Beating a Dead Horse

karmasBFF

WOW! Your reply was very mean to me.

I apologize. I felt offended with your opening statement. When I'm attacked (or I feel that way), I scratch back. Again, I apologize 1000 times over. You are a great member of this site and you do offer great information. Its just sometimes you come off a little pushy (as do I, Im sure.) I have had the "eat your calories" PUSHED on me and though I agreed with that for a little bit, it always nagged me subconsciously because it didnt feel right. I just wanted an answer and I have since learned there is no one answer. and that's not your fault. or mine. or anyone's.

I apologize sincerely.

chgudnitz

I calculated my body weight x6 as the book = 1442. Ironically 1450 is my goal on MFP each day.

I wish that there was a way to ask these questions directly to Jillian Michaels and Hot Bob. (Sorry don't know his last name. Don't care. He's hot and fun to look at) Annnnyways...you never see them address calories on the show. Only exercise and eat right, exercise and eat right, etc. It would be nice to see what they would say wouldn't it? THen we would know for sure how they handle it!

Please tell me it's not 6xbody weight in pounds? That would give me way less that 1200 a day and let me tell you, that isn't gonna cut it... :laugh: :laugh:

karmasBFF

Ok, so I am going to be COMPLETELY vulnerable right now and make an emotional confession:

I am really asking the question because I want to start working out but it is soooo discouraging to stop losing the weight. When I was working out, I wasnt losing. And I felt great because my endorphines were running high! i had great amounts of energy and I was confident in myself. Until weigh in. and please dont tell me not to weigh in-I am incapable of not weighing in right now. For me, the inches are nice, BUT I NEED THE NUMBERS! Or I get discouraged. I am trying to find out how to work out and still drop for both aspects of benefits, you know? I really am scared to start working out, like anxiety scared. :frown:

My memory may be fuzzy - but when you were exercising, weren't you NOT eating your exercise calories?? I thought we had a conversation and you were going to experiment by doing it that way. Maybe it was someone else. What were you doing when you were exercising before, calorie wise??

P.S. - part of this process is learning to trust ourselves. This may be one step for you! You rock Karma

Great memory! However, I just went back and checked my diary and I always ate AT LEAST HALF, but usually about 3/4 of them...maybe not eating them is what will work for me at my weight and my goals. Maybe that's why it felt wrong to eat them. because it does not work for me. at least not in this stage of my weight loss...

Thanks for making me look at that!

JStarnes

Ok, so I am going to be COMPLETELY vulnerable right now and make an emotional confession:

I am really asking the question because I want to start working out but it is soooo discouraging to stop losing the weight. When I was working out, I wasnt losing. And I felt great because my endorphines were running high! i had great amounts of energy and I was confident in myself. Until weigh in. and please dont tell me not to weigh in-I am incapable of not weighing in right now. For me, the inches are nice, BUT I NEED THE NUMBERS! Or I get discouraged. I am trying to find out how to work out and still drop for both aspects of benefits, you know? I really am scared to start working out, like anxiety scared. :frown:

That's how my body operates, too. Work out & no loss but don't work out & I see big losses. I'm also the same about the measuring, I need to see the number go down. :ohwell: I'm not scared to work out, I just don't see the point until I'm at a weight that I don't mind maintaining.

MTGirl

Ok, so I am going to be COMPLETELY vulnerable right now and make an emotional confession:

I am really asking the question because I want to start working out but it is soooo discouraging to stop losing the weight. When I was working out, I wasnt losing. And I felt great because my endorphines were running high! i had great amounts of energy and I was confident in myself. Until weigh in. and please dont tell me not to weigh in-I am incapable of not weighing in right now. For me, the inches are nice, BUT I NEED THE NUMBERS! Or I get discouraged. I am trying to find out how to work out and still drop for both aspects of benefits, you know? I really am scared to start working out, like anxiety scared. :frown:

My memory may be fuzzy - but when you were exercising, weren't you NOT eating your exercise calories?? I thought we had a conversation and you were going to experiment by doing it that way. Maybe it was someone else. What were you doing when you were exercising before, calorie wise??

P.S. - part of this process is learning to trust ourselves. This may be one step for you! You rock Karma

Great memory! However, I just went back and checked my diary and I always ate AT LEAST HALF, but usually about 3/4 of them...maybe not eating them is what will work for me at my weight and my goals. Maybe that's why it felt wrong to eat them. because it does not work for me. at least not in this stage of my weight loss...

Thanks for making me look at that!

