Why do so many people think meat is essential? (NOT DEBATE)

GoldspursX3

bump

iceqieen

meat is not essential in the Homo sapiens diet, and a carefully planned vegetarian diet can be really healthy.

I agree with people who said that the bad rap that vegetarian diets get comes from people who just cut out meat (or even all animal products) and don't realise they have to replace it with other foods that will provide adequate protein and other nutrients that come from meat/animal products. That fact does not make vegetarian diets unhealthy. What's unhealthy is cutting foods out of the diet without focusing on other ways to get the same nutrients.

what annoys me is when people try to claim that humans don't naturally eat meat, or that we didn't evolve for it.... we did. And notice in my first sentence I wrote "homo sapiens" not "human" - because homo sapiens is the only species of human to have been able to survive on a vegetarian diet, and that's only possible with the invention of agriculture (something no other species managed to do) - i.e. mass production of plants high in protein. While pre-agricultural humans (Homo sapiens and others) would have eaten those plants (including wild wheat where it grew naturally, btw!!), they would not have been available all year round, or in anything approaching the quantities that agriculture can produce, so they could not get adequate protein from plants.

Indians living off a 100% vegetarian diet, well that's only been possible since the start of agriculture (which in India dates back many thousands of years as the Indus valley was one of the first known areas to start practicing agriculture, so they could have been vegetarians comparatively early on, but probably weren't as you have to be very affluent before you start refusing to eat certain foods....). the human ecological niche is adaptability, and Homo sapiens have taken that further than any other species of human, and the fact is we can if desired survive on a plant only diet. But IMO it's a matter of personal preference, I don't believe there is anything wrong with eating meat, provided the animal's suffering is kept to a minimum, i.e. killed quickly, and farmed animals being treated humanely and fed their natural diet.

And I just want to make the point again about affluence... cutting foods out of your diet that you're not allergic/intolerant to is a luxury that affluent people have. Most people from most periods in history and prehistory simply ate what foods were available to them at the time. Many post-agricultural people in history that ate a vegetarian diet did so out of necessity, because it was easier to grow plant proteins than to acquire animals to eat. People in pre-agricultural societes could not possibly gather enough plant protein to not need hunted meat (or to catch fish) as well. Modern people (on the whole) really don't think about how much of their food is imported, and even what it would be like if they could *only* obtain locally grown food, like it was even just 100 years ago. You'd go for most of the year with many kinds of foods unavailable. When my grandparents were small, many fruits we take for granted nowadays were exotic treats barely seen in the UK.

Even with agriculture, without transporting food, you have the harvest season, and you can't store the food all year round. in most parts of the world, without the ability to transport food, being vegetarian is not a choice. And while this does not apply nowadays in affluent countries when you have enough money and access to supermarkets that have all kinds of food all year round, when it comes to making ethical choices, being vegetarian has to be offset against the environmental cost of "food miles".

And you have to be affluent before you even have the luxury of making choices like that to begin with, because most people for most of the time people have existed, have simply eaten whatever was available. Pre-industrial vegetarians where not vegetarian by choice, but by necessity. All pre-agricultural people ate meat and/or fish out of necessity. Choice is the result of affluence.

Just wanted to say - I love your reply.

Dannybravo1

because meat is natural to the human being, i tried a veg lifestyle to try and lose weight and i did! but all in my muscles! lol ive lost 160+ lbs on a nice meat and veg diet high protein worked for me.

gracielynn1011

Some people are uneducated on the health benefits that a vegetarian diet offers. I am a meat eater, but I try to limit it. The fat content in some meats can certainly over ride any protein benefits that it offers. My family thinks I am weird now, I could just imagine what they would think if I went vegetarian. Of course, I come from a family that thinks that it's not a real meal if there isn't some form of meat deep fried in a skillet of lard. Sometimes family dinners are disgusting.

iAMsmiling

*looks confused* How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

Exactly

AlsDonkBoxSquat

The answer to this question is usually based on the person conveying it. Sometimes it will be born out of concern(based on Ignorance) that you are not getting the right nutrition to remain healthy and other times it will said in a derogatory way(once again based on ignorance). Basically this idea is based upon an antiquated nutritional system that believes meat and dairy are the only ways to obtain certain dietary needs e.g. protein, calcium, iron etc. There is a abundance of evidence that not only supports the concept of an adequate non-meat diet, but also evidence that shows that not eating meat or animal products is much healthier for you if done properly. As meat consumption is seen as the norm you will encounter a lot of ignorance manifesting in displays of both concern and other times down right insulting arguments .People are usually are frightened by new concepts

here is an example of some data collected.

