Beating a Dead Horse

Laceylala

My friends and I have debated the Biggest Loser weight loss program we see on tv many times. Interesting isn't it?

Here is what I know (for me personally)
-I tracked and worked my *kitten* off at the gym for 7 weeks, not eating back my work out cals and didn't see an ounce of weight come off at the scale. Sure my body shape changed and I gained muscle, but no weight loss or inches off.
-Once i started eating my work out cals back I started losing weight. In 3 weeks I think I've lost 4-5 lbs. I am pretty sure that I was starving my body even though I hate that stupid term.

I can only guess that since they are in controlled environment - doctors, personal trainers, etc. and that is all they do day in and day out is work out and learn better eating habits, then obviously it can work. But I have to wonder if it is more about the setting and environment they are in more than anything. If all I did all day was work out, I am sure that I too could burn more than I ate and lose weight, gain muscle, etc.
I feel like there are 4 kinds of living when it comes to weight loss/gain/maintain....
1. maintain - eat what you want, work out or don't
2. gain - overeat bad foods, don't work out
3. general "normal" weight loss using whatever method you find that works
4. BL style weight loss. Weight loss on proverbial steriods. Controlled environment heavily monitored by doctors and PT's, sole focus is weight loss, etc.

And unfortunately very few of us are lucky enough to be able to just solely focus on weight loss. Or we'd all not be here!

Those are my theories on the subject anyways.

Great post! However, you can have all the doctors and trainers and professionals you want as many times a day as you need, but weight loss is based on what you take in vs what you put out. Regardless of the personelle you staff.

When you weren't losing, what were you eating? How many calories were you consuming? Also, what kind of workouts were you doing? Apparently, the BL diet has a systematic way of exercising also and I'm curious to see how yours compares. Will you please be my guinea pig??? LOL

I'm pretty sure my diary is open. I ate decently, sometimes going over, sometimes not. I didn't track on the weekends very often. NOt very much processed foods if any. I generally worked out minimum 3-5 days a week and burned between 450-650 cals each time. I think for me, I had to reactive my long unused muscles and that was part of it, but all I can say is that when I started eating more cals, I started losing weight. I know not all people are successful doing that, but for me personally, I must have been creating too much of a deficit not eating them back or eating enough.
I also know that when I did WW a couple years ago, I ate the points for 6 months and only lost 6 lbs!!! I was clearly not eating enough looking back. I wasn't working out, eating all natural foods and only lost 6 lbs. And you would think that by creating a deficit just by food would be enough, but it wasn't. For me anyways.

LittleSpy

Karma -- why don't you start off doing whatever you decide you think is best for you. Try it for a month and see how it works. If it works, keep doing it. If it doesn't work, try something else.

No one is going to be able to tell you what is going to work for you. No one (and I mean NO ONE) is going to know exactly what is going to work until you do it.

One thing that is clear to me is eating as much high quality real food as possible while losing weight is healthier than not. More nutrients (to a point, obviously) = better health.

Laceylala

Simple - Calories in vs. Calories out!

There is a section in the book that has quoted statements from previous contestants and one of them says that exactly. "Simple- Calories in vs Calories Out". I wont post all of it as I dont want to infringe on copyright but basically he says he eats what his weight x 6 is and burns as many calories as he can. Being a previous contestant and having worked directly with Jillian, Bob and the Drs, I would think its safe to assume he learned this from them.

Which means all the arguments about eating them back are invalid. Right?

Don't you think that by "burning as many calories as he can" though must most likely mean in the BL range of last chance work out calorie burns? Maybe burning my daily 400-700 cals can't be compared to what burning 3500 a day would do to your body? I don't know...

Not sure, exactly. He was talking about what he does now to continue to lose weight after he left the show. I guess the idea I was trying to point out was that he was eating his recommended based off of 6xlbs and burning calories. But I guess just because he doesnt mention exercise calories doesnt necessarily lead to an implication of how he handles them.

I calculated my body weight x6 as the book = 1442. Ironically 1450 is my goal on MFP each day.

