For those on LCHF/Paleo here is a cool infographic

medic2038

I agree with both camps in this thread.

Insulin itself isn't the devil, it's plenty beneficial and without it you'll die.

Too much insulin for too long however will make you fat (or at least gain fat easier).

I would wager that even despite absence of an official "diagnosis" there's plenty of people walking around with SOME degree of insulin resistance (I looked at a thing from the American Diabetic Association earlier that had data saying roughly 20% of the population was "borderline" or "pre-diabetic) however don't qualify as type 2 diabetics. IR is a metabolic disorder and throws the calories in/out, out of whack.

Thermodynamics doesn't magically disappear in humans. Metabolism however is very nuanced and hormones play a huge part in that.

pcastagner

Really? I top out at about 3000 calories a day in steak. I just physically can not fit anymore in my body. Carbohydrates on the other hand, I think I topped out at about 8000 one time. That was a good day. ;D

I'd like to see an experiment with someone following a standard 65% fat calories, 30% protein calories, 5% carbohydrate calories diet at a caloric surplus. So far, I have yet to communicate or discover of anyone following such a diet who has increased body fat percentage.

I have a gift lol


The fattier the cut, the better. If you have leg of lamb out, I can finish it by morning. The. Whole. Leg.

myofibril

Cute infographic or peer reviewed medical journal?

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/985705-paleo-diet-assoc-with-negchanges-to-bloodlipid-in-healthysub

EDIT: I don't respond well to things waving in my face. Unless it's pie.

Did you actually read the thesis?

I pretty much agree with much of it. It states that a Paleo style diet has many positive characteristics to application for obese / type II diabetic populations to include high levels of satiety, freedom from the burden of calorie counting, glycemic control and favourable body composition all whilst eating ad libitum.

It quite rightly in my opinion raises the question of whether healthy, active populations should be ramping up fat intake in particular excessively (I don't think they should unless there is a specific medical reason to crowd out carbs and replace with something else and the thesis readily acknowledges that further study is necessary to determine if macronutrient control should be advised upon - I think yes.)

Finally you will note the limitations in terms of determining what will happen over the long term, the lack of control of food intake and the modest amount of food logs returned (only 8) which was then extrapolated across the whole group.)

Double finally, I think the infographic is a bit simplistic as well.

neanderthin

Cute infographic or peer reviewed medical journal?

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/985705-paleo-diet-assoc-with-negchanges-to-bloodlipid-in-healthysub

EDIT: I don't respond well to things waving in my face. Unless it's pie.

Not peer reviewed, no medical journals, just school work. It's a thesis that can be found on Denman Undergraduate Research Forum.

ohmscheeks

I am not LCHF/Paleo, but I eat bacon and eggs for breakfast most days.

pcastagner

Cute infographic or peer reviewed medical journal?

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/985705-paleo-diet-assoc-with-negchanges-to-bloodlipid-in-healthysub

EDIT: I don't respond well to things waving in my face. Unless it's pie.

Did you actually read the thesis?

I pretty much agree with much of it. It states that a Paleo style diet has many positive characteristics to application for obese / type II diabetic populations to include high levels of satiety, freedom from the burden of calorie counting, glycemic control and favourable body composition all whilst eating ad libitum.

It quite rightly in my opinion raises the question of whether healthy, active populations should be ramping up fat intake in particular excessively (I don't think they should unless there is a specific medical reason to crowd out carbs and replace with something else and the thesis readily acknowledges that further study is necessary to determine if macronutrient control should be advised upon - I think yes.)

Finally you will note the limitations in terms of determining what will happen over the long term, the lack of control of food intake and the modest amount of food logs returned (only 8) which was then extrapolated across the whole group.)

Double finally, I think the infographic is a bit simplistic as well.

If you apply a food restriction to an obese person, and it eliminates some of their habitual high calorie foods, they will lose weight for a time. And voila, your numbers look good.

Actual long term experience though, shows that one simply adapts to the new restriction and the pattern of overeating resumes, with the associated increase in body fat.


In my case, paleo didn't eliminate my habitual overeating foods. So I just got fatter.


It's counting calories that set me free, along with 18:6. I can effectively maintain without tracking on an 18:6 schedule, using what I learned from calorie counting. However, when I try to cut, I find myself overdoing my deficit unless I track calories.


How many times do we have to read the story of someone doing well for a time on paleo, then stalling out or gaining again? Paleo is fine if you can afford it, but there is nothing magical about it that allows you to defy basic thermodynamics. Put more energy into a system than you take out, and it grows.

neanderthin

I don't think many PCOS patients with insulin resistance will entirely agree with you. I do both (eat clean and keep an eye on calories) and it's the only thing that has ever worked.

you might want to put that with a * next to it in your main post.

in any case, the info graphic is oversimplification and also incorrect.