The China Study (2005) is a book by T. Colin Campbell, Jacob Gould Schurman Professor Emeritus of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University, and his son Thomas M. Campbell II, a physician. It examines the relationship between the consumption of animal products and a variety of chronic illnesses, such as coronary heart disease, diabetes, and cancers of the breast, prostate and bowel.[2] The book had sold 750,000 copies as of January 2013.[3] It is one of America's best-selling books about nutrition.[4]

The China Study of the title is taken from the China-Cornell-Oxford Project, a 20-year study that began in 1983 and was conducted jointly by the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine, Cornell University, and the University of Oxford.[5] T. Colin Campbell was one of the directors of the project, described by The New York Times in 1990 as "the Grand Prix of epidemiology".[6]

The study examined mortality rates from 48 forms of cancer and other chronic diseases from 1973 to 75 in 65 counties in China, and correlated them with 1983–84 dietary surveys and blood-work from 6,500 people, 100 from each county. It concluded that counties with a high consumption of animal-based foods in 1983–84 were more likely to have had higher death rates from "Western" diseases as of 1973–75, while the opposite was true for counties that ate more plant foods in 1983–84. The study was conducted in those counties because they had genetically similar populations that tended, over generations, to live in the same way in the same place, and eat diets specific to those regions.[7]

The authors conclude that people who eat a plant-based/vegan diet—avoiding animal products such as beef, pork, poultry, fish, eggs, cheese, and milk, and reducing their intake of processed foods and refined carbohydrates—will escape, reduce or reverse the development of chronic diseases. They also recommend adequate amounts of sunshine to maintain sufficient levels of vitamin D, and supplements of vitamin B12 in case of complete avoidance of animal products. etc,etc

Good luck making your own mind up,its your life to live so don't let anyone tell you how to live it. enjoy

The China Study has been thoroughly debated on mfp on other treads. My understanding is that while it's a very large study, it's also extremely flawed.

d2footballJRC

Meat allows a variety of proteins, only ignorant people are saying you can't get protein unless you eat meat. Meat on average will allow an easier run at higher protein numbers as well. Vegans and Vegetarians can get their protein but if they want to get all the Amino Acids if they are trying to build muscle they have to plan a bit but it's very very doable.

EvgeniZyntx

As a father of teen-age women, I have come to view veg*ism a bit suspect within certain circles. It is both a personal lifestyle choice that gets my respect for the dietary, social, economic and ethical reasons that many espouse and poor dietary choice possibly bordering on orthorexia and other eating disorders for others. This is not reductive and I am in no way suggesting that this is the case for any individual here (a necessary disclaimer when so many things are taken out of context).

Here is my anecdote - I overheard a friend of my 18 year-old explaining to my 8 year old that she should "not eat meat because it is unhealthy and will make her fat". Now normally this would just get swept aside with a quick explanation without an issue except that my 8 year old has a limited diet due to a very strong taste sense - and has absolutely no need (at 8, skinny) to be told that a primary food group for her is unhealthy - especially based on poor nutritional information.

Veg'ism is a restrictive dietary choice. Any restrictive diet, be it by calorie or food group creates a risk of nutritional deficiencies which usually need more attention than eating more openly and with greater variety. My only concern, is really among the friends of my daughters that are creating a community of risk - not because they should eat meat - because some of their "fitness" and diet practices are unhealthy. I'm personally seeing a higher preavalence among young veg'ns of bad nutritional choices than I would like to see.

Then of course, my daughter brought home another girl for a weekend that only eats "white" food (from plain chicken to asparagus). In. my. house. I think I mumbled rude words in my kitchen all weekend.

