Paleo vs The China Study - What are your views?

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  • redraidergirl2009
    redraidergirl2009 Posts: 2,560 Member
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    Scanning this thread I have seen no one post any studies. I think there are more fundamental questions here:
    Do humans need to eat meat or anything that comes from animals?

    Is wheat proven to be bad for people that aren't sensitive or have an intolerance to it?

    Honestly I think this was a *kitten* starter thread.

    Didn't you tell a pro wrestler the other day to use spinach and kale as protein sources? Everyone **** starts, they just don't know it :D

    He was a prowrester? Didn't see that. And a little spinach and kale never hurt anyone :p
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,709 Member
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    I say eat like a Japanese.


    A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • upgetupgetup
    upgetupgetup Posts: 749 Member
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    I didnt read all the replies, but i did read 'the paleo solution' and its full of science. its written by a biochemist and he explains everything in great detail. he had very bad health issues that have been resolved since changing his diet. He has a bunch of success stories of people in remission from arthitis, RA and a bunch aof other auto-imune diseases. he gives out a load of information on his website its not like a 'buy my book and youll find out' . robbwolf.com and theres also Marksdailyapple.com
    i think paleo/primal is the way to go
    just wish i could stcik to it

    Is that so! The sort of mainstream nutritional advice for those conditions, when any is offered, is to follow a kind of Mediterranean diet.. will check that link, thanks.

    edit: yeah really not sure I can part with my yogurt or coffee cream. very quick scan of literature suggests any anti-inflammatory effect could be related to increased fish consumption, not nec the exclusion of grains... but will keep reading. but really really really not sure about the idea of losing my dairy :(
  • leighann881
    leighann881 Posts: 371
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    My sister went Paleo two years ago. She was close to 300 lb. at the time, now she is below 210 and on her way to onederland! Her doctor advised against Paleo but she had high chol., was borderline diabetic, all her numbers were bad. A year later the same doctor apologized when the same tests were run. All of her numbers were much lower, no more high chol. or risk of diabetes. She made me a believer, even though I am not in a position to go full paleo.
    Real numbers!! Not hype.

    When a person is 300 lbs. any controlled diet is going to improve their stats.
  • WendyTerry420
    WendyTerry420 Posts: 13,274 Member
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    The agricultural revolution has been nothing but a bane on our species and has set the human race back thousands of years.

    This is, quite possibly, the stupidest thing I have read here. Ever.

    Yes, that comment is definitely a strange one. For one, I love my garden. For two, I love being able to run to the store to get a gallon of milk without ever having to touch a cow. :laugh:

    Just wow!
  • WendyTerry420
    WendyTerry420 Posts: 13,274 Member
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    Scanning this thread I have seen no one post any studies. I think there are more fundamental questions here:
    Do humans need to eat meat or anything that comes from animals?

    Is wheat proven to be bad for people that aren't sensitive or have an intolerance to it?

    Honestly I think this was a *kitten* starter thread.

    Didn't you tell a pro wrestler the other day to use spinach and kale as protein sources? Everyone **** starts, they just don't know it :D

    He was a prowrester? Didn't see that. And a little spinach and kale never hurt anyone :p

    Spinach is delicious! But it belongs as a side dish, next to my red meat!
  • redraidergirl2009
    redraidergirl2009 Posts: 2,560 Member
    Options
    Scanning this thread I have seen no one post any studies. I think there are more fundamental questions here:
    Do humans need to eat meat or anything that comes from animals?

    Is wheat proven to be bad for people that aren't sensitive or have an intolerance to it?

    Honestly I think this was a *kitten* starter thread.

    Didn't you tell a pro wrestler the other day to use spinach and kale as protein sources? Everyone **** starts, they just don't know it :D

    He was a prowrester? Didn't see that. And a little spinach and kale never hurt anyone :p

    Spinach is delicious! But it belongs as a side dish, next to my red meat!

    I like it as a main dish. :)
  • MeeshyBW
    MeeshyBW Posts: 382 Member
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    Scanning this thread I have seen no one post any studies. I think there are more fundamental questions here:
    Do humans need to eat meat or anything that comes from animals?

