Why do so many people think meat is essential? (NOT DEBATE)

determinedbutlazy

I was a vegan for a few months because my boyfriend at the time was. I took the lifestyle change as a challenge!
HOWEVER, I don't like nuts or avocados or nut butters or anything like that, so I was always WOEFULLY under my protein goal.
Most products available as meat "replacements" for vegans are massively processed with lots of salt and sugar added. I simply can't eat that much tofu in a day.

The vegan diet itself wasn't that bad in general. I totally lost my taste for cow's milk, I don't drink it now. Meat helps me meet my macros, it's good for me, contains a lot of healthy fats and I generally just feel better eating a protein-rich diet.

mmapags

The answer to this question is usually based on the person conveying it. Sometimes it will be born out of concern(based on Ignorance) that you are not getting the right nutrition to remain healthy and other times it will said in a derogatory way(once again based on ignorance). Basically this idea is based upon an antiquated nutritional system that believes meat and dairy are the only ways to obtain certain dietary needs e.g. protein, calcium, iron etc. There is a abundance of evidence that not only supports the concept of an adequate non-meat diet, but also evidence that shows that not eating meat or animal products is much healthier for you if done properly. As meat consumption is seen as the norm you will encounter a lot of ignorance manifesting in displays of both concern and other times down right insulting arguments .People are usually are frightened by new concepts

here is an example of some data collected.

The China Study (2005) is a book by T. Colin Campbell, Jacob Gould Schurman Professor Emeritus of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University, and his son Thomas M. Campbell II, a physician. It examines the relationship between the consumption of animal products and a variety of chronic illnesses, such as coronary heart disease, diabetes, and cancers of the breast, prostate and bowel.[2] The book had sold 750,000 copies as of January 2013.[3] It is one of America's best-selling books about nutrition.[4]

The China Study of the title is taken from the China-Cornell-Oxford Project, a 20-year study that began in 1983 and was conducted jointly by the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine, Cornell University, and the University of Oxford.[5] T. Colin Campbell was one of the directors of the project, described by The New York Times in 1990 as "the Grand Prix of epidemiology".[6]

The study examined mortality rates from 48 forms of cancer and other chronic diseases from 1973 to 75 in 65 counties in China, and correlated them with 1983–84 dietary surveys and blood-work from 6,500 people, 100 from each county. It concluded that counties with a high consumption of animal-based foods in 1983–84 were more likely to have had higher death rates from "Western" diseases as of 1973–75, while the opposite was true for counties that ate more plant foods in 1983–84. The study was conducted in those counties because they had genetically similar populations that tended, over generations, to live in the same way in the same place, and eat diets specific to those regions.[7]

The authors conclude that people who eat a plant-based/vegan diet—avoiding animal products such as beef, pork, poultry, fish, eggs, cheese, and milk, and reducing their intake of processed foods and refined carbohydrates—will escape, reduce or reverse the development of chronic diseases. They also recommend adequate amounts of sunshine to maintain sufficient levels of vitamin D, and supplements of vitamin B12 in case of complete avoidance of animal products. etc,etc

Good luck making your own mind up,its your life to live so don't let anyone tell you how to live it. enjoy

The China Study has been thoroughly debated on mfp on other treads. My understanding is that while it's a very large study, it's also extremely flawed.

The China Study was just an example. As with most study's they are easy to critique and find flaws.Especially if you have opposing beliefs to the outcome of said study (Not I'm suggesting that you do) I do agree that a study of that magnitude will have its faults especially when its an observational study as opposed to a study done in an controlled environment, which is obviously impossible considering the amount of time, people etc. But then the same logic for these flaws can be applied to any other study of this magnitude. Anyway it was only meant as an example......... p.s sorry for the double post.

First let me say, I have no dog in this fight. People should do what they feels is best as long as they get adequate nutrition. But, it is just not accurate to say The China Study is just a flawed oberservational study like most. It has been completely debunked and has been severely criticized by the scientific community for it's omissions and manipulation of the data. While some fault can be found with all studies, The China Study is not even close to the realm of "some fault". For one to cite it as reference lacks all credibility.