Gallowmere1984

Some people are uneducated on the health benefits that a vegetarian diet offers. I am a meat eater, but I try to limit it. The fat content in some meats can certainly over ride any protein benefits that it offers. My family thinks I am weird now, I could just imagine what they would think if I went vegetarian. Of course, I come from a family that thinks that it's not a real meal if there isn't some form of meat deep fried in a skillet of lard. Sometimes family dinners are disgusting.

I feel your pain there. 90% of my family members are...well...disgusting blobs of ****. I figured out pretty quickly what not to eat by paying attention to what they do eat. Really, deep fried anything is the only 'food group' that I won't touch.

neanderthin

The answer to this question is usually based on the person conveying it. Sometimes it will be born out of concern(based on Ignorance) that you are not getting the right nutrition to remain healthy and other times it will said in a derogatory way(once again based on ignorance). Basically this idea is based upon an antiquated nutritional system that believes meat and dairy are the only ways to obtain certain dietary needs e.g. protein, calcium, iron etc. There is a abundance of evidence that not only supports the concept of an adequate non-meat diet, but also evidence that shows that not eating meat or animal products is much healthier for you if done properly. As meat consumption is seen as the norm you will encounter a lot of ignorance manifesting in displays of both concern and other times down right insulting arguments .People are usually are frightened by new concepts

here is an example of some data collected.

The China Study (2005) is a book by T. Colin Campbell, Jacob Gould Schurman Professor Emeritus of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University, and his son Thomas M. Campbell II, a physician. It examines the relationship between the consumption of animal products and a variety of chronic illnesses, such as coronary heart disease, diabetes, and cancers of the breast, prostate and bowel.[2] The book had sold 750,000 copies as of January 2013.[3] It is one of America's best-selling books about nutrition.[4]

The China Study of the title is taken from the China-Cornell-Oxford Project, a 20-year study that began in 1983 and was conducted jointly by the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine, Cornell University, and the University of Oxford.[5] T. Colin Campbell was one of the directors of the project, described by The New York Times in 1990 as "the Grand Prix of epidemiology".[6]

The study examined mortality rates from 48 forms of cancer and other chronic diseases from 1973 to 75 in 65 counties in China, and correlated them with 1983–84 dietary surveys and blood-work from 6,500 people, 100 from each county. It concluded that counties with a high consumption of animal-based foods in 1983–84 were more likely to have had higher death rates from "Western" diseases as of 1973–75, while the opposite was true for counties that ate more plant foods in 1983–84. The study was conducted in those counties because they had genetically similar populations that tended, over generations, to live in the same way in the same place, and eat diets specific to those regions.[7]

The authors conclude that people who eat a plant-based/vegan diet—avoiding animal products such as beef, pork, poultry, fish, eggs, cheese, and milk, and reducing their intake of processed foods and refined carbohydrates—will escape, reduce or reverse the development of chronic diseases. They also recommend adequate amounts of sunshine to maintain sufficient levels of vitamin D, and supplements of vitamin B12 in case of complete avoidance of animal products. etc,etc

Good luck making your own mind up,its your life to live so don't let anyone tell you how to live it. enjoy

The China Study has been thoroughly debated on mfp on other treads. My understanding is that while it's a very large study, it's also extremely flawed.

Extremely is an understatement.......the actual raw data shows quite a different picture than a vegan trying to push a book for profit.

GaiaGirl1992

I think most of those type of people are either brainwashed by the old food recommendations that say you MUST eat red meat or else, or they know junk food vegetarians who are malnourished. My dad is one of those people, who says I get no protein because I don't get meat (um 60+ grams per day say otherwise!) so just smile politely at anyone who likes to argue and move on with life!

neanderthin

As a father of teen-age women, I have come to view veg*ism a bit suspect within certain circles. It is both a personal lifestyle choice that gets my respect for the dietary, social, economic and ethical reasons that many espouse and poor dietary choice possibly bordering on orthorexia and other eating disorders for others. This is not reductive and I am in no way suggesting that this is the case for any individual here (a necessary disclaimer when so many things are taken out of context).

