Sexual Orientation Changed Through Reparative Therapy?
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Right. So my cousin decided to become gay while growing up in a conservative and VERY small farming town in the midwest. And my friend who was raised in an ultra xtian home did too. For kicks. Because being a social pariah and being disowned from your family is fun.
QUICK! Get them in therapy and degayafy them, stat! YOU'RE GOING TO GET IN YOUR SOCIAL, HETRERONORMATIVE BOX AND LIKE IT.
Luckily, my friend wasn't disowned for more than a few years. He used to get long, handwritten letters from his mother equally condemning him to hell and telling him she loved and missed him before that happened. My cousin became a teacher and lived in the same community without issue and was respected. She even brought her GF home. What stung for me (in one of the ways) was after she died (she had cancer) my family didn't get why her GF was in her will. Oh, "and that woman is going with ANOTHER woman now! I thought she'd give it up after {my cousin} died..."
To quote my friend when we were in college: "why the f--k would I choose this??"
(ETA- my friend's quote was in response to him mother accusing him of choosing sin over family 12 years ago)0 -
I just have to mention a couple things here.
1 - This is a heck of a subject to start reading at 7 in the morning....sheesh!
2 - Can you choose your orientation? Well...I'm going to toss a couple comments into the mix on this question.
* In some cases yes. Notice that I said SOME... The single case I can use for an example is marriage (Civil union if you want...but means the same thing to me). If a person is bi-sexual, when (if) they marry, they have effectively chosen their sexual orientation. If and/or when they get divorced...well, I would have to ask a bisexual that was married, then got divorced to see if their views changed. Anyone posting that falls into that heading? I would like to hear your opinion on this example.
* I am not going to weigh in on the subject of genetics vs choice, but for both sides of the argument, do you think this extends beyond the Hetero / Homo discussion?
Is it genetic to be more attracted to Blondes or Redheads...especially Redheads with bright green eyes. :blushing:
:smooched:
What about the attractions (Devil's Advocate here) that are almost universally reviled. Attraction to small children or to animals Is it genetic, or is it choice? I am not even beginning to say I condone either of those things, but if you believe that Homo vs Hetero is genetics only and therapy is just destructive, couldn't the same arguments be made for these people as well?
You're misunderstanding "orientation." You can still be attracted to both men and women as a bisexual if you choose to be married to a man or woman. The choice is in the partner; the orientation is in the unchosen orientation.
As for the bestiality and pedophilia argument... this isn't going to be a popular comment, but there's quite a bit of research on those being orientations rather than choices. The issue is that their orientations involve the lack of consent of other being (although bestiality consent gets tricky and squicky, imo, if you start really looking into it). There's quite a few people who are admitted pedophiles who go to therapy, but choose to live a non-pedophilic life. Why? Because pedophilia causes harm; a homosexual, who would have gone through the same process of "therapy" that this whole thread is about, hasn't been considered either harmful or a disease in decades.
It's the "nature vs. nurture" aspect again on if people are affected by anything more to sway them to those sorts of orientations, although often "nature vs. nurture" arguments tend to end up in the conclusion "bit of both." I'd venture to say that pedophilia and bestiality are rooted much more in exchanges of power than a gay, straight, bi, or pansexual orientation, though (same thing with rape being more about power than sex).
Anyway, you seem attracted to people who look like Lily Potter, so I will jump to the conclusion that you are Severus Snape.
I always believed Severus wasn't evil, he was just an A-Hole. At the end, you find out that he was a bitter, jealous A-Hole. Don't blame him though, I woulda Nom'ed Lily up.
Yeah, I know the Pedo / Beast comment isn't going to be popular, but as I said, I was playing the Devil's Advocate there and will continue to do so with this - The Child is not consenting and because of the age of those victims I will NEVER believe that they are. I do firmly believe that Pedophilia is wrong because of the harm it causes. My comment is not to say whether I believe it is right or wrong, but for the adult ---- is the attraction itself genetic or choice? Not the act...but the attraction alone.0 -
You are so joking, it certainly does stop same sex couples holding hands for fear of attack or horrified parents who fear the children who aren't told the truth and who are taught everything in "heterosexual" will be damaged for life or even worse, be gay!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'l feel there is equality when my daughter and her civil partner can walk hand in hand as my husband and I do; heterosexuals indeed dominate and equality is far away.
Sorry that doesn't cut it. Nothing is stopping you from holding the hand of your loved one while walking on the street.Speaking of flaunting, what's with the pride parades? I never saw a hetero pride parade.
