Can't Build Muscle while at a Deficit - Revisited
Camille0502
Posts: 311 Member
Instead of hijacking another thread, I just decided to start a new one. The conventional wisdom around here is that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit. I work out 6 times per week - normally three cardio sessions and three weightlifting sessions. I keep a log of my workouts. I was doing a workout last night at a weight that was 50% more than when I started 8 months ago. There was no way I could have lifted the amount of weight I did last night when I started or I would have had to make an appointment with my chiropractor. This leads me to believe I am getting stronger - hence building muscle.
I have been eating at a deficit the whole 8 months and lost a little over 30 pounds. So, did I just strenthen the muscle I have and not built muscle? I truly do not understand what is happening.
Also, my understanding is that when you lift, you get little micro-tears in your muscle. When your body repairs the tears, it builds muscle. So - even when I eat at a deficit, my body has to repair the micro-tears I am creating by doing strength training. So it would seem that muscles would build up. I can accept that it wouldn't be as fast - but my body will repair itself.
If anyone who is responding has a link to a journal or other article on this subject, please share :-) Thanks!
I have been eating at a deficit the whole 8 months and lost a little over 30 pounds. So, did I just strenthen the muscle I have and not built muscle? I truly do not understand what is happening.
Also, my understanding is that when you lift, you get little micro-tears in your muscle. When your body repairs the tears, it builds muscle. So - even when I eat at a deficit, my body has to repair the micro-tears I am creating by doing strength training. So it would seem that muscles would build up. I can accept that it wouldn't be as fast - but my body will repair itself.
If anyone who is responding has a link to a journal or other article on this subject, please share :-) Thanks!
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Replies
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Well if your have never lifted previously, you are likely to get whats called newbie gains, depending on how large your deficit was i could see this being possible. Although it typically doesn't last beyond six months0
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bump...0
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This leads me to believe I am getting stronger - hence building muscle.
This is the root of your misunderstanding. You can gain strength without building muscle. Gaining strength is based on neuromusular adaptation. An oversimplification is; you are recruiting existng muscle fibers and training your neuromuscular system to lift more weight. Thus get stronger. There is only a slight relationship with getting stronger and building muscle. At some point you would max out and not be able to get stronger without building more muscle tissue. (hypertrophy)
Building muscle is hypertrophy. You can do this and not nessesarily get stronger. (though you likely will slightly) This is an anabolic process, thus it requires a calorie surplus. When you are in calorie deficit, you are essentially in a catabolic state. Your body can perform anabolic functions in a catabolic state.0 -
You can definitely gain strength without building new muscle mass. Basically your body just learns to do things more efficiently.
And yes, if you are new to lifting you can gain a small amount of muscle while on a deficit.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html0 -
Gaining muscle strength is DIFFERENT to growing muscle. Newbies can grow muscle while on a deficit but then it quickly stops. You need to be eating at a surplus to grow muscle for the most part. Fact.0
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I like to believe that the timing of the meals makes a difference.
If you eat at excess for breakfast and don't work out, the excess is gonna eventually be stored as fat. If you eat at excess around your workout, the excess cals and nutrients will be there to build muscle.*
I have no idea what I'm talking about*0 -
This leads me to believe I am getting stronger - hence building muscle.
This is the root of your misunderstanding. You can gain strength without building muscle. Gaining strength is based on neuromusular adaptation. An oversimplification is; you are recruiting existng muscle fibers and training your neuromuscular system to lift more weight. Thus get stronger. There is only a slight relationship with getting stronger and building muscle. At some point you would max out and not be able to get stronger without building more muscle tissue. (hypertrophy)
Building muscle is hypertrophy. You can do this and not nessesarily get stronger. (though you likely will slightly) This is an anabolic process, thus it requires a calorie surplus. When you are in calorie deficit, you are essentially in a catabolic state. Your body can perform anabolic functions in a catabolic state.
Best explanation ever.0 -
This leads me to believe I am getting stronger - hence building muscle.
This is the root of your misunderstanding. You can gain strength without building muscle. Gaining strength is based on neuromusular adaptation. An oversimplification is; you are recruiting existng muscle fibers and training your neuromuscular system to lift more weight. Thus get stronger. There is only a slight relationship with getting stronger and building muscle. At some point you would max out and not be able to get stronger without building more muscle tissue. (hypertrophy)
Building muscle is hypertrophy. You can do this and not nessesarily get stronger. (though you likely will slightly) This is an anabolic process, thus it requires a calorie surplus. When you are in calorie deficit, you are essentially in a catabolic state. Your body can perform anabolic functions in a catabolic state.
