Stop the hate.

WannaDizzolve

Hate is typically the byproduct of jealousy and insecurity within ones self. Truth.

Also a byproduct of fear. Go Kelly!

soldier4242

"i totally changed my position on that issue because of an argument i saw/participated in online," said no one ever. Our species has a huge need to be "right" about our opinions. How about we just stop with the giant blue boxes and try to make some real change towards our beliefs. It's called, "walking the walk," for the uninitiated.

That way, we could have a civilized conversation this morning over coffee. The OP was right. Way too much hate going on here and nobody is going to change anyone's position. Just a bunch of smart monkeys throwing verbal feces at each other.

Good try, Dude

Namaste

Any time a topic comes up where there is more than one side to it someone like this will poke their head in and start telling everyone to just stop the conversation. There will be a bold assertion that it is complete futile to debate any topic ever because nobody will ever change their mind about anything.

I am not sure how the blue boxes are hurting you. I am not sure how your life would be improved we were all discussing things we all agree upon. The thing is you don't see many threads entitled "I think grass is green" then other people could respond by saying. I saw some grass yesterday and it was green. If this topic is too involved for your taste you don't have to take part in it. Go start your own thread about a topic where there will be no conflict whatsoever.

For the most part even though we disagree this conversation has been pretty civil. Nobody is name calling. All I have been doing is asking for logical justifications and I really don't see what your problem is.

foxro

What people "hate" is that it's no longer a matter of logic or personal choice. The pressure is to participate, and if you do not participate you are branded. e.g. a mayor of a major city here didn't go to a gay pride parade and because of that he was branded homophobic. He had to explain that on that day he wanted to be with his family on vacation and yet he is still judged. The whole phobic thing has totally gotten out of being anything logical.

I won't say that people are not wrongfully accused of being homophobic. I am sure it does happen and without doing any fact checking that scenario with the mayor would be a good example of it. That does not really address my point which is that a person who takes a position with curtails the writes of another human in the absence of a logical justification is treading upon the grounds of bigotry.

I do not think that the label homophobia should applied to just anyone. In fact even though I have never heard a single logical argument that is sufficient to justify the ban. I will give every single person that is against it a fair chance to present their case. It could simply be that I have not heard the logical argument yet. I will say that the vast majority of people who have been against gay marriage seem to present the same arguments as people against interracial relationships. Their bible says its bad or their parents were against it or they just plain don't like gay people. When I have people telling me that directly I can't assume that it never happens.

Thanks for the feedback. What I'm trying to do is discuss some of those reasons. Fear being one of them. In a prior post I indicated fear was based on branding homosexual men as abusing little boys. That's what we were taught ages ago so you learn to fear and then learn to hate. For many, those fears have not been extinguished. A group vies for equality and what needs be done is to demonstate and educate there is no reason to fear or be prejudiced. However, some but not all will resort with the phobia tactics, and that does nothing for their cause but continue the cycle of fear, resentment and "hate".

1223345

What straw men have been employed against you? Do you even know what that means? When you try to use logical rhetoric without knowledge of what it means you look silly.

Here, let me help you: "Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person."

I never made any argument against, or for gay people, gay marriage or gay relationships. Yet that seems to be what my comment was wrongfully turned into. Instead of commenting on my actual point, my words were twisted and distorted and turned into an argument on whether or not gays should marry. There is your strawman. Carry on.

soldier4242

What people "hate" is that it's no longer a matter of logic or personal choice. The pressure is to participate, and if you do not participate you are branded. e.g. a mayor of a major city here didn't go to a gay pride parade and because of that he was branded homophobic. He had to explain that on that day he wanted to be with his family on vacation and yet he is still judged. The whole phobic thing has totally gotten out of being anything logical.

I won't say that people are not wrongfully accused of being homophobic. I am sure it does happen and without doing any fact checking that scenario with the mayor would be a good example of it. That does not really address my point which is that a person who takes a position with curtails the writes of another human in the absence of a logical justification is treading upon the grounds of bigotry.

I do not think that the label homophobia should applied to just anyone. In fact even though I have never heard a single logical argument that is sufficient to justify the ban. I will give every single person that is against it a fair chance to present their case. It could simply be that I have not heard the logical argument yet. I will say that the vast majority of people who have been against gay marriage seem to present the same arguments as people against interracial relationships. Their bible says its bad or their parents were against it or they just plain don't like gay people. When I have people telling me that directly I can't assume that it never happens.

