Why do women do it to each other?

CorvusCorax77

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families.

Well, you have successfully refuted the statement, "all human beings are exactly the same and are mindless automatons who are all programmed to react to every situation with identical behaviors every single time and without exception." Now if only you can find someone who made that statement, you'd be good to go.:laugh:

You are taking what you think is a pattern of behavior and terming it "programming" and I am saying I see the opposite pattern of behavior, why don't you also see that as genetic programming?

You don't see that your own biases are the basis of your inferences, not any actual scientifically certifiable "Truth."

and i was going to ETA but figured I would just comment again that I don't just mean YOUR biases, personally...but the biases of our entire society. Science views itself as being unbiased, but it is part of a larger cultural context that is biased. That's how things can pass peer review and still be wrong.

There was a time when people used similar evolutionary biological arguments to say that people of different races had different behaviors and intellectual capacities. Nowadays, we see this is totally unacceptable, while we can, at the same time, recognize some genetic truths affecting specific races (diseases that affect one race more than another, for example).

This is what I am talking about. Your assumptions seem to correlate with the same assumptions of the larger society in which we live, but that doesn't make those assumptions any more true just becuase they are more broadly accepted....

I'm back to my Nietszche quote about truth:

"What, then, is truth? A mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphisms—in short, a sum of human relations which have been enhanced, transposed, and embellished poetically and rhetorically, and which after long use seem firm, canonical, and obligatory to a people: truths are illusions about which one has forgotten that this is what they are....
to be truthful means using the customary metaphors—in moral terms: the obligation to lie according to a fixed convention, to lie herd-like in a style obligatory for all"

and yes, i just quoted a well known misogynist. But i think this quote is hella more legit than all his Ecce Homo crappola.

jonnythan

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families.

Well, you have successfully refuted the statement, "all human beings are exactly the same and are mindless automatons who are all programmed to react to every situation with identical behaviors every single time and without exception." Now if only you can find someone who made that statement, you'd be good to go.:laugh:

Well if people are "meant" to behave more altruistically towards nuclear families, how do you explain those that don't?

"Well if men are taller than women how do you explain the fact that some women are taller than some men?"

Yes, and that's the point. Individuals vary, and saying anyone was made or meant for something because of their gender is BS.

If someone told me I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder it wouldn't affect me. If someone thought I should be denied access to weightlifting equipment because I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder, they are a moron and should die in a fire.

You keep acting like those two are inseparable. Rational people can understand the difference between "is" and "should."

Now imagine that every day someone tries to prevent you from using the squat rack because they think you're not meant to. Imagine it happened at every gym. Imagine that society as a whole was stacked against you ever using a barbell.

Wouldn't that get old pretty quick?

That's the type of daily experience minorities and women face.

panties. wet. again.

can you unfriend me so you can FR me again???

Girl you need to control your hormones :laugh:

ericahassinistermotives

Bros do it too, bro.
Do you even lift, bro?

"OMG like only 80lbs, bro? You so weak."

"BRO, YOUR LEGS. THEY'RE SO THIN. GET YOU SOME BULK, SON."

"You're a forever virgin, bro, you need to CUT."

srsly mfbros, bros be catty too, son.
Ain't just babes, yo.

CorvusCorax77

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families.

Well, you have successfully refuted the statement, "all human beings are exactly the same and are mindless automatons who are all programmed to react to every situation with identical behaviors every single time and without exception." Now if only you can find someone who made that statement, you'd be good to go.:laugh:

Well if people are "meant" to behave more altruistically towards nuclear families, how do you explain those that don't?

"Well if men are taller than women how do you explain the fact that some women are taller than some men?"

Yes, and that's the point. Individuals vary, and saying anyone was made or meant for something because of their gender is BS.

If someone told me I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder it wouldn't affect me. If someone thought I should be denied access to weightlifting equipment because I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder, they are a moron and should die in a fire.

You keep acting like those two are inseparable. Rational people can understand the difference between "is" and "should."

Now imagine that every day someone tries to prevent you from using the squat rack because they think you're not meant to. Imagine it happened at every gym. Imagine that society as a whole was stacked against you ever using a barbell.

Wouldn't that get old pretty quick?

That's the type of daily experience minorities and women face.

panties. wet. again.

can you unfriend me so you can FR me again???

