To those doing very low cals (in the 600 to 1200 range)

Aviva92

Just because someone has a PhD means nothing about what they're saying.
I could have a PhD in nutrition and tell everyone that 3 glasses of wine a day is healthy and you can live off of it for extended periods of time do they have to believe me just because I wrote a thesis and went to school for longer which obviously must mean I know so much more.

Yes correct.

But then the science is given to back it up. And he has applied it to people he coaches. He has also written many artciles.

Strange how many people reject this piece just because he's a bodybuilder and use the fact he's got PHD to ignore him.

What would make people listen?

Haven't watched the video yet, but I'll listen when I see for myself that a 1,200 calorie diet is doing bad things to me. Thus far, I haven't seen any negative affects from it. It's kind of addictive though and I'm so used to it. I hope I can up it it when I reach my goal weight.

Matt_Wild

Just because someone has a PhD means nothing about what they're saying.
I could have a PhD in nutrition and tell everyone that 3 glasses of wine a day is healthy and you can live off of it for extended periods of time do they have to believe me just because I wrote a thesis and went to school for longer which obviously must mean I know so much more.

Yes correct.

But then the science is given to back it up. And he has applied it to people he coaches. He has also written many artciles.

Strange how many people reject this piece just because he's a bodybuilder and use the fact he's got PHD to ignore him.

What would make people listen?

As you said HE had written articles, HE coaches. Is there evidence from other studies done by other people?

And I'm using his PhD against him since the original poster said "It's just me asking people to watch a video by a professional with a lot of experience in training others, and has a phd. in nutritional science. "

Yes - all his articles refer to studies done by others.

Matt_Wild

Just because someone has a PhD means nothing about what they're saying.
I could have a PhD in nutrition and tell everyone that 3 glasses of wine a day is healthy and you can live off of it for extended periods of time do they have to believe me just because I wrote a thesis and went to school for longer which obviously must mean I know so much more.

Yes correct.

But then the science is given to back it up. And he has applied it to people he coaches. He has also written many artciles.

Strange how many people reject this piece just because he's a bodybuilder and use the fact he's got PHD to ignore him.

What would make people listen?

Haven't watched the video yet, but I'll listen when I see for myself that a 1,200 calorie diet is doing bad things to me. Thus far, I haven't seen any negative affects from it. It's kind of addictive though and I'm so used to it. I hope I can stop it when I reach my goal weight.

What would you revert your diet too with a lower body mass than if you'd had more calories reserving lean body mass?

Aviva92

Just because someone has a PhD means nothing about what they're saying.
I could have a PhD in nutrition and tell everyone that 3 glasses of wine a day is healthy and you can live off of it for extended periods of time do they have to believe me just because I wrote a thesis and went to school for longer which obviously must mean I know so much more.

Yes correct.

But then the science is given to back it up. And he has applied it to people he coaches. He has also written many artciles.

Strange how many people reject this piece just because he's a bodybuilder and use the fact he's got PHD to ignore him.

What would make people listen?

Haven't watched the video yet, but I'll listen when I see for myself that a 1,200 calorie diet is doing bad things to me. Thus far, I haven't seen any negative affects from it. It's kind of addictive though and I'm so used to it. I hope I can stop it when I reach my goal weight.

What would you revert your diet too with a lower body mass than if you'd had more calories reserving lean body mass?

I'm not sure that I'm following the question. Once I hit my goal weight which is only around another pound or so, I'll just attempt to up my calories to whatever number results in no more weight-loss.

Matt_Wild

Do you think 1200 calories will preserve your current muscle mass?

SHBoss1673

Haven't watched the video yet, but I'll listen when I see for myself that a 1,200 calorie diet is doing bad things to me. Thus far, I haven't seen any negative affects from it. It's kind of addictive though and I'm so used to it. I hope I can up it it when I reach my goal weight.

I really truly hope it never happens and you reach your goal without ever entering a stage at which you cannot lose weight without further reduction in calories.
But,

here's the problem I would have with this statement. You are essentially saying, until I break something I'm not going to see it as an issue. In other words you're being reactionary with your body instead of adjusting your habits and techniques to avoid an issue, you're waiting until an issue happens before you make a change. This is going to make it harder to change if something does happen, and lead to a higher possibility of failure in the long run.

I'm not saying you should change, I don't know your situation well enough to comment on that, I'm saying, it can be bad to automatically assume that what works now will always work.

Matt_Wild

Haven't watched the video yet, but I'll listen when I see for myself that a 1,200 calorie diet is doing bad things to me. Thus far, I haven't seen any negative affects from it. It's kind of addictive though and I'm so used to it. I hope I can up it it when I reach my goal weight.

