Why do women do it to each other?

jonnythan

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families.

Well, you have successfully refuted the statement, "all human beings are exactly the same and are mindless automatons who are all programmed to react to every situation with identical behaviors every single time and without exception." Now if only you can find someone who made that statement, you'd be good to go.:laugh:

Well if people are "meant" to behave more altruistically towards nuclear families, how do you explain those that don't?

LiftAllThePizzas

Sigh.

The claim that I was "meant" or "made" to conform to some gender construct is bunk. Full stop. There is enormous room for individual variation, and saying that someone was "meant" or "made" to have some characteristic because of their gender carries a host of expectations and implications that cause problems and stress when that particular characteristic is not displayed.

Yep, I agree, there is no "meant." I mistook someone else's usage in a post yesterday because I am used to having these types of discussions with people who already know better and use "meant" and "for" and similar constructs solely as metaphors because again it's a giant PITA to spell all that out every single time. (Our language sucks for that.)

I'm not saying individuals don't vary. In fact I even specifically mentioned polymorphism way back there. We still all have predispositions. Some of our predispositions are less than compatible with a fair society. We can overcome many of them. We can overcome even more of them if we know they exist and the why/how of them.

WendyTerry420

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families. You place values and meaning onto things that are not the values and meanings that I attribute to them, and this is why we can not agree.

Those kind of quotes make me rage.

What am I programmed to do? What if the things you think I'm "programmed" for aren't there? Am I defective? Am I less of a man? What's the implication?

Sigh, it's like explaining evolution to someone whose only response is, "so you're saying I come from monkeys?!?!?!"

Your thoughts, behaviours, ideas, memories, etc are all a result of the "structure*" of the neural network that is your brain, which was built by genes to have a specific structure and then additionally altered by your experiences/environment. The genes which built your brain are the product of a buttload of selection. Your brain and its output (predispositions to particular behaviors and thought patterns) are ultimately a product of an evolutionary algorithm. Whether or not you can accept it, it's still true.

If you want to believe your brain is magically immune to the laws of physics that's all on you, but all evidence including the effects of drugs, traumas and other alterations of the brain shows that everything that is "you" resides inside your skull and is in fact subject to the same laws as the rest of the universe. If you also want to believe that you were born as a blank slate and are purely rational, that's your own problem in trying to explain how so much of observed reality falsifies that assertion.

Are you "defective?" Who cares? The question is a non sequitur. You're trying to infer purpose and again derive value (and ego) from that. There is no purpose. The concept of "for" (you are programmed for this or that, or your body is for copying genes) is only a metaphor for the much more lengthy and drawn out explanation of the fact that all of it is simply a consequence of past events with no forward-looking 'meaning' behind it. I exist as a result, the genes that built my body copied themselves from each one of my ancestors to the next, etc. I don't exist to fulfill a purpose (especially not some cosmic divine purpose) and neither do you or anyone else.

The point I've been trying to get at is that if you want to change or control something you first need to know how it works (and thus 'why' it is the way it is) so that you can properly manipulate it to get the desired result. Simply looking at something and judging it as being "wrong" the way it is, doesn't produce a solution. In other words, if we want to stop treating each other poorly, the first step in that is knowing what causes us to do so.

(*Sorry I'm not going to include a course on neural networks here, LOL.)

Sigh.

The claim that I was "meant" or "made" to conform to some gender construct is bunk. Full stop. There is enormous room for individual variation, and saying that someone was "meant" or "made" to have some characteristic because of their gender carries a host of expectations and implications that cause problems and stress when that particular characteristic is not displayed.

This is like asking for a nature VS nurture debate. :laugh:


FTR, I believe in free will.

LiftAllThePizzas

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families.

Well, you have successfully refuted the statement, "all human beings are exactly the same and are mindless automatons who are all programmed to react to every situation with identical behaviors every single time and without exception." Now if only you can find someone who made that statement, you'd be good to go.:laugh:

Well if people are "meant" to behave more altruistically towards nuclear families, how do you explain those that don't?

"Well if men are taller than women how do you explain the fact that some women are taller than some men?"

jonnythan

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families.

Well, you have successfully refuted the statement, "all human beings are exactly the same and are mindless automatons who are all programmed to react to every situation with identical behaviors every single time and without exception." Now if only you can find someone who made that statement, you'd be good to go.:laugh:

Well if people are "meant" to behave more altruistically towards nuclear families, how do you explain those that don't?