Here is my anecdote - I overheard a friend of my 18 year-old explaining to my 8 year old that she should "not eat meat because it is unhealthy and will make her fat". Now normally this would just get swept aside with a quick explanation without an issue except that my 8 year old has a limited diet due to a very strong taste sense - and has absolutely no need (at 8, skinny) to be told that a primary food group for her is unhealthy - especially based on poor nutritional information.

Veg'ism is a restrictive dietary choice. Any restrictive diet, be it by calorie or food group creates a risk of nutritional deficiencies which usually need more attention than eating more openly and with greater variety. My only concern, is really among the friends of my daughters that are creating a community of risk - not because they should eat meat - because some of their "fitness" and diet practices are unhealthy. I'm personally seeing a higher preavalence among young veg'ns of bad nutritional choices than I would like to see.

Then of course, my daughter brought home another girl for a weekend that only eats "white" food (from plain chicken to asparagus). In. my. house. I think I mumbled rude words in my kitchen all weekend.

I feel you pain. I'm a chef, trained in french, asian and Italian cuisine mostly, and our only daughter seems fairly balanced in her view of food and nutrition in general, but some lifelong friends that have really serious food behavioral problems have all been vegan, low fat, gluten free, no dairy, no white food, no BBQ'ed food, you name it at one time or another......and now that she's in her mid twenties and I see her and her friends a few times a year, nothings changed, many of her friends still have poor relationships with food.

FitBeto

bangs

Gallowmere1984

I think most of those type of people are either brainwashed by the old food recommendations that say you MUST eat red meat or else, or they know junk food vegetarians who are malnourished. My dad is one of those people, who says I get no protein because I don't get meat (um 60+ grams per day say otherwise!) so just smile politely at anyone who likes to argue and move on with life!

If the numbers in your profile are correct, you are just proving the point of the meat eaters. 60g for a 1750+ calorie diet is a bad joke. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129150/

EmilyOfTheSun

It's not essential.
If you enjoy eating meat, freakin eat it.
If you wanna be a vegetarian, freakin be a vegetarian.
If anyone gives you *kitten*, bash them on the side of the head with a spiky pineapple.

Ophidion

The China Study was just an example. As with most study's they are easy to critique and find flaws.Especially if you have opposing beliefs to the outcome of said study (Not I'm suggesting that you do) I do agree that a study of that magnitude will have its faults especially when its an observational study as opposed to a study done in an controlled environment, which is obviously impossible considering the amount of time, people etc. But then the same logic for these flaws can be applied to any other study of this magnitude. Anyway it was only meant as an example.........

Ophidion

The answer to this question is usually based on the person conveying it. Sometimes it will be born out of concern(based on Ignorance) that you are not getting the right nutrition to remain healthy and other times it will said in a derogatory way(once again based on ignorance). Basically this idea is based upon an antiquated nutritional system that believes meat and dairy are the only ways to obtain certain dietary needs e.g. protein, calcium, iron etc. There is a abundance of evidence that not only supports the concept of an adequate non-meat diet, but also evidence that shows that not eating meat or animal products is much healthier for you if done properly. As meat consumption is seen as the norm you will encounter a lot of ignorance manifesting in displays of both concern and other times down right insulting arguments .People are usually are frightened by new concepts

here is an example of some data collected.

The China Study (2005) is a book by T. Colin Campbell, Jacob Gould Schurman Professor Emeritus of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University, and his son Thomas M. Campbell II, a physician. It examines the relationship between the consumption of animal products and a variety of chronic illnesses, such as coronary heart disease, diabetes, and cancers of the breast, prostate and bowel.[2] The book had sold 750,000 copies as of January 2013.[3] It is one of America's best-selling books about nutrition.[4]

The China Study of the title is taken from the China-Cornell-Oxford Project, a 20-year study that began in 1983 and was conducted jointly by the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine, Cornell University, and the University of Oxford.[5] T. Colin Campbell was one of the directors of the project, described by The New York Times in 1990 as "the Grand Prix of epidemiology".[6]