CorvusCorax77

As a father of teen-age women, I have come to view veg*ism a bit suspect within certain circles. It is both a personal lifestyle choice that gets my respect for the dietary, social, economic and ethical reasons that many espouse and poor dietary choice possibly bordering on orthorexia and other eating disorders for others. This is not reductive and I am in no way suggesting that this is the case for any individual here (a necessary disclaimer when so many things are taken out of context).

Here is my anecdote - I overheard a friend of my 18 year-old explaining to my 8 year old that she should "not eat meat because it is unhealthy and will make her fat". Now normally this would just get swept aside with a quick explanation without an issue except that my 8 year old has a limited diet due to a very strong taste sense - and has absolutely no need (at 8, skinny) to be told that a primary food group for her is unhealthy - especially based on poor nutritional information.

Veg'ism is a restrictive dietary choice. Any restrictive diet, be it by calorie or food group creates a risk of nutritional deficiencies which usually need more attention than eating more openly and with greater variety. My only concern, is really among the friends of my daughters that are creating a community of risk - not because they should eat meat - because some of their "fitness" and diet practices are unhealthy. I'm personally seeing a higher preavalence among young veg'ns of bad nutritional choices than I would like to see.

Then of course, my daughter brought home another girl for a weekend that only eats "white" food (from plain chicken to asparagus). In. my. house. I think I mumbled rude words in my kitchen all weekend.

^^ This. My 7 year old is already getting a dose of this garbage from her school friends so we are actively fighting it at home. We have, until recently, resisted talking in detail about calories and protein intake with her as we wanted to avoid "giving her a complex" about food. Unfortunately, we have had to start this process earlier than we desired. She is now in MMA classes where they focus on athletics and strength and she runs with me on occasion. At our house we eat everything but focus on portions and we encourage our girls to do the same.

Ugh. I know what you guys are talking about- the anorexia masked as some intelligent dietary choice. This isn't vegetarianism- this is an eating disorder twisting words around to try to justify their behavior.

My son is vegan, as I said. As I also said, he is super muscular. Kids at school have called my son "fat" because he is stocky and I have had to deal with an already vegan child trying to restrict his eating more because of stupid **** kids say.

I actually got him his own MFP set up and every once in a while I log a day of his and we go over if he ate enough, and hit his macros. He always does.

RECowgill

I don't care what the science is or the numbers or any of that crap.

Primates developed more complex brains and became human in part because they ate meat. Without that step I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be human.

That's good enough for me. Protein from meat gave us brains, and I like brains. I could never be a vegan or vegetarian.

I don't really care about what we're doing to animals in cages or any of that stuff either. There's a pecking order in nature, and nature is cruel. Humans are naturally cruel and animals do as bad or worse to each other. I'm all for humanitarian treatment where possible, but I also prioritize humans as the most important animal on earth. When I was born we were 3.5 billion in number and now we are 7 billion. Within my lifetime we will be 9 billion. I want to make sure humans are fed well, and if that means several hundred billion chickens lose out then so be it.

Eating meat really has nothing to do with the development of the cerebral cortex. Elephants have a very developed cerebral cortex and they are herbivores.

http://www.livescience.com/24875-meat-human-brain.html
http://www.npr.org/2010/08/02/128849908/food-for-thought-meat-based-diet-made-us-smarter
http://www.nasw.org/eating-meat-drove-evolution-our-big-powerful-brain

It's not just about the cerebral cortex. Meat was key to our evolution.

action_figure

I think it's a cultural thing.

lovelylittlegiggles

some folks just don't understand.

kburns0709

i have special contacts for my astigmatism

moosegt35

I have some friends and a number of people I work with who are vegetarian. I'm not prepared to give up meat but I am trying to cut down my meat intake to once a day instead of twice. I'm learning so much more about food and cooking with legumes and mushrooms!