"Well if men are taller than women how do you explain the fact that some women are taller than some men?"

Yes, and that's the point. Individuals vary, and saying anyone was made or meant for something because of their gender is BS.

LiftAllThePizzas

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families.

Well, you have successfully refuted the statement, "all human beings are exactly the same and are mindless automatons who are all programmed to react to every situation with identical behaviors every single time and without exception." Now if only you can find someone who made that statement, you'd be good to go.:laugh:

Well if people are "meant" to behave more altruistically towards nuclear families, how do you explain those that don't?

"Well if men are taller than women how do you explain the fact that some women are taller than some men?"

Yes, and that's the point. Individuals vary, and saying anyone was made or meant for something because of their gender is BS.

If someone told me I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder it wouldn't affect me. If someone thought I should be denied access to weightlifting equipment because I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder, they are a moron and should die in a fire.

You keep acting like those two are inseparable. Rational people can understand the difference between "is" and "should."

jonnythan

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families.

Well, you have successfully refuted the statement, "all human beings are exactly the same and are mindless automatons who are all programmed to react to every situation with identical behaviors every single time and without exception." Now if only you can find someone who made that statement, you'd be good to go.:laugh:

Well if people are "meant" to behave more altruistically towards nuclear families, how do you explain those that don't?

"Well if men are taller than women how do you explain the fact that some women are taller than some men?"

Yes, and that's the point. Individuals vary, and saying anyone was made or meant for something because of their gender is BS.

If someone told me I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder it wouldn't affect me. If someone thought I should be denied access to weightlifting equipment because I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder, they are a moron and should die in a fire.

You keep acting like those two are inseparable. Rational people can understand the difference between "is" and "should."

Now imagine that every day someone tries to prevent you from using the squat rack because they think you're not meant to. Imagine it happened at every gym. Imagine that society as a whole was stacked against you ever using a barbell.

Wouldn't that get old pretty quick?

That's the type of daily experience minorities and women face.

vashnic

Sigh.

The claim that I was "meant" or "made" to conform to some gender construct is bunk. Full stop. There is enormous room for individual variation, and saying that someone was "meant" or "made" to have some characteristic because of their gender carries a host of expectations and implications that cause problems and stress when that particular characteristic is not displayed.

Yep, I agree, there is no "meant." I mistook someone else's usage in a post yesterday because I am used to having these types of discussions with people who already know better and use "meant" and "for" and similar constructs solely as metaphors because again it's a giant PITA to spell all that out every single time. (Our language sucks for that.)

I'm not saying individuals don't vary. In fact I even specifically mentioned polymorphism way back there. We still all have predispositions. Some of our predispositions are less than compatible with a fair society. We can overcome many of them. We can overcome even more of them if we know they exist and the why/how of them.

You were supporting an individual whose arguments ultimately boiled down to 'God said so' and made many posts with an ideology akin to Social Darwinism. Which is suck, btw.

I don't think that anybody is arguing that people (Homo sapiens as a species) don't have some slight genetic predispositions (for whatever reason--assigning specific purpose to empirical observations is an exercise in wild speculation) to behaviors. What we are stating is that differences between individuals of whatever gender are much greater than differences in population averages between the sexes.

Ultimately, what you seem to be implying in this thread is that women are genetically predisposed to treat each other like the example in the OP because that's how we evolved (lolwat), and this is a fault we must strive to overcome. Calling major BS here.

CorvusCorax77

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families.

Well, you have successfully refuted the statement, "all human beings are exactly the same and are mindless automatons who are all programmed to react to every situation with identical behaviors every single time and without exception." Now if only you can find someone who made that statement, you'd be good to go.:laugh:

You are taking what you think is a pattern of behavior and terming it "programming" and I am saying I see the opposite pattern of behavior, why don't you also see that as genetic programming?

You don't see that your own biases are the basis of your inferences, not any actual scientifically certifiable "Truth."

CorvusCorax77

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families.

Well, you have successfully refuted the statement, "all human beings are exactly the same and are mindless automatons who are all programmed to react to every situation with identical behaviors every single time and without exception." Now if only you can find someone who made that statement, you'd be good to go.:laugh:

Well if people are "meant" to behave more altruistically towards nuclear families, how do you explain those that don't?

"Well if men are taller than women how do you explain the fact that some women are taller than some men?"

Yes, and that's the point. Individuals vary, and saying anyone was made or meant for something because of their gender is BS.