Thanks for the feedback. What I'm trying to do is discuss some of those reasons. Fear being one of them. In a prior post I indicated fear was based on branding homosexual men as abusing little boys. That's what we were taught ages ago so you learn to fear and then learn to hate. For many, those fears have not been extinguished. A group vies for equality and what needs be done is to demonstrate and educate there is no reason to fear or be prejudiced. However, some but not all will resort with the phobia tactics, and that does nothing for their cause but continue the cycle of fear, resentment and "hate".

I would agree with you on that. The thing to remember is that there has been a training going both ways. I remember my drill instructor in basic bragging to me that when they found out one of the people he went to basic with was gay they beat him black and blue. I felt a little bit ill as he proudly went in to detail about how they went about it. He even chuckled a bit when he said that the guy later died while in the infirmary. I asked if anyone was disciplined for that and he acted like he didn't understand the question. His response was something like "Of course not."

Fear does cause people to make illogical and irrational choices. Think about which side has had to deal with the lion's share of real fear. It should be expected that some gay people will lash out in any way that they can. The older ones in particular that had to deal with a much darker and blatant bigotry. It will take time for their approach to become more balanced. It really doesn't help their cause to brand everyone as homophobic so I do hope this happens sooner rather than later but I can understand why it is an issue to begin with.

foxro

Had to be horrible for you as a soldier, whose mission it is to protect the USA and its people, to have soldiers beat on an innodent citizen, and then that citizen's feelings after about his freedoms and country. Take care soldier and I hope things improve !!!

clydethecat

those of you that "live and let live" and "everybody love everybody" are better people than i am.

i hate the pedophile that ruined my cousins life. that hate makes me vigilant in making sure that never happens to another one of the kids i know. and the guy is out of jail now, and that hate fuels me to check up on him on the regular to make sure hes not living near children. (i do all i can, which is very limited, to make sure this doesnt happen again)

i also hate the rapist that almost killed a friend of mine. she was in the hospital for a month. he object raped her and now she cant have kids. she will never be the same. hes in jail now, but he'll be out in a few years.

so can i hate these people, or should i "live and let live" should i "love everybody"

there are sick people in this world that should be hated, they should be thought of as lesser than. they ruin lives, they are heinous monsters.

great to live and let live "normal" people. but i'm sorry, i hate rapists, child molesters, wife beaters, people who beat and neglect animals. and so on.

so i'm not as forgiving, maybe i'm not as good a person as you are.

soldier4242

What straw men have been employed against you? Do you even know what that means? When you try to use logical rhetoric without knowledge of what it means you look silly.

Here, let me help you: "Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person."

I never made any argument against, or for gay people, gay marriage or gay relationships. Yet that seems to be what my comment was wrongfully turned into. Instead of commenting on my actual point, my words were twisted and distorted and turned into an argument on whether or not gays should marry. There is your strawman. Carry on.

You sited gay marriage as an example of how someone could be against something without being a bigot. I then explained that the opposition would have to have a logical justification that extends beyond a simply personal preference. I am simply taking the position that one of the pillars you are supporting your argument upon is insufficient to support the weight. This does not by any means constitute a straw man because at no point do I claim your central point is invalid.

Think of it like this. If person X says, "The world is round because all dogs are black." Person Y could contest the claim that all dogs are not black. At no point is Person Y committing a straw man because the central point has not been addressed yet. Now person Y might think the world is a square but that does not make the assertion that "all dogs are black" true.

In fact the only thing I have stated about your central point is a slight amendment which you have not addressed at all so I am not even sure if you are against it. I think that a person could have an objection to another's action without having any bigotry at all so long as they can support the position logically and that it reaches beyond person preference.

Examples to that affect have been given siting both gay and interracial marriage. Rather than address any of that you instead claimed that you were the victim of a straw man attack. I hope that I have explained sufficiently that there are no actual straw man fallacies going here and that we can move forward from here.

soldier4242

Had to be horrible for you as a soldier, whose mission it is to protect the USA and its people, to have soldiers beat on an innodent citizen, and then that citizen's feelings after about his freedoms and country. Take care soldier and I hope things improve !!!

I think things are better now or at least that is what I tell myself. It used to be black people and asians were also subjected to this kind of violence. I think progress is being made. People minds are changing. Some people overreact and others think that times were better when people were beaten for being different but there has always been an ever present voice of dissension standing in opposition to injustices like this. The optimist in me tells me that things are getting better.

BrendaLee

Humans are a curious and complex animal, highly driven by pack mentality. In truth, though, we have it much harder than many other species. Self-awareness, conscious thought, spiritual curiosity, an awareness of the universe and pondering our place in it, knowing we die but not knowing what happens to us after we do -- we have a lot to deal with, and it makes sense we're kind of broken. We don't just hate more than any other species, though. We love more, too. Right?