As to why people think it's essential, it comes down to meat as a high source of protein and conflicting scientific research. It's a lot harder to get your protein without meat and whenever someone cites a study that says people are omnivores, vegans can cite one that claims we are herbivores.

Eating less meat definitely has benefits, both health and environmental, but cutting it out completely isn't going to be for everyone. Starting by cutting down how much meat we eat is a good start though.

I actually increased my meat consumption when I started eating healty again. Meat is the main course for all 3 of my daily meals. Nothing better than some lean meat for a good filling, high protein, low calorie meal.

hockey7fan

I've been vegetarian for almost 3 years and have never been healthier. I don't know that it's necessarily because I don't eat meat, but because I'm more conscious of macros, and things like that. I also have Crohn's disease, which has definitely made me take my health very seriously. Every day I make a conscios effort to eat 120-160g of protein, plenty of healthy carbs & fats (I have to go kinda easy on the fats because of Crohn's) & 100% of my iron for the day. My husband is also vegetarian, but none of my friends are. They all thought I was crazy for not eating meat, but see how healthy I am and can't argue with results I think it's also important to not be a vege-nazi about it-just because it works for me, doesn't mean it will work for everyone.

I am interested in what you eat to get 120-160 grams of protein without eating meat. Are you willing to share?

Getyourshineon

I recognize that I am simply a meat eater, I love it, bottom line.. I would never push my love of meat on anyone else, though. Protein is essential for a balanced diet but there are many other ways to attain your protein through eggs, nuts, beans etc. all of which I also love, but give me a good ole steak or a turkey leg over cake and ice cream any day!

rlmadrid

It's not essential.
If you enjoy eating meat, freakin eat it.
If you wanna be a vegetarian, freakin be a vegetarian.
If anyone gives you *kitten*, bash them on the side of the head with a spiky pineapple.

Agreed. I'll bring the pineapples.

MercenaryNoetic26

Sure you can live off zero meat. BUT meat is deelicious! I have burgers almost daily. Meat has good iron and protein and even essential fats. Love eating juicy meat.

horseplaypen

I haven't read the whole thread, but just to throw in my two cents: I don't think there's anything inherently unhealthy about a vegetarian diet. But from what I've seen of my friends who are vegetarian/vegan (college students admittedly), it seems like they eat less healthy overall - they eat way more packaged and processed foods than I do, and told me they get less than 50 g of protein a day - and that's on a good day.

Obviously, there are a lot of well-informed and diligent vegans who make sure they eat enough protein and limit processed foods, but I think for the average person who decides to just cut out meat and eat the same otherwise, it will end up as a less healthy diet overall.

SeasideOasis

I've found that is people can't cook, they are more likely to rely heavily on meat to be there shining star.

monty619

Hiya,

I get a lot from friends, and no so close friends, that I should eat meat and a strict vegetarian diet is unhealthy, and meat is essential in a healthy diet blah blah.

Why is this such a common astigmatism? What are your thoughts (WITHOUT BEING RUDE OR DEBATING) on a no-meat lifestyle? If you are vegetarian/vegan, do you find yourself to be healthy?

there is iron, protein and b vitamins in meat that you can miss out in vegetarian diets easy... and what makes vegetarianism so healthy? cuz u eat fruits and veggies? pretty sure omnivores do that too

acstansell

I highly respect those individuals who can go veggie or vegan. I tried it and I guess I ate incorrectly because I became anemic. Personally, I just like the taste of meat. I know it's not essential to my diet, I know I can supplement with a different protein source, and I know the industrialized meat processing industry is morally questionable - but I like the taste. Also, my husband really likes meat so while I can go for a salad or something primarily veggie, he will barely touch them.

I think it's a matter of personal taste. I don't give anyone crap for eating meat or being veggie. I feel that it's a personal choice. Same for those who go atkins, Paleo, no bread, whatever - It's what you want to do, so do it.

