#3 Why calorie in calorie out ALONE isnt enough.
Replies
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I see what you're sayng, OP. Calories in vs calories out aren't enough for sustainable health. In the long term, the twin who eats better food may not have the same results in terms of weight loss, but will be healthier.
I must be Chinese and have a tight vagina.0 -
I disagree. He made very good points. Like eating healthier overall vs just counting calories but not altering much of what you eat (or altering it to extremes). That calorie counting is good, but alone will not promote long term success.That's unfortunate, but if you don't like him, then don't react badly back. Especially when he has good points. Because other people might walk in here, see it, then see you guys being difficult for the sake of being difficult, and then ignore the good points he's made. Why not focus on actually trying to be educational? Agree when things are good, or if you disagree, provide good reason why instead of calling the dude an idiot.
Even if he is, you can still try and keep this an educational environment otherwise.
The only good point he made was counting calories works.
If you disagree with any of his points, please tell me why. Because until you do, then I will proceed to uphold the fact that his information is mostly correct in practice for many people.0 -
It really irritates me when people try to push their beliefs on others. Especially when they're not accurate. The
Twinkie Diet. An experiment done by professor Mark Haub.0 -
Nevermind.
If you all want to pretend that we're being mean to him because we're all some sort of "cool clique" fine. Go ahead. Start thinking you need to eat small meals several times a day and bread is your enemy. "No it's not that I've been eating too much, it's pop tarts. Pop tarts make my sugar spike and I can't ever ever lose weight or be healthy because of pop tarts."
I guess I just got lucky, don't know how I ever lost weight following MFP. You all listen to your new friend with the great information. I mean you can see the results he's gotten, right? He's been around, he's proven he knows what he's talking about. Myself, Sidesteel, ACG, Sara...we're just bullies picking on the guy trying to help. It can't be because he's posting bad info. How on Earth could we possibly know what we're talking about? Just because we all lost weight and got in great shape using MFP... bunch of jerks. Why would you ever listen to guys like that?
Don't worry. Soon we'll all be banned and you'll be able to purchase your raspberry keytones without anyone saying a bad word against you.
Just ate bread 100 mins ago or so.....
FAIL BOAT SAILS AGAIN.0 -
I eat pop tarts in moderation. And ice cream.
Me too. :happy:
A warm pop tart a la mode. perfection. :flowerforyou:
Werd!0 -
FAIL BOAT SAILS AGAIN.
With you as her captain, I have no doubt you'll steer her safely to shore.0 -
It really irritates me when people try to push their beliefs on others. Especially when they're not accurate. The
Twinkie Diet. An experiment done by professor Mark Haub.
Still not reading the whole OP.
No one is saying you cannot lose weight in the near term by CI/CO....
NO ONE IS SAYING YOU CANNOT LOSE WEIGHT IN THE NEAR TERM BY CI/CO....
How many times.....how many nonsensical responses by those who obviously have not read the OP bc it was too long or cumbersome?0 -
I see what you're sayng, OP. Calories in vs calories out aren't enough for sustainable health. In the long term, the twin who eats better food may not have the same results in terms of weight loss, but will be healthier.
I must be Chinese and have a tight vagina.
I wasn't paying attention until vagina.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go play silly forum games while I sip on my lemony post-workout water.0 -
I disagree. He made very good points. Like eating healthier overall vs just counting calories but not altering much of what you eat (or altering it to extremes). That calorie counting is good, but alone will not promote long term success.That's unfortunate, but if you don't like him, then don't react badly back. Especially when he has good points. Because other people might walk in here, see it, then see you guys being difficult for the sake of being difficult, and then ignore the good points he's made. Why not focus on actually trying to be educational? Agree when things are good, or if you disagree, provide good reason why instead of calling the dude an idiot.
Even if he is, you can still try and keep this an educational environment otherwise.
The only good point he made was counting calories works.
If you disagree with any of his points, please tell me why. Because until you do, then I will proceed to uphold the fact that his information is mostly correct in practice for many people.
Are you reading any of the posts that are disagreeing with him?
Are you seeing the many stories of people who have made counting calories, and eating in moderation work??0 -
I agree--those who are saying "calorie in calorie out" are saying the (real world) equivalent of "if you weren't fat, you wouldn't be so fat". "Move more and eat less" doesn't really explain anything very well because the obvious next question is: "Eat less than what? (I was only eating 1200 calories when I was morbidly obese) Move more than what? I have arthritis and my joints can only handle so much stress and strain. Until I discovered water exercise I didn't think I could exercise (and I still have days when it feels like I am climbing a mountain). I am fifty pounds smaller now and no longer morbidly obese, but until I cut out sugar and wheat, I was going nowhere and the advice to "just eat less and move more" was very unhelpful.