Best explanation ever.
Yep0 -
@mmapags - Thanks for sharing!
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Gaining muscle strength is DIFFERENT to growing muscle. Newbies can grow muscle while on a deficit but then it quickly stops. You need to be eating at a surplus to grow muscle for the most part. Fact.
I've seen research that supports this. Don;t have it on hand, you'll have to trust me.0 -
Bump!0
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This leads me to believe I am getting stronger - hence building muscle.
This is the root of your misunderstanding. You can gain strength without building muscle. Gaining strength is based on neuromusular adaptation. An oversimplification is; you are recruiting existng muscle fibers and training your neuromuscular system to lift more weight. Thus get stronger. There is only a slight relationship with getting stronger and building muscle. At some point you would max out and not be able to get stronger without building more muscle tissue. (hypertrophy)
Building muscle is hypertrophy. You can do this and not nessesarily get stronger. (though you likely will slightly) This is an anabolic process, thus it requires a calorie surplus. When you are in calorie deficit, you are essentially in a catabolic state. Your body can perform anabolic functions in a catabolic state.
Exactly.
This is what people are talking about when they say "newbie gains"0 -
In all seriousness, this makes sense to me. Just take in the idea of meal timing, intermittent fasting and overeating.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly3.htm
What do you experienced guys think?
The above poster makes sense too. Just thinking outside the box.0 -
This leads me to believe I am getting stronger - hence building muscle.
This is the root of your misunderstanding. You can gain strength without building muscle. Gaining strength is based on neuromusular adaptation. An oversimplification is; you are recruiting existng muscle fibers and training your neuromuscular system to lift more weight. Thus get stronger. There is only a slight relationship with getting stronger and building muscle. At some point you would max out and not be able to get stronger without building more muscle tissue. (hypertrophy)
Building muscle is hypertrophy. You can do this and not nessesarily get stronger. (though you likely will slightly) This is an anabolic process, thus it requires a calorie surplus. When you are in calorie deficit, you are essentially in a catabolic state. Your body can perform anabolic functions in a catabolic state.
Exactly.
This is what people are talking about when they say "newbie gains"
Dingdingding!
We have a winner0 -
There is a way to build muscle while on a calorie deficit, although it is next to impossible.
A popular misconception in fitness and nutrition circles is that it is impossible to build muscle and lose weight -- via a caloric deficit -- simultaneously. While this is not impossible to do, it can be quite difficult and requires several specific circumstances to be in place. First, you must be significantly overweight with a high body fat percentage. Second, you must consume a diet conducive to muscular hypertrophy. Third, you must engage in a consistent program of weight training.
Because the human body is designed to sacrifice muscle when losing weight as a survival mechanism, only a certain body type will permit the simultaneous growth of muscle and loss of overall mass. If you're significantly overweight, your body may be able to support increased muscle mass even on a caloric deficit, provided it has less fat to maintain. If you're relatively lean and/or muscular, however, it is much more difficult for your body to increase muscle mass while experiencing a caloric deficit
Protein Requirements
While a caloric deficit implies that you're eating less food overall, it is possible to increase your protein intake during a caloric deficit by adjusting your diet to include more protein-rich foods. To succeed in building muscle and losing weight simultaneously, consume 1.6 g of protein per kilogram of bodyweight daily. To meet this goal, you'll likely have to rely heavily on protein sources, such as meat, fish, beans, eggs and tofu. You may also consider a powdered protein supplement.
Training Requirements
To build muscle while losing weight, you'll have to train with a high degree of intensity. Since the body's natural inclination is to sacrifice muscle when losing weight, training is the only way to provide a stimulus that lets your body know that muscle is needed. To maximize this stimulus, focus of heavy, compound exercises, such as the bench press, shoulder press, bent-over row, squat and deadlift. For each exercise, perform three to four sets of eight to 12 repetitions for maximum muscular hypertrophy potential.
Other Lifestyle Requirements
When experiencing a caloric deficit, your body is under stress. This can inhibit muscular synthesis alone, but it becomes particularly significant when combined with other stresses, such as those deriving from the use of alcohol and drugs. These substances can have a negative impact on the production of important muscle-building hormones, such as testosterone. You should avoid them as much as possible.
In Short....be very overweight...eat a ton of protein, train as heavy as possible, and no booze.