I really truly hope it never happens and you reach your goal without ever entering a stage at which you cannot lose weight without further reduction in calories.
But,

here's the problem I would have with this statement. You are essentially saying, until I break something I'm not going to see it as an issue. In other words you're being reactionary with your body instead of adjusting your habits and techniques to avoid an issue, you're waiting until an issue happens before you make a change. This is going to make it harder to change if something does happen, and lead to a higher possibility of failure in the long run.

I'm not saying you should change, I don't know your situation well enough to comment on that, I'm saying, it can be bad to automatically assume that what works now will always work.

Agreed.

Its like saying my car has below the recommend amount of oil in it but because it hasn't broken down yet, its fine and I shouldn't worry.

:huh:

Aviva92

Do you think 1200 calories will preserve your current muscle mass?

I didn't have much muscle mass to begin with. I hurt my back in the middle of dieting and therefore didn't work out other than cardio since June, so I probably did not preserve it. Not ideal, but I don't think that I irrevocably damaged myself by losing weight this way. Also, mfp actually recommends a 1200 calorie diet. I don't think they would recommend something that's going to be damaging.

Matt_Wild

Do you think 1200 calories will preserve your current muscle mass?

I didn't have much muscle mass to begin with. I hurt my back in the middle of dieting and therefore didn't work out other than cardio since June, so I probably did not preserve it. Not ideal, but I don't think that I irrevocably damaged myself by losing weight this way. Also, mfp actually recommends a 1200 calorie diet. I don't think they would recommend something that's going to be damaging.

So you want to get fat more easily, yes?

Its as simple as this. Put it this way, this is my other half Yo Lazarov:



She DIETS on 1600 calories and for 2 days out of every 8 has around 2500 calories. Why would you want to eat less and have poorer results?

Just trying to help you. Its not an attack, its a genuine question to help you improve your dieting and get the results you may wish to achieve.

Aviva92

Haven't watched the video yet, but I'll listen when I see for myself that a 1,200 calorie diet is doing bad things to me. Thus far, I haven't seen any negative affects from it. It's kind of addictive though and I'm so used to it. I hope I can up it it when I reach my goal weight.

I really truly hope it never happens and you reach your goal without ever entering a stage at which you cannot lose weight without further reduction in calories.
But,

here's the problem I would have with this statement. You are essentially saying, until I break something I'm not going to see it as an issue. In other words you're being reactionary with your body instead of adjusting your habits and techniques to avoid an issue, you're waiting until an issue happens before you make a change. This is going to make it harder to change if something does happen, and lead to a higher possibility of failure in the long run.

I'm not saying you should change, I don't know your situation well enough to comment on that, I'm saying, it can be bad to automatically assume that what works now will always work.

I didn't enter a stage where I cannot lose weight without further reduction in calories. I went from 140 to 118 in 7.5 months and lost pretty steadily. Why would I adjust my eating habits just because some people on mfp tell me that it's wrong even though my body is doing fine with it and it's what mfp recommends in the first place?

Aviva92

Haven't watched the video yet, but I'll listen when I see for myself that a 1,200 calorie diet is doing bad things to me. Thus far, I haven't seen any negative affects from it. It's kind of addictive though and I'm so used to it. I hope I can up it it when I reach my goal weight.

I really truly hope it never happens and you reach your goal without ever entering a stage at which you cannot lose weight without further reduction in calories.
But,

here's the problem I would have with this statement. You are essentially saying, until I break something I'm not going to see it as an issue. In other words you're being reactionary with your body instead of adjusting your habits and techniques to avoid an issue, you're waiting until an issue happens before you make a change. This is going to make it harder to change if something does happen, and lead to a higher possibility of failure in the long run.

I'm not saying you should change, I don't know your situation well enough to comment on that, I'm saying, it can be bad to automatically assume that what works now will always work.

Agreed.

Its like saying my car has below the recommend amount of oil in it but because it hasn't broken down yet, its fine and I shouldn't worry.

:huh:

mfp recommended 1200 calories, therefore i'm not viewing it as below the recommended amount of oil.

Matt_Wild

Haven't watched the video yet, but I'll listen when I see for myself that a 1,200 calorie diet is doing bad things to me. Thus far, I haven't seen any negative affects from it. It's kind of addictive though and I'm so used to it. I hope I can up it it when I reach my goal weight.