And did you get morbidly obese eating 1200 cals a day? Most likely not.
No, but the weight came on very gradually and I'm sure that you know that just 200 calories more than you need on a daily basis adds a lot of fat over five to ten years or so. And as I gained, my arthritis got worse, so I moved less. I'm not trying to tell anyone that calorie counting doesn't work, but I am telling you that the experience for me and a number of other people is that there are certain foods that trigger problems controlling appetite and contribute to overeating (even if it isn't by much).
That's called lack of self control, foods aren't forcing themselves down your throat, but it makes for a convenient scapegoat for those that lack will power
But..but.. IT'S THE FOODZ FALT!!
So, do you believe simple sugars affect everyone's body in a near identical way vis a vis hunger?
Very simple question with a Y or N answer?
In order for you to judge someone's level of "self control" or lack thereof wouldn't there have to be a standard level of hunger experienced between you and that other person?
The responsiblity for eating lies with the eater not the item being eaten. Stop making enabling excuses. And FTR, you don't dictate to me how I answer. YOUR NOT THE BOSS OF ME! LOL0 -
TLDR: Just joined this month - knows more than anyone. Okay.
he / she could have been researching nutrition and exercising for decades for all you know. I only joined 3 months ago and i've been working out and studying nutrition for coming on 4 years now. I would say I have a better idea of how human physiology works better than most people on MFP.
People were trying to be nice. They wanted to say he is fat and just coming to MFP, meaning he has no personal evidence of how he did it that would support his claims.0 -
This thread makes my head hurt.
If you want to "eat clean," do it.
If you don't want to, don't.
But don't go around defending arguments made by blue people just because they sound pretty to you.0 -
How many times.....how many nonsensical responses by those who obviously have not read the OP bc it was too long or cumbersome?
As many times as it takes to break your tiny, tiny "omg no one thinks I'm smart enough!" heart. We're patient like that.0 -
Yes, when you choose to eat makes no difference at all. Meal timing is an absolute myth. The human body operates on a 24 hour cycle, and processes calories in an ongoing manner. It doesn't matter when you eat the calories, it only matters how many calories are eaten. Many, many controlled studies have been done on the topic. Check out Alan Aragon or Lyle McDonald who have both done breakdowns of meal timing and frequency, Aragon even broke down the "post exercise window" myth by showing that the anabolic window post exercise is actually 24 hours long, meaning as long as you hit your nutritional targets anytime in the 24 hour period after exercising, you're fine.*snips out nonsense*
If there is a desire for parts #4 and #5 ....i'll consider writing them.
There wasn't a desire for this part and you wrote it anyway.
These are all bad theories that have been warned against numerous times on these boards. You're not saying anything we haven't heard.
Meal timing.
Carbs are bad.
Insulin resistance.
Calorie counting works. This is a website built around the calorie counting model. It's pretty much the best one out there and has helped TONS of people.
You coming on here, saying it's not about calories but about what kinds of food you eat..
Well we've heard it all before. Many times. We're gonna stick with calorie counting. It's why we're here. And it's working.
Who said carbs are "bad"??? Where did I say IT WASNT ABOUT CALORIES?
Its like a cult on here.....lol.
Lol, do you even read the posts you comment on?
Are you actually saying it makes absolutely no difference when you choose to eat with reference to even working out?
Please please please say yes!!!0 -
Just ate bread 100 mins ago or so.....
FAIL BOAT SAILS AGAIN.
And I'm eating a pop tart. Purely out of spite.
Ok not purely. It is pumpkin pie flavored and delicious...0 -
Keep eating poptarts in moderation; that will have you thin and happy for life, lol.
I actually sit on the other side of the aisle with this one.... I'm one of the people that think Toaster Strudel's are superior to Pop Tarts.
I've got a box of cherry ones in the freezer. mmmmm!
You look awesome - but you're wrong. I'm going to assume you have never eaten a brown sugar cinnamon pop tart.
I agree, she is wrong. Lovely but terribly terribly wrong.
You've got me. I must confess. I have not eaten a Pop Tart in YEARS.
