Can't Build Muscle while at a Deficit - Revisited
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Bolded the part that really is the important thing for many of us imo - and if I can/have maintained mine I will also be very happy.
I think the other thing that often gets missed because of all the nerding out with the studies and discussions whether or not you can gain on a deficit or not, and I am very guilty of forgetting to mention it a lot of the time, is the plethora of other benefits that strength training gives.
I probably was not clear enough as to why I was picking up on the study, so we are all good. I tend to try to clarify the situations when women can possibly gain muscle v's not as the thought of gaining mass can be worrying for many, and it really is not a concern and I would hate for them to be put off strength training because of that concern. As I mention, and as I am sure you are aware, there are so many other benefits to it, especially with regard to improving bone density which is particularly important for women.
Cliffs: we are good ;-)
Definitely. I have been lifting heavy for as long as I can remember and never "hulked out" which I see people worry about all the time. I know what you are talking about. I have always had more of a sprinter's build than an endurance runners build but that is probably partly genetic and partly thanks to a lifetime of sports. I continued to lift because the last thing I need is for that muscle to atrophy! (Plus the host of other benefits
) 0 -
Instead of hijacking another thread, I just decided to start a new one. The conventional wisdom around here is that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit. I work out 6 times per week - normally three cardio sessions and three weightlifting sessions. I keep a log of my workouts. I was doing a workout last night at a weight that was 50% more than when I started 8 months ago. There was no way I could have lifted the amount of weight I did last night when I started or I would have had to make an appointment with my chiropractor. This leads me to believe I am getting stronger - hence building muscle.
I have been eating at a deficit the whole 8 months and lost a little over 30 pounds. So, did I just strenthen the muscle I have and not built muscle? I truly do not understand what is happening.
Also, my understanding is that when you lift, you get little micro-tears in your muscle. When your body repairs the tears, it builds muscle. So - even when I eat at a deficit, my body has to repair the micro-tears I am creating by doing strength training. So it would seem that muscles would build up. I can accept that it wouldn't be as fast - but my body will repair itself.
If anyone who is responding has a link to a journal or other article on this subject, please share :-) Thanks!
getting stronger doesnt always equal gaining muscle.0 -
After reading this, I thought "Oh now I understand." But after reading all the subsequent posts, I am confused as ever! I need to read some of those references.
No you don't need to read the references. Read Gone Girl instead. It's excellent.
No matter what you read or how you read it, only one course of action will be recommended
Just work out.0 -
Damn you beat me to it. Congrats.This leads me to believe I am getting stronger - hence building muscle.
This is the root of your misunderstanding. You can gain strength without building muscle. Gaining strength is based on neuromusular adaptation. An oversimplification is; you are recruiting existng muscle fibers and training your neuromuscular system to lift more weight. Thus get stronger. There is only a slight relationship with getting stronger and building muscle. At some point you would max out and not be able to get stronger without building more muscle tissue. (hypertrophy)
Building muscle is hypertrophy. You can do this and not nessesarily get stronger. (though you likely will slightly) This is an anabolic process, thus it requires a calorie surplus. When you are in calorie deficit, you are essentially in a catabolic state. Your body can perform anabolic functions in a catabolic state.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
There is a way to build muscle while on a calorie deficit, although it is next to impossible.
A popular misconception in fitness and nutrition circles is that it is impossible to build muscle and lose weight -- via a caloric deficit -- simultaneously. While this is not impossible to do, it can be quite difficult and requires several specific circumstances to be in place. First, you must be significantly overweight with a high body fat percentage. Second, you must consume a diet conducive to muscular hypertrophy. Third, you must engage in a consistent program of weight training.
Because the human body is designed to sacrifice muscle when losing weight as a survival mechanism, only a certain body type will permit the simultaneous growth of muscle and loss of overall mass. If you're significantly overweight, your body may be able to support increased muscle mass even on a caloric deficit, provided it has less fat to maintain. If you're relatively lean and/or muscular, however, it is much more difficult for your body to increase muscle mass while experiencing a caloric deficit
Protein Requirements
While a caloric deficit implies that you're eating less food overall, it is possible to increase your protein intake during a caloric deficit by adjusting your diet to include more protein-rich foods. To succeed in building muscle and losing weight simultaneously, consume 1.6 g of protein per kilogram of bodyweight daily. To meet this goal, you'll likely have to rely heavily on protein sources, such as meat, fish, beans, eggs and tofu. You may also consider a powdered protein supplement.
