Why do so many people think meat is essential? (NOT DEBATE)

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  • tomg33
    tomg33 Posts: 305 Member
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    It comes down to what we all consider "healthy." My idea of healthy is maintaining a high level of muscularity and physical capacity, NOT JUST having high levels of "energy" during the day and supporting my body's vital structures through correct nutrition. I find that most vegetarians seem to sort of look like they're dying; most are skinny men and women. If you feel good and look and perform the way you want on your exclusion diet then that's great, but the truth is for the vast majority of physically-minded people, it just doesn't make sense to exclude meat or animal products.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Ahh ice cream. I do miss it. :P Looking into replacements like soy ice cream and coconut ice cream. :3

    I tried hemp ice-cream the other day...my advice...just don't. I have not tried it but I would imagine coconut is good. I have also tried a nut blend (genuto) - really nice if you can find it, but pricey.

    Sarah, you are going to feel sorry for me, but I don't eat dairy ice cream. I have some issues with lactose and milk, so I only eat dairy free ice cream. And I don't miss dairy ice cream at all. "So delicious" is a soy ice cream that is great. Soy ice creams come in a million flavors (turtle trails and pomengranate chocolate chip are my favorites, not including the five million varieties of chocolate). Coconut milk ice cream is my next favorite- but they all have a coconut taste to them.

    Personally I'm no fan of rice, hemp, or almond based ice creams. Soy seems to me to be the closest to the real deal and I have developed a taste for it so much so that when I do taste real ice cream, I find i would much rather prefer a soy ice cream at this point. Oh- and soy ice cream has more protein than coconut milk ice cream.

    Oh noes!! (((hugs)))
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
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    Personally I like meat, but by no means do I think it is essential. For me, it's the best vehicle for protein (and delicious) since I'm so on and off again with beans and in general I don't like fish. I sometimes use protein powder and I know it's in all other sorts of foods (yogurt, nuts, etc.). I think it's a personal preference, but a lot of people have been spoon fed that protein=meat. I went vegan for a month (yeah I didn't last long), but I also had people telling me to watch my protein and make sure I got enough of it.

    Also to jump in on this whole evolution thing: yes, at one point our brains would not have developed the same if we did not start *cooking and eating* meat, but that is certainly not a concern now. Plus several generations of non meat eaters have thrived-- anybody hear of India? I hear some of them are doctors or engineers :noway:

    No offense...but have you looked at the average Indian citizen? They used to be a completely badass civilization, but have all but completely failed at life since the British stomped them a long time ago. Seriously, why would you use them as an example of anything?
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    It comes down to what we all consider "healthy." My idea of healthy is maintaining a high level of muscularity and physical capacity, NOT JUST having high levels of "energy" during the day and supporting my body's vital structures through correct nutrition. I find that most vegetarians seem to sort of look like they're dying; most are skinny men and women. If you feel good and look and perform the way you want on your exclusion diet then that's great, but the truth is for the vast majority of physically-minded people, it just doesn't make sense to exclude meat or animal products.

    lolz at the skinny 'dying' look

    And again, most vegetarians can and do have animal products. Vegetarian =/= vegan
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
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    I think another possible explanation for the lack of an slit vegan power lifter could be cultural. There is to some extent an element of certain lifestyle and values connected to modern day veganism.

    My son went vegan on his own at the age of four. He is 11 now and he is an unintentional beefcake. When he goes to the hospital, the nurses ooh and ahh at his biceps. He *just* started lifting weights. So, maybe in ten years or so there will be one serious bad *kitten* elite vegan power lifter :)

    My personal opinion is that it is definitely going to be more challenging for a vegan to hit their macros and get enough protein to build muscle....but I do not believe it is impossible. And I think if we were to scientifically prove it were impossible, you will find that most vegans wouldn't care that they can't become 300 lb power lifters and are just as happy to be a 200 lb ripped, gorgeous, strong, and healthy weightlifter. So I see nothing to fight about.

    As I have said before, I look forward to the day a Vegan lifter makes me eat my words. I love when history is made, especially by the 'underdog'. If it's your son that manages to do it, that would be even better, since I know his mom to some degree. ^_^

    I just feel, as I have said, that science is missing something. It may not even be physical. It could be purely psychological. However, with this many people jumping on a dietary bandwagon (so to speak), there has to be at least one or two 'genetically gifted' people in there who can rise up to the top. Only time will tell, but for now, there is a problem, and I haven't seen a real solution yet. So far, their solution is to start their own lifting federations, which to me, signifies that they are happy being second rate. This should be unacceptable to any serious Vegan lifter who truly believes that their diet doesn't hold them back.