I only eat the Strudels. The warm, flaky, golden brown strudels.
While it is possible that I have forgotten the taste of a tart so sweet, my heart belongs to the Strudel.
A little information please. The Strudel? Can you eat two for one serving? My pop tarts are 2 to a packet and yet, sadly, you can only have one in a serving. Another reason why some may be overweight. The misinterpretation of serving size.
You have a very good point vis a vis the serving size.0 -
Ok, so you didnt read the post....no problem.
Keep eating poptarts in moderation; that will have you thin and happy for life, lol.
uh. I actually know some totally buff body builders who just go on and on about how great pop tarts are.
And they also eat a ton of times a day almost to a man....
Keep trying.
I even stated a perfect time to eat pop tarts in a post....lol....
That doesnt mean a diet made up primarily of them is going to lead to long term sustainable weight maintenance and health.
Try again...0 -
Just ate bread 100 mins ago or so.....
FAIL BOAT SAILS AGAIN.
And I'm eating a pop tart. Purely out of spite.
Ok not purely. It is pumpkin pie flavored and delicious...
Meany....I have been trying to find that flavor foreva and there you go flaunting it...0 -
Erm mygawd. Ok. So here's the thing- calories in < calories out = loss in body mass. However, there will be a collective outcry by the very same people people who say CICO works if you dare suggest you live off of too few calories. Because no one is actually saying CICO is ALL There is too it.
They will also say that it's important to maintain lean body mass, that it's important to get propert nutrition, that it's important to do some sort of fitness (strenght training) and that you wanna have the proper macros.
But they are also saying that if you eat a cheeseburger or some ice cream, as part of a larger lifestyle that includes exercise, you are gonna be just fine.
But if you make it out like CICO is "moronic" which is what you said earlier, you are kinda throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Oh and NO WAY IN HADES did you get OBESE on 1200 cals a day. Sorries.0 -
OP, has this research been done on test groups that were isolated so that researchers monitored and observed exactly what each person was eating and how long they exercised?
I don't believe that it has, and when conclusions are based on what people report, they are often wrong. People under-report the calories they consume and over-report the exercise they do. Just because scores of people report that they could never lose weight on even very low calorie diets until they gave up ________ (wheat, grains, sugar, fill in the blank), doesn't make it true.0 -
Just ate bread 100 mins ago or so.....
FAIL BOAT SAILS AGAIN.
And I'm eating a pop tart. Purely out of spite.
Ok not purely. It is pumpkin pie flavored and delicious...
In toaster.0 -
I disagree. He made very good points. Like eating healthier overall vs just counting calories but not altering much of what you eat (or altering it to extremes). That calorie counting is good, but alone will not promote long term success.That's unfortunate, but if you don't like him, then don't react badly back. Especially when he has good points. Because other people might walk in here, see it, then see you guys being difficult for the sake of being difficult, and then ignore the good points he's made. Why not focus on actually trying to be educational? Agree when things are good, or if you disagree, provide good reason why instead of calling the dude an idiot.
Even if he is, you can still try and keep this an educational environment otherwise.
The only good point he made was counting calories works.
If you disagree with any of his points, please tell me why. Because until you do, then I will proceed to uphold the fact that his information is mostly correct in practice for many people.
Are you reading any of the posts that are disagreeing with him?
Are you seeing the many stories of people who have made counting calories, and eating in moderation work??
Did you ever even attempt to read the OP....
You know the one where I never claimed calorie counting wouldn't work for losing gobs of weight....the one where I specified I was writing this for a specific audience of people, the one where you would have gotten a clue?0 -
Ok, so you didnt read the post....no problem.
Keep eating poptarts in moderation; that will have you thin and happy for life, lol.
uh. I actually know some totally buff body builders who just go on and on about how great pop tarts are.
And they also eat a ton of times a day almost to a man....
Keep trying.
I even stated a perfect time to eat pop tarts in a post....lol....
That doesnt mean a diet made up primarily of them is going to lead to long term sustainable weight maintenance and health.
Try again...
Uh, how about you say things that don't make sense. I never said they eat ONLY pop tarts. Or that they don't eat often every day.