Girl you need to control your hormones :laugh:

I MUST HAVE EXCESS TESTOSTERONE TO BE SUCH A HORN DOG! Evolutionarily speaking...

or maybe i'm ovulating....

or maybe, just maybe, critical thinking turns me on.

sarahgip

woman, at whatever age are very competitive... teens are just more outspoken then older woman.. and teens LIKE to make fun of the other person, which usually means jealousy. and or that they are insicure about something, weather its the way they look or whatever.

jonnythan

Also "programmed to behave more altruistically towards our nuclear families"... Things like this that you say don't compute for me. I see lots of people treat strangers well and be abusive towards their families.

Well, you have successfully refuted the statement, "all human beings are exactly the same and are mindless automatons who are all programmed to react to every situation with identical behaviors every single time and without exception." Now if only you can find someone who made that statement, you'd be good to go.:laugh:

Well if people are "meant" to behave more altruistically towards nuclear families, how do you explain those that don't?

"Well if men are taller than women how do you explain the fact that some women are taller than some men?"

Yes, and that's the point. Individuals vary, and saying anyone was made or meant for something because of their gender is BS.

If someone told me I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder it wouldn't affect me. If someone thought I should be denied access to weightlifting equipment because I wasn't meant to be a bodybuilder, they are a moron and should die in a fire.

You keep acting like those two are inseparable. Rational people can understand the difference between "is" and "should."

Now imagine that every day someone tries to prevent you from using the squat rack because they think you're not meant to. Imagine it happened at every gym. Imagine that society as a whole was stacked against you ever using a barbell.

Wouldn't that get old pretty quick?

That's the type of daily experience minorities and women face.

panties. wet. again.

can you unfriend me so you can FR me again???

Girl you need to control your hormones :laugh:

I MUST HAVE EXCESS TESTOSTERONE TO BE SUCH A HORN DOG! Evolutionarily speaking...

or maybe i'm ovulating....

or maybe, just maybe, critical thinking turns me on.

You are a special woman.

LiftAllThePizzas

Ultimately, what you seem to be implying in this thread is that women are genetically predisposed to treat each other like the example in the OP because that's how we evolved (lolwat), and this is a fault we must strive to overcome. Calling major BS here.

Go ahead and call BS on your strawman.

You are taking what you think is a pattern of behavior and terming it "programming" and I am saying I see the opposite pattern of behavior, why don't you also see that as genetic programming?

Which part of polymorphism do you not understand?

Honestly, if you don't understand anything at all about neural networks and how they do what they do, it is rather ridiculous to argue about whether or not you think they are "programmed."

That's the type of daily experience minorities and women face.

Thanks, I'll be sure to remember that if some day I ever run into one of these "women" or "minorities" you speak of.

Rachrealtor

Only insecure people who do not understand true self worth do that.

CorvusCorax77

Ultimately, what you seem to be implying in this thread is that women are genetically predisposed to treat each other like the example in the OP because that's how we evolved (lolwat), and this is a fault we must strive to overcome. Calling major BS here.

Go ahead and call BS on your strawman.

You are taking what you think is a pattern of behavior and terming it "programming" and I am saying I see the opposite pattern of behavior, why don't you also see that as genetic programming?

Which part of polymorphism do you not understand?

Honestly, if you don't understand anything at all about neural networks and how they do what they do, it is rather ridiculous to argue about whether or not you think they are "programmed."

That's the type of daily experience minorities and women face.

Thanks, I'll be sure to remember that if some day I ever run into one of these "women" or "minorities" you speak of.

it's a slippery slope, my friend.

http://www.ferris.edu/isar/archives/genes-trust.htm

You seem to be unable to step outside the confines of your own discourse the tiny smidge it would take to look at your universe of discourse and see how limiting it is.

"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing
and rightdoing there is a field.
I’ll meet you there."

YepLilly

That's the type of daily experience minorities and women face.

Thanks, I'll be sure to remember that if some day I ever run into one of these "women" or "minorities" you speak of.

