Can't Build Muscle while at a Deficit - Revisited

leaderzzz

" The conventional wisdom around here is that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit. "

Hi ya, my take is unconventional and Yep you can build muscle whilst at a deficit. I don't like to do too much cardio, so chose to do heavy weights instead ( until failure on every set now) its a very dedicated type of training as I have to be really focused to achieve this each time. But the gains I have endured in 6 weeks I have even amazed myself! I must admit having the correct food intake and adjusting the macros to bias protein I believe is ultimately what is helping me achieve this..

Not sure if this would apply to everybody but it certainly applys to me... check the 2 photos of me in profile, and have a look at my diary if you wish..

lee

You lost some BF, making your muscles show more...that is different to gaining muscle.

Hi ya, lol... not according to the measurements i have recorded, unless we have a dodgy tape measure... but thanks

Sarauk2sf

" The conventional wisdom around here is that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit. "

Hi ya, my take is unconventional and Yep you can build muscle whilst at a deficit. I don't like to do too much cardio, so chose to do heavy weights instead ( until failure on every set now) its a very dedicated type of training as I have to be really focused to achieve this each time. But the gains I have endured in 6 weeks I have even amazed myself! I must admit having the correct food intake and adjusting the macros to bias protein I believe is ultimately what is helping me achieve this..

Not sure if this would apply to everybody but it certainly applys to me... check the 2 photos of me in profile, and have a look at my diary if you wish..

lee

You lost some BF, making your muscles show more...that is different to gaining muscle.

Hi ya, lol... not according to the measurements i have recorded, unless we have a dodgy tape measure... but thanks

You used a tape measure to determine you had gained LBM?


Had you been lifting before?

mdh185

http://www.livestrong.com/article/388082-can-you-lose-muscle-by-losing-weight/

Of course you can add muscle and lose weight. It happens all the time. For instance if you weigh 220 and have 30% BF and you drop to 200 but have 15% BF you have lost 20 lbs but gained lean muscle mass.

DavPul

This question is entirely academic and gets asked a million times more than necessary on this Site. Unless you are trying to get bouncer at the club levels of mass, for most people on mfp lifting in a deficit will give you the desired effect. You'll get stronger and you'll look better.

If I never hear the term newbie gains again in my life it will still be too soon.

Just work out

leaderzzz

" The conventional wisdom around here is that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit. "

Hi ya, my take is unconventional and Yep you can build muscle whilst at a deficit. I don't like to do too much cardio, so chose to do heavy weights instead ( until failure on every set now) its a very dedicated type of training as I have to be really focused to achieve this each time. But the gains I have endured in 6 weeks I have even amazed myself! I must admit having the correct food intake and adjusting the macros to bias protein I believe is ultimately what is helping me achieve this..

Not sure if this would apply to everybody but it certainly applys to me... check the 2 photos of me in profile, and have a look at my diary if you wish..

lee

You lost some BF, making your muscles show more...that is different to gaining muscle.

Hi ya, lol... not according to the measurements i have recorded, unless we have a dodgy tape measure... but thanks

You used a tape measure to determine you had gained LBM?


Had you been lifting before?

Yep 20 years ago to the extent of almost competition level ( well spotted ) I simply took my measurements in december by measuring arm size, neck, waist, chest and both thighs and calves... Reason: scales will slow down soon for the fat loss so need another way of determining if I am training and dieting correctly...

Sarauk2sf

http://www.livestrong.com/article/388082-can-you-lose-muscle-by-losing-weight/

Of course you can add muscle and lose weight. It happens all the time. For instance if you weigh 220 and have 30% BF and you drop to 200 but have 15% BF you have lost 20 lbs but gained lean muscle mass.

The math works - but the reality? Only if you are new to training, and only a few pounds if you are lean. If you are overweight, it can be more.

Livestrong is a terrible site to use for reference tbh.