Training Requirements
To build muscle while losing weight, you'll have to train with a high degree of intensity. Since the body's natural inclination is to sacrifice muscle when losing weight, training is the only way to provide a stimulus that lets your body know that muscle is needed. To maximize this stimulus, focus of heavy, compound exercises, such as the bench press, shoulder press, bent-over row, squat and deadlift. For each exercise, perform three to four sets of eight to 12 repetitions for maximum muscular hypertrophy potential.
Other Lifestyle Requirements
When experiencing a caloric deficit, your body is under stress. This can inhibit muscular synthesis alone, but it becomes particularly significant when combined with other stresses, such as those deriving from the use of alcohol and drugs. These substances can have a negative impact on the production of important muscle-building hormones, such as testosterone. You should avoid them as much as possible.
In Short....be very overweight...eat a ton of protein, train as heavy as possible, and no booze.
References
•"Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition"; International Society of Sports Nutrition Position Stand: Protein and Exercise; B. Campbell, et al.; 2007
•"Designing Resistance Training Programs"; Steven J. Fleck; 2004
•"Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research"; Clinical and Experimental Research: Effects of Alcohol on Plasma Testosterone and Luteinizing Hormone Levels; Jack H. Mendelson, M.D., et al.; 2008
Great post with lots of info and references to back it up.
Thank you0 -
You can get stronger without building muscle.
Think powerlifters or Oly weightlifters (those in the lower weight categories) - lifting massive weights. Then think of bodybuilders, not as strong but have a lot more muscle. There's training for strength and training for size, 2 different things.0 -
Just work out
Were men so that's about all we need to understand!
You guys get it easier for getting into shape.0 -
Untrained and "clinically obese" is most of the people on MFP. In fact it is most of the US. So that answers the questions doesn't it. Most people can gain muscle on a deficit.0
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http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/1/19.shortIt was concluded that weight training results in comparable gains in muscle area and strength for DPE and EO. Adding weight training exercise to a caloric restriction program results in maintenance of LBW compared with DO.
...
The increase of 0.43 kg in LBW for the DPE group is comparable to the largest increases reported in other dietplus-exercise studies. Zuti and Golding (5) and Lewis et al (27) report LBW increases of 0.5 and 1. 1 kg over 16and 17 wk, respectively.
In this article, they put 1 group on weight lifting plus diet, 1 group exercise only, 1 group diet only. In 16 weeks they developed 1/2 a kilo in lean body mass (muscle) (about 1 pound). They also cite a study where people gained up to 1.1 kg muscle in 17 weeks.
It seems (from this and a couple other studies) that there can be some muscle gain when in a deficit. I believe that people usually look for 1/2 a pound a month when 'bulking' (or maybe that's just women) so it is usually somewhere less than that but it has been done.
Couple of things here:
- the subjects were obese
- LBM =/= muscle, it also includes water weight
- they maintained LBM. That amount of variance is too small to determine gains due to inaccuracies of BF testing methods.
If you read the study, they determined muscle increases through both hydrostatic measurements and taking physical measurements as well as increases in strength.
Which are not totally accurate and the changes are within the inaccuracies seen in them. And as I said, LBM =/= muscle as it includes water weight. Strength =/= muscle gains.
ETA: I am not actually saying that gains cannot be made by overweight/obese people on a deficit who are new to training. I just do not think that is a good study to show it.
Radiograph analyses
Changes in the arm areas are presented in Table 1 and
are graphically shown in Figure 1. The changes in totalarm-area (fat and muscle-bone) range from a 6.08 cm2
(2.4%) increase for the EO group to a -4.79 cm2 (- 1.9%)
decrease for the DO group. The C and EO group changes
are statistically more positive than the DO group changes.
