#3 Why calorie in calorie out ALONE isnt enough.
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zaxx1953
Posts: 389 Member
Note1: if you think im a troll bc of some other post please, save yourself the aggravation and simply skip over this post.
If you disagree with my post's content, please SPECIFY a FACTUAL disagreement you have with what ive said (im hardly perfect and will be wrong im sure as I was in phrasing my criticism of strict calorie in/out thinking and mislabeling insulin resistance) and stop littering the forum with nonsense apart from specific points of contention.
Note 2: A lot of what I am writing is sort of being put in non-clinical/academic terms....I admitted that from the outset, but in no way does that mean the underlying concepts are wrong. Please, I am not trying to construct an article for a peer review journal here, so consider that before posting...
Note 3: FOR THE LAST TIME; people who consume less calories than they expend will lose weight. My criticism has to so with CENTERING your weight loss/maintenance JUST on tracking calories in/out bc I DO NOT BELIEVE it to be a very feasible form of weight maintenance in the long term just as someone kindly pointed out already in the previous thread.
Why if I can simply track my calories in and out do you say centering my weight loss/maintenance on solely CI/CO would be problematic?
Well, there are 2 real parts to my answer...1, it is hard to be precise in knowing what your calories out are in a given day/week or month because that number isnt static and those numbers are different for different people. The std deviation (ill try to find the linky) between a simple calculator-derived bmr and a precisely measured one from a lab is usually +- 150-175 Kcals.... a day.
That works out to 1225/1050 Kcals a week or about 17lbs a yr if you average the range.....that isnt negligible at all. That actually is quite huge in terms of weight management. Also, people underestimate the role of activity levels and intense workouts in resting BMR all the times....im sure youve heard the modest claims about how little adding muscle actually burns passively....but have you considered that there is an added activity workload to just maintain those lean pounds and in performing them you have innately raised you caloric expenditures...???
My points is broader than all this; CI/CO is just way too simplistic of a way of looking at our body in the long run....changes happen, activity levels matter and ultimately as we will discuss next, it isnt easy keeping to a calorie limitation for the next 30/40 or 50 yrs without helping yourself by treating the problem....which is....
Most people who have the capacity to become significantly overweight become ravenously hungry at times based on what they are eating and the gaps between feeding times.
NO, IM NOT TALKING TO ALL PEOPLE HERE....Just the people like me who could sit down and eat a box of crispix/rice krispies from a salad bowl bc they simply do achieve satiety through eating simple - often processsed carbs- 2-3 times daily.
For those who do not have this issue, god bless you...you probably can deal with an emotional or medical issue and lose weight fairly easily generally. Use the MFP tools, and enjoy your slim life.
For those who know they have issues with the things ive been talking about the next part is aimed at you/.
So what is it you actually mean regarding CI/CO...can you give me an example?
Yes,
Imagine genetically identical twins both dieting....or attempting to intiate a weight maintenance program:
Twin A- likes waking up and having some simple carbs maybe some milk....then eating half a subway sub for lunch and a bag of baked lays and then a small serving of lasagna and some mashed potatoes for dinner. He has 2 "snacks" consisting of 100Kcal snack bags by a leading snack company that are almost entirely made up of processed carbs.
It is hard, but with support and tonnes of will power he keeps to under X Kcals a day...every day for 6 months and with some added walking he loses 25 lbs.
GREAT!
Twin B- likes to wake up and have some steel cut oatmeal, small bunch of berries, skim milk and some natural PB for breakfast. He then packs himself 2 meals and a snack of light reduced sugar choc milk and a handful of almonds/ skim cheese stick. He splits his meals evenly calorically pretty much but shades simple carb ingestion towards earlier in the day and post workout. He eats a mixture of veggies, whole grains, lean proteins and lean dairy sources with some fruit occasionally but limited to breakfast/post workout.
Twin B engages in CI/CO pretty regularly, but learns to intuitively portion properly and actually finds his hunger to be regular and usually within 1 hour of a meal so manageable. He works out a bit more than Twin A and integrates resistance training 2-3 times a week for 50 mins each session....
Twin B loses 20lb over 6 months...Great!