1223345

What straw men have been employed against you? Do you even know what that means? When you try to use logical rhetoric without knowledge of what it means you look silly.

Here, let me help you: "Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person."

I never made any argument against, or for gay people, gay marriage or gay relationships. Yet that seems to be what my comment was wrongfully turned into. Instead of commenting on my actual point, my words were twisted and distorted and turned into an argument on whether or not gays should marry. There is your strawman. Carry on.

You sited gay marriage as an example of how someone could be against something without being a bigot. I then explained that the opposition would have to have a logical justification that extends beyond a simply personal preference. I am simply taking the position that one of the pillars you are supporting your argument upon is insufficient to support the weight. This does not by any means constitute a straw man because at no point do I claim your central point is invalid.

Think of it like this. If person X says, "The world is round because all dogs are black." Person Y could contest the claim that all dogs are not black. At no point is Person Y committing a straw man because the central point has not been addressed yet. Now person Y might think the world is a square but that does not make the assertion that "all dogs are black" true.

In fact the only thing I have stated about your central point is a slight amendment which you have not addressed at all so I am not even sure if you are against it. I think that a person could have an objection to another's action without having any bigotry at all so long as they can support the position logically and that it reaches beyond person preference.

Examples to that affect have been given siting both gay and interracial marriage. Rather than address any of that you instead claimed that you were the victim of a straw man attack. I hope that I have explained sufficiently that there are no actual straw man fallacies going here and that we can move forward from here.

If you go back and read the comments, you will see exactly what I am talking about. Good day.

soldier4242

If you go back and read the comments, you will see exactly what I am talking about. Good day.

Ok I guess she just checked out for the day. I am a bit surprised. I felt I did a pretty good job of trying to set the record straight and setting fire to any straw men that might have been created so that we could get the focus back to crux of the matter.

avababy05

I don't expect everyone to love everyone.

To each his own to an extent.

I do get disturbed by indifference and the inability of some people to see outside themselves and how their actions ( or inactions) may affect others.

JanaCanada

(Lets try to keep this positive that's why it's in chit-chat.)

Here? :huh:
Good luck with that! :laugh:

cuterbee

We don't just hate more than any other species, though. We love more, too. Right?

Naw. Dogs are much better at that than humans are.

soldier4242

Humans are a curious and complex animal, highly driven by pack mentality. In truth, though, we have it much harder than many other species. Self-awareness, conscious thought, spiritual curiosity, an awareness of the universe and pondering our place in it, knowing we die but not knowing what happens to us after we do -- we have a lot to deal with, and it makes sense we're kind of broken. We don't just hate more than any other species, though. We love more, too. Right?

I think that is pretty well put. We have these advanced minds and we are capable of great things. Yet we are still backward compatible will the minds that we evolved from. We grew up in an uncaring world that to our primitive ancestors must have seemed like it was always trying to kill us.

At first they anthropomorphized nature and its components and tried to solve their problems by praying to the correct god. After a while we eventually got the point we learned how to use our minds to properly diagnose the actual causes of our woes and we learned real solutions.

Today we get to benefit from all that hard work that was done before us. Yet we still contain within our minds traces of that ancestor who through the sky wanted to kill us. In his day fear was a useful tool in staying alive. It is difficult to set it aside completely since we owe our survival at least in part to its existence but since there isn't a large predator to fear, other things are put in to its place.

avababy05

Oh, come on. Everyone from anyplace other than New York hates the Yankees.

and this.Go SOX!!!!

Absonthebrain

"You be good to me
I'll be good to you
We'll be together
We'll see each other
Walk away with victory"

-Al Green

^^^THIS!!! I love Al Green, so wise!

soldier4242

We don't just hate more than any other species, though. We love more, too. Right?

Naw. Dogs are much better at that than humans are.

I think we do love more as well. In the animal kingdom dogs included survival is so often reserved for those that can pull it off independently. Humans are pretty darn unique in that we will protect the weakest among us. I saw on the national geographic a runt off a litter of wolves was simply left to starve to death by its own mother. For a human to do something like that would be unthinkable.

1223345

If you go back and read the comments, you will see exactly what I am talking about. Good day.

Ok I guess she just checked out for the day. I am a bit surprised. I felt I did a pretty good job of trying to set the record straight and setting fire to any straw men that might have been created so that we could get the focus back to crux of the matter.

If you did not see the comments that were directed at the gay marriage issue then you are simply not looking. I don't owe an argument to any one. I say what I want to say, and then leave the back and forth games to those who think that arguing with perfect strangers on an online forum is the most important thing to do in the whole day. Now if you will excuse me, real life awaits.