I see no issue with you trying that method for a month anyway. If you still have issues losing weight, then we can help you find something else to try. Just remember, the first week or 2 you may not lose much or may even gain a little when you start exercising, especially if it's fairly intense. You know the glycogen and water in the muscles thing. May not happen, but be prepared just in case!! You'll figure this out and will rock it out - have faith girl! Oh, and be nice to SHBoss - he's awesome ( I read your apologies. :happy: You don't see much of that around here - good job!)

LittleSpy

I just went back and checked my diary and I always ate AT LEAST HALF, but usually about 3/4 of them...maybe not eating them is what will work for me at my weight and my goals.

Yep, maybe that is what works for you -- if so, do it woman!

I believe one of the tricks with eating your exercise calories that you have to use them for good quality calories. You can't think "Well, I ran 3 miles today so I'm going to eat 2 doughnuts." Because the thing is, doughnuts (or beer or cake or cookies or whatever) don't really have any nutritional value -- they're mostly empty calories but your body NEEDS nutritients. So, if you eat all your exercise calories and eat a good bit of junk food to get there, well, that's nearly exactly the same as starving yourself because your body still isn't getting what it needs. It doesn't just need calories -- it needs protein and good fats and good carbs and vitamins and minerals, etc.

Anyway, that's my *theory* (Oh and remember that all "scientific evidence" is really all just THEORIES. It's not facts. Even the Theory of Relativity is still a freaking "theory" because it would be completley unscientific to deem something as the *one truth*). My other theory is that when people are eating 100% of their exercise calories and not losing, they may be overestimating their exercise calories (even with a HRM... or especially with a HRM) and underestimating their portion sizes (even with measuring cups & scales -- did you take a bite of something & not log it? did you lick a spoon? did you lick your fingers? etc.). I've seen this with myself especially with peanut butter (and cheese). I'll take the time to measure out 16 grams (1 tablespoon) of PB... And then I'll add a little more.. and then I'll lick the spoon, and then I'll get a finger full. And by that time I've easily had 2 tablespoons -- that's an extra 90-100 calories! :ohwell: When I catch myself I grudgingly log it, but I wonder how many times I've done that without being really conscious of it.

If what you think works for you isn't working for you anymore, you've really gotta move on and you have to give what you change enough time to work.
Remember Albert Einstein's definition of insanity? "Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

KatWood

Ok, so I am going to be COMPLETELY vulnerable right now and make an emotional confession:

I am really asking the question because I want to start working out but it is soooo discouraging to stop losing the weight. When I was working out, I wasnt losing. And I felt great because my endorphines were running high! i had great amounts of energy and I was confident in myself. Until weigh in. and please dont tell me not to weigh in-I am incapable of not weighing in right now. For me, the inches are nice, BUT I NEED THE NUMBERS! Or I get discouraged. I am trying to find out how to work out and still drop for both aspects of benefits, you know? I really am scared to start working out, like anxiety scared. :frown:

Ok. A few questions.
What types of workouts were you doing? What intensity and how often? Also how long did you do this for?
I could be wrong but I think it is common not to see results right away when you first start exercising. And it is important to ensure you are working out at a high enough intensity and that you have enough variety in your workouts.
When I first started exercising I hired a trainer and he told me not to expect to see results in the first 5 weeks. But I think he meant more in terms of muscle tone and body shape rather than just weightloss.
Do you keep track of your measurement as well as your weight?

karmasBFF

I just went back and checked my diary and I always ate AT LEAST HALF, but usually about 3/4 of them...maybe not eating them is what will work for me at my weight and my goals.

Yep, maybe that is what works for you -- if so, do it woman!

I believe one of the tricks with eating your exercise calories that you have to use them for good quality calories. You can't think "Well, I ran 3 miles today so I'm going to eat 2 doughnuts." Because the thing is, doughnuts (or beer or cake or cookies or whatever) don't really have any nutritional value -- they're mostly empty calories but your body NEEDS nutritients. So, if you eat all your exercise calories and eat a good bit of junk food to get there, well, that's nearly exactly the same as starving yourself because your body still isn't getting what it needs. It doesn't just need calories -- it needs protein and good fats and good carbs and vitamins and minerals, etc.