    I have definitely heard talk that not all proteins are made equal and it's possible that animal proteins are better building blocks than plant proteins. I haven't ever given those discussions much weight because I have heard arguments made both ways and it begins to get really complicated. Another thing I think about are hormones in meat, and I wonder if they contribute to growth... Like a growth hormone.... But would the specifics matter? If its a hormone or a superior protein? I dunno.

    I just think that for me, obviously I'm not aiming to be some big huge power lifter. I want to be strong, I want a low bf percentage, and I am a vegetarian for my own reasons. So in the end, I don't care if it is a "superior" diet or if it is our natural diet (personally I don't want to eat our "natural" diet if it means I can't have chocolate and coffee and toast), I am going to be a vegetarian and I'm quite certain it's not going to hold me back on my goals- I do agree it'd be easier if I ate lean meats, but it'd probably also be easier if I ran more! Lol! I do what I can in the confines of what I'm willing to do.

    And hey, it's more meat for you so what are you complaining about?!?!?!? LOL!!!
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
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    It comes down to what we all consider "healthy." My idea of healthy is maintaining a high level of muscularity and physical capacity, NOT JUST having high levels of "energy" during the day and supporting my body's vital structures through correct nutrition. I find that most vegetarians seem to sort of look like they're dying; most are skinny men and women. If you feel good and look and perform the way you want on your exclusion diet then that's great, but the truth is for the vast majority of physically-minded people, it just doesn't make sense to exclude meat or animal products.

    Haha. You know some pretty weird vegetarians! I wish I could just post a million pics of all the vegetarians I know. Even the vegans I know don't look sickly at all.

    Joaquin Pheonix, lifelong vegan and total babe (not with the beard tho- that shiznit has got to go!).
  • karmahunger
    karmahunger Posts: 373 Member
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    I would say...**** that chick from Black Swan, the main character...what's her name? Anyway, that actress, I think it's her, is a vegan though I guess she is sort of the skinny side. Great skin though!!
  • SwimFan1981
    SwimFan1981 Posts: 1,430 Member
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    It comes down to what we all consider "healthy." My idea of healthy is maintaining a high level of muscularity and physical capacity, NOT JUST having high levels of "energy" during the day and supporting my body's vital structures through correct nutrition. I find that most vegetarians seem to sort of look like they're dying; most are skinny men and women. If you feel good and look and perform the way you want on your exclusion diet then that's great, but the truth is for the vast majority of physically-minded people, it just doesn't make sense to exclude meat or animal products.

    lolz at the skinny 'dying' look

    And again, most vegetarians can and do have animal products. Vegetarian =/= vegan

    Lolz too!

    I have been a vegetarian since 1991, recently turned vegan, I've never looked like I'm dying! Yay for me :drinker:
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    I would say...**** that chick from Black Swan, the main character...what's her name? Anyway, that actress, I think it's her, is a vegan though I guess she is sort of the skinny side. Great skin though!!

    Natalie Portman?
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
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    I have definitely heard talk that not all proteins are made equal and it's possible that animal proteins are better building blocks than plant proteins. I haven't ever given those discussions much weight because I have heard arguments made both ways and it begins to get really complicated. Another thing I think about are hormones in meat, and I wonder if they contribute to growth... Like a growth hormone.... But would the specifics matter? If its a hormone or a superior protein? I dunno.

    I just think that for me, obviously I'm not aiming to be some big huge power lifter. I want to be strong, I want a low bf percentage, and I am a vegetarian for my own reasons. So in the end, I don't care if it is a "superior" diet or if it is our natural diet (personally I don't want to eat our "natural" diet if it means I can't have chocolate and coffee and toast), I am going to be a vegetarian and I'm quite certain it's not going to hold me back on my goals- I do agree it'd be easier if I ate lean meats, but it'd probably also be easier if I ran more! Lol! I do what I can in the confines of what I'm willing to do.

    And hey, it's more meat for you so what are you complaining about?!?!?!? LOL!!!

    I think the hormonal thing may have more weight than the 'complete protein' argument. Soy has been shown time and again to cause issues with estrogen when consumed in large quantities. What is the most protein dense food consumed by Vegans? Yeap, tofu, which is made of soy. However, assuming that anyone who is aiming to 100% maximize their strength is going to be on gear anyway, this should theoretically be less of an issue. That being said, if Vegans 'don't do steroids' as I have had thrown at me so many times, they are shooting themselves in the foot twice over in this area.

