Why do so many people think meat is essential? (NOT DEBATE)
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I don't care what the science is or the numbers or any of that crap.
Primates developed more complex brains and became human in part because they ate meat. Without that step I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be human.
That's good enough for me. Protein from meat gave us brains, and I like brains. I could never be a vegan or vegetarian.
I don't really care about what we're doing to animals in cages or any of that stuff either. There's a pecking order in nature, and nature is cruel. Humans are naturally cruel and animals do as bad or worse to each other. I'm all for humanitarian treatment where possible, but I also prioritize humans as the most important animal on earth. When I was born we were 3.5 billion in number and now we are 7 billion. Within my lifetime we will be 9 billion. I want to make sure humans are fed well, and if that means several hundred billion chickens lose out then so be it.0 -
I believe that my body has been designed in the image of my ancestors, genetics indicates this and the evolution of life sees that various lfie forms are designed differently.
A human is generally designed both mentally and physiologically to be omnivorous, eating animals and plants.
While obviously not required for survival (vegetarians evidence this) it is clear that being omnivorous is both nutritionally and socially (accept it or not it is...) more acceptable than either being a carnivore or a herbivore...
I feel we are designed to primarily eat a diet of meat and fat for energy , withnutrients and vitamins coming from plants. our stomach acids are designed this way, a human cannot gain as much energy from plants as many other species as we do not break down cellulose into energy as other animals can.
I accept peoples choice not to eat meat and have no problem with it =-) just as I would expect someone else to not have a problem with me eating meat.
Further I would MUCH prefer to catch, kill and eat my own meat, than to have it farmed, slaughtered and packaged... though this is time inefficient and counters my other life interests like money and technology....0 -
Most people grow up eating meat so it seems like an essential food group. I don't know your situation, but I find that the older I get, the less people bug me about not eating meat. I went vegan in college and people loved to bust me about it, but now I'm in my early 30's and when people find out I'm vegan, they don't seem phased by it at all. They might occasionally ask me questions, but it is more out of genuine curiosity now, not the silly questions I used to get like, "If you were stranded on a desert island..."0
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Ahh ice cream. I do miss it. :P Looking into replacements like soy ice cream and coconut ice cream.
If you live near a Trader Joe's, try the cherry chocolate chunk soy ice cream. It is the best vegan ice cream I've ever tasted, texture-wise - soooo creamy.0 -
Animal products provide vitamin B12 which plant foods don't have unless they are fortify. Vitamin B12 helps to keep the blood cells healthy and it's needed to make DNA. And it also helps prevent anemia. if you a woman and are not eating meat and not taking the vitamin, then it's bad when you are to become pregnant. However, if you are taking vitamins, meat is not essential.0
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Ahh ice cream. I do miss it. :P Looking into replacements like soy ice cream and coconut ice cream.
I tried hemp ice-cream the other day...my advice...just don't. I have not tried it but I would imagine coconut is good. I have also tried a nut blend (genuto) - really nice if you can find it, but pricey.
Trader Joe's vanilla soy ice cream. Best **** of my life!0 -
Animal products provide vitamin B12 which plant foods don't have unless they are fortify. Vitamin B12 helps to keep the blood cells healthy and it's needed to make DNA. And it also helps prevent anemia. if you a woman and are not eating meat and not taking the vitamin, then it's bad when you are to become pregnant. However, if you are taking vitamins, meat is not essential.
Whole Grain, yeast and algae contain B12.0 -
Animal products provide vitamin B12 which plant foods don't have unless they are fortify. Vitamin B12 helps to keep the blood cells healthy and it's needed to make DNA. And it also helps prevent anemia. if you a woman and are not eating meat and not taking the vitamin, then it's bad when you are to become pregnant. However, if you are taking vitamins, meat is not essential.
Bread contains B12
You must have missed the part where he said 'unless they are fortified', which most bread is.0 -
I don't care what the science is or the numbers or any of that crap.
Primates developed more complex brains and became human in part because they ate meat. Without that step I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be human.
That's good enough for me. Protein from meat gave us brains, and I like brains. I could never be a vegan or vegetarian.
I don't really care about what we're doing to animals in cages or any of that stuff either. There's a pecking order in nature, and nature is cruel. Humans are naturally cruel and animals do as bad or worse to each other. I'm all for humanitarian treatment where possible, but I also prioritize humans as the most important animal on earth. When I was born we were 3.5 billion in number and now we are 7 billion. Within my lifetime we will be 9 billion. I want to make sure humans are fed well, and if that means several hundred billion chickens lose out then so be it.
