Vegan therories at 3 in the morning.
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I am recently vegan and I was uncomfortable with the original post on this thread, which was ill informed and attacking and has given rise to painful and heated exchanges of views. Not surprising people think vegans are weird.
For me, I am well aware that eggs and milk are primary sources of protein and are far superior to meat, fish and vegetable sources in that order. My choice was made because I could no longer accept the ill treatment and captivity of animals kept in meat and dairy and the pollution directly caused by those industries. Simple as that.
My dog will eat grass, meat and eggs, drink milk and other animals’ faeces and all are to varying extent good for him. I choose not to follow his example because he does not have the dilemmas that I have to deal with.
Regarding vegan food deficiencies, there are supplements available which have been produced from vegan sources to address these – just a little research needed.
I used to soap-box – until I realised it is not the best way to bring people on board or even state a sound argument. I guess – to a point – I am enlightened.
Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
I think you'll find that in spite of the arguments this type of thread inevitably produces, most people here don't have a problem with ethical veganism. It's evangelical veganism that tends to upset people. It's also not just evangelical veganism, I think people get upset with anyone who wants to tell everyone how their diet is the only correct one.
Winner winner, chicken dinner. (lol)0 -
I am recently vegan and I was uncomfortable with the original post on this thread, which was ill informed and attacking and has given rise to painful and heated exchanges of views. Not surprising people think vegans are weird.
For me, I am well aware that eggs and milk are primary sources of protein and are far superior to meat, fish and vegetable sources in that order. My choice was made because I could no longer accept the ill treatment and captivity of animals kept in meat and dairy and the pollution directly caused by those industries. Simple as that.
My dog will eat grass, meat and eggs, drink milk and other animals’ faeces and all are to varying extent good for him. I choose not to follow his example because he does not have the dilemmas that I have to deal with.
Regarding vegan food deficiencies, there are supplements available which have been produced from vegan sources to address these – just a little research needed.
I used to soap-box – until I realised it is not the best way to bring people on board or even state a sound argument. I guess – to a point – I am enlightened.
Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
I think you'll find that in spite of the arguments this type of thread inevitably produces, most people here don't have a problem with ethical veganism. It's evangelical veganism that tends to upset people. It's also not just evangelical veganism, I think people get upset with anyone who wants to tell everyone how their diet is the only correct one.
totally agree (and thank you for liking my other post :flowerforyou: )
I don't have any problem at all with anyone who wants to not eat animal products for any reason (ethical, personal taste, whatever) so long as you're getting your nutrition somehow and you're healthy - what I object to is claims that eating animal products is unnatural for humans. It's not. We're adapted mainly as hunter-gatherers (with fisher-gatherer and agriculturalist thrown in more recently), but our ecological niche is adaptability, and we are capable of surviving and even thriving on a very wide range of different diets. If you're providing your body with what it needs and you're healthy, what you actually eat is no concern of mine. If a particular food (e.g. dairy) makes some people ill, those people shouldn't eat it, but if others can eat it without getting ill and get nutrition from it, then why shouldn't they? That's it really.0 -
I am recently vegan and I was uncomfortable with the original post on this thread, which was ill informed and attacking and has given rise to painful and heated exchanges of views. Not surprising people think vegans are weird.
For me, I am well aware that eggs and milk are primary sources of protein and are far superior to meat, fish and vegetable sources in that order. My choice was made because I could no longer accept the ill treatment and captivity of animals kept in meat and dairy and the pollution directly caused by those industries. Simple as that.
My dog will eat grass, meat and eggs, drink milk and other animals’ faeces and all are to varying extent good for him. I choose not to follow his example because he does not have the dilemmas that I have to deal with.
Regarding vegan food deficiencies, there are supplements available which have been produced from vegan sources to address these – just a little research needed.
I used to soap-box – until I realised it is not the best way to bring people on board or even state a sound argument. I guess – to a point – I am enlightened.
Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
I think you'll find that in spite of the arguments this type of thread inevitably produces, most people here don't have a problem with ethical veganism. It's evangelical veganism that tends to upset people. It's also not just evangelical veganism, I think people get upset with anyone who wants to tell everyone how their diet is the only correct one.
totally agree (and thank you for liking my other post :flowerforyou: )
I don't have any problem at all with anyone who wants to not eat animal products for any reason (ethical, personal taste, whatever) so long as you're getting your nutrition somehow and you're healthy - what I object to is claims that eating animal products is unnatural for humans. It's not. We're adapted mainly as hunter-gatherers (with fisher-gatherer and agriculturalist thrown in more recently), but our ecological niche is adaptability, and we are capable of surviving and even thriving on a very wide range of different diets. If you're providing your body with what it needs and you're healthy, what you actually eat is no concern of mine. If a particular food (e.g. dairy) makes some people ill, those people shouldn't eat it, but if others can eat it without getting ill and get nutrition from it, then why shouldn't they? That's it really.