Have a read of the one included in this thread:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/818594-building-muscle-and-losing-fat-at-the-same-time

Sarauk2sf

" The conventional wisdom around here is that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit. "

Hi ya, my take is unconventional and Yep you can build muscle whilst at a deficit. I don't like to do too much cardio, so chose to do heavy weights instead ( until failure on every set now) its a very dedicated type of training as I have to be really focused to achieve this each time. But the gains I have endured in 6 weeks I have even amazed myself! I must admit having the correct food intake and adjusting the macros to bias protein I believe is ultimately what is helping me achieve this..

Not sure if this would apply to everybody but it certainly applys to me... check the 2 photos of me in profile, and have a look at my diary if you wish..

lee

You lost some BF, making your muscles show more...that is different to gaining muscle.

Hi ya, lol... not according to the measurements i have recorded, unless we have a dodgy tape measure... but thanks

You used a tape measure to determine you had gained LBM?


Had you been lifting before?

Yep 20 years ago to the extent of almost competition level ( well spotted ) I simply took my measurements in december by measuring arm size, neck, waist, chest and both thighs and calves... Reason: scales will slow down soon for the fat loss so need another way of determining if I am training and dieting correctly...

When did you return to lifting?

mdh185

The Livestrong article cited 3 University studies.

1ConcreteGirl

http://www.livestrong.com/article/388082-can-you-lose-muscle-by-losing-weight/

Of course you can add muscle and lose weight. It happens all the time. For instance if you weigh 220 and have 30% BF and you drop to 200 but have 15% BF you have lost 20 lbs but gained lean muscle mass.

The math works - but the reality? Only if you are new to training, and only a few pounds if you are lean. If you are overweight, it can be more.

Livestrong is a terrible site to use for reference tbh.

Have a read of the one included in this thread:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/818594-building-muscle-and-losing-fat-at-the-same-time

Agree with Sara. This is a matter of ratio change. Fat reduces, therefore LBM exists at a higher ratio to the fat.

leaderzzz

Sar, I revisited lifting about 5 years ago for a year and started again 6 weeks ago... Lifestyle and laziness kept me from being lean and healthy..

Sarauk2sf

The Livestrong article cited 3 University studies.

Did you read them?

Sarauk2sf

Sar, I revisited lifting about 5 years ago for a year and started again 6 weeks ago... Lifestyle and laziness kept me from being lean and healthy..

OK - makes more sense. You fall into the 'exceptions' category. Your size gains will from a combination of glycogen/water in the muscle plus there may well be some mass gains (sorry, I assumed you had been lifting for a while).

One of the exceptions are 'returning to lifting' gains which are usually not that much, however, when combined with having some weight to lose (no offense :flowerforyou: ), you can actually make mass gains on a deficit - the amount depends on a bunch of variables and is finite - but it is definitely a possibility.

BarackMeLikeAHurricane

Myofibrillar hypertrophy =/= sarcoplasmic hypertrophy

Lifting_Knitter

This leads me to believe I am getting stronger - hence building muscle.

This is the root of your misunderstanding. You can gain strength without building muscle. Gaining strength is based on neuromusular adaptation. An oversimplification is; you are recruiting existng muscle fibers and training your neuromuscular system to lift more weight. Thus get stronger. There is only a slight relationship with getting stronger and building muscle. At some point you would max out and not be able to get stronger without building more muscle tissue. (hypertrophy)

Building muscle is hypertrophy. You can do this and not nessesarily get stronger. (though you likely will slightly) This is an anabolic process, thus it requires a calorie surplus. When you are in calorie deficit, you are essentially in a catabolic state. Your body can perform anabolic functions in a catabolic state.

Thank you for explaining this so well!

CristinaL1983

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/1/19.short

It was concluded that weight training results in comparable gains in muscle area and strength for DPE and EO. Adding weight training exercise to a caloric restriction program results in maintenance of LBW compared with DO.
...
The increase of 0.43 kg in LBW for the DPE group is comparable to the largest increases reported in other dietplus-exercise studies. Zuti and Golding (5) and Lewis et al (27) report LBW increases of 0.5 and 1. 1 kg over 16and 17 wk, respectively.