I really truly hope it never happens and you reach your goal without ever entering a stage at which you cannot lose weight without further reduction in calories.
But,

here's the problem I would have with this statement. You are essentially saying, until I break something I'm not going to see it as an issue. In other words you're being reactionary with your body instead of adjusting your habits and techniques to avoid an issue, you're waiting until an issue happens before you make a change. This is going to make it harder to change if something does happen, and lead to a higher possibility of failure in the long run.

I'm not saying you should change, I don't know your situation well enough to comment on that, I'm saying, it can be bad to automatically assume that what works now will always work.

Agreed.

Its like saying my car has below the recommend amount of oil in it but because it hasn't broken down yet, its fine and I shouldn't worry.

:huh:

mfp recommended 1200 calories, therefore i'm not viewing it as below the recommended amount of oil.

I'm a nutritional coach, I help diet people, I work for Gaspari and Layne's information here is countering what you say in a strong and detailed manner.

But a website that allows the user to key in random figures and spits out a response is more likely to be correct?

Ockhams Razor IMO.

SHBoss1673

Haven't watched the video yet, but I'll listen when I see for myself that a 1,200 calorie diet is doing bad things to me. Thus far, I haven't seen any negative affects from it. It's kind of addictive though and I'm so used to it. I hope I can up it it when I reach my goal weight.

I really truly hope it never happens and you reach your goal without ever entering a stage at which you cannot lose weight without further reduction in calories.
But,

here's the problem I would have with this statement. You are essentially saying, until I break something I'm not going to see it as an issue. In other words you're being reactionary with your body instead of adjusting your habits and techniques to avoid an issue, you're waiting until an issue happens before you make a change. This is going to make it harder to change if something does happen, and lead to a higher possibility of failure in the long run.

I'm not saying you should change, I don't know your situation well enough to comment on that, I'm saying, it can be bad to automatically assume that what works now will always work.

Agreed.

Its like saying my car has below the recommend amount of oil in it but because it hasn't broken down yet, its fine and I shouldn't worry.

:huh:

mfp recommended 1200 calories, therefore i'm not viewing it as below the recommended amount of oil.

first, mfp doesn't recommend it, it's a dumb tool, you ask how much you should be eating in order to lose XX lbs per week, and it gives you a number, whether or not that number is right for you doesn't enter the equation, it makes no calculation on whether it's appropriate for you to eat that much, it just spits out a number based on a static calculation of calories in vs calories out. Second, I'm not telling you that what you are doing is wrong, again I don't know enough to make that assumption. I'm saying just because something worked when you were at a certain weight, doesn't mean it will continue to work, and you should continue to analyze your situation and edit your intake based on facts, not relying on what a tool on a website says. I know Mike (the site owner) and he will be the first on to tell you that the goals wizard is a very generic tool that isn't designed to work for end game management or fine calculation.

MGSR

I can't find a rolling eye smiley I might be wrong, but what I got from the OP is: "Here is a video about why you shouldn't eat too few calories for you, check it out"

He isn't saying "Watch this, and do exactly what it says without any more research"
Bodybuilders are human and a lot of them do a lot of research in order to get where they are, it's definately worth including what they say in your own research, but no one is telling you that's the only research you should do.

To the OP: thank you for posting

teryx123

I believe this effect is correct, but the problem is, what do you do? For one thing, finding the right calories for a given person whose body is out of balance is nearly impossible. We are left with crude calculators that are just as likely to steer us wrong as right. I'm struggling now myself to find the magic conditions that allow weiight loss without doing further damage. It's a poke in the dark, and it gets very frustrating when you spend weeks or months poking around and seeing no results. It often takes weeks to see the effects of subtle changes. I have yet to find a way of determining my BMR that is accurate.

SHBoss1673

I believe this effect is correct, but the problem is, what do you do? For one thing, finding the right calories for a given person whose body is out of balance is nearly impossible. We are left with crude calculators that are just as likely to steer us wrong as right. I'm struggling now myself to find the magic conditions that allow weiight loss without doing further damage. It's a poke in the dark, and it gets very frustrating when you spend weeks or months poking around and seeing no results. It often takes weeks to see the effects of subtle changes. I have yet to find a way of determining my BMR that is accurate.

he actually goes over how to correct the issue, it's not a popular way to fix your metabolism, it takes a long time, and requires slowly eating more calories until you hit what you should be at. once you can maintain at or around what should be your real TDEE, then you can once again begin reducing calories. I've recommended people do this before, it's actually not much different from how you should add calories when approaching your final weight if you were losing, I.E. gradually reduce your deficit until you reach your maintenance calories. Gradual is different for everyone, for some you can add 100 cals every two weeks, others need to be slower and maybe 100 per month, depends on your individual body and really the only way to know is through trial and error.