I can even understand someone taking an ethical position and wanting to communicate it to others. But I expect some respect in doing that, some consistency in action, very little pseudo-science and frankly I am not sure that this is the venue for that type of discussion.0 -
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- Our saliva. Carnivores do not produce saliva to aid in digesting food
See spike drool. Yuck, Spike, yuck. You're not supposed to have saliva.
Snake venom is modified saliva that begins to pre-digest food before the snake finishes swallowing.
Carnivores don't produce AMYLASE, an enzyme necessary to digest carbohydrates. Humans, and other omnivores, do.0 -
And this is why vegans have such a bad rep.
Sometimes I think about going vegan but I would never call others out for their diet on a motivational forum or anywhere else. By the way, humans are omnivores, not carnivores. 
I am vegan and I know exactly what you mean. I dont understand this need to belittle others who choose to eat meat.
I believe in live and let live.0 -
I am recently vegan and I was uncomfortable with the original post on this thread, which was ill informed and attacking and has given rise to painful and heated exchanges of views. Not surprising people think vegans are weird.
For me, I am well aware that eggs and milk are primary sources of protein and are far superior to meat, fish and vegetable sources in that order. My choice was made because I could no longer accept the ill treatment and captivity of animals kept in meat and dairy and the pollution directly caused by those industries. Simple as that.
My dog will eat grass, meat and eggs, drink milk and other animals’ faeces and all are to varying extent good for him. I choose not to follow his example because he does not have the dilemmas that I have to deal with.
Regarding vegan food deficiencies, there are supplements available which have been produced from vegan sources to address these – just a little research needed.
I used to soap-box – until I realised it is not the best way to bring people on board or even state a sound argument. I guess – to a point – I am enlightened.
Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
I think this post is a good example of thoughtful posting.
I sometimes go vegan. I'm not a vegan, but there are many days that I have chosen to eat that way. I have friends with far different dietary needs than I have, including vegans and kosher and halal, and we manage to enjoy each other's company without proselytizing.0 -
Um, carnivores do have saliva (have you never been around a dog?) Also, human stomach acid has a pH of 1, not 4 or 5. We are omnivores, and we have evolved as omnivores, we've been eating meat and cooking food for millions of years.The problem with being Vegan is that you can ONLY get vitamin b12 from animal sources. You HAVE to supplement a vegan diet with B12 or you will eventually become very ill indeed. Humans are carnivores - I respect the vegan ethic, but we're not designed to eat in that fashion for any length of time.
I eat meat, however you are VERY wrong. I'll list the ways.
1. Vitamin B12 does not come from an animal source. It is ingested by the animal, so technically you are getting second hand B12. It actually comes from bacteria from dirt. The animals get it b/c they don't wash their food before eating them. B12 can also stay in your system for YEARS, so if you were to get a supplement, having one pill every few months would be fine.
2. Humans are not carnivores at all. In fact our bodys are designed EXACTLY like herbivores.
Here is what we share with herbivores that carnivores do not.
- Our intestines - carnivores & omnivores 3-6 times body length, herbivores(and humans) 10-12 times their body length
- Our saliva. Carnivores do not produce saliva to aid in digesting food
- K9's. Our K9's are similar to other herbivores K9's, not carnivores K9's (or teeth in general.
- facial muscles - carnivores have reduced facial muscles to allow for wide mouth gape, we along with herbivores do not. (along with multiple other "jaw" reasons
- chewing - carnivores swallow whole (or don't chew they tear), humans need extensive chewing - just like herbivores.
- Stomach acidity - Carnivores and omnivores PH1 or lower, in humans PH 4-5 same as herbivores
- colon - simple, short and smooth in carnivores and omnivores. Herbivores - long, complex and sacculated
- liver - carnivores can detoxify Vitamin A - herbivores and humans can not.
- kidney - extremely concentrated urine in carnivores and omnivores. In herbivores and humans it's moderately concentrated urine
- nails - carnivores and omnivores their nails are actually sharp claws. In herbivores and humans - flattened nails or hooves.