    Is wheat proven to be bad for people that aren't sensitive or have an intolerance to it?

    Honestly I think this was a *kitten* starter thread.

    i didn;t post this to cause trouble I cannot be held responsible for people arguing their point so aggressively with each other!

    I was simply looking for peoples opinions on both diets, not just which is best. I am of the belief that we should eat a whole food diet with grass fed/organic meats/eggs, organic vegetables, some nuts and seeds, small quantities of legumes and zero wheat and zero refined carbs. That's what I think. I just wanted to understand better why people think Paleo works for them is all.

    I just found some of the documentaries and books I have read recently very interesting and wanted to discuss them with likeminded individuals, not start a thread for people to bash each other.
  • philco41
    philco41 Posts: 68 Member
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    Google the Wahls Foundation, or check it out on Facebook for another interesting perspective. You could also look for Dr. Wahls book, "Minding your mitochondria." I'm not a follower, but she has an interesting perspective and some clinical experience. I'm glad to see you do favor grass-fed beef.
  • Iron_Feline
    Iron_Feline Posts: 10,750 Member
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    I think that unless you have an allergy or a true intolerance there is no need to cut anything out of your diet. Eat healthily with all things in moderation and leave some room for "naughty" treats and you won't go far wrong. Balance is the key.

    I have read several articles debunking the china study - and more are now debunking paleo. If it works for you then great - but there is no real need to cut stuff out just because someone wrote a book on it, even if that someone has a PhD.
  • geebusuk
    geebusuk Posts: 3,348 Member
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    They both seem to be trying to justify an arbitrary viewpoint by questionable means.

    For the China study, there's some excellent in-depth analysis of it here from someone that does seem to know what they're talking about and actually supports this sort of life style (as opposed to being a butcher, or something :) )
    http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
  • Delicate
    Delicate Posts: 625 Member
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    Why not just find out what changed in the general diets that made people starting getting bigger and fatter?

    Why was virtuely noone overweight during wars? cause they were on rations

    Why were people thin prior sugar being available everywhere? cause sugar was expensive, so if you were fat or overweight you were seen to have money

    Maybe peoples children and childrens childrens genes changed because of such limitations on diets, and find out what made them fat in the first place incase of constantly doing it to present times.

    Lugemes make my gassy, so its in everyones best interests i avoid them.
  • MercenaryNoetic26
    MercenaryNoetic26 Posts: 2,747 Member
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    Bump
  • EPICUREASIAN
    EPICUREASIAN Posts: 147 Member
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    "Science is facts; just as houses are made of stones, so is science made of facts; but a pile of stones is not a house and a collection of facts is not necessarily science." -- Henri Poincaré
  • geebusuk
    geebusuk Posts: 3,348 Member
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    They both seem to be trying to justify an arbitrary viewpoint by questionable means.

    For the China study, there's some excellent in-depth analysis of it here from someone that does seem to know what they're talking about and actually supports this sort of life style (as opposed to being a butcher, or something :) )
    http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
    Seems that link has already been discussed - skimmed a bit too much, it seems.

    Her about page lists a lot of useful background:
    http://rawfoodsos.com/about/

    Her later response to his response provides 129 citations (though many the same, of course) to back up her analysis.
  • Kanuenue
    Kanuenue Posts: 253 Member
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    One thing that both diets agree on- chemical additives and processed added sugars act negatively in the body, whole foods are better for overall nutrition and health. That's not so revolutionary, but still good advice.

    Other than that, humans have been successful with a wide range of dietary choices. It is one of the reasons we are so successful as a species. There is little evidence to support that this promoted dietary time frame (paleolithic) in human history is accurate let alone ideal for human health. The China study was also questioned for it's conclusions when there is a very large variance in demographic results.