If someone told me I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder it wouldn't affect me. If someone thought I should be denied access to weightlifting equipment because I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder, they are a moron and should die in a fire.

You keep acting like those two are inseparable. Rational people can understand the difference between "is" and "should."

Now imagine that every day someone tries to prevent you from using the squat rack because they think you're not meant to. Imagine it happened at every gym. Imagine that society as a whole was stacked against you ever using a barbell.

Wouldn't that get old pretty quick?

That's the type of daily experience minorities and women face.

panties. wet. again.

can you unfriend me so you can FR me again???

CorvusCorax77

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families.

Well, you have successfully refuted the statement, "all human beings are exactly the same and are mindless automatons who are all programmed to react to every situation with identical behaviors every single time and without exception." Now if only you can find someone who made that statement, you'd be good to go.:laugh:

You are taking what you think is a pattern of behavior and terming it "programming" and I am saying I see the opposite pattern of behavior, why don't you also see that as genetic programming?

You don't see that your own biases are the basis of your inferences, not any actual scientifically certifiable "Truth."

and i was going to ETA but figured I would just comment again that I don't just mean YOUR biases, personally...but the biases of our entire society. Science views itself as being unbiased, but it is part of a larger cultural context that is biased. That's how things can pass peer review and still be wrong.

There was a time when people used similar evolutionary biological arguments to say that people of different races had different behaviors and intellectual capacities. Nowadays, we see this is totally unacceptable, while we can, at the same time, recognize some genetic truths affecting specific races (diseases that affect one race more than another, for example).

This is what I am talking about. Your assumptions seem to correlate with the same assumptions of the larger society in which we live, but that doesn't make those assumptions any more true just becuase they are more broadly accepted....

I'm back to my Nietszche quote about truth:

"What, then, is truth? A mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms—in short, a sum of human relations which have been enhanced, transposed, and embellished poetically and rhetorically, and which after long use seem firm, canonical, and obligatory to a people: truths are illusions about which one has forgotten that this is what they are....
to be truthful means using the customary metaphors—in moral terms: the obligation to lie according to a fixed convention, to lie herd-like in a style obligatory for all"

and yes, i just quoted a well known misogynist. But i think this quote is hella more legit than all his Ecce Homo crappola.

jonnythan

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families.

Well, you have successfully refuted the statement, "all human beings are exactly the same and are mindless automatons who are all programmed to react to every situation with identical behaviors every single time and without exception." Now if only you can find someone who made that statement, you'd be good to go.:laugh:

Well if people are "meant" to behave more altruistically towards nuclear families, how do you explain those that don't?

"Well if men are taller than women how do you explain the fact that some women are taller than some men?"

Yes, and that's the point. Individuals vary, and saying anyone was made or meant for something because of their gender is BS.

If someone told me I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder it wouldn't affect me. If someone thought I should be denied access to weightlifting equipment because I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder, they are a moron and should die in a fire.

You keep acting like those two are inseparable. Rational people can understand the difference between "is" and "should."

Now imagine that every day someone tries to prevent you from using the squat rack because they think you're not meant to. Imagine it happened at every gym. Imagine that society as a whole was stacked against you ever using a barbell.

Wouldn't that get old pretty quick?

That's the type of daily experience minorities and women face.

panties. wet. again.

can you unfriend me so you can FR me again???

Girl you need to control your hormones :laugh:

ericahassinistermotives

Bros do it too, bro.
Do you even lift, bro?

"OMG like only 80lbs, bro? You so weak."

"BRO, YOUR LEGS. THEY'RE SO THIN. GET YOU SOME BULK, SON."

"You're a forever virgin, bro, you need to CUT."

srsly mfbros, bros be catty too, son.
Ain't just babes, yo.

CorvusCorax77

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families.

Well, you have successfully refuted the statement, "all human beings are exactly the same and are mindless automatons who are all programmed to react to every situation with identical behaviors every single time and without exception." Now if only you can find someone who made that statement, you'd be good to go.:laugh:

Well if people are "meant" to behave more altruistically towards nuclear families, how do you explain those that don't?

"Well if men are taller than women how do you explain the fact that some women are taller than some men?"

Yes, and that's the point. Individuals vary, and saying anyone was made or meant for something because of their gender is BS.

If someone told me I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder it wouldn't affect me. If someone thought I should be denied access to weightlifting equipment because I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder, they are a moron and should die in a fire.