You would have been just slightly less wrong if you said we were omnivores, but still wrong.
Even apes who eat meat are still 98% vegetarian. btw you can add omnivores to any of the carnivore list I did not - they apply, I just got lazy.0 -
I am recently vegan and I was uncomfortable with the original post on this thread, which was ill informed and attacking and has given rise to painful and heated exchanges of views. Not surprising people think vegans are weird.
For me, I am well aware that eggs and milk are primary sources of protein and are far superior to meat, fish and vegetable sources in that order. My choice was made because I could no longer accept the ill treatment and captivity of animals kept in meat and dairy and the pollution directly caused by those industries. Simple as that.
My dog will eat grass, meat and eggs, drink milk and other animals’ faeces and all are to varying extent good for him. I choose not to follow his example because he does not have the dilemmas that I have to deal with.
Regarding vegan food deficiencies, there are supplements available which have been produced from vegan sources to address these – just a little research needed.
I used to soap-box – until I realised it is not the best way to bring people on board or even state a sound argument. I guess – to a point – I am enlightened.
Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
I think this post is a good example of thoughtful posting.
I sometimes go vegan. I'm not a vegan, but there are many days that I have chosen to eat that way. I have friends with far different dietary needs than I have, including vegans and kosher and halal, and we manage to enjoy each other's company without proselytizing.
Oooo I approve of your use of proselytizing.
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Cows Milk was once my favourite beverage I use to get /most/ of my calories from milk. I had no problems until I started getting severe acne and getting over weight, there is a lot of reasons why I stopped drinking milk and started switching over to a more vegan centred diet. Not only is vegan more ethic BUT it is healthier and anyone that says you can't get proper nutrients on that lifestyle clearly doesn't know enough about it.0
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Carnivores don't produce AMYLASE, an enzyme necessary to digest carbohydrates. Humans, and other omnivores, do.
Pardon the minor correction. Carnivores produce pancreatic amylase but not salivary amylase.
And in a very Monty Python way we could ask.
Q: What else produces amylase?
A: Plants! Plants produce amylase!
A: And they are green!
If she's green, she must be a plant! And a witch! Burn her! Or serve her with carrots!
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Hello people. I see you are on the third page. Go back and read everything Sarauk2sf said before responding with something that makes no sense.0
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Hey,
I have made the change and cut out dairy (not that I had much before anyway), grains (bread, gluten products in general) and most red meats (however I love pork and raw beef, very good here in Japan!). I love my soy, tofu, seafood, eggs, nuts etc.
I had found I ALWAYS felt bloated and was never full, always wanting to eat more like 2000. I find now I can somewhat easily stick to 1200 (sorry a bit off topic) and my skin has also improved, as well as any stomach cramps I used to have. I don't know whether to attribute this to the dairy or the gluten, however on the weekend after having a gourmet 4 cheese pizza I was so gassy, had stomach cramps and just felt like s***. So I think it depends on the person as to what suits them. For me, avoiding gluten, red meat and dairy 6 days a week is really working and I feel so much healthier and happy with myself.
I have only had milk in the past couple of years when cafes haven't provided the soy alternative or if it has been cream on the rare occasion I have an iced coffee or maybe ice cream (mmmmm cream). As for calcium and other concerns, I take supplements.
Live and let live. It's just when people say 'I wanna lose weight' and they eat fruit loops, cookies and coke and wonder why they are stuck that I think it's time to start an argument. It's just a personal choice, not so much black and white so it's a difficult one.0 -
Bravo neandermagnon!
I loathe vegetable jihadists.0 -
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I am recently vegan and I was uncomfortable with the original post on this thread, which was ill informed and attacking and has given rise to painful and heated exchanges of views. Not surprising people think vegans are weird.
For me, I am well aware that eggs and milk are primary sources of protein and are far superior to meat, fish and vegetable sources in that order. My choice was made because I could no longer accept the ill treatment and captivity of animals kept in meat and dairy and the pollution directly caused by those industries. Simple as that.
My dog will eat grass, meat and eggs, drink milk and other animals’ faeces and all are to varying extent good for him. I choose not to follow his example because he does not have the dilemmas that I have to deal with.
Regarding vegan food deficiencies, there are supplements available which have been produced from vegan sources to address these – just a little research needed.
I used to soap-box – until I realised it is not the best way to bring people on board or even state a sound argument. I guess – to a point – I am enlightened.
Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
I think you'll find that in spite of the arguments this type of thread inevitably produces, most people here don't have a problem with ethical veganism. It's evangelical veganism that tends to upset people. It's also not just evangelical veganism, I think people get upset with anyone who wants to tell everyone how their diet is the only correct one.
Yep. This. In the future, I may become vegan...but it'll be for ethical reasons. I am becoming increasingly more uncomfortable with how the animals are treated in the dairy and egg industry. I've made small changes that help me with those feelings, but I imagine down the line vegan will become my ethical food choice.
I know that I am responsible for the choices I make and the food I put in my mouth, no one else. I can share with people my beliefs and any knowledge I have, however I also look to do it without judgment. We are all on a food journey of some sort. Additionally, I have long had the notion that standing on a soap box preaching to people with a condesending attitude is not the best way for people to hear your message.
Somewhat off subject but.....you don't have to go vegetarian to be kinder to animals. I buy all my meat from a farm that allows the animals to forage for their natural diets, the beef is grassfed, the pork is pasteurised and the chickens get free roam. No hormones, no grain fed etc. They are taken to slaughter by the farm owners within ten miles of the farm to reduce the distress caused.
There are ways to make sure the animals are treated well before you buy it as meat.0 -
Has anyone else notices we're the ONLY species that drinks milk past the 1 year mark? Does that not seem a bit off to you?
Actually the natural weaning age of a human child is between 4 and 7 years old.
^^This - it is a wide spread fallacy that babies sould be weaned at 1!0 -
I truly don't understand the vast amounts of people who promote the use of egg whites and whey in everything.
Am I the only one here that realizes there are far healthier forms of protein that work just as well, if not better?
I"m the one with a weird "fad" for eating raw vegan? When people who are in their 30's and 40's are still suckling cow's milk like it's no tomorrow.
Cow's milk is made for cows. Human milk is made for humans. If your going to drink milk that's for helping infants grow can't you at least drink it from your own species? Hell, cows and humans are in totally different families. The genetic make up of their milk is far different.
Dairy is made to make a calf grow to 500lbs in under a year. A calf is around 1/5th the size of a full grown heifer, now a human child is 1/32th the size of it's mother. Does anyone else see what's wrong with that picture?
Has anyone else notices we're the ONLY species that drinks milk past the 1 year mark? Does that not seem a bit off to you?
Or maybe it's all the other mammals on this planet are the ones doing wrong. Maybe cats should drink goat milk and goats should drink raccoon milk and raccoons should drink kangaroo milk. That makes sense right?
AMEN.0 -
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The problem with being Vegan is that you can ONLY get vitamin b12 from animal sources. You HAVE to supplement a vegan diet with B12 or you will eventually become very ill indeed. Humans are carnivores - I respect the vegan ethic, but we're not designed to eat in that fashion for any length of time.
B-12 comes from bacteria, not meat technically. There are arguments that due to the cleanliness of the modern diet, the only way to get the B-12 is synthetically or from meat, but that's not by "natural design." (At my doctor's appointment recently, she wanted to run a blood test because my B-12 on my last test was overly high, apparently. I realize this may be evidence that I do a terribly lazy job of washing my fruits and veggies.)
However, while I appreciate your passion, SB, these arguments don't end well and don't do anything to promote the vegan lifestyle. It's so rare to convince anyone through criticizing the way they eat.0 -
Also, any more posts with adorable animals?0
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There you go
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I know we're well past that, but since the OP was going on about how we're the only species to drink milk, which means that we shouldn't drink milk, well, we're also the only species to actually care about the suffering and pain of other species, so using the OP's logic, we shouldn't care about pain and suffering of animals.
Heck, lions begin eating their prey while it's still alive. Do you think they care whether that gazelle is in pain or distressed?0 -
The genetic makeup of milk is different? Milk doesn't have a "genetic makeup." The cow has a "genetic makeup." Yes, it's different than the "genetic makeup" of humans. But it's not the milk that has the genetic makeup. The biochemical composition of these two fluids is different.0
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Also, any more posts with adorable animals?
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And honestly, they aren't that different. Cow's milk has more protein, and human milk has more lactose, but fat content is pretty similar, and interestingly, human milk is pretty high in trans fats.The genetic makeup of milk is different? Milk doesn't have a "genetic makeup." The cow has a "genetic makeup." Yes, it's different than the "genetic makeup" of humans. But it's not the milk that has the genetic makeup. The biochemical composition of these two fluids is different.0 -
I'm still waiting for the list of superior protein the OP alluded to in her second sentence.0
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