    Most humans will be successful in weight maintenance if they eat whole food that they enjoy, and not too much of any one thing/macro. Easy.
  • geebusuk
    geebusuk Posts: 3,348 Member
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    Most humans will be successful in weight maintenance if they eat whole food that they enjoy, and not too much of any one thing/macro. Easy.
    Also if they follow the same eating 'processed' food and follows 'IFIFYM' :).
    With exercise, they should be healthier than most people out there.
  • savithny
    savithny Posts: 1,200 Member
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    I think that all the focus on "the perfect diet" is skipping the most important part of the equation: the perfect activity level.

    Forget lining obesity statistics up with corn syrup or sugar subsidies or wheat consumption. Line it up with the introduction of TV, with the introduction of cable TV, with the birth of the internet. With NCLB and the resulting cancellation of recess and gym class. With offshoring manufacturing jobs and replacing them with call centers.

    As a species, we used to be a whole lot more active than we used to be. Don't look at "exercise" as a formal thing. Just look at how much people were moving rather than sitting. The average American puts less than 5,000 steps a day on a pedometer. That's officially "sedentary." An Amish housewife is 3 times as as active, reflecting the level of activity that was probably quite typical for the last several hundred, or even several thousand, years.

    The average American claims that they get 30 minutes of moderate exercise several times a week, yet somehow on any given day, only 5% of Americans report getting any vigorous exercise at all. When you put accelerometers on average americans who claim they get plenty of moderate exercise, you find that while 50% claim to get 150 minutes a week? Only 3.5 percent are actually getting even that minimal amount of exercise.
  • StevenjHaley
    StevenjHaley Posts: 38
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    However, I have also done my research into those against such a diet, based around the China Study that promotes a diet free from animal products based on significant scientific and medical research by some of the top minds in the nutrition field including T. Colin Campbell and Caldwell Esselstyn. (Watch the documentary Forks over Knives)

    I'll have a read up on this tomorrow as its bed time but "the China Study that promotes a diet free from animal products" whether that works or not is one thing but whether it's Chinese or not is another. I live in China and the Chinese seem to eat everything that moves!
  • bostonwolf
    bostonwolf Posts: 3,038 Member
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    I was a vegetarian, near vegan for almost 20 years. When I was in my twenties it worked just fine. by 40 I couldn't help but see that I had no energy, I was putting on tons of weight, I was utterly fatigued all the time. As I was beginning to experiment with adding in a little meat, my husband red the China Study and became fascinated. I started to read it but so many basic flaws in the causation that was being presumed which was actually just correlation. Believe me, i wanted to believe it b/c i validated what I'd been spouting since I'd been 17. I also was in love with Kris Carr's book Crazy Sexy Diet (more kudos to the vegan side) Of course, over the next few years the China Study research was widely debunked. Anyone switched from the SAD to China Study eating would certainly get healthier though. Then I had the pleasure of hearing both Gary Taubes and Mark Sisson speak. This stuff was against my grain, but they made fundamental sense. I had to read more. (I've come to not love Sisson as much). Then I read It Starts With Food (more Paleo) by the Hartwigs (this is perhaps the most entertaining and and went from now mostly vegetarian to doing their 30 day all whole foods, high quality Paleo. I never felt better in my life. I was sold! I have since come to understand that there isn't one true diet, but rather, there's what helps each person thrive best, and is sustainable at this particular moment in our lives. Once I found this brilliant article my Natasha Campbell-McBride, I got it. I could clearly see how it all fits together. And this is what has resonated in my own body, which is the only way we can really know what is true for us

    http://www.doctor-natasha.com/feeding-versus-cleansing.php

    I agree with you completely-- I watched a talked Gary Taubes gave on why people get fat and he really gave some interesting food for thought on fat accumulation being more complicated than thermodynamics.

    Agree, and I'm always amazed at how few people understand the difference between causation and correlation. Even research scientists who should know better.

    I do a version of the Primal diet (I add in beans) and that has worked wonders for me in terms of having steady energy through the day and losing body fat. I don't feel deprived and have tons of energy for working out.

    Conclusion: It works for me. Everyone should try to figure out what works for them and then act accordingly. None of the diets talked about on this thread are going to cause you any harm, and just about all of them are healthier than the Standard American Diet.

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