Eating meat really has nothing to do with the development of the cerebral cortex. Elephants have a very developed cerebral cortex and they are herbivores.0 -
Animal products provide vitamin B12 which plant foods don't have unless they are fortify. Vitamin B12 helps to keep the blood cells healthy and it's needed to make DNA. And it also helps prevent anemia. if you a woman and are not eating meat and not taking the vitamin, then it's bad when you are to become pregnant. However, if you are taking vitamins, meat is not essential.
Bread contains B12
You must have missed the part where he said 'unless they are fortified', which most bread is.
Algae isn't. Yeast isn't.0 -
Eating meat really has nothing to do with the development of the cerebral cortex. Elephants have a very developed cerebral cortex and they are herbivores.
He's talking about encephalization in human evolution. There's a lot of articles kicking around about it.0 -
I think the big deal about meat has to do with protein, but there are other good sources of protein that are not meat, such as dairy and certain veggies.0
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I think the big deal about meat has to do with protein, but there are other good sources of protein that are not meat, such as dairy and certain veggies.
Very true, but most of these things come with all kinds of 'extra' macros that some people might want to avoid. For example, even the best beans are a nightmare in their carb to protein ratios. Many meats (especially beef) have this problem as well, but with fat to carb. However, most poultry can be obtained in ways that render it much better in that area.0 -
But they also have larger ears and noses. Whales like to eat krill and if I can find some I might become a better swimmer.I don't care what the science is or the numbers or any of that crap.
Primates developed more complex brains and became human in part because they ate meat. Without that step I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be human.
That's good enough for me. Protein from meat gave us brains, and I like brains. I could never be a vegan or vegetarian.
I don't really care about what we're doing to animals in cages or any of that stuff either. There's a pecking order in nature, and nature is cruel. Humans are naturally cruel and animals do as bad or worse to each other. I'm all for humanitarian treatment where possible, but I also prioritize humans as the most important animal on earth. When I was born we were 3.5 billion in number and now we are 7 billion. Within my lifetime we will be 9 billion. I want to make sure humans are fed well, and if that means several hundred billion chickens lose out then so be it.
Eating meat really has nothing to do with the development of the cerebral cortex. Elephants have a very developed cerebral cortex and they are herbivores.0 -
@gallow: no...I want people to post their thoughts on why there is such a debate between meat-eaters and non-meat eaters. I am in no way against people eating meat, I hardly even comment unless I am joking. So, I don't have a "position on myself".
Nice try though.
Very well. Think about it this way: most people cling to their way of eating as much as they cling to their religion. You are taking two camps of people with very different preferences and personal experiences and pitting them against each other, so to speak.
It becomes so 'hot button' because rarely does either side come out with hard science, but anecdotal evidence. The Vegans demand hard science to back the meat eater's claim while basing their entire argument on YouTube videos and heartstring documentaries. The meat eaters demand hard science from the Vegans, but rely only on various historical references to back them. Now, looking at things realistically, the meat eaters do have the leg up here, but not by much.
As an example, I have pointed out many times that Vegans do terrible in strength sports compared to meat eaters. I am greeted back with 'maybe Vegans just don't do steroids' and other such assumptions, along with the occasional Vegan name dropping some people that no one's ever heard of because they haven't done anything worth knowing about. No one can give me a real reason why they are sub-par in comparison.
I think another possible explanation for the lack of an elite vegan power lifter could be cultural. There is to some extent an element of certain lifestyle and values connected to modern day veganism.
My son went vegan on his own at the age of four. He is 11 now and he is an unintentional beefcake. When he goes to the hospital, the nurses ooh and ahh at his biceps. He *just* started lifting weights. So, maybe in ten years or so there will be one serious bad *kitten* elite vegan power lifter
My personal opinion is that it is definitely going to be more challenging for a vegan to hit their macros and get enough protein to build muscle....but I do not believe it is impossible. And I think if we were to scientifically prove it were impossible, you will find that most vegans wouldn't care that they can't become 300 lb power lifters and are just as happy to be a 200 lb ripped, gorgeous, strong, and healthy weightlifter. So I see nothing to fight about.0 -
Karmahunger, the OP, designed this thread to divisive.
Firstly the title implies that she believes that meat is not essential. For some people, it is essential and for others it isn't. Her definition of "essential" is her subjective opinion.
Her use of "blah blah" also defines her stance: she sees the arguments for meat in diets as being not worthy of discussion. Her use of the word "astigmatism" is designed to ridicule those who see an omnivore diet as being preferred to a vegan/vegetarian diet.
So let me ask you --- why are we all feeding into her little emotional tirade?