You are very strange in your communication.0 -
What I have figured out is that calories in vs calories out is super broad, but an awesome foundation and that's what it's supposed to be used for . . . a foundation to figure out what you need to so next. For example I am gluten intolerant (allergist confirmed), I don't process it efficiently and it makes me incredibly inflamed so my diet needs to exclude it (and soy). That's my little innuendo, some people have them, some don't, it comes down to medical necessity really. Fact is though, the ci/co is foundational and conditional on other medical impacts. However, if you don't have any particular actual medical issues then it really is as basic as ci/co. For example, someone who isn't gluten intolerant will have no really benefit of going gf simply by exchanging their 80 calorie wheat bread for 80 calorie rice bread.0
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Keep eating poptarts in moderation; that will have you thin and happy for life, lol.
I actually sit on the other side of the aisle with this one.... I'm one of the people that think Toaster Strudel's are superior to Pop Tarts.
I've got a box of cherry ones in the freezer. mmmmm!
You look awesome - but you're wrong. I'm going to assume you have never eaten a brown sugar cinnamon pop tart.
I agree, she is wrong. Lovely but terribly terribly wrong.
You've got me. I must confess. I have not eaten a Pop Tart in YEARS.
I only eat the Strudels. The warm, flaky, golden brown strudels.
While it is possible that I have forgotten the taste of a tart so sweet, my heart belongs to the Strudel.
A little information please. The Strudel? Can you eat two for one serving? My pop tarts are 2 to a packet and yet, sadly, you can only have one in a serving. Another reason why some may be overweight. The misinterpretation of serving size.
You have a very good point vis a vis the serving size.
I was trying to throw something in relevant to the opost. For some reason I only wanted to discuss pop tarts.....0 -
Note1: if you think im a troll bc of some other post please, save yourself the aggravation and simply skip over this post.
If you disagree with my post's content, please SPECIFY a FACTUAL disagreement you have with what ive said (im hardly perfect and will be wrong im sure as I was in phrasing my criticism of strict calorie in/out thinking and mislabeling insulin resistance) and stop littering the forum with nonsense apart from specific points of contention.
Note 2: A lot of what I am writing is sort of being put in non-clinical/academic terms....I admitted that from the outset, but in no way does that mean the underlying concepts are wrong. Please, I am not trying to construct an article for a peer review journal here, so consider that before posting...
Note 3: FOR THE LAST TIME; people who consume less calories than they expend will lose weight. My criticism has to so with CENTERING your weight loss/maintenance JUST on tracking calories in/out bc I DO NOT BELIEVE it to be a very feasible form of weight maintenance in the long term just as someone kindly pointed out already in the previous thread.
Why if I can simply track my calories in and out do you say centering my weight loss/maintenance on solely CI/CO would be problematic?
Well, there are 2 real parts to my answer...1, it is hard to be precise in knowing what your calories out are in a given day/week or month because that number isnt static and those numbers are different for different people. The std deviation (ill try to find the linky) between a simple calculator-derived bmr and a precisely measured one from a lab is usually +- 150-175 Kcals.... a day.
That works out to 1225/1050 Kcals a week or about 17lbs a yr if you average the range.....that isnt negligible at all. That actually is quite huge in terms of weight management. Also, people underestimate the role of activity levels and intense workouts in resting BMR all the times....im sure youve heard the modest claims about how little adding muscle actually burns passively....but have you considered that there is an added activity workload to just maintain those lean pounds and in performing them you have innately raised you caloric expenditures...???
My points is broader than all this; CI/CO is just way too simplistic of a way of looking at our body in the long run....changes happen, activity levels matter and ultimately as we will discuss next, it isnt easy keeping to a calorie limitation for the next 30/40 or 50 yrs without helping yourself by treating the problem....which is....
Most people who have the capacity to become significantly overweight become ravenously hungry at times based on what they are eating and the gaps between feeding times.
NO, IM NOT TALKING TO ALL PEOPLE HERE....Just the people like me who could sit down and eat a box of crispix/rice krispies from a salad bowl bc they simply do achieve satiety through eating simple - often processsed carbs- 2-3 times daily.
For those who do not have this issue, god bless you...you probably can deal with an emotional or medical issue and lose weight fairly easily generally. Use the MFP tools, and enjoy your slim life.
For those who know they have issues with the things ive been talking about the next part is aimed at you/.
So what is it you actually mean regarding CI/CO...can you give me an example?
Yes,
Imagine genetically identical twins both dieting....or attempting to intiate a weight maintenance program:
Twin A- likes waking up and having some simple carbs maybe some milk....then eating half a subway sub for lunch and a bag of baked lays and then a small serving of lasagna and some mashed potatoes for dinner. He has 2 "snacks" consisting of 100Kcal snack bags by a leading snack company that are almost entirely made up of processed carbs.