Every day is a straight pride parade. Heterosexual people dominate every single aspect of our society and are allowed and encouraged to exhibit pride in their orientation by things as simple as holding hands with their significant other in public without a second thought.0 -
wow...
when I said "flaunting it" I was referring to the guys who wear extravagant make up...sashay when they walk...that is flaunting. holding hands etc is not what I meant
You mean like how some straight guys are all into the whole swag thing and wearing their shirt unbuttoned with the gold chains, or wearing enough cologne to choke a person 50 feet away. This is ok? NOT!
Some people feel the need to flaunt themselves, some don't, it has nothing to do with their sexual orientation and it is equally unattractive on either sexuality.0 -
"Therapy" suggests a malfunction, something that needs corrected.
Sexual orientation does not need to be corrected. Anything claiming it can do so is just a shaming tactic designed to shove obvious behaviors under the rug.
Funny. This is the same argument used by NAMBLA and other pedophile organizations.
I doubt very much that the "tolerant" crowd would tolerate a pervert seducing their children in the name of being tolerant of other people's sexual orientation.
What the?!?!
To the person that says Nambla is funny. Please think before you say such thoughtless, hurtful things about actual real traumatic, life altering experiences that actual people have been through. I'm speaking now as a survivor of sex abuse and I speak for myself and no one else (because I do not want to get into arguments about what I went through as it was extremely traumatic for me and it was rape and I was not in a consensual relationship with my step father when I was a young child). It is absolutely not the same thing as two consenting people that are of the age of consent being in a loving relationship or even just having sex. If you can not understand that, you are a sick person with a screw loose. That is not the same thing as an older adult in a position of power (usually in some type of parenting role) manipulating, abusing and raping children. I'm not even going to explain this. It is beyond absurd that a person could not get that and would even start it out by calling it funny. You need help. Anyone that equates those things needs help.
First of sorry about your past. Now second your reading comprehension is kind of off. I am pretty sure by funny they meant ironic that Nambla uses the same argument. Even though they are pedophiles. That is there sexual orientation. Is it wrong? I believe so absolutely. I also believe homosexuality is wrong but I am tolerant of it. On topic though I don't think anyone is born gay. I think social influence and other outside factors help shape a persons sexual orientation.
There is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. Anyone that equates these things is extremely ignorant and in need of some serious education. Rape is not the same thing as consensual sex. Raping a child is not the same thing as two consenting people that are at the age of consent having a consensual relationship. It is not the same thing.
The ridiculous thing is that people that say this are inadvertently supporting Nambla and the pedophiles that argue it this way to defend the fact that they rape children. How can you not see that?0 -
First of sorry about your past. Now second your reading comprehension is kind of off. I am pretty sure by funny they meant ironic that Nambla uses the same argument. Even though they are pedophiles. That is there sexual orientation. Is it wrong? I believe so absolutely. I also believe homosexuality is wrong but I am tolerant of it. On topic though I don't think anyone is born gay. I think social influence and other outside factors help shape a persons sexual orientation.
I'm curious why you think it's wrong.0 -
(edit: just, nevermind.)0
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This is from a CNN article about the lawsuit and the therapy.
The lawsuit described what happened in one of those sessions in October 2008 with Levin, who was 18 at the time.
"Downing initiated a discussion about Levin's body and instructed Levin to stand in front of a full-length mirror and hold a staff," the suit said. "Downing directed Levin to say one negative thing about himself, remove an article of clothing, then repeat the process. Although Levin protested and expressed discomfort, at Downing's insistence, Levin submitted and continued until he was fully naked. Downing then instructed Levin to touch his penis and then his buttocks. Levin, unsure what to do but trusting in and relying on Downing, followed the instructions, upon which Downing said 'good' and the session ended."
I don't know about you but to me this sounds a lot more like abuse than anything resembling legitimate therapy.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/29/us/conversion-therapy-response/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+rss/cnn_latest+(RSS:+Most+Recent)0 -
I am surprised this post is not locked. It just promotes Heterosexism, Homophobia, and Hate. This is not a fun topic it is out right bigotry.0
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Yup. Those straight people and their weird lifestyle choice. I really can't understand how they live that way either. I'm tolerant of them because some of my best friends are straight, and they seem like nice enough folks. Still. I pity them because they were obviously influenced by the straight culture that surrounds them.
^^^
This :drinker:0 -
:huh:0
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I am surprised this post is not locked. It just promotes Heterosexism, Homophobia, and Hate. This is not a fun topic it is out right bigotry.
Yes.0 -
I used to believe it was a choice but now believe that there are factors that lead to it.. while im against the lifestyle I am tolerant and accepting of those who live that way.. the biggest problem I have with these therapies is that it can lead to a lot of pressure for people to change and they may act differently but not really be changed
Yup. Those straight people and their weird lifestyle choice. I really can't understand how they live that way either. I'm tolerant of them because some of my best friends are straight, and they seem like nice enough folks. Still. I pity them because they were obviously influenced by the straight culture that surrounds them.