The study examined mortality rates from 48 forms of cancer and other chronic diseases from 1973 to 75 in 65 counties in China, and correlated them with 1983–84 dietary surveys and blood-work from 6,500 people, 100 from each county. It concluded that counties with a high consumption of animal-based foods in 1983–84 were more likely to have had higher death rates from "Western" diseases as of 1973–75, while the opposite was true for counties that ate more plant foods in 1983–84. The study was conducted in those counties because they had genetically similar populations that tended, over generations, to live in the same way in the same place, and eat diets specific to those regions.[7]

The authors conclude that people who eat a plant-based/vegan diet—avoiding animal products such as beef, pork, poultry, fish, eggs, cheese, and milk, and reducing their intake of processed foods and refined carbohydrates—will escape, reduce or reverse the development of chronic diseases. They also recommend adequate amounts of sunshine to maintain sufficient levels of vitamin D, and supplements of vitamin B12 in case of complete avoidance of animal products. etc,etc

Good luck making your own mind up,its your life to live so don't let anyone tell you how to live it. enjoy

The China Study has been thoroughly debated on mfp on other treads. My understanding is that while it's a very large study, it's also extremely flawed.

The China Study was just an example. As with most study's they are easy to critique and find flaws.Especially if you have opposing beliefs to the outcome of said study (Not I'm suggesting that you do) I do agree that a study of that magnitude will have its faults especially when its an observational study as opposed to a study done in an controlled environment, which is obviously impossible considering the amount of time, people etc. But then the same logic for these flaws can be applied to any other study of this magnitude. Anyway it was only meant as an example......... p.s sorry for the double post.

sunsnstatheart

As a father of teen-age women, I have come to view veg*ism a bit suspect within certain circles. It is both a personal lifestyle choice that gets my respect for the dietary, social, economic and ethical reasons that many espouse and poor dietary choice possibly bordering on orthorexia and other eating disorders for others. This is not reductive and I am in no way suggesting that this is the case for any individual here (a necessary disclaimer when so many things are taken out of context).

Here is my anecdote - I overheard a friend of my 18 year-old explaining to my 8 year old that she should "not eat meat because it is unhealthy and will make her fat". Now normally this would just get swept aside with a quick explanation without an issue except that my 8 year old has a limited diet due to a very strong taste sense - and has absolutely no need (at 8, skinny) to be told that a primary food group for her is unhealthy - especially based on poor nutritional information.

Veg'ism is a restrictive dietary choice. Any restrictive diet, be it by calorie or food group creates a risk of nutritional deficiencies which usually need more attention than eating more openly and with greater variety. My only concern, is really among the friends of my daughters that are creating a community of risk - not because they should eat meat - because some of their "fitness" and diet practices are unhealthy. I'm personally seeing a higher preavalence among young veg'ns of bad nutritional choices than I would like to see.

Then of course, my daughter brought home another girl for a weekend that only eats "white" food (from plain chicken to asparagus). In. my. house. I think I mumbled rude words in my kitchen all weekend.

^^ This. My 7 year old is already getting a dose of this garbage from her school friends so we are actively fighting it at home. We have, until recently, resisted talking in detail about calories and protein intake with her as we wanted to avoid "giving her a complex" about food. Unfortunately, we have had to start this process earlier than we desired. She is now in MMA classes where they focus on athletics and strength and she runs with me on occasion. At our house we eat everything but focus on portions and we encourage our girls to do the same.

patentguru

just probably ignorant folks that are unaware of the awesome protein power of lentils and beans and other veggies lol.

You can either educate them or let them hate, lol. I love my veggies and the occasional chicken

It is not hate. Some of us have noticed we do not have four stomachs like a cow, and we have canine teeth like a wolf.

gooseberrypink

My mom has told stories of feeding me meat baby food and the patterns it made on the kitchen wall as I spit it out. I have always disliked meat. My natural inclination is not to eat it, and if you're not listening to your instincts, what are you doing. I did grow to eat chicken, but that's it. Also, for all the talk of preachy vegetarians, I've found the opposite to be true. I've met quite a few smug meat eaters shoving their faces with nothing but meat, starch and dairy going on about how unhealthy I am because OMG IRON AND B12. Jeez, wonder how many nutrients they are deficient in.