It is hard, but with support and tonnes of will power he keeps to under X Kcals a day...every day for 6 months and with some added walking he loses 25 lbs.
GREAT!
Twin B- likes to wake up and have some steel cut oatmeal, small bunch of berries, skim milk and some natural PB for breakfast. He then packs himself 2 meals and a snack of light reduced sugar choc milk and a handful of almonds/ skim cheese stick. He splits his meals evenly calorically pretty much but shades simple carb ingestion towards earlier in the day and post workout. He eats a mixture of veggies, whole grains, lean proteins and lean dairy sources with some fruit occasionally but limited to breakfast/post workout.
Twin B engages in CI/CO pretty regularly, but learns to intuitively portion properly and actually finds his hunger to be regular and usually within 1 hour of a meal so manageable. He works out a bit more than Twin A and integrates resistance training 2-3 times a week for 50 mins each session....
Twin B loses 20lb over 6 months...Great!
My question is quite simple:
WHO HAS BEEN MORE SUCCESSFUL?....was it the person who lost the most weight, or the person who has come to understand how to best MANAGE their health, appetite, eating best?
I suppose that is a matter of opinion, but my point should be quite clear; CI/CO is a tool, just a tool. It is not a program to help people learn how to live a healthy lifestyle, maintain their weight loss/ a healthy weight or even relate properly with food IF THEY ARE FACED WITH THE VERY COMMON issues I described above.
Ok, BUT you just conceded that CI/CO will help me lose weight...so what is your beef with it?
Calorie in/Calorie out is PROBLEMATIC because it treats the symptoms of the problem (overeating/under- moving) not the problem itself which is that too many Americans eat low quality foods in the incorrect macronutrtional ratios not often enough during the day. When coupled with inactivity and energy issues (which are also rooted somewhat in the fundamental problem), they gain more and more weight, have less and less energy and often turn towards emotional eating based on guilt/distress over weight gain.
AGAIN, im speaking to a group of people with a distinct problem regarding eating and processed/simple carbs...but I believe this group to make up the bulk of the chronically overweight community. The response we have to certain amounts of simple carbs and certain eating patterns is not necessarily a maladaptation.....but it has become so bc of the very unnatural diet we eat in the west and the very inefficient feeding times we maintain in general.
If there is a desire for parts #4 and #5 ....i'll consider writing them.
I have no idea what you just said.
But I now have the strangest craving for ice cream. Brb.0 -
Oh and NO WAY IN HADES did you get OBESE on 1200 cals a day. Sorries.
Speaking from personal obesity experience, you do NOT get junk in the trunk and jelly in the belly on 1200 cals a day. It takes a WHOLE LOTTA poptarts.0 -
How do you feel about fast food, Andrew?0
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Thank you. Perhaps I will try them when the pop tarts are all gone. I did like the little icing packs.
I'll agree to buy a box of cinnamon Pop Tarts as well.
LOL this whole exchange made me LOL:happy:0 -
I disagree. He made very good points. Like eating healthier overall vs just counting calories but not altering much of what you eat (or altering it to extremes). That calorie counting is good, but alone will not promote long term success.That's unfortunate, but if you don't like him, then don't react badly back. Especially when he has good points. Because other people might walk in here, see it, then see you guys being difficult for the sake of being difficult, and then ignore the good points he's made. Why not focus on actually trying to be educational? Agree when things are good, or if you disagree, provide good reason why instead of calling the dude an idiot.
Even if he is, you can still try and keep this an educational environment otherwise.
The only good point he made was counting calories works.
If you disagree with any of his points, please tell me why. Because until you do, then I will proceed to uphold the fact that his information is mostly correct in practice for many people.
Are you reading any of the posts that are disagreeing with him?
Are you seeing the many stories of people who have made counting calories, and eating in moderation work??
Did you ever even attempt to read the OP....
You know the one where I never claimed calorie counting wouldn't work for losing gobs of weight....the one where I specified I was writing this for a specific audience of people, the one where you would have gotten a clue?
No.
I clearly said TL;DR.
What I do know is you have created multiple threads over the past few days that have made you sound like you know EVERYTHING. ANYONE that disagrees with you is wrong, and deserves an insult.
How you've gotten MULTIPLE threads deleted because of your rude comments and you're still here is beyond me.0
This discussion has been closed.
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