Careful, you might not be realizing how privileged you are. If you have never noticed how women and minorities struggle against certain stereotypes and things like the glass ceiling in the workplace, then maybe you live under a rock.

xaMErica

You should invite that girl to MFP if you see her again! She'll get tons of support!

jennifermarie16144

I do not get why young girls and some women are this way. We should all be supporting eachother and not hating on eachother. This girl should of been proud that this girl had the balls to get up and do something about her weight. I hope she dropped this girl as a friend because she deserves better than that!

mlb929

I haven't had the time or energy to respond to each post - but only to the OP. I'll play devils advocate a little.... you don't know the dynamic of the two girls or their relationship, you don't know their history, who they are or what brought them to the gym that day. Only a brief conversation that appeared to be to you, a little one sided of a skinny girl vs a fat girl conversation. My teenage babysitter is totally a sweet girl, athletic and fit, she's gone from skinny to heavier, to skinny to fit, bouncing around 10-30 lbs during her high school years, she is awesome, mature and responsible, I have a lot of respect for her, I totally could see the same conversation between her and one of her skinnier friends or heavier friends.

I view the conversation you posted as simply two teens in a gym, the skinny one not being comfortable for being there and the heavier one more committed, I don't see it as a fat vs thin or mean vs nice, or anything more than just silly teen conversation. I personally wouldn't have thought twice about it after observing it because it wasn't my business to being with and wouldn't be the next time I saw them at the gym either.

My kids and I laugh and joke constantly about our abilities at certain things, my kids will make fun of me because I'm terrible at geography, it's not personal, it doesn't have to do with anyone being more fit, thinner, stronger, smarter, some of us are better at some things than the other. Lighten up. Humor and teasing really does make us stronger, next time, maybe the more committed girl will come to the gym alone and hook up with someone more like minded.

upgetupgetup

re the vehicle of action (gene vs enzyme vs consciousness vs sets of interacting, sometimes contradictory cognitive modules vs cultural memes and social constraints) - imo it's (again) a question of the unit of analysis you're wanting to look at, where really there's unceasing, recursive interaction between all of these bits, that is selection

kind of fun to pop in here - glad people are taking time to elaborate (more so than myself) - nice little surprise on mfp.

rainbowbow

I haven't read through this entire thread...

But pretty much because I hate women. Alot. It gives me great pleasure to reassert my dominance, even with those I pretend to like.

LiftAllThePizzas

Ultimately, what you seem to be implying in this thread is that women are genetically predisposed to treat each other like the example in the OP because that's how we evolved (lolwat), and this is a fault we must strive to overcome. Calling major BS here.

Go ahead and call BS on your strawman.

You are taking what you think is a pattern of behavior and terming it "programming" and I am saying I see the opposite pattern of behavior, why don't you also see that as genetic programming?

Which part of polymorphism do you not understand?

Honestly, if you don't understand anything at all about neural networks and how they do what they do, it is rather ridiculous to argue about whether or not you think they are "programmed."

That's the type of daily experience minorities and women face.

Thanks, I'll be sure to remember that if some day I ever run into one of these "women" or "minorities" you speak of.

it's a slippery slope, my friend.

http://www.ferris.edu/isar/archives/genes-trust.htm

Awesome, please go the full Godwin why don't you. Oh, you did. Maybe throw in something about Stalin too? If you think any of what I think has anything in common with the article you linked, your strawmen aren't even man-shaped anymore.

Understanding the role genes play in human behavior patterns is NOT a slippery slope, because once again, for rational human beings, an understanding of why things are the way they are is not a moral compass nor a reason to behave a specific way. It is not my mentality that supports the stuff you hate. It is your mentality, the inability to detach "we are different" from "therefore one is superior and the rest should be oppressed" that produces and continues the things you hate about society. If you want society to stop sucking, one of the keys to being able to cause those changes is to understand why it sucks in the first place. Again, the roots of human behavior are relevant knowledge to have, on a personal and societal level.

No reasonably intelligent person would actually think that genes produce an inescapable destiny. You're basically arguing against cheesy alarmist science fiction plots. You guys seem to be stuck in false dichotomy that allows only "blank slate + total free will" or "completely preprogrammed automatons." Reality is much messier than that, but we can still figure it out and it is a worthwhile pursuit.

You seem to be unable to step outside the confines of your own discourse the tiny smidge it would take to look at your universe of discourse and see how limiting it is.

"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing
and rightdoing there is a field.
I’ll meet you there."

I am not the one who is being limited by value judgments and concern about whether reality is "right" or "wrong" or who thinks that an "explanation" is the same thing as a "justification." I dispassionately follow the facts to find how they interact, because what it reveals is always frickin awesome. And you're getting all pissed that I'm not making enough judgy statements to convince you that I'm on your "side." Understanding and knowledge isn't a "side."

