Why do women do it to each other?

CorvusCorax77

Like painfully so.

As in, you didn't even get that the Rumi quote was about our universes of discourse.

In terms of our talk, I'm not saying one thing is morally more correct than the other (nuclear family treated better or worse than strangers, and how that is evidence of certain concepts in evolutionary biology)... I am saying that scientists themselves immerse their interpretations and the value they give to observations based upon their own cultural assumptions.

I'm not talking about morality here. I am talking about intellectual honesty that takes into account even the very cultures of the scientists producing the studies and how those cultures impact the study.

You are still approaching this backwards. The idea that behaviors are products of selection is not derived from observing behaviors and then producing a model to attempt to explain the observed behaviors. It comes from the bottom up. Embryo development in multicellular animals is controlled by genes, the initial brain "structure" (and in humans much of its further development after birth) is a product of those genes (cell divisions, specialization, neuron connections, etc) and the behavior patterns of animals including human beings is then predisposed by those "structures." (Where else do you think your behavior comes from? If you don't think it's generated inside your brain then by all means demonstrate this by going under general anesthesia and choosing not to lose consciousness.

This is not just a hypothesis and it is not based on observations of any particular behaviors. It is not subject to cultural or perceptual biases any more than mathematics or Mendelian genetics or planetary motion would be. Evolutionary algorithms are also not hypothetical, and one clearly applies to genes and their phenotypes (in this case behaviors) being exposed to selection.

Particular hypotheses about what should be considered "a behavior" and whether they might be controlled by which genes in which ways, are what would be exposed to cultural biases and perceptions, etc. That doesn't invalidate the above.

Since you seem to be arguing generalities instead of specifics of anything, I'm guessing this stuff may be a little more technical than your current knowledgebase, which is fine. I have spent an inordinate amount of time programming evolutionary algorithms for fun, as well as neural networks for fun, and I also happen to be well versed in Mendelian genetics which I've taught to thousands of people for fun. That is why this subject was so interesting to me... several things I enjoy and know quite well all converge on this topic. What an awesome bonus to find out that my nerdy pursuits and passions have turned me into a woman-hating rape-condoning homophobic sexist racist eugenicist bent on world domination.

I also have a huge problem when this sort of intellectually dishonest thinking becomes a reason for us to sit around and say **** like "men are naturally inclined to rape."

Now you're quote mining. I didn't say that. Face it, you're just mad at a book you disagreed with. I didn't write that book. Tell it to the authors because I don't really care what they wrote or why.

So what you're saying is that thoughts come from brains, and you can understand deep thoughts like this because you're, like, super duper educated and stuff?

You're still ignoring half of the equation with a hand wave of "Oh sure, culture exists but still, genes and brains, AMIRITE?"

Which, uh... no.

Yeah, he still doesn't get what I am saying.

I have two science degrees, and that doesn't cover all the reading I have done, ya know, "for fun." I understand the concepts of genetics and evolutionary biology.

Nor have i ever been saying this guy posting here is a woman hating, rapist condoning whatever.

He just lacks the ability to understand what I am saying. I am grateful that other people here can "get" it. I feel there is no hope for us, as a species, if we can't challenge our own assumptions.

CorvusCorax77

Here is my personal cliff notes of this discussion:

Me:"I think the conclusions you draw about human behavior which you attribute to genetics do not have to do with genetics as much as you think they do. I believe it has more to do with your own cultural assumptions and I am afraid that you are unable to distinguish your own assumptions from the objective scientific truth, ultimately giving your assumptions the same weight as objective scientific truth. Which is wrong."

Dude: "YOU STILL DON'T BELIEVE GENETICS EXIST?! YOU MUST BE A MORON!"

LiftAllThePizzas

Here is my personal cliff notes of this discussion:

Me:"I think the conclusions you draw about human behavior which you attribute to genetics do not have to do with genetics as much as you think they do. I believe it has more to do with your own cultural assumptions and I am afraid that you are unable to distinguish your own assumptions from the objective scientific truth, ultimately giving your assumptions the same weight as objective scientific truth. Which is wrong."

Dude: "YOU STILL DON'T BELIEVE GENETICS EXIST?! YOU MUST BE A MORON!"

A: gravity, the universal attraction of matter to other matter, is an observable fact.

B: from that we can find common phenomenon to construct an equation that describes that behavior, use that to calculate a gravitational constant, and then use that to produce a model of the solar system that explains the motions of the planets.

A is a fact and is not subject to 'perception' or other biases.

B is subject to errors and miscalculations and biases, its accuracy is limited by our instruments and a model of the solar system and it is confounded by time dilation, space contraction, etc. (So much so that the orbit of Mercury predicted by such models ended up resembling but not totally matching Mercury's actual behavior, until Einstein fixed that.)

I understand your criticisms and I agree that they are applicable to B. I am not talking about B. I am talking about A, and only A. You keep trying to make them inseparable but they aren't.

You also keep massively changing the magnitudes of words like influence, predisposition, programming, and so on to the extreme end of a spectrum where human beings are just mindless automatons. I have explicitly said over and over that that isn't true. OF COURSE environment (and thus culture, religions, memes, upbringing and experiences etc ad nauseum) plays a role in one's development and behavior. This isn't even worth mentioning because the nature vs nurture argument is so completely idiotic and a waste of time to even address.