I think those indivduals who are hyper-advocates for either are ridiculous and judgmental. In some ways, I equate them in my brain to "bible thumpers" or "Jesus freaks".

Eat what you want.

CuteWittleWifey

I have nothing against vegetarianism or veganism, but it personally isn't for me.

I decided to try out a vegetarian diet right after I had my baby. BIG MISTAKE.
Although I didn't live off of soy products, I did eat some things to help me meet
my protein goals. Not only was my little one absolutely miserable during this time
but I just didn't feel right, either. For some reason, even when getting enough
protein without meat, my body just felt "off". I listened to my body's cues and
decided it was time to eat meat again.

My baby is a lot happier now that I'm not eating so much soy protein. Not only that
but I learned that the soy was affecting my mood. Soy actually produces estrogen,
and being postpartum, the last thing I need is my hormones to be even more
out of whack than they already are. I was a goddamn psycho.

So personally for me, it doesn't work. At all!

Lt_Starbuck

I don't think meat is necessary - but I think that protein is, and the rest of its nutritional value. Protein is undeniably important - everyone just has their personal preference as to how they get it.

Some people don't care how other people get their protein, and some people get all up in your face about where you get your protein.

I dunno. All I know is, Im at the top of the food chain as long as Sharks cant get on land and Tigers can't use guns. that means I get to eat meat, whether I buy it or kill it.

moosegt35

I've found that is people can't cook, they are more likely to rely heavily on meat to be there shining star.

Yea, because meat is so easy to cook and vegetables are so difficult. lol

fuzzieme

Here it's due to folk expecting meat, potatoes and two veg (overboiled carrots and parsnips or peas in my day, now broccoli is quite hip to replace the peas), as a child (who was vegetarian), the way vegetables were prepared made them tasteless and oh so boring. I made myself pasta and things with very little vegetables because people just didn't put any effort into cooking vegetables and as a result lots of people still hate them as an adult. Being used to the idea that the meat was the most important thing to finish on your plate, as it was the most expensive element, most people seen the vegetables as an unnecessary filler. I've worked as a cook and the number of 30 somethings that walked out of to canteen to buy a microwave burger because they seen a piece of onion in their lasagne was ASTOUNDING.

So I believe that here it is because of the general mentality that vegetables are boring and a life without meat is a prison sentence, and lack of imagination in the kitchen (I cooked all my own meals from the age of 12; my mum is a saint and already worked too hard to try to work out what to do for a vegetarian), has left a generation of adults who can't see past the same 10 meals they have every week. If someone offers them a dinner they aren't familiar with, they don't know what to do. They buy a microwave burger. In my experience, it is only these people who will tell you that you need meat. I always tell them they need some carrots.

Lt_Starbuck

I've found that is people can't cook, they are more likely to rely heavily on meat to be there shining star.

Yea, because meat is so easy to cook and vegetables are so difficult. lol

HAHA I totally giggled

DebbieLyn63

Total health requires a balance of essential nutrients. Anytime someone cuts out a specific food group, they are at risk of not getting in the essential nutrients their body needs. This means they must educate themselves about nutrition to be able to replace the nutrients they are no longer getting from the foods they cut out of their diet. Many people do not take the time and trouble to do this and end up causing damage to their health.

Complete proteins that are found in animal sources are different than strictly plant proteins, so you must combine different types of proteins to make up the complex proteins you no longer get thru meats. It can be done safely, but you do need to do your homework.

The same can be said for those going low carb. You can do that safely as well, but you need to make sure you are getting the nutrients in that you have cut out with omitting certain foods.

Protein doesn't have to mean meat
Carbs do not have to mean grains

People who are incapable of seeing that different people have different dietary needs, will always bash someone who chooses a lifestyle different from their own. This close-minded behavior usually spills over into other areas of their life as well.

Vegans vs carnivores
low fat vs low carb
cardio vs weight lifting

It goes on forever.

mmapags

I've found that is people can't cook, they are more likely to rely heavily on meat to be there shining star.