My question is quite simple:
WHO HAS BEEN MORE SUCCESSFUL?....was it the person who lost the most weight, or the person who has come to understand how to best MANAGE their health, appetite, eating best?
I suppose that is a matter of opinion, but my point should be quite clear; CI/CO is a tool, just a tool. It is not a program to help people learn how to live a healthy lifestyle, maintain their weight loss/ a healthy weight or even relate properly with food IF THEY ARE FACED WITH THE VERY COMMON issues I described above.
Ok, BUT you just conceded that CI/CO will help me lose weight...so what is your beef with it?
Calorie in/Calorie out is PROBLEMATIC because it treats the symptoms of the problem (overeating/under- moving) not the problem itself which is that too many Americans eat low quality foods in the incorrect macronutrtional ratios not often enough during the day. When coupled with inactivity and energy issues (which are also rooted somewhat in the fundamental problem), they gain more and more weight, have less and less energy and often turn towards emotional eating based on guilt/distress over weight gain.
AGAIN, im speaking to a group of people with a distinct problem regarding eating and processed/simple carbs...but I believe this group to make up the bulk of the chronically overweight community. The response we have to certain amounts of simple carbs and certain eating patterns is not necessarily a maladaptation.....but it has become so bc of the very unnatural diet we eat in the west and the very inefficient feeding times we maintain in general.
If there is a desire for parts #4 and #5 ....i'll consider writing them.
If you disagree with my post's content, please SPECIFY a FACTUAL disagreement you have with what ive said (im hardly perfect and will be wrong im sure as I was in phrasing my criticism of strict calorie in/out thinking and mislabeling insulin resistance) and stop littering the forum with nonsense apart from specific points of contention.
Note 2: A lot of what I am writing is sort of being put in non-clinical/academic terms....I admitted that from the outset, but in no way does that mean the underlying concepts are wrong. Please, I am not trying to construct an article for a peer review journal here, so consider that before posting...
Note 3: FOR THE LAST TIME; people who consume less calories than they expend will lose weight. My criticism has to so with CENTERING your weight loss/maintenance JUST on tracking calories in/out bc I DO NOT BELIEVE it to be a very feasible form of weight maintenance in the long term just as someone kindly pointed out already in the previous thread.
Why if I can simply track my calories in and out do you say centering my weight loss/maintenance on solely CI/CO would be problematic?
Well, there are 2 real parts to my answer...1, it is hard to be precise in knowing what your calories out are in a given day/week or month because that number isnt static and those numbers are different for different people. The std deviation (ill try to find the linky) between a simple calculator-derived bmr and a precisely measured one from a lab is usually +- 150-175 Kcals.... a day.
That works out to 1225/1050 Kcals a week or about 17lbs a yr if you average the range.....that isnt negligible at all. That actually is quite huge in terms of weight management. Also, people underestimate the role of activity levels and intense workouts in resting BMR all the times....im sure youve heard the modest claims about how little adding muscle actually burns passively....but have you considered that there is an added activity workload to just maintain those lean pounds and in performing them you have innately raised you caloric expenditures...???
My points is broader than all this; CI/CO is just way too simplistic of a way of looking at our body in the long run....changes happen, activity levels matter and ultimately as we will discuss next, it isnt easy keeping to a calorie limitation for the next 30/40 or 50 yrs without helping yourself by treating the problem....which is....
Most people who have the capacity to become significantly overweight become ravenously hungry at times based on what they are eating and the gaps between feeding times.
NO, IM NOT TALKING TO ALL PEOPLE HERE....Just the people like me who could sit down and eat a box of crispix/rice krispies from a salad bowl bc they simply do achieve satiety through eating simple - often processsed carbs- 2-3 times daily.
For those who do not have this issue, god bless you...you probably can deal with an emotional or medical issue and lose weight fairly easily generally. Use the MFP tools, and enjoy your slim life.
For those who know they have issues with the things ive been talking about the next part is aimed at you/.
So what is it you actually mean regarding CI/CO...can you give me an example?
Yes,
Imagine genetically identical twins both dieting....or attempting to intiate a weight maintenance program:
Twin A- likes waking up and having some simple carbs maybe some milk....then eating half a subway sub for lunch and a bag of baked lays and then a small serving of lasagna and some mashed potatoes for dinner. He has 2 "snacks" consisting of 100Kcal snack bags by a leading snack company that are almost entirely made up of processed carbs.