You keep acting like those two are inseparable. Rational people can understand the difference between "is" and "should."

Now imagine that every day someone tries to prevent you from using the squat rack because they think you're not meant to. Imagine it happened at every gym. Imagine that society as a whole was stacked against you ever using a barbell.

Wouldn't that get old pretty quick?

That's the type of daily experience minorities and women face.

panties. wet. again.

can you unfriend me so you can FR me again???

Girl you need to control your hormones :laugh:

I MUST HAVE EXCESS TESTOSTERONE TO BE SUCH A HORN DOG! Evolutionarily speaking...

or maybe i'm ovulating....

or maybe, just maybe, critical thinking turns me on.

sarahgip

woman, at whatever age are very competitive... teens are just more outspoken then older woman.. and teens LIKE to make fun of the other person, which usually means jealousy. and or that they are insicure about something, weather its the way they look or whatever.

jonnythan

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families.

Well, you have successfully refuted the statement, "all human beings are exactly the same and are mindless automatons who are all programmed to react to every situation with identical behaviors every single time and without exception." Now if only you can find someone who made that statement, you'd be good to go.:laugh:

Well if people are "meant" to behave more altruistically towards nuclear families, how do you explain those that don't?

"Well if men are taller than women how do you explain the fact that some women are taller than some men?"

Yes, and that's the point. Individuals vary, and saying anyone was made or meant for something because of their gender is BS.

If someone told me I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder it wouldn't affect me. If someone thought I should be denied access to weightlifting equipment because I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder, they are a moron and should die in a fire.

You keep acting like those two are inseparable. Rational people can understand the difference between "is" and "should."

Now imagine that every day someone tries to prevent you from using the squat rack because they think you're not meant to. Imagine it happened at every gym. Imagine that society as a whole was stacked against you ever using a barbell.

Wouldn't that get old pretty quick?

That's the type of daily experience minorities and women face.

panties. wet. again.

can you unfriend me so you can FR me again???

Girl you need to control your hormones :laugh:

I MUST HAVE EXCESS TESTOSTERONE TO BE SUCH A HORN DOG! Evolutionarily speaking...

or maybe i'm ovulating....

or maybe, just maybe, critical thinking turns me on.

You are a special woman.

LiftAllThePizzas

Ultimately, what you seem to be implying in this thread is that women are genetically predisposed to treat each other like the example in the OP because that's how we evolved (lolwat), and this is a fault we must strive to overcome. Calling major BS here.

Go ahead and call BS on your strawman.

You are taking what you think is a pattern of behavior and terming it "programming" and I am saying I see the opposite pattern of behavior, why don't you also see that as genetic programming?

Which part of polymorphism do you not understand?

Honestly, if you don't understand anything at all about neural networks and how they do what they do, it is rather ridiculous to argue about whether or not you think they are "programmed."

That's the type of daily experience minorities and women face.

Thanks, I'll be sure to remember that if some day I ever run into one of these "women" or "minorities" you speak of.

Rachrealtor

Only insecure people who do not understand true self worth do that.

CorvusCorax77

Ultimately, what you seem to be implying in this thread is that women are genetically predisposed to treat each other like the example in the OP because that's how we evolved (lolwat), and this is a fault we must strive to overcome. Calling major BS here.

Go ahead and call BS on your strawman.

You are taking what you think is a pattern of behavior and terming it "programming" and I am saying I see the opposite pattern of behavior, why don't you also see that as genetic programming?

Which part of polymorphism do you not understand?

Honestly, if you don't understand anything at all about neural networks and how they do what they do, it is rather ridiculous to argue about whether or not you think they are "programmed."

That's the type of daily experience minorities and women face.

Thanks, I'll be sure to remember that if some day I ever run into one of these "women" or "minorities" you speak of.

it's a slippery slope, my friend.

http://www.ferris.edu/isar/archives/genes-trust.htm

You seem to be unable to step outside the confines of your own discourse the tiny smidge it would take to look at your universe of discourse and see how limiting it is.

"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing
and rightdoing there is a field.
I’ll meet you there."

YepLilly

That's the type of daily experience minorities and women face.

Thanks, I'll be sure to remember that if some day I ever run into one of these "women" or "minorities" you speak of.

Careful, you might not be realizing how privileged you are. If you have never noticed how women and minorities struggle against certain stereotypes and things like the glass ceiling in the workplace, then maybe you live under a rock.