NanaWubbie

I think it is a teenager thing.....the neurons just don't connect right until 21. I hope you were able to offer a word of encouragement to the young woman!

cosmic0074

Aw, I only clicked on this because the headline misled me to believe this would've been a dirty thread ;/
Anywho, women are *****es. That's why. I hope the chick dumped her unsupportive friend!

AABru

Are you kidding? Have you ever witnessed the abuse teen boys put each other through? Sometimes in disgusting ways. Teenagers' brains aren't cooked yet, they're all psychos, regardless of gender.

I teach high school...THIS^^^^^ is true. The more insecure the young person, the meaner the behavior. It is a mechanism to save face when you know you probably can't do something or don't look "the right" way to make fun of someone who has visable flaws. And since it is a learned behavior, it can last a life time if the kids doesn't ever find self esteem. Unfortunately many people walk through life this way. Burns my butt that my students can't even TRY to be kind to each other most days unless they want something. I spend probably 20% of my work day correcting behavior and tyring to teach simple social graces like courtesy.:explode:

OnMyWeigh464

Sounds like this skinny girl wants the friend to stay bigger than her so she can feel better about herself! I feel for that other girl. How frustrating for her!

CorvusCorax77

Your inability to even comprehend what I have been saying is so frustrating, I am giving up on this conversation.

jonnythan

Your inability to even comprehend what I have been saying is so frustrating, I am giving up on this conversation.

Good call. Me too.

CorvusCorax77

Like painfully so.

As in, you didn't even get that the Rumi quote was about our universes of discourse.

In terms of our talk, I'm not saying one thing is morally more correct than the other (nuclear family treated better or worse than strangers, and how that is evidence of certain concepts in evolutionary biology)... I am saying that scientists themselves immerse their interpretations and the value they give to observations based upon their own cultural assumptions.

I'm not talking about morality here. I am talking about intellectual honesty that takes into account even the very cultures of the scientists producing the studies and how those cultures impact the study.

jonnythan

Stop it. You're going to make *my* panties wet.

upgetupgetup

Stop it. You're going to make *my* panties wet.

Beta male strategy. JOKES!!!!

CorvusCorax77

Like this ficking bull**** right here:

"...once again, for rational human beings, an understanding of why things are the way they are is not a moral compass nor a reason to behave a specific way. It is not my mentality that supports the stuff you hate. It is your mentality, the inability to detach "we are different" from "therefore one is superior and the rest should be oppressed" that produces and continues the things you hate about society."

First off my problem has never been that I thought it might make rape seem "ok" because you think there is a generic basis for it. My problem is that I think the "science" that says this is skewed. I think the theory that believes it is an evolutionary trait to pass on genes is an intellectually dishonest theory, for many reasons I have already stated. And my problem is also that we live in a culture where we witness animal behavior, we give it human meaning, we infuse t with our own cultural **** (sexism, racism, etc) and then we use the stories we create about it to try to explain our own behavior, never noticing that it is our cuktural interpretations that are giving us the data we are using to try to understand ourselves.

I also have a huge problem when this sort of intellectually dishonest thinking becomes a reason for us to sit around and say **** like "men are naturally inclined to rape."

That's ****ed.

CorvusCorax77

Stop it. You're going to make *my* panties wet.

Hehehehe!

LiftAllThePizzas

Like painfully so.

As in, you didn't even get that the Rumi quote was about our universes of discourse.

In terms of our talk, I'm not saying one thing is morally more correct than the other (nuclear family treated better or worse than strangers, and how that is evidence of certain concepts in evolutionary biology)... I am saying that scientists themselves immerse their interpretations and the value they give to observations based upon their own cultural assumptions.

I'm not talking about morality here. I am talking about intellectual honesty that takes into account even the very cultures of the scientists producing the studies and how those cultures impact the study.

You are still approaching this backwards. The idea that behaviors are products of selection is not derived from observing behaviors and then producing a model to attempt to explain the observed behaviors. It comes from the bottom up. Embryo development in multicellular animals is controlled by genes, the initial brain "structure" (and in humans much of its further development after birth) is a product of those genes (cell divisions, specialization, neuron connections, etc) and the behavior patterns of animals including human beings is then predisposed by those "structures." (Where else do you think your behavior comes from? If you don't think it's generated inside your brain then by all means demonstrate this by going under general anesthesia and choosing not to lose consciousness.

