Sexual Orientation Changed Through Reparative Therapy?
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And by the way, everyone who is posting that they might disagree with the 'lifestyle' but they are 'tolerant' and believe that those misguided gays still deserve respect...? Do you want a cookie? Congrats on being an almost-decent-but-not-quite person.0
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I wish I was a lesbian.0
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i like carrots, but i don't like brussel sprouts. Do I need therapy too?0
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i like carrots, but i don't like brussel sprouts. Do I need therapy too?
Most definitely, how can you be so discriminating against the poor sprouts! It is not their fault that they flaunt their green, healthy cabbaginess in the face of the carrots at every xmas!0 -
So by this way of thinking, are bi people half way done with therapy, or influenced by too many people? Plus, who cares as long as people are happy? We should get along because we are humans, not because we are tolerant.0
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I believe it's a combination of genetics, choice, and upbringing.
That being said, I believe someone can change their orientation if they WANT to, but why would they want to if they like what they like? That therapy crap is about forcing a change, which will obviously never work.
So, you choose your orientation?0 -
Dr. Oz has had too much red raspberry ketone.
^This0 -
I'm happy to see tolerance on the forum. I appreciate that some people do not agree with a lifestyle choice, but are willing to publicly state they accept homosexuality as something that just is. I am no expert, and haven't formally studied the issue, and there are smarter people on here than me (and Dr. Oz) that could probably discuss this issue better. My attitude toward being gay has evolved somewhat over the years, but I've never been able to make sense of the notion that someone could *choose* their sexual identity.
I think the idea of "reparative therapy" is fear and shame-based. The name alone implies something is "broken" and needs repairing. I think there are people who may be gay but live a straight lifestyle because they are surrounded by intolerance and ignorance, or maybe simply scared of their own truth. In my opinion, that's what needs repairing. I can't imagine denying something so fundamental about who you are and trying to live a life against that.
Sir, you seem extremely intelligent to me! Very well said :happy:0 -
It has never been scientifically proven that you are "born gay". There are no gay genetics.
You are just born.
I believe that everyone has same-sex attractions. Some people deny them and move forward towards opposite sex attractions right away and some people don't.
That's what I think.
I also believe that reparative therapy can help some people. While there are people who feel shamed into "turning straight", I also believe that there are people who feel shame in "playing gay". I know a lot of people are saying that they don't choose to be gay and no one really does because of the drama and hardships that they will face. But there are also those people who may have "come out of the closet" at an early age, and later on want to change. If they want to make that change, why shouldn't they? And why should they feel shame in wanting that?
Don't we all have the Constitutional right to pursue happiness? If one is happy remaining gay, then thats wonderful. But if one is unhappy and wishes to make a lifestyle change and move towards "straight-ville", why should they feel shame in that?
I really think the fear and shaming goes both ways...0 -
i like carrots, but i don't like brussel sprouts. Do I need therapy too?
Hey! Sprouts are veggies too!
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Oh my goodness i've just read on and realised that the post I picked up on is the tip of the iceberg.....It really is astonishing how stupid and judgemental some people are.....It honestly beggars belief. I love reading how people are telling us they are going to be tolerant of gay people like they are doing them a favour...IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!!!!
Eurgh people really make me sick.
This. WTF am I looking at right now, I really am astonished some people still think this way.0 -
i like carrots, but i don't like brussel sprouts. Do I need therapy too?
Hey! Sprouts are veggies too!
maybe, but they're like, TOTALLY inferior. Quick, someone find me a quote in the bible about how terrible sprouts are!0 -
Oh my goodness i've just read on and realised that the post I picked up on is the tip of the iceberg.....It really is astonishing how stupid and judgemental some people are.....It honestly beggars belief. I love reading how people are telling us they are going to be tolerant of gay people like they are doing them a favour...IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!!!!
Eurgh people really make me sick.
It became my business when I was stuck in traffic because of that pride parade!0 -
anyone read "A Clockwork Orange"?0
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I'm straight but have many gay friends. I believe you are born that way. You are denying your true self if you try to repress who you are really are. Being gay is not an illness....it is not a sickness....it is not something that can be cured....it is part of who you are as a person. It does not define you exclusively....it is just part of the person that you are. Reparative therapy is dangerous and destructive and would actually consider it a form of torture. Be proud of who you are....whether you are straight or gay. :flowerforyou:0
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It has never been scientifically proven that you are "born gay". There are no gay genetics.
You are just born.
I believe that everyone has same-sex attractions. Some people deny them and move forward towards opposite sex attractions right away and some people don't.
That's what I think.
I also believe that reparative therapy can help some people. While there are people who feel shamed into "turning straight", I also believe that there are people who feel shame in "playing gay". I know a lot of people are saying that they don't choose to be gay and no one really does because of the drama and hardships that they will face. But there are also those people who may have "come out of the closet" at an early age, and later on want to change. If they want to make that change, why shouldn't they? And why should they feel shame in wanting that?
Don't we all have the Constitutional right to pursue happiness? If one is happy remaining gay, then thats wonderful. But if one is unhappy and wishes to make a lifestyle change and move towards "straight-ville", why should they feel shame in that?
