about what I went through as it was extremely traumatic for me and it was rape and I was not in a consensual relationship with my step father when I was a young child). It is absolutely not the same thing as two consenting people that are of the age of consent being in a loving relationship or even just having sex. If you can not understand that, you are a sick person with a screw loose. That is not the same thing as an older adult in a position of power (usually in some type of parenting role) manipulating, abusing and raping children. I'm not even going to explain this. It is beyond absurd that a person could not get that and would even start it out by calling it funny. You need help. Anyone that equates those things needs help.
First of sorry about your past. Now second your reading comprehension is kind of off. I am pretty sure by funny they meant ironic that Nambla uses the same argument. Even though they are pedophiles. That is there sexual orientation. Is it wrong? I believe so absolutely. I also believe homosexuality is wrong but I am tolerant of it. On topic though I don't think anyone is born gay. I think social influence and other outside factors help shape a persons sexual orientation.
There is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. Anyone that equates these things is extremely ignorant and in need of some serious education. Rape is not the same thing as consensual sex. Raping a child is not the same thing as two consenting people that are at the age of consent having a consensual relationship. It is not the same thing.
The ridiculous thing is that people that say this are inadvertently supporting Nambla and the pedophiles that argue it this way to defend the fact that they rape children. How can you not see that?0 -
First of sorry about your past. Now second your reading comprehension is kind of off. I am pretty sure by funny they meant ironic that Nambla uses the same argument. Even though they are pedophiles. That is there sexual orientation. Is it wrong? I believe so absolutely. I also believe homosexuality is wrong but I am tolerant of it. On topic though I don't think anyone is born gay. I think social influence and other outside factors help shape a persons sexual orientation.
I'm curious why you think it's wrong.0 -
(edit: just, nevermind.)0
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This is from a CNN article about the lawsuit and the therapy.
The lawsuit described what happened in one of those sessions in October 2008 with Levin, who was 18 at the time.
"Downing initiated a discussion about Levin's body and instructed Levin to stand in front of a full-length mirror and hold a staff," the suit said. "Downing directed Levin to say one negative thing about himself, remove an article of clothing, then repeat the process. Although Levin protested and expressed discomfort, at Downing's insistence, Levin submitted and continued until he was fully naked. Downing then instructed Levin to touch his penis and then his buttocks. Levin, unsure what to do but trusting in and relying on Downing, followed the instructions, upon which Downing said 'good' and the session ended."
I don't know about you but to me this sounds a lot more like abuse than anything resembling legitimate therapy.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/29/us/conversion-therapy-response/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+rss/cnn_latest+(RSS:+Most+Recent)0 -
I am surprised this post is not locked. It just promotes Heterosexism, Homophobia, and Hate. This is not a fun topic it is out right bigotry.0
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Yup. Those straight people and their weird lifestyle choice. I really can't understand how they live that way either. I'm tolerant of them because some of my best friends are straight, and they seem like nice enough folks. Still. I pity them because they were obviously influenced by the straight culture that surrounds them.
^^^
This :drinker:0
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