    Considering what your goals are, you are definitely doing more than 'just fine'. You are also busting your *kitten* harder, because you are under the assumption that your diet makes things a little bit tougher. Even if (as many would assert) your diet isn't really a hindering factor, you thinking it is, and wrecking **** twice as hard because of that, makes it a positive thought to have.
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
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    Ahh ice cream. I do miss it. :P Looking into replacements like soy ice cream and coconut ice cream. :3

    I tried hemp ice-cream the other day...my advice...just don't. I have not tried it but I would imagine coconut is good. I have also tried a nut blend (genuto) - really nice if you can find it, but pricey.

    Sarah, you are going to feel sorry for me, but I don't eat dairy ice cream. I have some issues with lactose and milk, so I only eat dairy free ice cream. And I don't miss dairy ice cream at all. "So delicious" is a soy ice cream that is great. Soy ice creams come in a million flavors (turtle trails and pomengranate chocolate chip are my favorites, not including the five million varieties of chocolate). Coconut milk ice cream is my next favorite- but they all have a coconut taste to them.

    Personally I'm no fan of rice, hemp, or almond based ice creams. Soy seems to me to be the closest to the real deal and I have developed a taste for it so much so that when I do taste real ice cream, I find i would much rather prefer a soy ice cream at this point. Oh- and soy ice cream has more protein than coconut milk ice cream.

    Oh noes!! (((hugs)))

    *weeps in your arms*
  • karmahunger
    karmahunger Posts: 373 Member
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    Yes, Natalie Portman.
  • upgetupgetup
    upgetupgetup Posts: 749 Member
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    Some vegetarians I know know how and have the time to manage balanced, varied diets. Others rely on potatoes a lot. But most of us are past discovery (and proselytizing), and stay out of each others' business.

    I personally feel tired, low in energy, and hungry when I don't eat meat (but, am also slightly anemic; and, not a little lazy when it comes to meals, lately). Am delighted when I encounter a filling-enough veggie meal (but that's rare. Ha!).

    I'll say that I remember being a child and having to overcome disgust to eat meat, though. It all smelled dead.
  • tomg33
    tomg33 Posts: 305 Member
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    Of course there are examples of muscular vegetarians/vegans. An individual may even know "many" such examples in their circles... But I can just as easily throw back at you guys that I don't know even one vegetarian/vegan person at two university gyms I train at who has reached even a novice level of strength, but we'd be going in circles :P
  • trud72
    trud72 Posts: 1,912 Member
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    PROTEIN and IORN in basic! :smile:
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
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    Of course there are examples of muscular vegetarians/vegans. An individual may even know "many" such examples in their circles... But I can just as easily throw back at you guys that I don't know even one vegetarian/vegan person at two university gyms I train at who has reached even a novice level of strength, but we'd be going in circles :P

    I actually use world strength records for this, and since there isn't a single Vegan that holds one, my point is indisputable...but oh, do they try.
  • Gjallarhorn
    Gjallarhorn Posts: 87
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    Never understood vegetarianism. I don't care if someone else decides to only eat leaves and berries, but as long as you aren't trying to get me to do it, and you're staying healthy, go for it. Had a girlfriend that tried to get me to change the way i live my life. She didn't last long... it wasn't a dietary thing, but along the same lines.

    and, an astigmatism is an ocular condition. were you going for 'stigma'?
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Of course there are examples of muscular vegetarians/vegans. An individual may even know "many" such examples in their circles... But I can just as easily throw back at you guys that I don't know even one vegetarian/vegan person at two university gyms I train at who has reached even a novice level of strength, but we'd be going in circles :P

    A bit of a leap from 'looking sickly and dying'. Oh, and you really cannot know any vegetarians who actually strength train seriously or even semi seriously.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Never understood vegetarianism. I don't care if someone else decides to only eat leaves and berries, but as long as you aren't trying to get me to do it, and you're staying healthy, go for it. Had a girlfriend that tried to get me to change the way i live my life. She didn't last long... it wasn't a dietary thing, but along the same lines.

    and, an astigmatism is an ocular condition. were you going for 'stigma'?

    *sigh* vegetarians do not only eat leaves and berries.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Of course there are examples of muscular vegetarians/vegans. An individual may even know "many" such examples in their circles... But I can just as easily throw back at you guys that I don't know even one vegetarian/vegan person at two university gyms I train at who has reached even a novice level of strength, but we'd be going in circles :P

    I actually use world strength records for this, and since there isn't a single Vegan that holds one, my point is indisputable...but oh, do they try.

    Note again....vegetarian. :tongue:

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