For example, a woman who has a TDEE of say around 2200 calories, but is currently Netting say around 1000 calories (1200 and 200 extra exercise calories) would probably need to do about 100 calories added every 2 to 3 weeks with frequent checks to see if it's working (or if they need to pause the increase for an extra week or two). So it would take between 10 and 15 weeks to reach maintenance. Then they would probably need to stay there for another month or 6 weeks to let their body adjust and become used to the new calories, then they could again think about lowering calories to again start losing weight. But this time they should take into account how much fat they have, how active they are, and how much they are looking to lose before deciding on a deficit.

teryx123

I believe this effect is correct, but the problem is, what do you do? For one thing, finding the right calories for a given person whose body is out of balance is nearly impossible. We are left with crude calculators that are just as likely to steer us wrong as right. I'm struggling now myself to find the magic conditions that allow weiight loss without doing further damage. It's a poke in the dark, and it gets very frustrating when you spend weeks or months poking around and seeing no results. It often takes weeks to see the effects of subtle changes. I have yet to find a way of determining my BMR that is accurate.

he actually goes over how to correct the issue, it's not a popular way to fix your metabolism, it takes a long time, and requires slowly eating more calories until you hit what you should be at. once you can maintain at or around what should be your real TDEE, then you can once again begin reducing calories. I've recommended people do this before, it's actually not much different from how you should add calories when approaching your final weight if you were losing, I.E. gradually reduce your deficit until you reach your maintenance calories. Gradual is different for everyone, for some you can add 100 cals every two weeks, others need to be slower and maybe 100 per month, depends on your individual body and really the only way to know is through trial and error.

For example, a woman who has a TDEE of say around 2200 calories, but is currently Netting say around 1000 calories (1200 and 200 extra exercise calories) would probably need to do about 100 calories added every 2 to 3 weeks with frequent checks to see if it's working (or if they need to pause the increase for an extra week or two). So it would take between 10 and 15 weeks to reach maintenance. Then they would probably need to stay there for another month or 6 weeks to let their body adjust and become used to the new calories, then they could again think about lowering calories to again start losing weight. But this time they should take into account how much fat they have, how active they are, and how much they are looking to lose before deciding on a deficit.

Exactly: trial and error. Mostly error. What you are saying is correct, no argument. My point is that people reject it because they can't find a clear path through it. Drastic drops in calories will get results that people can see in most cases, even if it is not a good longterm strategy. There is another thread here where a woman had her BMR measured as part of a doctor supervised plan, and she measured 200 to 300 below what most of the calculators say. Since the BMR is the basis for the TDEE, you see the problem that most people face who are not under a doctors care. I guess my lament is that there isn't a better, more definite, approach that would get people on track faster. If there were, there would be less resistance to it (I think).

SHBoss1673

Exactly: trial and error. Mostly error. What you are saying is correct, no argument. My point is that people reject it because they can't find a clear path through it. Drastic drops in calories will get results that people can see in most cases, even if it is not a good longterm strategy. There is another thread here where a woman had her BMR measured as part of a doctor supervised plan, and she measured 200 to 300 below what most of the calculators say. Since the BMR is the basis for the TDEE, you see the problem that most people face who are not under a doctors care. I guess my lament is that there isn't a better, more definite, approach that would get people on track faster. If there were, there would be less resistance to it (I think).

I wish there were, I truly do, unfortunately, you are correct, once you reach the point people are at when they cannot lose weight even on a relatively large deficit, the only recovery is the slow road. If there were a pill or a shot, man my life would be easier (my wife is going through it as we speak).

Aviva92

Do you think 1200 calories will preserve your current muscle mass?

I didn't have much muscle mass to begin with. I hurt my back in the middle of dieting and therefore didn't work out other than cardio since June, so I probably did not preserve it. Not ideal, but I don't think that I irrevocably damaged myself by losing weight this way. Also, mfp actually recommends a 1200 calorie diet. I don't think they would recommend something that's going to be damaging.

So you want to get fat more easily, yes?

Its as simple as this. Put it this way, this is my other half Yo Lazarov:



She DIETS on 1600 calories and for 2 days out of every 8 has around 2500 calories. Why would you want to eat less and have poorer results?

Just trying to help you. Its not an attack, its a genuine question to help you improve your dieting and get the results you may wish to achieve.

She is not me. It looks like she works out a heck of a lot more than I do. Why do you assume that a 1200 calorie diet will result in my metabolism slowing down to a snail pace when all it's resulted in thus far is my losing exactly the weight that i wanted to lose?

Now you stressed me out and I ate the free cookies and hot chocolate that my office gave out today.