This is not just a hypothesis and it is not based on observations of any particular behaviors. It is not subject to cultural or perceptual biases any more than mathematics or Mendelian genetics or planetary motion would be. Evolutionary algorithms are also not hypothetical, and one clearly applies to genes and their phenotypes (in this case behaviors) being exposed to selection.

Particular hypotheses about what should be considered "a behavior" and whether they might be controlled by which genes in which ways, are what would be exposed to cultural biases and perceptions, etc. That doesn't invalidate the above.

Since you seem to be arguing generalities instead of specifics of anything, I'm guessing this stuff may be a little more technical than your current knowledgebase, which is fine. I have spent an inordinate amount of time programming evolutionary algorithms for fun, as well as neural networks for fun, and I also happen to be well versed in Mendelian genetics which I've taught to thousands of people for fun. That is why this subject was so interesting to me... several things I enjoy and know quite well all converge on this topic. What an awesome bonus to find out that my nerdy pursuits and passions have turned me into a woman-hating rape-condoning homophobic sexist racist eugenicist bent on world domination.

I also have a huge problem when this sort of intellectually dishonest thinking becomes a reason for us to sit around and say **** like "men are naturally inclined to rape."

Now you're quote mining. I didn't say that. Face it, you're just mad at a book you disagreed with. I didn't write that book. Tell it to the authors because I don't really care what they wrote or why.

AlanTuring

Like painfully so.

As in, you didn't even get that the Rumi quote was about our universes of discourse.

In terms of our talk, I'm not saying one thing is morally more correct than the other (nuclear family treated better or worse than strangers, and how that is evidence of certain concepts in evolutionary biology)... I am saying that scientists themselves immerse their interpretations and the value they give to observations based upon their own cultural assumptions.

I'm not talking about morality here. I am talking about intellectual honesty that takes into account even the very cultures of the scientists producing the studies and how those cultures impact the study.

You are still approaching this backwards. The idea that behaviors are products of selection is not derived from observing behaviors and then producing a model to attempt to explain the observed behaviors. It comes from the bottom up. Embryo development in multicellular animals is controlled by genes, the initial brain "structure" (and in humans much of its further development after birth) is a product of those genes (cell divisions, specialization, neuron connections, etc) and the behavior patterns of animals including human beings is then predisposed by those "structures." (Where else do you think your behavior comes from? If you don't think it's generated inside your brain then by all means demonstrate this by going under general anesthesia and choosing not to lose consciousness.

This is not just a hypothesis and it is not based on observations of any particular behaviors. It is not subject to cultural or perceptual biases any more than mathematics or Mendelian genetics or planetary motion would be. Evolutionary algorithms are also not hypothetical, and one clearly applies to genes and their phenotypes (in this case behaviors) being exposed to selection.

Particular hypotheses about what should be considered "a behavior" and whether they might be controlled by which genes in which ways, are what would be exposed to cultural biases and perceptions, etc. That doesn't invalidate the above.

Since you seem to be arguing generalities instead of specifics of anything, I'm guessing this stuff may be a little more technical than your current knowledgebase, which is fine. I have spent an inordinate amount of time programming evolutionary algorithms for fun, as well as neural networks for fun, and I also happen to be well versed in Mendelian genetics which I've taught to thousands of people for fun. That is why this subject was so interesting to me... several things I enjoy and know quite well all converge on this topic. What an awesome bonus to find out that my nerdy pursuits and passions have turned me into a woman-hating rape-condoning homophobic sexist racist eugenicist bent on world domination.

I also have a huge problem when this sort of intellectually dishonest thinking becomes a reason for us to sit around and say **** like "men are naturally inclined to rape."

Now you're quote mining. I didn't say that. Face it, you're just mad at a book you disagreed with. I didn't write that book. Tell it to the authors because I don't really care what they wrote or why.

So what you're saying is that thoughts come from brains, and you can understand deep thoughts like this because you're, like, super duper educated and stuff?

You're still ignoring half of the equation with a hand wave of "Oh sure, culture exists but still, genes and brains, AMIRITE?"

Which, uh... no.

keepingm0tivated

Girls are jealous and can be very catty. Hehe not like me though cause I am a cat. DUN DUN DUN.

trolololololo