I wish that there was a way to ask these questions directly to Jillian Michaels and Hot Bob. (Sorry don't know his last name. Don't care. He's hot and fun to look at) Annnnyways...you never see them address calories on the show. Only exercise and eat right, exercise and eat right, etc. It would be nice to see what they would say wouldn't it? THen we would know for sure how they handle it!

MTGirl

I'll chime in here and say on the eating exercise calories point - each person is so individual I don't think there is 1 universal answer! It really depends on a persons individual chemistry. And really, only trial and error will show what works. Some people have lost weight NOT eating back exercise calories, then after a month or so absolutely couldn't lose anymore. Quite a few of these people started eating back their exercise calories and started losing again, and continued losing at a good rate. On the other hand, some people have eaten back their exercise calories and not lost anything. Only when they quit eating them, then they lost weight consistently. Some have not had success at either end of the spectrum, and find success eating back about 1/2 of their exercise calories.

Each persons body operates differently, and I don't think science can account for every persons differences. That's why there is so much conflicting evidence and theories. It is healthier to lose 1 - 2 lbs per week. But, some can lose more healthier and some of us can only lose 1 - 2 per MONTH. So my answer when someone says "Why eat them back?" generally is this : Try the system as it is set up. At least give it a fair shot. Mike didn't set this up on a lark - he researched it and tried the method and had success himself. If, after 2 - 4 weeks, there is no change, then tweak. Eat back 1/2 of exercise calories, or 1/4, or 3/4 or none. Keep trying until you find what works best with your body.

On a personal note - I didn't lose much not eating them back. I've lost exactly 0 eating them all back. Last year, I lost at a good rate eating about 1/2 of them back. So for me, that seems to work best. Some bodies do not function well with too great of a deficit, so experiment. You can only work with what you are given! That's my $.02 :smokin:

KatWood

Karma,
If anything this has been a lively, interesting thread.
And I understand where you are coming from and I wish you the best of luck in your journey.
Everyone is different and this is definitely a journey of self discovery.
Sometimes these types of debates can offend people, but I truly feel that everyone has the best of intentions. And sometimes it is hard to see those intentions when it is written instead of spoken.
Personally, I find it hard sometimes not to get frustrated when I think people are making the same mistakes I have made in the past. Does that make sense? I guess I want people to learn from my mistakes when really what they need is to have their own experiences and draw their own conclusions.
Take everything with a grain of salt but also keep an open mind.
You can do this and you are worth the effort and the time (if that is what it takes). :flowerforyou:

EKarma

I will admit that I rarely eat my exercise calories, but I do make it a point to get to at least 1200 calories a day. On that show, it's so hard to say.. Because the heavier the person is, the more they are losing per week. And that's why when people start nearing their goals and not making "the cut", they end up getting booted. I haven't been able to flip through the book to see what is going on all around on the show..

In my opinion, I am happy eating 1200 cals and exercising 30-50 minutes 5 to 6 days a week. I am satisfied with the progress I have made thus far and have found it easy to follow my new lifestyle.. I guarentee those people are not sticking strictly to what they did on that show, ya know.. It's so much.. And like I said, this is a lifestyle for me, not a diet... It's easy to give up on a diet, but not a lifestyle..

Hope you're having a happy st. patty's day BFF!! I'm terrified to put in the corn beef, but maybe that'll make me be good.. we'll see huh :sad:

LittleSpy

Simple - Calories in vs. Calories out!

Might I add, if this were true, you wouldn't have posts like this one:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/3047-700-calories-a-day-and-not-losing

And yes, I'm aware you've already read it, Karm. I'm just pointing out that it's really really NOT just calories in vs calories out for anyone who didn't already know. And although that may be my "opinion," anyone who debates it would be merely stating their own "opinion." No one (again, NO ONE) knows everything about how our bodies work.