It is hard, but with support and tonnes of will power he keeps to under X Kcals a day...every day for 6 months and with some added walking he loses 25 lbs.
GREAT!
Twin B- likes to wake up and have some steel cut oatmeal, small bunch of berries, skim milk and some natural PB for breakfast. He then packs himself 2 meals and a snack of light reduced sugar choc milk and a handful of almonds/ skim cheese stick. He splits his meals evenly calorically pretty much but shades simple carb ingestion towards earlier in the day and post workout. He eats a mixture of veggies, whole grains, lean proteins and lean dairy sources with some fruit occasionally but limited to breakfast/post workout.
Twin B engages in CI/CO pretty regularly, but learns to intuitively portion properly and actually finds his hunger to be regular and usually within 1 hour of a meal so manageable. He works out a bit more than Twin A and integrates resistance training 2-3 times a week for 50 mins each session....
Twin B loses 20lb over 6 months...Great!
My question is quite simple:
WHO HAS BEEN MORE SUCCESSFUL?....was it the person who lost the most weight, or the person who has come to understand how to best MANAGE their health, appetite, eating best?
I suppose that is a matter of opinion, but my point should be quite clear; CI/CO is a tool, just a tool. It is not a program to help people learn how to live a healthy lifestyle, maintain their weight loss/ a healthy weight or even relate properly with food IF THEY ARE FACED WITH THE VERY COMMON issues I described above.
Ok, BUT you just conceded that CI/CO will help me lose weight...so what is your beef with it?
Calorie in/Calorie out is PROBLEMATIC because it treats the symptoms of the problem (overeating/under- moving) not the problem itself which is that too many Americans eat low quality foods in the incorrect macronutrtional ratios not often enough during the day. When coupled with inactivity and energy issues (which are also rooted somewhat in the fundamental problem), they gain more and more weight, have less and less energy and often turn towards emotional eating based on guilt/distress over weight gain.
AGAIN, im speaking to a group of people with a distinct problem regarding eating and processed/simple carbs...but I believe this group to make up the bulk of the chronically overweight community. The response we have to certain amounts of simple carbs and certain eating patterns is not necessarily a maladaptation.....but it has become so bc of the very unnatural diet we eat in the west and the very inefficient feeding times we maintain in general.
If there is a desire for parts #4 and #5 ....i'll consider writing them.
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Replies
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Dude - give it up. (Or don't - it'll be entertaining either way.)
(Also, welcome to the social side of MFP! We are so grateful you have lowered yourself to mingle with us commoners. We hope you enjoy this experience, especially as you so very demeaned others who also participate in the social experience side of this yesterday.)0 -
TLDR: Just joined this month - knows more than anyone. Okay.0
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This is an example of what happens when someone purchases a Gary Taubes book.0
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Yes, having a bad attitude and alienating everyone is not the best way to persuade people. Not a great way to find a mate either.0
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http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-causes/diet-and-weight/
I couldn't get through your really long post, but harvard would disagree with you.0 -
TLDR: Just joined this month - knows more than anyone. Okay.
Same!0 -
Nobody ever said calories in vs. calories out alone is the key to a healthy lifestyle, only the key to WEIGHT LOSS.0
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This is an example of what happens when someone purchases a Gary Taubes book.
You hung in longer than I could to discern that! lol0 -
Note1: if you think im a troll bc of some other post please, save yourself the aggravation and simply skip over this post.
If you disagree with my post's content, please SPECIFY a FACTUAL disagreement you have with what ive said (im hardly perfect and will be wrong im sure as I was in phrasing my criticism of strict calorie in/out thinking and mislabeling insulin resistance) and stop littering the forum with nonsense apart from specific points of contention.
Note 2: A lot of what I am writing is sort of being put in non-clinical/academic terms....I admitted that from the outset, but in no way does that mean the underlying concepts are wrong. Please, I am not trying to construct an article for a peer review journal here, so consider that before posting...