I love this so hard.0 -
I can speak from the therapy side of things, I'm a clinical social worker and I can verify that in my education we were taught not only that reparative therapy is ineffective, it is also unethical, and if you have a therapist suggest it to you, you should RUN the other way.0
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You are so joking, it certainly does stop same sex couples holding hands for fear of attack or horrified parents who fear the children who aren't told the truth and who are taught everything in "heterosexual" will be damaged for life or even worse, be gay!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'l feel there is equality when my daughter and her civil partner can walk hand in hand as my husband and I do; heterosexuals indeed dominate and equality is far away.
Sorry that doesn't cut it. Nothing is stopping you from holding the hand of your loved one while walking on the street.Speaking of flaunting, what's with the pride parades? I never saw a hetero pride parade.
Every day is a straight pride parade. Heterosexual people dominate every single aspect of our society and are allowed and encouraged to exhibit pride in their orientation by things as simple as holding hands with their significant other in public without a second thought.
Spoken like a true PFLAG mom!
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Therapy equals change. Why does anyone think that just because people live a different lifestyle that they have a malfunction?! What if I said all straight people needed therapy since they go with the norm? Geezum let people live their life without tryingg to change or should I say fix them!
I'm out...peace!!0 -
Few things in life are cut and dry. We're all here because of weight and we know weight isn't "simply" a lifestyle choice. It also isn't all because of your genetics. Some people are born with biological factors (lower leptin, increased ghrelin) that make them more likely to be obese. Some people are obese because mom ordered pizza for supper every night. Homosexuality is likely the same way. Some people are born with tendencies to be gay while others experience trauma (especially at a young age) and deal with it by being gay. I like what the original poster said though, treat everyone with respect, regardless of orientation.0
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This is a tad 'off-topic' but my girlfriend (yes I'm a scary "gay") works at the Vitamin Shoppe and she HATES Dr. Oz soley on the basis of middle-aged soccer moms flocking to the store she works in asking for 'such-and-such' because Dr. Oz said to take it. Blindly following the tv man.
Also, if you aren't gay, bi, transgender, etc (so, if you are straight) you really shouldn't have an opinion on if someone "chooses" to be gay. What do you know about it? It's like me (a white girl) saying I understand the oppression of a black person. I am not black therefore I have no idea what they go through or how they feel.0 -
Woah, some of these posts are just silly. This is not a Straight vs Gay thread
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DeathIsMyGift I understand what you're saying but you can still empathise with people, and try to understand them. That's like saying you have no opinion on heterosexuality? You must!0
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DeathIsMyGift I understand what you're saying but you can still empathise with people, and try to understand them. That's like saying you have no opinion on heterosexuality? You must!
You are correct. I suppose I phrased that wrong. Sure you can have an opinion (everyone does) but don't tell me "Oh I have a friend who is gay so I know how it feels" because, you don't. Empathy is essential but projecting your own opinion or beliefs because you "know someone" who is gay, etc doesn't really mean you understand it.0 -
Few things in life are cut and dry. We're all here because of weight and we know weight isn't "simply" a lifestyle choice. It also isn't all because of your genetics. Some people are born with biological factors (lower leptin, increased ghrelin) that make them more likely to be obese. Some people are obese because mom ordered pizza for supper every night. Homosexuality is likely the same way. Some people are born with tendencies to be gay while others experience trauma (especially at a young age) and deal with it by being gay. I like what the original poster said though, treat everyone with respect, regardless of orientation.
Sigh. This thread's still going, and people still legitimately think abuse "leads" to homosexuality. :sick:0 -
"Therapy" suggests a malfunction, something that needs corrected.
Sexual orientation does not need to be corrected. Anything claiming it can do so is just a shaming tactic designed to shove obvious behaviors under the rug.
this.
As theres nothing wrong with any BGLT whether they be choices by the individual or non choice (eg genetic/ predetermined) why change it??
The only case where i would approve would be if the individual themselfs was unhappy with their orientation and wanted to change for their own happiness (But not if they were being bullied by family/ friends/ religious leaders etc) in that case its the ppl who make them unhappy that need the therapy.0 -
Few things in life are cut and dry. We're all here because of weight and we know weight isn't "simply" a lifestyle choice. It also isn't all because of your genetics. Some people are born with biological factors (lower leptin, increased ghrelin) that make them more likely to be obese. Some people are obese because mom ordered pizza for supper every night. Homosexuality is likely the same way. Some people are born with tendencies to be gay while others experience trauma (especially at a young age) and deal with it by being gay. I like what the original poster said though, treat everyone with respect, regardless of orientation.