So, I think the problem you're having is that the answer you want to hear and the "scientific evidence" you're looking for just doesn't and will never exist.

karmasBFF

Karma,
If anything this has been a lively, interesting thread.
And I understand where you are coming from and I wish you the best of luck in your journey.
Everyone is different and this is definitely a journey of self discovery.
Sometimes these types of debates can offend people, but I truly feel that everyone has the best of intentions. And sometimes it is hard to see those intentions when it is written instead of spoken.
Personally, I find it hard sometimes not to get frustrated when I think people are making the same mistakes I have made in the past. Does that make sense? I guess I want people to learn from my mistakes when really what they need is to have their own experiences and draw their own conclusions.
Take everything with a grain of salt but also keep an open mind.
You can do this and you are worth the effort and the time (if that is what it takes). :flowerforyou:

You are very sweet, Kat. Thank you so much.

rmccully

Simple - Calories in vs. Calories out!

There is a section in the book that has quoted statements from previous contestants and one of them says that exactly. "Simple- Calories in vs Calories Out". I wont post all of it as I dont want to infringe on copyright but basically he says he eats what his weight x 6 is and burns as many calories as he can. Being a previous contestant and having worked directly with Jillian, Bob and the Drs, I would think its safe to assume he learned this from them.

Which means all the arguments about eating them back are invalid. Right?

Well that may work for him but that would not be a formula for everyone.. based on that 125*6 = 750

there ia no way that i should be eating 750.

karmasBFF

Ok, so I am going to be COMPLETELY vulnerable right now and make an emotional confession:

I am really asking the question because I want to start working out but it is soooo discouraging to stop losing the weight. When I was working out, I wasnt losing. And I felt great because my endorphines were running high! i had great amounts of energy and I was confident in myself. Until weigh in. and please dont tell me not to weigh in-I am incapable of not weighing in right now. For me, the inches are nice, BUT I NEED THE NUMBERS! Or I get discouraged. I am trying to find out how to work out and still drop for both aspects of benefits, you know? I really am scared to start working out, like anxiety scared. :frown:

jennylynn84

[
I want a simple answer to a simple question: HOW DO YOU CREATE A LARGERE DEFICIT IF YOU ARE EATING YOUR CALORIES BACK?

YOU DON'T.

Obviously, the only way to create a larger deficit is to have fewer calories - whether by eating less or working them off.

The question is "is it healthy to create a huge deficit through not eating your calories back?"

And you're not going to find a solid answer on this. Studies have been done by every authority you can think of. Every personal trainer and dietician and nutritionist in the world has a different answer. Because every single BODY is different and every person needs different things to properly fuel your body. So you have to find something that works for you.

Personally, I eat back some of my exercise calories. MFP has set me at 1200 calories for the day and if I go play racquetball I burn at least 600 - usually much more - as much as 750.

That may sound great, but it puts me at 450 calories for the day that I've consumed (technically). Personally, if I knew a person who consumed just 450 calories a day consistently, I would consider them anorexic.

The best thing to do is to go to a doctor (not a trainer - a doctor) and have them analyze YOU. Not people on TV or people on a Web site. Let them take YOUR body fat readings and test YOUR metabolism and YOUR weight history and come up with some suggestions for you.

What works for one person doesn't work for all. If it did I could eat a whole box of snack cakes like my friend and weight 110 and not be on this site to begin with.

karmasBFF

Simple - Calories in vs. Calories out!

Might I add, if this were true, you wouldn't have posts like this one:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/3047-700-calories-a-day-and-not-losing

Oh, jib! How did I know you would post this link!!!!???? LOL

It is a valid point, though. I think its calories in vs calories out over the recommended 1200 minimum.

and you are right about finding what works for me and only me. I just wish it was simpler than that. I dont think I have learned to trust myself yet because I, by myself, have let it get this far. So how could I trust myself? Hmmm, I thought I was going to be enlightened with posting this...now, I just feel sad.