References
•"Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition"; International Society of Sports Nutrition Position Stand: Protein and Exercise; B. Campbell, et al.; 2007
•"Designing Resistance Training Programs"; Steven J. Fleck; 2004
•"Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research"; Clinical and Experimental Research: Effects of Alcohol on Plasma Testosterone and Luteinizing Hormone Levels; Jack H. Mendelson, M.D., et al.; 20080 -
" The conventional wisdom around here is that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit. "
Hi ya, my take is unconventional and Yep you can build muscle whilst at a deficit. I don't like to do too much cardio, so chose to do heavy weights instead ( until failure on every set now) its a very dedicated type of training as I have to be really focused to achieve this each time. But the gains I have endured in 6 weeks I have even amazed myself! I must admit having the correct food intake and adjusting the macros to bias protein I believe is ultimately what is helping me achieve this..
Not sure if this would apply to everybody but it certainly applys to me... check the 2 photos of me in profile, and have a look at my diary if you wish..
lee0 -
This leads me to believe I am getting stronger - hence building muscle.
This is the root of your misunderstanding. You can gain strength without building muscle. Gaining strength is based on neuromusular adaptation. An oversimplification is; you are recruiting existng muscle fibers and training your neuromuscular system to lift more weight. Thus get stronger. There is only a slight relationship with getting stronger and building muscle. At some point you would max out and not be able to get stronger without building more muscle tissue. (hypertrophy)
Building muscle is hypertrophy. You can do this and not nessesarily get stronger. (though you likely will slightly) This is an anabolic process, thus it requires a calorie surplus. When you are in calorie deficit, you are essentially in a catabolic state. Your body can perform anabolic functions in a catabolic state.
Best explanation ever.
Yep
Adding to the yep0 -
According to the Angry Trainer you can - and I totally agree - I dont have huge muscles - but the work I have done in the gym over the past 2 years has definitely build more muscle than I used to have!!
http://angrytrainerfitness.com/2013/02/atf-classic-can-you-lose-fat-and-gain-muscle-at-the-same-time/
And here is Lyle McDonald and Alan Argon on the subject....
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html
And here is a discussion thread at Precision Nutrition with some good information - you might have to register (free) to see the discussion ..... http://www.precisionnutrition.com/members/showthread.php?t=395950 -
" The conventional wisdom around here is that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit. "
Hi ya, my take is unconventional and Yep you can build muscle whilst at a deficit. I don't like to do too much cardio, so chose to do heavy weights instead ( until failure on every set now) its a very dedicated type of training as I have to be really focused to achieve this each time. But the gains I have endured in 6 weeks I have even amazed myself! I must admit having the correct food intake and adjusting the macros to bias protein I believe is ultimately what is helping me achieve this..
Not sure if this would apply to everybody but it certainly applys to me... check the 2 photos of me in profile, and have a look at my diary if you wish..
lee
You lost some BF, making your muscles show more...that is different to gaining muscle.0 -
Thanks energizer, i have plenty of excess fat! well not so much as i did in December and I am quite happy to exchange it for muscle!0
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" The conventional wisdom around here is that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit. "
Hi ya, my take is unconventional and Yep you can build muscle whilst at a deficit. I don't like to do too much cardio, so chose to do heavy weights instead ( until failure on every set now) its a very dedicated type of training as I have to be really focused to achieve this each time. But the gains I have endured in 6 weeks I have even amazed myself! I must admit having the correct food intake and adjusting the macros to bias protein I believe is ultimately what is helping me achieve this..
Not sure if this would apply to everybody but it certainly applys to me... check the 2 photos of me in profile, and have a look at my diary if you wish..
lee
You lost some BF, making your muscles show more...that is different to gaining muscle.
Hi ya, lol... not according to the measurements i have recorded, unless we have a dodgy tape measure... but thanks0 -
" The conventional wisdom around here is that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit. "
Hi ya, my take is unconventional and Yep you can build muscle whilst at a deficit. I don't like to do too much cardio, so chose to do heavy weights instead ( until failure on every set now) its a very dedicated type of training as I have to be really focused to achieve this each time. But the gains I have endured in 6 weeks I have even amazed myself! I must admit having the correct food intake and adjusting the macros to bias protein I believe is ultimately what is helping me achieve this..
Not sure if this would apply to everybody but it certainly applys to me... check the 2 photos of me in profile, and have a look at my diary if you wish..
lee
You lost some BF, making your muscles show more...that is different to gaining muscle.