I've seen other posters on this thread use similarly rude and condescending language towards omnivores, as if being a vegan/vegetarian was morally or ethically superior. Come on, people! Grow up! You don't get better by putting other people down.
If you're an evolutionist then you can look at human teeth and see that we are supposed to be omnivores. If you believe in the Bible then God said that animals should be eaten (along with plants) after the flood. If you're Hindu you don't eat beef. If you're Muslim you don't eat pork.
Who cares? Just stop putting others down because their diets are different than yours. There are more important things in life to be divided over than someone's opinion on what kinds of food are better to eat.Hiya,
I get a lot from friends, and no so close friends, that I should eat meat and a strict vegetarian diet is unhealthy, and meat is essential in a healthy diet blah blah.
Why is this such a common astigmatism? What are your thoughts (WITHOUT BEING RUDE OR DEBATING) on a no-meat lifestyle? If you are vegetarian/vegan, do you find yourself to be healthy?0 -
Ahh ice cream. I do miss it. :P Looking into replacements like soy ice cream and coconut ice cream.
I tried hemp ice-cream the other day...my advice...just don't. I have not tried it but I would imagine coconut is good. I have also tried a nut blend (genuto) - really nice if you can find it, but pricey.
Sarah, you are going to feel sorry for me, but I don't eat dairy ice cream. I have some issues with lactose and milk, so I only eat dairy free ice cream. And I don't miss dairy ice cream at all. "So delicious" is a soy ice cream that is great. Soy ice creams come in a million flavors (turtle trails and pomengranate chocolate chip are my favorites, not including the five million varieties of chocolate). Coconut milk ice cream is my next favorite- but they all have a coconut taste to them.
Personally I'm no fan of rice, hemp, or almond based ice creams. Soy seems to me to be the closest to the real deal and I have developed a taste for it so much so that when I do taste real ice cream, I find i would much rather prefer a soy ice cream at this point. Oh- and soy ice cream has more protein than coconut milk ice cream.0 -
Rekindledrose: No, no I didn't. See that's the thing with these internet forums, people think that everyone is just trying to start an argument.
I have said on THIS forum I don't care if people eat meat, or if they don't. The reason I made this forum wasn't a little "emotional tirade". So please, stop with the wanna-be analysis, YOU are the one trying to divisive, not I.0 -
I think another possible explanation for the lack of an slit vegan power lifter could be cultural. There is to some extent an element of certain lifestyle and values connected to modern day veganism.
My son went vegan on his own at the age of four. He is 11 now and he is an unintentional beefcake. When he goes to the hospital, the nurses ooh and ahh at his biceps. He *just* started lifting weights. So, maybe in ten years or so there will be one serious bad *kitten* elite vegan power lifter
My personal opinion is that it is definitely going to be more challenging for a vegan to hit their macros and get enough protein to build muscle....but I do not believe it is impossible. And I think if we were to scientifically prove it were impossible, you will find that most vegans wouldn't care that they can't become 300 lb power lifters and are just as happy to be a 200 lb ripped, gorgeous, strong, and healthy weightlifter. So I see nothing to fight about.
As I have said before, I look forward to the day a Vegan lifter makes me eat my words. I love when history is made, especially by the 'underdog'. If it's your son that manages to do it, that would be even better, since I know his mom to some degree. ^_^
I just feel, as I have said, that science is missing something. It may not even be physical. It could be purely psychological. However, with this many people jumping on a dietary bandwagon (so to speak), there has to be at least one or two 'genetically gifted' people in there who can rise up to the top. Only time will tell, but for now, there is a problem, and I haven't seen a real solution yet. So far, their solution is to start their own lifting federations, which to me, signifies that they are happy being second rate. This should be unacceptable to any serious Vegan lifter who truly believes that their diet doesn't hold them back.0 -
Personally I like meat, but by no means do I think it is essential. For me, it's the best vehicle for protein (and delicious) since I'm so on and off again with beans and in general I don't like fish. I sometimes use protein powder and I know it's in all other sorts of foods (yogurt, nuts, etc.). I think it's a personal preference, but a lot of people have been spoon fed that protein=meat. I went vegan for a month (yeah I didn't last long), but I also had people telling me to watch my protein and make sure I got enough of it. My problem as a vegan was that I ate far too many carbs. I used to base my meal around carbs and then add in veggies, rarely fruit, and protein things. I felt healthier and lighter, but not nearly as much as I do now eating meat and animal products. Coming off of being vegan I can't handle milk anymore, so I think it helped my diet long term.