Anyway, that's my *theory* (Oh and remember that all "scientific evidence" is really all just THEORIES. It's not facts. Even the Theory of Relativity is still a freaking "theory" because it would be completley unscientific to deem something as the *one truth*). My other theory is that when people are eating 100% of their exercise calories and not losing, they may be overestimating their exercise calories (even with a HRM... or especially with a HRM) and underestimating their portion sizes (even with measuring cups & scales -- did you take a bite of something & not log it? did you lick a spoon? did you lick your fingers? etc.). I've seen this with myself especially with peanut butter (and cheese). I'll take the time to measure out 16 grams (1 tablespoon) of PB... And then I'll add a little more.. and then I'll lick the spoon, and then I'll get a finger full. And by that time I've easily had 2 tablespoons -- that's an extra 90-100 calories! :ohwell: When I catch myself I grudgingly log it, but I wonder how many times I've done that without being really conscious of it.

If what you think works for you isn't working for you anymore, you've really gotta move on and you have to give what you change enough time to work.
Remember Albert Einstein's definition of insanity? "Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Jib,

I know I tell you this all the time, but you are my fav!!!!!

karmasBFF

Ok, so I am going to be COMPLETELY vulnerable right now and make an emotional confession:

I am really asking the question because I want to start working out but it is soooo discouraging to stop losing the weight. When I was working out, I wasnt losing. And I felt great because my endorphines were running high! i had great amounts of energy and I was confident in myself. Until weigh in. and please dont tell me not to weigh in-I am incapable of not weighing in right now. For me, the inches are nice, BUT I NEED THE NUMBERS! Or I get discouraged. I am trying to find out how to work out and still drop for both aspects of benefits, you know? I really am scared to start working out, like anxiety scared. :frown:

Ok. A few questions.
What types of workouts were you doing? What intensity and how often? Also how long did you do this for?
I could be wrong but I think it is common not to see results right away when you first start exercising. And it is important to ensure you are working out at a high enough intensity and that you have enough variety in your workouts.
When I first started exercising I hired a trainer and he told me not to expect to see results in the first 5 weeks. But I think he meant more in terms of muscle tone and body shape rather than just weightloss.
Do you keep track of your measurement as well as your weight?

At first I was doing the Wii Fit Plus every night. then I started the shred and did that for 7 day before I hurt my shoulder.

I have lost inches and that's great, but so much is defined by that number on the scale, you know? No one goes around saying "My waist is 28." No, they say "I weigh 125 lbs." I dont know, maybe its just me.

jennylynn84

Ok, so I am going to be COMPLETELY vulnerable right now and make an emotional confession:

I am really asking the question because I want to start working out but it is soooo discouraging to stop losing the weight. When I was working out, I wasnt losing. And I felt great because my endorphines were running high! i had great amounts of energy and I was confident in myself. Until weigh in. and please dont tell me not to weigh in-I am incapable of not weighing in right now. For me, the inches are nice, BUT I NEED THE NUMBERS! Or I get discouraged. I am trying to find out how to work out and still drop for both aspects of benefits, you know? I really am scared to start working out, like anxiety scared. :frown:

Hm. This is a tough one. Working out is a must for weight loss, imo. Mainly because you can lose all the weight and still be unhappy with how you look because what a lot of people are really looking for tone.

The endorphin high is also great. Nothing like a good workout to feel less stressed.

The best advice I can give is that sometimes your muscles retain water. Especially if your body isn't used to working out. And if you don't have a whole lot of weight to lose, sometimes working out can stall the scale.

You might try ignoring the scale when working out. Take measurements instead. I'm willing to bet you'll see a difference in that despite what the scale says. And I totally relate to needing the numbers from the scale. But just remind yourself, that when you go shopping or look in the mirror and don't like what you see, its not numbers you have a problem with - it's the shape of your body and tracking measurements will track that change - the change you really want anyway.

Last time I was at the weight I am at now (on the way up) I KNOW I was heavier looking than this. But I didn't have all the dense muscle mass that I do now from working out. A friend of mine is technically "overweight" for her height - but she's solid muscle and really small looking.

Try eating back some of your exercise calories, if not all. I don't blame you. I have a hard time trying to eat a lot of calories to make back up for racquetball (1950 calories a day?! Really?! How?!)

You might have to play around with it a little and see what is best for you.

LittleSpy

Jib,

I know I tell you this all the time, but you are my fav!!!!!

:laugh: And now I just think you're being sarcastic because I'm being annoying & hijacking your thread again.
I'll shuddup now (for a minute or 2 at least).

karmasBFF

Jib,

I know I tell you this all the time, but you are my fav!!!!!

:laugh: And now I just think you're being sarcastic because I'm being annoying & hijacking your thread again.
I'll shuddup now (for a minute or 2 at least).