Hi ya, lol... not according to the measurements i have recorded, unless we have a dodgy tape measure... but thanks
You used a tape measure to determine you had gained LBM?
Had you been lifting before?0 -
http://www.livestrong.com/article/388082-can-you-lose-muscle-by-losing-weight/
Of course you can add muscle and lose weight. It happens all the time. For instance if you weigh 220 and have 30% BF and you drop to 200 but have 15% BF you have lost 20 lbs but gained lean muscle mass.0 -
This question is entirely academic and gets asked a million times more than necessary on this Site. Unless you are trying to get bouncer at the club levels of mass, for most people on mfp lifting in a deficit will give you the desired effect. You'll get stronger and you'll look better.
If I never hear the term newbie gains again in my life it will still be too soon.
Just work out0 -
" The conventional wisdom around here is that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit. "
Hi ya, my take is unconventional and Yep you can build muscle whilst at a deficit. I don't like to do too much cardio, so chose to do heavy weights instead ( until failure on every set now) its a very dedicated type of training as I have to be really focused to achieve this each time. But the gains I have endured in 6 weeks I have even amazed myself! I must admit having the correct food intake and adjusting the macros to bias protein I believe is ultimately what is helping me achieve this..
Not sure if this would apply to everybody but it certainly applys to me... check the 2 photos of me in profile, and have a look at my diary if you wish..
lee
You lost some BF, making your muscles show more...that is different to gaining muscle.
Hi ya, lol... not according to the measurements i have recorded, unless we have a dodgy tape measure... but thanks
You used a tape measure to determine you had gained LBM?
Had you been lifting before?
Yep 20 years ago to the extent of almost competition level ( well spotted ) I simply took my measurements in december by measuring arm size, neck, waist, chest and both thighs and calves... Reason: scales will slow down soon for the fat loss so need another way of determining if I am training and dieting correctly...0 -
http://www.livestrong.com/article/388082-can-you-lose-muscle-by-losing-weight/
Of course you can add muscle and lose weight. It happens all the time. For instance if you weigh 220 and have 30% BF and you drop to 200 but have 15% BF you have lost 20 lbs but gained lean muscle mass.
The math works - but the reality? Only if you are new to training, and only a few pounds if you are lean. If you are overweight, it can be more.
Livestrong is a terrible site to use for reference tbh.
Have a read of the one included in this thread:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/818594-building-muscle-and-losing-fat-at-the-same-time0 -
" The conventional wisdom around here is that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit. "
Hi ya, my take is unconventional and Yep you can build muscle whilst at a deficit. I don't like to do too much cardio, so chose to do heavy weights instead ( until failure on every set now) its a very dedicated type of training as I have to be really focused to achieve this each time. But the gains I have endured in 6 weeks I have even amazed myself! I must admit having the correct food intake and adjusting the macros to bias protein I believe is ultimately what is helping me achieve this..
Not sure if this would apply to everybody but it certainly applys to me... check the 2 photos of me in profile, and have a look at my diary if you wish..
lee
You lost some BF, making your muscles show more...that is different to gaining muscle.
Hi ya, lol... not according to the measurements i have recorded, unless we have a dodgy tape measure... but thanks
You used a tape measure to determine you had gained LBM?
Had you been lifting before?
Yep 20 years ago to the extent of almost competition level ( well spotted ) I simply took my measurements in december by measuring arm size, neck, waist, chest and both thighs and calves... Reason: scales will slow down soon for the fat loss so need another way of determining if I am training and dieting correctly...
When did you return to lifting?0 -
The Livestrong article cited 3 University studies.0
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http://www.livestrong.com/article/388082-can-you-lose-muscle-by-losing-weight/
Of course you can add muscle and lose weight. It happens all the time. For instance if you weigh 220 and have 30% BF and you drop to 200 but have 15% BF you have lost 20 lbs but gained lean muscle mass.
The math works - but the reality? Only if you are new to training, and only a few pounds if you are lean. If you are overweight, it can be more.
Livestrong is a terrible site to use for reference tbh.
Have a read of the one included in this thread:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/818594-building-muscle-and-losing-fat-at-the-same-time
Agree with Sara. This is a matter of ratio change. Fat reduces, therefore LBM exists at a higher ratio to the fat.0 -
Sar, I revisited lifting about 5 years ago for a year and started again 6 weeks ago... Lifestyle and laziness kept me from being lean and healthy..0
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