Note 3: FOR THE LAST TIME; people who consume less calories than they expend will lose weight. My criticism has to so with CENTERING your weight loss/maintenance JUST on tracking calories in/out bc I DO NOT BELIEVE it to be a very feasible form of weight maintenance in the long term just as someone kindly pointed out already in the previous thread.
Why if I can simply track my calories in and out do you say centering my weight loss/maintenance on solely CI/CO would be problematic?
Well, there are 2 real parts to my answer...1, it is hard to be precise in knowing what your calories out are in a given day/week or month because that number isnt static and those numbers are different for different people. The std deviation (ill try to find the linky) between a simple calculator-derived bmr and a precisely measured one from a lab is usually +- 150-175 Kcals.... a day.
That works out to 1225/1050 Kcals a week or about 17lbs a yr if you average the range.....that isnt negligible at all. That actually is quite huge in terms of weight management. Also, people underestimate the role of activity levels and intense workouts in resting BMR all the times....im sure youve heard the modest claims about how little adding muscle actually burns passively....but have you considered that there is an added activity workload to just maintain those lean pounds and in performing them you have innately raised you caloric expenditures...???
My points is broader than all this; CI/CO is just way too simplistic of a way of looking at our body in the long run....changes happen, activity levels matter and ultimately as we will discuss next, it isnt easy keeping to a calorie limitation for the next 30/40 or 50 yrs without helping yourself by treating the problem....which is....
Most people who have the capacity to become significantly overweight become ravenously hungry at times based on what they are eating and the gaps between feeding times.
NO, IM NOT TALKING TO ALL PEOPLE HERE....Just the people like me who could sit down and eat a box of crispix/rice krispies from a salad bowl bc they simply do achieve satiety through eating simple - often processsed carbs- 2-3 times daily.
For those who do not have this issue, god bless you...you probably can deal with an emotional or medical issue and lose weight fairly easily generally. Use the MFP tools, and enjoy your slim life.
For those who know they have issues with the things ive been talking about the next part is aimed at you/.
So what is it you actually mean regarding CI/CO...can you give me an example?
Yes,
Imagine genetically identical twins both dieting....or attempting to intiate a weight maintenance program:
Twin A- likes waking up and having some simple carbs maybe some milk....then eating half a subway sub for lunch and a bag of baked lays and then a small serving of lasagna and some mashed potatoes for dinner. He has 2 "snacks" consisting of 100Kcal snack bags by a leading snack company that are almost entirely made up of processed carbs.
It is hard, but with support and tonnes of will power he keeps to under X Kcals a day...every day for 6 months and with some added walking he loses 25 lbs.
GREAT!
Twin B- likes to wake up and have some steel cut oatmeal, small bunch of berries, skim milk and some natural PB for breakfast. He then packs himself 2 meals and a snack of light reduced sugar choc milk and a handful of almonds/ skim cheese stick. He splits his meals evenly calorically pretty much but shades simple carb ingestion towards earlier in the day and post workout. He eats a mixture of veggies, whole grains, lean proteins and lean dairy sources with some fruit occasionally but limited to breakfast/post workout.
Twin B engages in CI/CO pretty regularly, but learns to intuitively portion properly and actually finds his hunger to be regular and usually within 1 hour of a meal so manageable. He works out a bit more than Twin A and integrates resistance training 2-3 times a week for 50 mins each session....
Twin B loses 20lb over 6 months...Great!
My question is quite simple:
WHO HAS BEEN MORE SUCCESSFUL?....was it the person who lost the most weight, or the person who has come to understand how to best MANAGE their health, appetite, eating best?
I suppose that is a matter of opinion, but my point should be quite clear; CI/CO is a tool, just a tool. It is not a program to help people learn how to live a healthy lifestyle, maintain their weight loss/ a healthy weight or even relate properly with food IF THEY ARE FACED WITH THE VERY COMMON issues I described above.
Ok, BUT you just conceded that CI/CO will help me lose weight...so what is your beef with it?
Calorie in/Calorie out is PROBLEMATIC because it treats the symptoms of the problem (overeating/under- moving) not the problem itself which is that too many Americans eat low quality foods in the incorrect macronutrtional ratios not often enough during the day. When coupled with inactivity and energy issues (which are also rooted somewhat in the fundamental problem), they gain more and more weight, have less and less energy and often turn towards emotional eating based on guilt/distress over weight gain.