They seems to have forgotten that before carbs are stored as fat that ATP is produced first, then glycogen is stored in our muscle and that's 400g's of carbs, probably more. And if all that is taken care of and your immediately storing carbs as adipose tissue, then you should back away from the buffet.:happy:

neanderthin

Cute infographic or peer reviewed medical journal?

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/985705-paleo-diet-assoc-with-negchanges-to-bloodlipid-in-healthysub

EDIT: I don't respond well to things waving in my face. Unless it's pie.

Did you actually read the thesis?

I pretty much agree with much of it. It states that a Paleo style diet has many positive characteristics to application for obese / type II diabetic populations to include high levels of satiety, freedom from the burden of calorie counting, glycemic control and favourable body composition all whilst eating ad libitum.

It quite rightly in my opinion raises the question of whether healthy, active populations should be ramping up fat intake in particular excessively (I don't think they should unless there is a specific medical reason to crowd out carbs and replace with something else and the thesis readily acknowledges that further study is necessary to determine if macronutrient control should be advised upon - I think yes.)

Finally you will note the limitations in terms of determining what will happen over the long term, the lack of control of food intake and the modest amount of food logs returned (only 8) which was then extrapolated across the whole group.)

Double finally, I think the infographic is a bit simplistic as well.

How many times do we have to read the story of someone doing well for a time on paleo, then stalling out or gaining again? Paleo is fine if you can afford it, but there is nothing magical about it that allows you to defy basic thermodynamics. Put more energy into a system than you take out, and it grows.

That's true for 90% of diets and has nothing to do with the actual diet but the person ability to adhere to that diet. People even fail lifestyle changes, why because it's hard to break old habits.

pcastagner

Cute infographic or peer reviewed medical journal?

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/985705-paleo-diet-assoc-with-negchanges-to-bloodlipid-in-healthysub

EDIT: I don't respond well to things waving in my face. Unless it's pie.

Did you actually read the thesis?

I pretty much agree with much of it. It states that a Paleo style diet has many positive characteristics to application for obese / type II diabetic populations to include high levels of satiety, freedom from the burden of calorie counting, glycemic control and favourable body composition all whilst eating ad libitum.

It quite rightly in my opinion raises the question of whether healthy, active populations should be ramping up fat intake in particular excessively (I don't think they should unless there is a specific medical reason to crowd out carbs and replace with something else and the thesis readily acknowledges that further study is necessary to determine if macronutrient control should be advised upon - I think yes.)

Finally you will note the limitations in terms of determining what will happen over the long term, the lack of control of food intake and the modest amount of food logs returned (only 8) which was then extrapolated across the whole group.)

Double finally, I think the infographic is a bit simplistic as well.

How many times do we have to read the story of someone doing well for a time on paleo, then stalling out or gaining again? Paleo is fine if you can afford it, but there is nothing magical about it that allows you to defy basic thermodynamics. Put more energy into a system than you take out, and it grows.

That's true for 90% of diets and has nothing to do with the actual diet but the person ability to adhere to that diet. People even fail lifestyle changes, why because it's hard to break old habits.

I adhered 100% to paleo restrictions but didn't limit portions. I ate like a fat caveman. I don't have a photo of the results because I was too embarrassed to take one. That's when I started doing real research not aimed at finding a loophole that would allow me to get out of portion control and continue my overeating.

Now I adhere 100% to portion control and don't restrict food choices beyond the high protein requirement.

Since paleo "frees you from calorie counting" it will, unless one also practices calorie restriction to actually lose weight consistently in the long term, also free you from the burden of having a six pack. Further, eating carbs including wheat and other grains, as well as legumes, will not interfere with fat loss or encourage new fat stores.

I find it laughable when someone practices calorie restriction, reaches their goals, then attributes it to a magic diet based on pseudoscience. The underlying agent of change is application of the laws of thermodynamics to create a less complex energy system by letting out some energy at a faster rate than it is put into the system. Yes, food choices can make slight changes in composition, but if you switch to paleo and don't actually apply a calorie deficit, that is exactly what you get: small changes.

pcastagner

.

neanderthin

Cute infographic or peer reviewed medical journal?

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/985705-paleo-diet-assoc-with-negchanges-to-bloodlipid-in-healthysub

EDIT: I don't respond well to things waving in my face. Unless it's pie.

Did you actually read the thesis?

I pretty much agree with much of it. It states that a Paleo style diet has many positive characteristics to application for obese / type II diabetic populations to include high levels of satiety, freedom from the burden of calorie counting, glycemic control and favourable body composition all whilst eating ad libitum.

It quite rightly in my opinion raises the question of whether healthy, active populations should be ramping up fat intake in particular excessively (I don't think they should unless there is a specific medical reason to crowd out carbs and replace with something else and the thesis readily acknowledges that further study is necessary to determine if macronutrient control should be advised upon - I think yes.)