Aviva92

I'm a nutritional coach, I help diet people, I work for Gaspari and Layne's information here is countering what you say in a strong and detailed manner.

But a website that allows the user to key in random figures and spits out a response is more likely to be correct?

Ockhams Razor IMO.

The random figure that the online calculator spit out worked for me, so yes.

Matt_Wild

Ok.

kathyms13

OH GOD HERE WE GO AGAIN,

jojo52610

Thanks for Sharing the Video

myofibril

watch this blog, I implore you. it's everything I've been preaching for the last 5 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHHzie6XRGk

I feel the need to bump this.

SHBoss1673

I'm going to put out a much more comprehensive analysis one of these days. I'm a science guy, I don't put much stock in the diet industry. I look at research and studies.

That being said, I was frustrated at some of the responses on this thread. So I did what I always do, I did research to see if there was any science to back up the claims.

Guess what....there is. So not only is there qualitative (observational) proof (the video) but there is also research to back up the theory.

I found tons of research on it, but here are some of the more readable and better designed studies.

Fair warning, they are scientific studies and difficult to read if you don't have a science background. But they are all clear, RMR is reduced when in calorie deficit over the long term, and reduced by more than can be accounted for by the loss of fat free mass (muscle).


http://www.nature.com/oby/journal/v15/n12/full/oby2007354a.html

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/49/1/93.full.pdf+html

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1038/oby.2007.354/full

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/52/6/981.full.pdf+html

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1108368

RikkiDominey

Bump for later

RikkiDominey

watch this blog, I implore you. it's everything I've been preaching for the last 5 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHHzie6XRGk

So I am one of those ppl that eat 1200 cals per day and wanted to say THANK YOU so much for sharing this video.

To all of the ppl saying it's bogus and it's not the same bc they aren't body builders blah blah blah you're terribly wrong! Those "body builders" stick to these diets so of course they are a better reference than to use someone who does a diet for a month and gives up(normal dieters). I have been dieting all my life, I've tried them all, along with every exercise routine that's out there!
Last year I was sustaining my weight of 165lbs (overweight for my height 5'6") by eating only 500 cals per day. I worked out 4 times a week and lost at the most 5 lbs over a 3 month period! Since then I have slowly built up to 1200 cals per day (today is my first day on the 1300)and I currently weigh 162lbs. When I first began the extreme low cal diets I would be able to drop weight quickly and reach my goals (135lbs) and sustain it for a few months. Even if I kept at the low cal intake I would slowly start to gain weight back. I had messed my metabolism up so badly that in order for me to even attempt losing weight I had to starve myself, which btw I was so used to not eating that I could go a day without eating and my stomach would not even growl!
So to all the ppl who say that their body requires you to only eat that low amount and function perfectly bc everyone is different, umm duh that is kinda his point- you have damaged your metabolism so badly that it has adjusted to this! I know personally though that when I was still in denial of this that no matter what anyone told me I wouldn't listen. It will take most ppl to have their own wake up call in order to realize what is really going on. I figured mine out and now I am slowly but surely trying to fix it and get back to eating like a normal person, and I must say having more food is awesome lol.

green_nurse

I cannot agree that eating 1200 cals a day is unhealthy. I think it is all about WHAT you put into your body. I live on beans, vegetables, very little fruit, tofu, egg whites, fish, chicken, seeds, unsweetened almond milk, etc, etc....if you are eating well, 1200 is ALOT of calories. I appreciate the time you've taken to look into this! Always interesting to look at things from another's point of view

SHBoss1673

I cannot agree that eating 1200 cals a day is unhealthy. I think it is all about WHAT you put into your body. I live on beans, vegetables, very little fruit, tofu, egg whites, fish, chicken, seeds, unsweetened almond milk, etc, etc....if you are eating well, 1200 is ALOT of calories. I appreciate the time you've taken to look into this! Always interesting to look at things from another's point of view

ALOT is a relative term, maybe it's a lot of calories if 1100 is maintenance. But there's no science behind what you've stated. The science is, energy taken in (eaten) will eventually = energy used + energy stored. that's the equation, there's no debate over this. The quality of the energy, while important for other reasons, will not play much of a role in this equation other than possibly determining how fast or slow it's used (because of how the macros are locked up in other substances like fiber and cellulose).
if you eat less than your body needs, eventually, your body will adjust to that calorie amount by reducing RMR and (if extreme enough) causing lean mass and organs to atrophy, that's the only way you can reduce your energy output. There's just no science that supports eating at a calorie deficit long term and not eating your own lean tissue to both fuel your body and reduce the active tissue so you NEED less.

red_road