LongMom

So my opinon on all this is why eat less if you don't need to? I mean what is the point?
I feel better when I adequately fuel my body, especially when I am training hard. And I enjoy eating :laugh:
And I know that although my weightloss will be slow, it will be healthy and sustainable.
To me it isn't about a number on a scale, it is about how I feel (both physically and emotionally) and being a good role model for those around me.
This isn't a race and it isn't temporary, there is no going back or stopping after I cross the finish line.
This is a permanent change to how I live and how I view food and life in general.
Why are we so obsessed with comparing ourselves to what we see in the media?

This sums up exactly the way *I FEEL* about the whole debate. Everyone is different! I personally eat when I want to and don't when I don't feel like it. I'm expecting this to take a loooooong time for me, and I'm cool with that. I know the longer it takes, the more time I have to "practice" maintaining! Someone mentioned a calorie bank and the overall calorie intake over a few days. That's how I look at it too - also why I don't weigh in every day.

When my oldest daughter was a baby, she was considered "underweight" and my doctor told me to pay attention to what she eats over the period of a week, not a day because naturally, our body needs fluctuate over time. I figure if it works for a baby - it has to work for me!

I appreciate/respect the number crunchers and the way they're doing it - it's just not for me

karmasBFF

[
I want a simple answer to a simple question: HOW DO YOU CREATE A LARGERE DEFICIT IF YOU ARE EATING YOUR CALORIES BACK?

YOU DON'T.

Obviously, the only way to create a larger deficit is to have fewer calories - whether by eating less or working them off.

The question is "is it healthy to create a huge deficit through not eating your calories back?"

And you're not going to find a solid answer on this. Studies have been done by every authority you can think of. Every personal trainer and dietician and nutritionist in the world has a different answer. Because every single BODY is different and every person needs different things to properly fuel your body. So you have to find something that works for you.

Personally, I eat back some of my exercise calories. MFP has set me at 1200 calories for the day and if I go play racquetball I burn at least 600 - usually much more - as much as 750.

That may sound great, but it puts me at 450 calories for the day that I've consumed (technically). Personally, if I knew a person who consumed just 450 calories a day consistently, I would consider them anorexic.

The best thing to do is to go to a doctor (not a trainer - a doctor) and have them analyze YOU. Not people on TV or people on a Web site. Let them take YOUR body fat readings and test YOUR metabolism and YOUR weight history and come up with some suggestions for you.

What works for one person doesn't work for all. If it did I could eat a whole box of snack cakes like my friend and weight 110 and not be on this site to begin with.

I think you are right. Unfortunately, my company is closing and I dont have insurance....UGH!

But you are absolutely right in comparing these two facts: for every opinion someone has, someone else has a body that doesnt work with that. I just want to find what works for me...right now. not in a month. not in 2 weeks. now. and that's childish.

Excuse me while I pick myself off the ground...lol

MTGirl

Ok, so I am going to be COMPLETELY vulnerable right now and make an emotional confession:

I am really asking the question because I want to start working out but it is soooo discouraging to stop losing the weight. When I was working out, I wasnt losing. And I felt great because my endorphines were running high! i had great amounts of energy and I was confident in myself. Until weigh in. and please dont tell me not to weigh in-I am incapable of not weighing in right now. For me, the inches are nice, BUT I NEED THE NUMBERS! Or I get discouraged. I am trying to find out how to work out and still drop for both aspects of benefits, you know? I really am scared to start working out, like anxiety scared. :frown:

My memory may be fuzzy - but when you were exercising, weren't you NOT eating your exercise calories?? I thought we had a conversation and you were going to experiment by doing it that way. Maybe it was someone else. What were you doing when you were exercising before, calorie wise??

P.S. - part of this process is learning to trust ourselves. This may be one step for you! You rock Karma

chulie

Simple - Calories in vs. Calories out!

There is a section in the book that has quoted statements from previous contestants and one of them says that exactly. "Simple- Calories in vs Calories Out". I wont post all of it as I dont want to infringe on copyright but basically he says he eats what his weight x 6 is and burns as many calories as he can. Being a previous contestant and having worked directly with Jillian, Bob and the Drs, I would think its safe to assume he learned this from them.

Which means all the arguments about eating them back are invalid. Right?