Also to jump in on this whole evolution thing: yes, at one point our brains would not have developed the same if we did not start *cooking and eating* meat, but that is certainly not a concern now. Plus several generations of non meat eaters have thrived-- anybody hear of India? I hear some of them are doctors or engineers :noway:0 -
It comes down to what we all consider "healthy." My idea of healthy is maintaining a high level of muscularity and physical capacity, NOT JUST having high levels of "energy" during the day and supporting my body's vital structures through correct nutrition. I find that most vegetarians seem to sort of look like they're dying; most are skinny men and women. If you feel good and look and perform the way you want on your exclusion diet then that's great, but the truth is for the vast majority of physically-minded people, it just doesn't make sense to exclude meat or animal products.0
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Ahh ice cream. I do miss it. :P Looking into replacements like soy ice cream and coconut ice cream.
I tried hemp ice-cream the other day...my advice...just don't. I have not tried it but I would imagine coconut is good. I have also tried a nut blend (genuto) - really nice if you can find it, but pricey.
Sarah, you are going to feel sorry for me, but I don't eat dairy ice cream. I have some issues with lactose and milk, so I only eat dairy free ice cream. And I don't miss dairy ice cream at all. "So delicious" is a soy ice cream that is great. Soy ice creams come in a million flavors (turtle trails and pomengranate chocolate chip are my favorites, not including the five million varieties of chocolate). Coconut milk ice cream is my next favorite- but they all have a coconut taste to them.
Personally I'm no fan of rice, hemp, or almond based ice creams. Soy seems to me to be the closest to the real deal and I have developed a taste for it so much so that when I do taste real ice cream, I find i would much rather prefer a soy ice cream at this point. Oh- and soy ice cream has more protein than coconut milk ice cream.
Oh noes!! (((hugs)))0 -
Personally I like meat, but by no means do I think it is essential. For me, it's the best vehicle for protein (and delicious) since I'm so on and off again with beans and in general I don't like fish. I sometimes use protein powder and I know it's in all other sorts of foods (yogurt, nuts, etc.). I think it's a personal preference, but a lot of people have been spoon fed that protein=meat. I went vegan for a month (yeah I didn't last long), but I also had people telling me to watch my protein and make sure I got enough of it.
Also to jump in on this whole evolution thing: yes, at one point our brains would not have developed the same if we did not start *cooking and eating* meat, but that is certainly not a concern now. Plus several generations of non meat eaters have thrived-- anybody hear of India? I hear some of them are doctors or engineers :noway:
No offense...but have you looked at the average Indian citizen? They used to be a completely badass civilization, but have all but completely failed at life since the British stomped them a long time ago. Seriously, why would you use them as an example of anything?0 -
It comes down to what we all consider "healthy." My idea of healthy is maintaining a high level of muscularity and physical capacity, NOT JUST having high levels of "energy" during the day and supporting my body's vital structures through correct nutrition. I find that most vegetarians seem to sort of look like they're dying; most are skinny men and women. If you feel good and look and perform the way you want on your exclusion diet then that's great, but the truth is for the vast majority of physically-minded people, it just doesn't make sense to exclude meat or animal products.
lolz at the skinny 'dying' look
And again, most vegetarians can and do have animal products. Vegetarian =/= vegan0 -
I think another possible explanation for the lack of an slit vegan power lifter could be cultural. There is to some extent an element of certain lifestyle and values connected to modern day veganism.
My son went vegan on his own at the age of four. He is 11 now and he is an unintentional beefcake. When he goes to the hospital, the nurses ooh and ahh at his biceps. He *just* started lifting weights. So, maybe in ten years or so there will be one serious bad *kitten* elite vegan power lifter
My personal opinion is that it is definitely going to be more challenging for a vegan to hit their macros and get enough protein to build muscle....but I do not believe it is impossible. And I think if we were to scientifically prove it were impossible, you will find that most vegans wouldn't care that they can't become 300 lb power lifters and are just as happy to be a 200 lb ripped, gorgeous, strong, and healthy weightlifter. So I see nothing to fight about.
As I have said before, I look forward to the day a Vegan lifter makes me eat my words. I love when history is made, especially by the 'underdog'. If it's your son that manages to do it, that would be even better, since I know his mom to some degree. ^_^
I just feel, as I have said, that science is missing something. It may not even be physical. It could be purely psychological. However, with this many people jumping on a dietary bandwagon (so to speak), there has to be at least one or two 'genetically gifted' people in there who can rise up to the top. Only time will tell, but for now, there is a problem, and I haven't seen a real solution yet. So far, their solution is to start their own lifting federations, which to me, signifies that they are happy being second rate. This should be unacceptable to any serious Vegan lifter who truly believes that their diet doesn't hold them back.