What is the difference between these two statements:

"Some men are naturally predisposed to rape."
"Some men are naturally predisposed to homosexuality."

meredith1123

Yesterday at the gym two older teenagers walked into the body pump class. One of the teens was over weight and the other was very thin. They started the class and the thin one was not even trying and was laughing at the other who was trying to workout. She was telling her she looked stupid and the class was a joke. The bigger teen was ignoring her and kept trying but when she lost her balance (she did not fall) the thin girl said, "told you you couldn't do it." They both left.
It broke my heart to see one trying to get fit and the other "friend" putting her down!! Why are women so mean to each other?

I will beat my daughters BUTT IF i ever hear her treating another girl like this. seriously, ill even say it to a stranger. I dont care. It's not cool. Bullying is a sign of insecurity.

agirltoremember98

Women are *****es.

Simple as that. It's surprising any of us ladies find a boyfriend/husband.

Jonesie1984

Sounds to me like the bigger girl picked the wrong work out partner.

THIS ^^^. Most women are in competition with one another (that i've encountered). They are almost used to other women being negative to them. Really sad. And although these were teenagers I know plenty of adults like this too. When my friend and I were the same size working out it was cool, she stopped and I kept going and now I'm "buff" with "man arms" and she's still overweight. Sometimes you can't win.

domgirl85

All women aren't like that. Please don't make generalizations. To answer your question, the ones who are like that are just insecure. Like men who are insecure, they have to find ways to make themselves feel better about themselves. They typically choose to make someone else feel as bad as they do.

devil_in_a_blue_dress

I think people (both sexes) are like that because they are insecure and seeking validation. Sad to see in teens, pathetic to see in adults.

devil_in_a_blue_dress

Women are *****es.

Simple as that. It's surprising any of us ladies find a boyfriend/husband.

Yeah, I'm not a b**ch -- neither are any I know.

CorvusCorax77

Here is my personal cliff notes of this discussion:

Me:"I think the conclusions you draw about human behavior which you attribute to genetics do not have to do with genetics as much as you think they do. I believe it has more to do with your own cultural assumptions and I am afraid that you are unable to distinguish your own assumptions from the objective scientific truth, ultimately giving your assumptions the same weight as objective scientific truth. Which is wrong."

Dude: "YOU STILL DON'T BELIEVE GENETICS EXIST?! YOU MUST BE A MORON!"

A: gravity, the universal attraction of matter to other matter, is an observable fact.

B: from that we can find common phenomenon to construct an equation that describes that behavior, use that to calculate a gravitational constant, and then use that to produce a model of the solar system that explains the motions of the planets.

A is a fact and is not subject to 'perception' or other biases.

B is subject to errors and miscalculations and biases, its accuracy is limited by our instruments and a model of the solar system and it is confounded by time dilation, space contraction, etc. (So much so that the orbit of Mercury predicted by such models ended up resembling but not totally matching Mercury's actual behavior, until Einstein fixed that.)

I understand your criticisms and I agree that they are applicable to B. I am not talking about B. I am talking about A, and only A. You keep trying to make them inseparable but they aren't.

You also keep massively changing the magnitudes of words like influence, predisposition, programming, and so on to the extreme end of a spectrum where human beings are just mindless automatons. I have explicitly said over and over that that isn't true. OF COURSE environment (and thus culture, religions, memes, upbringing and experiences etc ad nauseum) plays a role in one's development and behavior. This isn't even worth mentioning because the nature vs nurture argument is so completely idiotic and a waste of time to even address.

What is the difference between these two statements:

"Some men are naturally predisposed to rape."
"Some men are naturally predisposed to homosexuality."

My point is that when you think you are talking about A, you are, in fact, talking about a combination of A and B. You just can't seem to recognize that.

ETA:

To be clear. In my mind, the only part of this discussion that fit's the analogy of A above is that genetics exist. Genes are passed down. We believe there is a connection between our genes and our behavior, but it hasn't been clearly established what behaviors can be controlled by what genes, if any. Certain behaviors, like flinching and fight or flight responses, are genetic as they are also pretty universal in the species.

B is everything else in this discussion- women are more nurturing, genes made humans for the purpose of reproducing genes, men are naturally inclined to rape (I know that wasn't YOU who said that, but they relied on your way of thinking to come to that conclusion), etc. etc etc.

BareFootGypsyFarmer

Everyone wants to feel worthy and successful, but not everyone knows how, or has the tools to achieve those feelings. Some people try to create self confidence by hurting others to fullfill a need to be superior, which is a quick, ultimately unsatisfying victory. This helps to explain why the same culprits usually use the put down technique over and over again, ensuring that they maintain a "high" from other people's pain and frustration. It is easier to point out someone else's flaws than to face your own. Insults and put downs are bandaids that cover weaknss of character, fear and insecurity. Our society( through various forms of media) supports this type of behaviour. A dog eat dog world isn't necessary and no one truly needs to take things to Darwinian measures, but it sure keeps the beauty, fashion, fitness and medical industries in business doesn't it? For every ugly I try to create beauty. it isn't as hard as people think to get joy and validation out of giving someone else an honest compliment.