I really think the fear and shaming goes both ways...
This right here is full of wisdom.
I don't think therapy is going to change whether a person *is* gay or not though. In the end you are what you are and think what you think.0 -
I think we all end up somewhere on a spectrum of totally straight to totally gay with some of us landing square in the middle, some leaning one way or the other only mildly etc... I do believe our social experiences and pressures lead us more in one direction or another though.
This^^ I had a psyc professor who was a MD/PhD espouse the philosophy that sexuality is NOT a bimodal event (gay or straight) but a single bell curve with gay and straight anchors. The reason that more people aren't bisexual or bicurious relates to culture and upbringing creating an artifical bimodal event.0 -
Brilliant answer and says it all.I used to believe it was a choice but now believe that there are factors that lead to it.. while im against the lifestyle I am tolerant and accepting of those who live that way.. the biggest problem I have with these therapies is that it can lead to a lot of pressure for people to change and they may act differently but not really be changed
Yup. Those straight people and their weird lifestyle choice. I really can't understand how they live that way either. I'm tolerant of them because some of my best friends are straight, and they seem like nice enough folks. Still. I pity them because they were obviously influenced by the straight culture that surrounds them.0 -
i like carrots, but i don't like brussel sprouts. Do I need therapy too?
Hey! Sprouts are veggies too!
maybe, but they're like, TOTALLY inferior. Quick, someone find me a quote in the bible about how terrible sprouts are!
How about "He who art without cabbage, throweth the first carrot"? Can't remember which verse, it's been a while since I last read it.0 -
maybe, but they're like, TOTALLY inferior. Quick, someone find me a quote in the bible about how terrible sprouts are!
Romans 14:1
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.
Vegetarians are p*ssies.0 -
THIS POST HAS BEEN OPEN FOR OVER 24 HOURS?0
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maybe, but they're like, TOTALLY inferior. Quick, someone find me a quote in the bible about how terrible sprouts are!
Romans 14:1
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.
Good one, there is also:
Better is a meal of sprouts and the love of The Name, than fat carrots with hatred.
(Proverbs 15:17)
And I didn't realise vegetarians will also not go to heaven, coz they do not follow the bible: "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything." Genesis 9:3
Wow!0 -
Good one, there is also:
Better is a meal of sprouts and the love of The Name, than fat carrots with hatred.
(Proverbs 15:17)
"Oh! you little traitors. I think the carrot infinitely more fascinating than the geranium. The carrot has mystery. Flowers are essentially tarts. Prostitutes for the bees. There is a certain je ne sais quoi, oh, so very special, about a firm, young carrot..."
-Uncle Monty0 -
I believe it's a combination of genetics, choice, and upbringing.
That being said, I believe someone can change their orientation if they WANT to, but why would they want to if they like what they like? That therapy crap is about forcing a change, which will obviously never work.
So, you choose your orientation?
I think I understand what the person is trying to say, and I agree. I believe that there are people that are genetically attracted to one sex or the other. Nothing that happens to them in there life will change that. But saying that it's 100% genetic for everyone could be a bit extreme. Let's say that you're genetically somewhere in the middle of the sexuality spectrum. Is it not possible that life experiences could tip you one way or another, or to identify as bisexual? This wouldn't be a "choice," per se, just the way you ended up, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Keep in mind that this is coming from a guy who identified as bisexual in high school and college. Now I consider myself straight. Some might argue that I was never really bi, I've always been straight, and I see that point. But I think it's possible that under a different set of circumstances, things could have turned out differently. There's no way to know for sure.
Edit: Typo no/know0 -
Homosexuality is common in the animal kingdom. It is observed in over 1500 species, from primates to worms. Obviously not all of these are social species, so a reasonable conclusion is that social influences don't play a role in selection.
The phenomenon is so common that some animals have a predictable rate of homosexual individuals within their populations. Such as with domesticated sheep, about 10% of males refuse to mate with females but will readily mate with other males, exclusively - for their entire lives.
But don't tell the Roman Catholic Church. They might start executing their gay sheep. :sad:
Yes... and environmental choices available also comes into affect. Did you all know that dophins that are in captivity where they are only explosed to other dophins of the same sex will still choose to "get it on". I somehow doubt that they happened to capture ONLY the homosexual dophins in the world. Sex is pleasurable. The fact that animal and people will choose same sex partners if none others are available suggests we have some sort of flexibility. It does not suggest that going against your sexual orientation leads to ultimate happiness though...0 -
It has never been scientifically proven that you are "born gay". There are no gay genetics.
You are just born.
I believe that everyone has same-sex attractions. Some people deny them and move forward towards opposite sex attractions right away and some people don't.
That's what I think.
I also believe that reparative therapy can help some people. While there are people who feel shamed into "turning straight", I also believe that there are people who feel shame in "playing gay". I know a lot of people are saying that they don't choose to be gay and no one really does because of the drama and hardships that they will face. But there are also those people who may have "come out of the closet" at an early age, and later on want to change. If they want to make that change, why shouldn't they? And why should they feel shame in wanting that?