Sigh. This thread's still going, and people still legitimately think abuse "leads" to homosexuality. :sick:
I'm not saying it does in all cases , but there is research suggesting that it does in some. everyone is different.0 -
DeathIsMyGift - Yeah very true, I don't like it when people justify their opinions just because they know someone.0
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Few things in life are cut and dry. We're all here because of weight and we know weight isn't "simply" a lifestyle choice. It also isn't all because of your genetics. Some people are born with biological factors (lower leptin, increased ghrelin) that make them more likely to be obese. Some people are obese because mom ordered pizza for supper every night. Homosexuality is likely the same way. Some people are born with tendencies to be gay while others experience trauma (especially at a young age) and deal with it by being gay. I like what the original poster said though, treat everyone with respect, regardless of orientation.
Sigh. This thread's still going, and people still legitimately think abuse "leads" to homosexuality. :sick:
Yeah. Sad that people will believe such dumb stuff without questioning it.
Would a woman who is power-raped by a bearded man think that bearded men are now hot? NO.
People are not gay because they were abused and it is offensive to suggest so as it equates abuse of others against or without their consent with normal sexual attraction between consenting adults.0 -
Few things in life are cut and dry. We're all here because of weight and we know weight isn't "simply" a lifestyle choice. It also isn't all because of your genetics. Some people are born with biological factors (lower leptin, increased ghrelin) that make them more likely to be obese. Some people are obese because mom ordered pizza for supper every night. Homosexuality is likely the same way. Some people are born with tendencies to be gay while others experience trauma (especially at a young age) and deal with it by being gay. I like what the original poster said though, treat everyone with respect, regardless of orientation.
Sigh. This thread's still going, and people still legitimately think abuse "leads" to homosexuality. :sick:
I'm not saying it does in all cases , but there is research suggesting that it does in some. everyone is different.
No. There is no current, valid research finding this... there is very old research that still gets brought up (in the same way people still bring up antiquated research on homosexuality to justify its "danger" or "disease"). Most of this research has not only been disproven, but much of it has been shown to be intentionally biased, skewed, and often involving religion (not very scientific, eh?). And, regardless of the countless valid research showing homosexuality is not caused by abuse, if someone happens to be homosexual, and is also abused by someone of the same sex, that does not mean one caused the other. Correlation does not equal causation, and the correlation between abuse & homosexuality was used in an incredibly biased manner for decades... and clearly it's still sticking in the collective unconscious. I don't know if it's because it makes people feel "better" thinking that homosexuality is caused by something (because that means a "problem" has a "solution," doesn't it?), or what, but no, abuse does not, in any form, cause homosexuality anymore than it causes heterosexuality. A sexual orientation exists, regardless of early sexual experiences. And for one, there's a much higher correlation between sexual abuse and heterosexuality... wonder why no one brings that up? Expressions of sexuality because of abuse is much different than changing fundamental attraction.0 -
I can only speak for myself. I spent the first 30 years of my life trying to pretend I was straight because I was taught by society that homosexuality was wrong. I fought my natural instincts with all my might and only ended up disgusted with myself, depressed, unfulfilled, and hurt a wonderful woman by marrying her when I knew I wasn't straight. Now, I'm out and living with my partner of seven years. If I could have changed my sexuality, it would have happened a long time ago. I didn't choose to be gay, but I have chosen to stop punishing myself because I am. Now I'm finally happy and free.
As for reparative therapy, in my opinion, it only leads to repressed feelings, conflicting emotions, and superficial changes in behavior, and likely deep depression. The only choice a homosexual person has is to be celebate or not. Beyond that, their attractions are not their choice.0 -
There is no correlation between sexual orientation and childhood abuse. If you did a survey of the world you would find that lots of people had been abused (Straight, Gay, Bisexual, Asexual, Male, Female, and every other combination of sexual orientation and/or gender identity and/or gender configuration and expression and chromosomal presentation).
People that were actually abused need support.
It is wrong (on so many levels and in so many ways) to tell people they must have been abused when they were not.0 -
I used to believe it was a choice but now believe that there are factors that lead to it.. while im against the lifestyle I am tolerant and accepting of those who live that way.. the biggest problem I have with these therapies is that it can lead to a lot of pressure for people to change and they may act differently but not really be changed
Yup. Those straight people and their weird lifestyle choice. I really can't understand how they live that way either. I'm tolerant of them because some of my best friends are straight, and they seem like nice enough folks. Still. I pity them because they were obviously influenced by the straight culture that surrounds them.
^^WIN!0
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