Well that may work for him but that would not be a formula for everyone.. based on that 125*6 = 750

there ia no way that i should be eating 750.

i just did the same...at 155*6= 930... at 5'10....are you KIDDING ME????? I THINK I would die if I could only eat 900 calories a day!!!!! Especially being a runner....where would I get the energy to run 7k on 930 calories....NOOOO thank you! hahaha...

simona1972

Well that may work for him but that would not be a formula for everyone.. based on that 125*6 = 750

there ia no way that i should be eating 750.

I think that's it...that there's no ONE formula that works for everyone. For me, 332x6 = 1992 - doable. If I ate back the 1100 calories a day, I may not lose as quickly. As I lose, I'll have to adjust the calories in and out.

I think everyone has to do what works for them. Ultimately my goal is to lose weight and be healthier...yes, my opnion is the quicker the better, but I also have A LOT to lose. Im in the Super Morbidly Obese category.

Karma, I dont think you should fear working out. Find out what works for you. I may take a week or two or three. Working out WILL help you lose weight. I dont have an answer for you as to what you need to do and how often or at what intensity, but believe me when I say I understand where you're coming from. Being overweight's a *****. And you want it off ASAP! I NEED my scale too. On my body, you wont really notice the 18lbs gone. I love that Ive lose 18lbs, but wonder every day if I can do something to speed that up.

SHBoss1673

WOW! Your reply was very mean to me.

sdwelk11

I personally make sure to eat my 1300 calories/day but as far as exercise calories go. If I am hungry then I eat them and if I am not hungry then I don't. Bottom line is that my whole life I always heard that you have to burn more than you take in so why would you want to do all the hard work to burn and then turn around and eat them again.

just my opinion and its working for me so far. When and if I hit a plateau I will readjust where needed but right now I lose an average of 2.2 lbs/week.

LittleSpy

Ok, so I am going to be COMPLETELY vulnerable right now and make an emotional confession:

I am really asking the question because I want to start working out but it is soooo discouraging to stop losing the weight. When I was working out, I wasnt losing. And I felt great because my endorphines were running high! i had great amounts of energy and I was confident in myself. Until weigh in. and please dont tell me not to weigh in-I am incapable of not weighing in right now. For me, the inches are nice, BUT I NEED THE NUMBERS! Or I get discouraged. I am trying to find out how to work out and still drop for both aspects of benefits, you know? I really am scared to start working out, like anxiety scared. :frown:

My weight loss stalled (I think I even gained one week) when I started working out really hard. Before that I had just been doing like 30 minute bike rides and 30 minute walks. When I started running and circuit training, my body was like "WOAH -- wait a minute!" I'm sure much of it was my muscles retaining water and maybe some of it was my body freaking about the larger calorie deficit. But I realized I was doing too much too fast and took my exercise intensity down a notch and the weight started melting off again.
However, at the end of January/beginning of February I started running a lot more. I had finally built myself up to be able to run 3-4 miles at a time and I was doing it several times a week. I started feeling tired, weak, etc and my weight loss screeched to a halt. I HAD to start eating more if I was going to continue to workout like that. Started eating about 50% of my exercise calories in addition to my 1200 base calories, lost about 10 more pounds, weight loss is stopping again. 5 years ago I was on a 1400 calorie diet and hit a huge brick wall at EXACTLY the same weight I am now. I gave up (wasn't doing a good job of being *healthy* that go 'round) & gained 60 pounds. Not going to be giving up this time so, oh yes, I think it's time to be realistic and change my expectations to 1.5 pounds a week. Now I'll be attempting to eat 150 MORE calories on top of 50% of my exercise calories.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to wrap your head around eating 1500-1600 calories a day when you've learned how to never feel hungry between meals on 1200 a day? :laugh: I feel like a freaking pig. And to try so hard to make them *healthy* calories -- that's the real problem. If this time next month (yes, I'm giving this a full month before I determine whether or not it's the right thing to do) I've gained weight, I'll let you know eating more didn't work.