Don't we all have the Constitutional right to pursue happiness? If one is happy remaining gay, then thats wonderful. But if one is unhappy and wishes to make a lifestyle change and move towards "straight-ville", why should they feel shame in that?
I really think the fear and shaming goes both ways...
While I admire your preaching of leaving others alone and everyone deserves to find happiness, I HAVE to point out...
There is actually a steady stream of research on the biological and genetic nature of homosexuality; I don't think that needs to change the core belief of, "There is nothing wrong with being any other orientation than straight, and there should be nothing stopping people from pursuing this," but it's worth noting that the research IS there, and because something is not yet completely proven does not make it any less scientific (gravity and evolution are just theories; that doesn't make them "not real"). Edited to say: As others have pointed out, it's not necessarily FULLY biological, either. Nurture and Nature are vital parts of the formation of, well, a human as they become human.
Similarly, you're falling into that awful trap of "lifestyle." You seriously said, "If someone wants to change their lifestyle, what's wrong with that?" There is no "gay" lifestyle, just like there is no "straight" lifestyle. A sexual orientation is not a lifestyle; if, as a straight person, someone is living every choice they make based off their attraction to the opposite sex, then that would be a lifestyle--their life is styled around that key factor. Do you do that? Does anyone seriously live every aspect of their life around their orientation? No. It shapes their life, it influences their life, but unless they are literally opening the fridge and thinking, "I'm gay and I want to drink milk because I'm gay and then eat cereal with that milk because I'm gay," then it's a FACET of who they are, not their entire LIFE.0 -
If you read the research on reparative therapy, you will find that people who have undergone it are far more likely to suffer psychological harm (e.g. increased thoughts of depression) than they are to "turn straight." Which is exactly why it was banned for minors in California. If an adult wants to undergo it, I guess that is their right, but they should be fully informed of the potential risks.
Also, the two of them men who started Exodus International ran off to be together--'nough said.
As a side note, I shy away from biological determinism as a cause of sexual orientation--as with most human behaviors, it is far more complex than simply gene X says you will be gay, therefore you are. One only need to look cross-culturally (or the same person over time) to see that sexual behaviors are very malleable and even changeable over time, but in ways that people experience as real and part of themselves.
And oh yeah, Dr. Oz, is a quack.
Edited for grammar.0 -
Mehmet Oz is a highly talented cardiac surgeon. That does not indicate talent in any other area of medicine. Neither does his being a physician indicate talent or knowledge in any other field, including dietetics or sexual orientation.0
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It has never been scientifically proven that you are "born gay". There are no gay genetics.
You are just born.
I believe that everyone has same-sex attractions. Some people deny them and move forward towards opposite sex attractions right away and some people don't.
That's what I think.
I also believe that reparative therapy can help some people. While there are people who feel shamed into "turning straight", I also believe that there are people who feel shame in "playing gay". I know a lot of people are saying that they don't choose to be gay and no one really does because of the drama and hardships that they will face. But there are also those people who may have "come out of the closet" at an early age, and later on want to change. If they want to make that change, why shouldn't they? And why should they feel shame in wanting that?
Don't we all have the Constitutional right to pursue happiness? If one is happy remaining gay, then thats wonderful. But if one is unhappy and wishes to make a lifestyle change and move towards "straight-ville", why should they feel shame in that?
I really think the fear and shaming goes both ways...
I agree and disagree with what you just said, haha. Yes, people can be confused at a young age and things may change but it's still not a choice, it's not like they are changing their mind about what to wear to school, sexuality is a huge thing and can change and evolve as you age and you begin to learn who you truly are. I myself came out as a lesbian at age 15, but as I got older I realized I am still attracted to men, I currently am with a man. But there was never a choice, it was never "Oh, I'm a lesbian...naah, nevermind, I'm bisexual"
I think most people could benefit from being a little more open and free with their sexuality.
And I agree with everyone about people who say "Oh, I don't agree with being gay but I will be tolerant of them". That is not something you should be proud of. You tolerate morning traffic, or a bad cold, not a group of people.0 -
anyone think that in some circumstances sexual orientation can be the result of abuse by older males at a young age?
I would say for some men, yes. I say this because I know some men for whom this has been the case... their experiences began as children, with other boys/teens somewhat older... Seemingly innocent. But then there's pleasure and there's shame... all rolled up into one. That becomes the thing that's comforting to them, but there's shame associated and they tend to carry on healthy relationships with women. So for them, I'd say they weren't born gay. I can't say others aren't though.
Ugh, ugh, ugh.
Pedophilia =/= homosexuality. Pedophilia IS considered an orientation: an attraction to children/adolescents (Though technically being attracted to specifically teens falls under a different category. Yay labels!).
Similarly, correlation (particularly your ANECDOTAL correlation) does not equal causation. That's like the same argument that, "If you're abused, you're more likely to abuse others." No, there's a correlation between people being abused growing up to be abusers... and it gets much more circulation than the larger statistic that people who were abused DON'T grow up to be abusers.0
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