Yea, because meat is so easy to cook and vegetables are so difficult. lol

HAHA I totally giggled

That is a pretty ridiculous comment. I a carnivore and a professional chef! lol

Jerrypeoples

mostly because our teeth have evolved to tear at meat

plus it tastes so good

plus if you dont eat meat youre letting animals die horrible deaths for no reason

fIashforward

It's probably no worse than eating meat, as long as you're getting the same nutrients, etc.

However, I could never become one, love meat too much.

One thing that really annoys me though, is people who call themselves vegetarians yet eat fish! - That isn't a vegetarian!

eric_sg61

Eat what you want. Meat was essential to our ancestors survival. Being a vegetarian is only possible with modern agriculture, those people would of died of starvation in the hunter/gatherer days.

moosegt35

Here it's due to folk expecting meat, potatoes and two veg (overboiled carrots and parsnips or peas in my day, now broccoli is quite hip to replace the peas), as a child (who was vegetarian), the way vegetables were prepared made them tasteless and oh so boring. I made myself pasta and things with very little vegetables because people just didn't put any effort into cooking vegetables and as a result lots of people still hate them as an adult. Being used to the idea that the meat was the most important thing to finish on your plate, as it was the most expensive element, most people seen the vegetables as an unnecessary filler. I've worked as a cook and the number of 30 somethings that walked out of to canteen to buy a microwave burger because they seen a piece of onion in their lasagne was ASTOUNDING.

So I believe that here it is because of the general mentality that vegetables are boring and a life without meat is a prison sentence, and lack of imagination in the kitchen (I cooked all my own meals from the age of 12; my mum is a saint and already worked too hard to try to work out what to do for a vegetarian), has left a generation of adults who can't see past the same 10 meals they have every week. If someone offers them a dinner they aren't familiar with, they don't know what to do. They buy a microwave burger. In my experience, it is only these people who will tell you that you need meat. I always tell them they need some carrots.

I eat lots of carrots, they go great with chicken and fish.

fuzzieme

It's probably no worse than eating meat, as long as you're getting the same nutrients, etc.

However, I could never become one, love meat too much.

One thing that really annoys me though, is people who call themselves vegetarians yet eat fish! - That isn't a vegetarian!

I once met a vegan who had called ahead, told the hotel he would be eating there two nights, like any decent vegan would do. When the second meal for him had been arranged on the second night, he said he would have fish. That it's okay, vegans can eat fish. If I had been there, as a vegan myself, I think I would have had to destroy him. Grrrrrrrrrrr, and I used to wonder why people always ask me a million questions when I try to go out for a meal. It's because of confusing fools like him

fuzzieme

Here it's due to folk expecting meat, potatoes and two veg (overboiled carrots and parsnips or peas in my day, now broccoli is quite hip to replace the peas), as a child (who was vegetarian), the way vegetables were prepared made them tasteless and oh so boring. I made myself pasta and things with very little vegetables because people just didn't put any effort into cooking vegetables and as a result lots of people still hate them as an adult. Being used to the idea that the meat was the most important thing to finish on your plate, as it was the most expensive element, most people seen the vegetables as an unnecessary filler. I've worked as a cook and the number of 30 somethings that walked out of to canteen to buy a microwave burger because they seen a piece of onion in their lasagne was ASTOUNDING.

So I believe that here it is because of the general mentality that vegetables are boring and a life without meat is a prison sentence, and lack of imagination in the kitchen (I cooked all my own meals from the age of 12; my mum is a saint and already worked too hard to try to work out what to do for a vegetarian), has left a generation of adults who can't see past the same 10 meals they have every week. If someone offers them a dinner they aren't familiar with, they don't know what to do. They buy a microwave burger. In my experience, it is only these people who will tell you that you need meat. I always tell them they need some carrots.

I eat lots of carrots, they go great with chicken and fish.

I'm very happy for you, that means you don't fit into the category of folk I was referring to

jofjltncb6

In before China Study and FoK.


ETA: Dammit! Too late.