In this article, they put 1 group on weight lifting plus diet, 1 group exercise only, 1 group diet only. In 16 weeks they developed 1/2 a kilo in lean body mass (muscle) (about 1 pound). They also cite a study where people gained up to 1.1 kg muscle in 17 weeks.

It seems (from this and a couple other studies) that there can be some muscle gain when in a deficit. I believe that people usually look for 1/2 a pound a month when 'bulking' (or maybe that's just women) so it is usually somewhere less than that but it has been done.

leaderzzz

Sar, I revisited lifting about 5 years ago for a year and started again 6 weeks ago... Lifestyle and laziness kept me from being lean and healthy..

OK - makes more sense. You fall into the 'exceptions' category. Your size gains will from a combination of glycogen/water in the muscle plus there may well be some mass gains (sorry, I assumed you had been lifting for a while).

One of the exceptions are 'returning to lifting' gains which are usually not that much, however, when combined with having some weight to lose (no offense :flowerforyou: ), you can actually make mass gains on a deficit - the amount depends on a bunch of variables and is finite - but it is definitely a possibility.

Sar... I have more than some weight to lose! But thanks anyway! :blushing: about 40 more pounds in reality (10-12% BF target), I did mention I was also amazed at the size increase!

Sarauk2sf

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/1/19.short

It was concluded that weight training results in comparable gains in muscle area and strength for DPE and EO. Adding weight training exercise to a caloric restriction program results in maintenance of LBW compared with DO.
...
The increase of 0.43 kg in LBW for the DPE group is comparable to the largest increases reported in other dietplus-exercise studies. Zuti and Golding (5) and Lewis et al (27) report LBW increases of 0.5 and 1. 1 kg over 16and 17 wk, respectively.

In this article, they put 1 group on weight lifting plus diet, 1 group exercise only, 1 group diet only. In 16 weeks they developed 1/2 a kilo in lean body mass (muscle) (about 1 pound). They also cite a study where people gained up to 1.1 kg muscle in 17 weeks.

It seems (from this and a couple other studies) that there can be some muscle gain when in a deficit. I believe that people usually look for 1/2 a pound a month when 'bulking' (or maybe that's just women) so it is usually somewhere less than that but it has been done.

Couple of things here:

- the subjects were obese
- LBM =/= muscle, it also includes water weight
- they maintained LBM. That amount of variance is too small to determine gains due to inaccuracies of BF testing methods.

BrownEyeAngel

I agree! :happy:

CristinaL1983

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/1/19.short

It was concluded that weight training results in comparable gains in muscle area and strength for DPE and EO. Adding weight training exercise to a caloric restriction program results in maintenance of LBW compared with DO.
...
The increase of 0.43 kg in LBW for the DPE group is comparable to the largest increases reported in other dietplus-exercise studies. Zuti and Golding (5) and Lewis et al (27) report LBW increases of 0.5 and 1. 1 kg over 16and 17 wk, respectively.

In this article, they put 1 group on weight lifting plus diet, 1 group exercise only, 1 group diet only. In 16 weeks they developed 1/2 a kilo in lean body mass (muscle) (about 1 pound). They also cite a study where people gained up to 1.1 kg muscle in 17 weeks.

It seems (from this and a couple other studies) that there can be some muscle gain when in a deficit. I believe that people usually look for 1/2 a pound a month when 'bulking' (or maybe that's just women) so it is usually somewhere less than that but it has been done.

Couple of things here:

- the subjects were obese
- LBM =/= muscle, it also includes water weight
- they maintained LBM. That amount of variance is too small to determine gains due to inaccuracies of BF testing methods.

If you read the study, they determined muscle increases through both hydrostatic measurements and taking physical measurements as well as increases in strength. Edit to add: Also through radiograph.

mdh185

So for me, since Nov. I have been running a calorie deficit. My starting wt. was 220 BF 25%,my waist was 38 my thigh 21 and my biceps 15. Today I am 205 17%BF waist 34, thighs 22 and biceps 16 1/4. Did this not happen? Or am I another anomaly. A perfectly lean body builder cannot gain muscle in a deficit but if you have stored calories (fat) and are taking in enough protein, you can lose weigh,t gain muscle and run a deficit.