NO YOU ARE NOT! and I am not being sarcastic! I have learned sooo much from you! And your quirky and you present your information with sincerely caring about me (least thats how I feel). I think everyone has an inspiration. Unfortunately for you, you are mine! :flowerforyou:

KatWood

At first I was doing the Wii Fit Plus every night. then I started the shred and did that for 7 day before I hurt my shoulder.

I have lost inches and that's great, but so much is defined by that number on the scale, you know? No one goes around saying "My waist is 28." No, they say "I weigh 125 lbs." I dont know, maybe its just me.

I get what you are saying but when you go into a store you don't say I'm 125 lbs you say I'm a size 8 (or whatever the case may be). No offense to anyone but a low weight doesn't mean that you are healthy or that you look good.
I would take a strong, sexy 150lbs over a weak flabby 125lbs.

acakeforawife

Despite some of the 'tension' I think this has been a great post and really interesting to read! Thanks for posting it!

I mean, I think to answer your question about BL, they are obviously NOT eating back their exercise calories, or at least not all of them, that's how they get the large defecits. (Though I do remember a couple of seasons ago, Bob had to keep telling Mike he wasn't eating enough, and we did see his losses improve after he upped his calories. But I can't remember or if they ever mentioned how much he was eating vs. how much he should be eating.)

If you are interested, the doctor behind the show did write a book with a similar plan, although it seems to have gotten very little attention or fanfare, and I've never seen it promo'ed or referenced on the show. It's called Where Did All The Fat Go? by Rob Huizenga. My understanding of it his approach is MODERATE calorie reduction coupled with a LOT of exercise. I believe he has people eat approx. their BMR in calories, and workout 2 hours a day (mostly cardio but some strength training too.) So you're eating your BMR and it's your exercise calories that are actually creating the defecit.

It seems like a reasonable approach to me, and I think it would work for awhile, at least. In my personal experience, if you have a lot to lose, what seems to happen is that: you lose well with pretty much ANY approach, as long as you're burning more than you're eating. But once you get smaller / have been doing that for a longer period of time, your body does start to react differently to things. The closer you are to goal, (and the less fat stores you have), the more you really have to experiement with the numbers -- eating more, eating less, etc.

And as for your more recent post, about being afraid to work out -- I'd say just stick to cardio for now! If you do cardio and little/no strength training, you WILL keep losing, whether you eat back your exercise cals or not. You will lose more if you don't. Of course, in a year, you're probably going to regret the fact that you lost a lot of muscle weight and slowed your metabolism right down and will be stucking spending months with a HIGHLY uncooperative scale, but if you really feel like you need the scale to cooperate NOW, that is an option. (And I hope that didn't sound b*tchy, it's coming more from personal experience than anything else! )

SHBoss1673

WOW! Your reply was very mean to me.

I apologize. I felt offended with your opening statement. When I'm attacked (or I feel that way), I scratch back. Again, I apologize 1000 times over. You are a great member of this site and you do offer great information. Its just sometimes you come off a little pushy (as do I, Im sure.) I have had the "eat your calories" PUSHED on me and though I agreed with that for a little bit, it always nagged me subconsciously because it didnt feel right. I just wanted an answer and I have since learned there is no one answer. and that's not your fault. or mine. or anyone's.

I apologize sincerely.

I'm truly sorry if you ever felt as if I pushed you. My post was frustration maybe, but I never lashed out. I think what people need to remember is that when you read a post, you are projecting your own tone onto a post. As I would hope everyone on MFP would do, I try to never project my feelings on to what someone else is writing (or at least I keep in mind that I'm doing so). That's what I feel like you did to my post, maybe I'm wrong, and maybe I'm right, I don't know, but that's how it felt.

I can tell you this, If you go back through my posts, almost all of them caveat the data with the idea that everyone is different, and everyone needs to take into account their own situation when applying said concepts. There is no concrete ceiling and floor for calories (even relatively speaking). Taking that into account, the information I give (and maybe I should state this on every post I give so people understand me from the outset) is based on the ability to maintain the lifestyle for the long term. I never claimed, nor will I ever, that there aren't faster ways to lose weight, I only state that it's my believe that a slower, more methodical approach to weight loss allows your body to adjust to the change more readily, and while that won't elicit results as fast as creating a giant deficit, it plays directly into the subconscious and how humans form habits. In other words, slower weight loss (to a degree) means less extreme shifts, which gives the body more time to adjust, which means easier transition from weight loss to maintenance. And while I'll freely admit it's conjecture, I believe that the majority of the people on this site are looking for sustained, and permanent weight loss and better health. Maybe I'm wrong there, but I don't think so.