I have definitely heard talk that not all proteins are made equal and it's possible that animal proteins are better building blocks than plant proteins. I haven't ever given those discussions much weight because I have heard arguments made both ways and it begins to get really complicated. Another thing I think about are hormones in meat, and I wonder if they contribute to growth... Like a growth hormone.... But would the specifics matter? If its a hormone or a superior protein? I dunno.
I just think that for me, obviously I'm not aiming to be some big huge power lifter. I want to be strong, I want a low bf percentage, and I am a vegetarian for my own reasons. So in the end, I don't care if it is a "superior" diet or if it is our natural diet (personally I don't want to eat our "natural" diet if it means I can't have chocolate and coffee and toast), I am going to be a vegetarian and I'm quite certain it's not going to hold me back on my goals- I do agree it'd be easier if I ate lean meats, but it'd probably also be easier if I ran more! Lol! I do what I can in the confines of what I'm willing to do.
And hey, it's more meat for you so what are you complaining about?!?!?!? LOL!!!0 -
It comes down to what we all consider "healthy." My idea of healthy is maintaining a high level of muscularity and physical capacity, NOT JUST having high levels of "energy" during the day and supporting my body's vital structures through correct nutrition. I find that most vegetarians seem to sort of look like they're dying; most are skinny men and women. If you feel good and look and perform the way you want on your exclusion diet then that's great, but the truth is for the vast majority of physically-minded people, it just doesn't make sense to exclude meat or animal products.
Haha. You know some pretty weird vegetarians! I wish I could just post a million pics of all the vegetarians I know. Even the vegans I know don't look sickly at all.
Joaquin Pheonix, lifelong vegan and total babe (not with the beard tho- that shiznit has got to go!).0 -
I would say...**** that chick from Black Swan, the main character...what's her name? Anyway, that actress, I think it's her, is a vegan though I guess she is sort of the skinny side. Great skin though!!0
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It comes down to what we all consider "healthy." My idea of healthy is maintaining a high level of muscularity and physical capacity, NOT JUST having high levels of "energy" during the day and supporting my body's vital structures through correct nutrition. I find that most vegetarians seem to sort of look like they're dying; most are skinny men and women. If you feel good and look and perform the way you want on your exclusion diet then that's great, but the truth is for the vast majority of physically-minded people, it just doesn't make sense to exclude meat or animal products.
lolz at the skinny 'dying' look
And again, most vegetarians can and do have animal products. Vegetarian =/= vegan
Lolz too!
I have been a vegetarian since 1991, recently turned vegan, I've never looked like I'm dying! Yay for me :drinker:0 -
I would say...**** that chick from Black Swan, the main character...what's her name? Anyway, that actress, I think it's her, is a vegan though I guess she is sort of the skinny side. Great skin though!!
Natalie Portman?0 -
I have definitely heard talk that not all proteins are made equal and it's possible that animal proteins are better building blocks than plant proteins. I haven't ever given those discussions much weight because I have heard arguments made both ways and it begins to get really complicated. Another thing I think about are hormones in meat, and I wonder if they contribute to growth... Like a growth hormone.... But would the specifics matter? If its a hormone or a superior protein? I dunno.
I just think that for me, obviously I'm not aiming to be some big huge power lifter. I want to be strong, I want a low bf percentage, and I am a vegetarian for my own reasons. So in the end, I don't care if it is a "superior" diet or if it is our natural diet (personally I don't want to eat our "natural" diet if it means I can't have chocolate and coffee and toast), I am going to be a vegetarian and I'm quite certain it's not going to hold me back on my goals- I do agree it'd be easier if I ate lean meats, but it'd probably also be easier if I ran more! Lol! I do what I can in the confines of what I'm willing to do.
And hey, it's more meat for you so what are you complaining about?!?!?!? LOL!!!
I think the hormonal thing may have more weight than the 'complete protein' argument. Soy has been shown time and again to cause issues with estrogen when consumed in large quantities. What is the most protein dense food consumed by Vegans? Yeap, tofu, which is made of soy. However, assuming that anyone who is aiming to 100% maximize their strength is going to be on gear anyway, this should theoretically be less of an issue. That being said, if Vegans 'don't do steroids' as I have had thrown at me so many times, they are shooting themselves in the foot twice over in this area.
Considering what your goals are, you are definitely doing more than 'just fine'. You are also busting your *kitten* harder, because you are under the assumption that your diet makes things a little bit tougher. Even if (as many would assert) your diet isn't really a hindering factor, you thinking it is, and wrecking **** twice as hard because of that, makes it a positive thought to have.0
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