AGAIN, im speaking to a group of people with a distinct problem regarding eating and processed/simple carbs...but I believe this group to make up the bulk of the chronically overweight community. The response we have to certain amounts of simple carbs and certain eating patterns is not necessarily a maladaptation.....but it has become so bc of the very unnatural diet we eat in the west and the very inefficient feeding times we maintain in general.
If there is a desire for parts #4 and #5 ....i'll consider writing them.
I agree--those who are saying "calorie in calorie out" are saying the (real world) equivalent of "if you weren't fat, you wouldn't be so fat". "Move more and eat less" doesn't really explain anything very well because the obvious next question is: "Eat less than what? (I was only eating 1200 calories when I was morbidly obese) Move more than what? I have arthritis and my joints can only handle so much stress and strain. Until I discovered water exercise I didn't think I could exercise (and I still have days when it feels like I am climbing a mountain). I am fifty pounds smaller now and no longer morbidly obese, but until I cut out sugar and wheat, I was going nowhere and the advice to "just eat less and move more" was very unhelpful.0 -
so what do you want to discuss?
you told us what you think, i have to ask
and?
do you want testimonials or questions?0 -
so what do you want to discuss?
you told us what you think, i have to ask
and?
do you want testimonials or questions?
I believe offers of first-borns and/or virginity would be a start. Do I have to say Rumplestilskin first, I wonder?0 -
You just do not give up do you?0
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So....if I do the following...then I'm working a few different muscle groups...yeah?
0 -
TLDR: Just joined this month - knows more than anyone. Okay.
Same!
Ditto! Why would anyone take advice from someone just starting out? If you are so aware and knowledgeable then why do you need to be here losing weight? I would prefer to take advice and suggestions from those that have experience getting and keeping the weight off. Thanks anyway!0 -
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-causes/diet-and-weight/
I couldn't get through your really long post, but Harvard would disagree with you.
TLDR either0 -
Nobody ever said calories in vs. calories out alone is the key to a healthy lifestyle, only the key to WEIGHT LOSS.
What good is a temporary weight loss to anyone if they simply are going to gain back most if not more of the weight in the long run?
Maybe we've gotten to the root of the difference between a lot of you guys and me...who knows.
Most people can lose weight in a limited span of time...so what?0 -
Now I'm intrigued about yesterday's post...0
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*snips out nonsense*
If there is a desire for parts #4 and #5 ....i'll consider writing them.
There wasn't a desire for this part and you wrote it anyway.
These are all bad theories that have been warned against numerous times on these boards. You're not saying anything we haven't heard.
Meal timing.
Carbs are bad.
Insulin resistance.
Calorie counting works. This is a website built around the calorie counting model. It's pretty much the best one out there and has helped TONS of people.
You coming on here, saying it's not about calories but about what kinds of food you eat..
Well we've heard it all before. Many times. We're gonna stick with calorie counting. It's why we're here. And it's working.0 -
Nobody ever said calories in vs. calories out alone is the key to a healthy lifestyle, only the key to WEIGHT LOSS.
What good is a temporary weight loss to anyone if they simply are going to gain back most if not more of the weight in the long run?
Maybe we've gotten to the root of the difference between a lot of you guys and me...who knows.
Most people can lose weight in a limited span of time...so what?
so exactly what are you suggesting we do?
what would be your ideal day?0 -
I agree--those who are saying "calorie in calorie out" are saying the (real world) equivalent of "if you weren't fat, you wouldn't be so fat". "Move more and eat less" doesn't really explain anything very well because the obvious next question is: "Eat less than what? (I was only eating 1200 calories when I was morbidly obese) Move more than what? I have arthritis and my joints can only handle so much stress and strain. Until I discovered water exercise I didn't think I could exercise (and I still have days when it feels like I am climbing a mountain). I am fifty pounds smaller now and no longer morbidly obese, but until I cut out sugar and wheat, I was going nowhere and the advice to "just eat less and move more" was very unhelpful.
And did you get morbidly obese eating 1200 cals a day? Most likely not.0
This discussion has been closed.
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