That's all I really have to say on this topic, feel free to comment if you like but I really don't have anything more to add.

LongMom

I have lost inches and that's great, but so much is defined by that number on the scale, you know? No one goes around saying "My waist is 28." No, they say "I weigh 125 lbs." I dont know, maybe its just me.

How about this? I don't think people go around saying "I weigh ANY NUMBER", but people DO notice, on their own, inches lost Just throwing out a different perspective!

karmasBFF

Despite some of the 'tension' I think this has been a great post and really interesting to read! Thanks for posting it!

I mean, I think to answer your question about BL, they are obviously NOT eating back their exercise calories, or at least not all of them, that's how they get the large defecits. (Though I do remember a couple of seasons ago, Bob had to keep telling Mike he wasn't eating enough, and we did see his losses improve after he upped his calories. But I can't remember or if they ever mentioned how much he was eating vs. how much he should be eating.)

If you are interested, the doctor behind the show did write a book with a similar plan, although it seems to have gotten very little attention or fanfare, and I've never seen it promo'ed or referenced on the show. It's called Where Did All The Fat Go? by Rob Huizenga. My understanding of it his approach is MODERATE calorie reduction coupled with a LOT of exercise. I believe he has people eat approx. their BMR in calories, and workout 2 hours a day (mostly cardio but some strength training too.) So you're eating your BMR and it's your exercise calories that are actually creating the defecit.

It seems like a reasonable approach to me, and I think it would work for awhile, at least. In my personal experience, if you have a lot to lose, what seems to happen is that: you lose well with pretty much ANY approach, as long as you're burning more than you're eating. But once you get smaller / have been doing that for a longer period of time, your body does start to react differently to things. The closer you are to goal, (and the less fat stores you have), the more you really have to experiement with the numbers -- eating more, eating less, etc.

And as for your more recent post, about being afraid to work out -- I'd say just stick to cardio for now! If you do cardio and little/no strength training, you WILL keep losing, whether you eat back your exercise cals or not. You will lose more if you don't. Of course, in a year, you're probably going to regret the fact that you lost a lot of muscle weight and slowed your metabolism right down and will be stucking spending months with a HIGHLY uncooperative scale, but if you really feel like you need the scale to cooperate NOW, that is an option. (And I hope that didn't sound b*tchy, it's coming more from personal experience than anything else! )

I will have to look up that book and see what information it presents. Thanks for the recommendation!

I think you are right about the regretting not working out in the long run. I think I just have to suck it up and do it....and trust that in the end, I am doing my best and as long as it is more than I was doing before, it WILL pay off.

Not *****y at all!

karmasBFF

At first I was doing the Wii Fit Plus every night. then I started the shred and did that for 7 day before I hurt my shoulder.

I have lost inches and that's great, but so much is defined by that number on the scale, you know? No one goes around saying "My waist is 28." No, they say "I weigh 125 lbs." I dont know, maybe its just me.

I get what you are saying but when you go into a store you don't say I'm 125 lbs you say I'm a size 8 (or whatever the case may be). No offense to anyone but a low weight doesn't mean that you are healthy or that you look good.
I would take a strong, sexy 150lbs over a weak flabby 125lbs.

You know what? You are absolutely right! I was a size 14 and 160lbs and I was one bad b*tch! LMAO!!!!!

But its because the inches werent there regardless of the weight! THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE EYE OPENER!

karmasBFF

I have lost inches and that's great, but so much is defined by that number on the scale, you know? No one goes around saying "My waist is 28." No, they say "I weigh 125 lbs." I dont know, maybe its just me.

How about this? I don't think people go around saying "I weigh ANY NUMBER", but people DO notice, on their own, inches lost Just throwing out a different perspective!

So true! Thanks!

BrendaLee

Look at all of the success stories here on MFP- I think there are probably more than the average for any site of this type. Most of the big losers on here that I've spoken to do eat their exercise calories, and they've been successful not only at losing the weight, but keeping it off. This is also the first time I've had anything resembling longterm success. I'm already living on a 1000 calorie deficit (on the days I can even achieve that), and I know for a fact I could not/ would not stick it out if I worked out like crazy and increased that deficit by 500 or 1000...or more. I'd have to say, a 1000 calorie deficit is definitely at the top end of the range for me.