Analysis of the muscle-bone area changes show that the
DPE and EO groups significantly increase upper-arm
muscle area by 1 1 .23 cm2 (6.4%) and 10.44 cm2 (6.0%),
respectively , compared with the C and DO groups (Table
1). Fat area changes (total arm area minus muscle-bone
area) range from -0.69 cm2 (1.0%) for the C group to
- 10.60 cm2 (12.3%) for the DPE group. The DPE group
significantly reduced its mean fat area compared with C.
I'd say that data is pretty solid... I'll take my data from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition over a random stranger on the internet anyday.
You know whats funny about science and most individuals like doctors, nutritionists, etc.... the majority of them look horrible. Its text book regurgitation. No one pactices that they preach.
She said it is totally possible, but again FINITE. These studies are conducted in untrained to minimally trained individuals. If you take someone who had been training for a few years and apply the same principles the results will vary vastly (hence the term newbie gains).
.5kg over 16 weeks in people who havent never had training experience? Wow, that is optimal....0 -
Untrained and "clinically obese" is most of the people on MFP. In fact it is most of the US. So that answers the questions doesn't it. Most people can gain muscle on a deficit.
The OP is no clinically obese, so it is useful to provide information that relates to her. It is also important to be clear as to who gains on a deficit relates to when making general statements. It is incredibly hard for a woman to make any gains on a surplus, let alone a deficit, even in the right circumstances.
ETA: not sure how many are on here, but 36% of Americans are 'obese' and 29% of people in the UK are (not sure globally)0 -
What is frustrating on these boards is how people stick to bad advice even when presented with actually scientific evidence. I don't know if being a couch potato disqualifies anyone from being a scientist. The facts are if you have stores of fat and are working out you can gain muscle and lose weight. The question was posed by someone who still wants to lose and additional 26 lbs. Although I cannot tabulate her BMI based on that I would bet it is close to 30 which is clinically obese. So yes she can gain muscle and lose weight. Why is this some kind of cult belief for you guys? I would clearly concede that if you have 10% BF you could not gain muscle on a deficit, but that is not the people on this site.
The fact that on a deficit you can, grow your hair, heal wounds and repair muscle, tells you you body can make cells while on a deficit. A healing wound and building of muscle is the same biological process.0 -
This question is entirely academic and gets asked a million times more than necessary on this Site. Unless you are trying to get bouncer at the club levels of mass, for most people on mfp lifting in a deficit will give you the desired effect. You'll get stronger and you'll look better.
If I never hear the term newbie gains again in my life it will still be too soon.
Just work out
Love it! ↑↑↑
I push hard on both cardio and lifting. My abilities are increasing, my weight is dropping and my body composition is changing. I don't care what you want to call it. It hardly matters. Maybe these are just "newbie gains", but that's not a bad thing. None of us will be on deficit forever. If these are "newbie gains" then they can be the base for later significant gains when I'm not on deficit.0 -
bump for reading later0
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This is the root of your misunderstanding. You can gain strength without building muscle. Gaining strength is based on neuromusular adaptation. An oversimplification is; you are recruiting existng muscle fibers and training your neuromuscular system to lift more weight. Thus get stronger. There is only a slight relationship with getting stronger and building muscle. At some point you would max out and not be able to get stronger without building more muscle tissue. (hypertrophy)
Building muscle is hypertrophy. You can do this and not nessesarily get stronger. (though you likely will slightly) This is an anabolic process, thus it requires a calorie surplus. When you are in calorie deficit, you are essentially in a catabolic state. Your body can perform anabolic functions in a catabolic state.
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mmapags - you are awesome. this is the bestestestest explanation ever!0 -
Bump!0
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Just work out
I'm pretty much in love with your responses
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Bump, good info in here.0
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Bump0
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What he said.This question is entirely academic and gets asked a million times more than necessary on this Site. Unless you are trying to get bouncer at the club levels of mass, for most people on mfp lifting in a deficit will give you the desired effect. You'll get stronger and you'll look better.
If I never hear the term newbie gains again in my life it will still be too soon.
Just work out0
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