Finally you will note the limitations in terms of determining what will happen over the long term, the lack of control of food intake and the modest amount of food logs returned (only 8) which was then extrapolated across the whole group.)

Double finally, I think the infographic is a bit simplistic as well.

How many times do we have to read the story of someone doing well for a time on paleo, then stalling out or gaining again? Paleo is fine if you can afford it, but there is nothing magical about it that allows you to defy basic thermodynamics. Put more energy into a system than you take out, and it grows.

That's true for 90% of diets and has nothing to do with the actual diet but the person ability to adhere to that diet. People even fail lifestyle changes, why because it's hard to break old habits.

I adhered 100% to paleo restrictions but didn't limit portions. I ate like a fat caveman. I don't have a photo of the results because I was too embarrassed to take one. That's when I started doing real research not aimed at finding a loophole that would allow me to get out of portion control and continue my overeating.

Now I adhere 100% to portion control and don't restrict food choices beyond the high protein requirement.

Since paleo "frees you from calorie counting" it will, unless one also practices calorie restriction to actually lose weight consistently in the long term, also free you from the burden of having a six pack. Further, eating carbs including wheat and other grains, as well as legumes, will not interfere with fat loss or encourage new fat stores.

I find it laughable when someone practices calorie restriction, reaches their goals, then attributes it to a magic diet based on pseudoscience. The underlying agent of change is application of the laws of thermodynamics to create a less complex energy system by letting out some energy at a faster rate than it is put into the system. Yes, food choices can make slight changes in composition, but if you switch to paleo and don't actually apply a calorie deficit, that is exactly what you get: small changes.

I agree with you btw. The combination of refined carbs, fat, sugar and salt is pretty irresistible it appears in NA considering it's the 900lb gorilla and poster boy for consuming those foods. these also happen to be pretty cheap for producers to get their hands on as well (heavily subsidized). Eliminate those foods, and someone has a better opportunity to adhere to calorie restriction and most low/er carb studies show this in ad libitum situations, are there exceptions, sure.

3dogsrunning

Livestrong is not a credible source. They very frequently have articles posted that completely contradict each other.

tomcornhole

A calorie is not a calorie. That's factually incorrect. Thermal Effect of Food makes that statement patently false. You can argue the magnitude of TEF and whether it matters, but you CANNOT state that a calorie is a calorie regardless of macro type.

Argue with that.

billsica

I'm going to eat bacon, eggs and a bagel. Wash that down with coffee, and a pop tart. Will be a good breakfast! :flowerforyou:

neanderthin

A calorie is not a calorie. That's factually incorrect. Thermal Effect of Food makes that statement patently false. You can argue the magnitude of TEF and whether it matters, but you CANNOT state that a calorie is a calorie regardless of macro type.

Argue with that.

I don't think that was her argument. I believe the poster meant that not all calories are created equal, just a guess though.

pcastagner

Relying on thermogenic foods to lose weight or control it is a joke. It's never going to produce results because you gain energy on each transaction and you don't wind up using more energy to digest the less thermogenic foods you eat alongside the thermogenic ones. It's just more pseudoscience that fails to realize metabolism is a set of discreet chemical reactions lumped together for conceptual reasons.


@neanderthin we are now on the same page. The salt, fat, sugar combo is like a drug. I actually feel both salt and refined sugar should be removed from the GRAS list and regulated as potentially harmful substances, because they are.

Like I said, I have nothing against paleo, but I do have a big problem with the wild claims and the tautology that can lead to some pretty stupid choices (like eliminating beans when you can just eat and enzyme from Aspergilus niger to go with it). I also reject the idea that everything was hunky-dory and wonderful and healthy in ancestral times. Misery and illness are part of the human condition and it's also really typical for people to imagine its all due to our modern ways, whether because we have offended the gods or because we started eating grains.

CoachReddy

Relying on thermogenic foods to lose weight or control it is a joke. It's never going to produce results because you gain energy on each transaction and you don't wind up using more energy to digest the less thermogenic foods you eat alongside the thermogenic ones. It's just more pseudoscience that fails to realize metabolism is a set of discreet chemical reactions lumped together for conceptual reasons.


@neanderthin we are now on the same page. The salt, fat, sugar combo is like a drug. I actually feel both salt and refined sugar should be removed from the GRAS list and regulated as potentially harmful substances, because they are.

Like I said, I have nothing against paleo, but I do have a big problem with the wild claims and the tautology that can lead to some pretty stupid choices (like eliminating beans when you can just eat and enzyme from Aspergilus niger to go with it). I also reject the idea that everything was hunky-dory and wonderful and healthy in ancestral times. Misery and illness are part of the human condition and it's also really typical for people to imagine its all due to our modern ways, whether because we have offended the gods or because we started eating grains.

i just don't see how you can prove that's true until we settled down into communities and created agriculture. Killed by sabertooth tigers? sure. by misery and illness? I've never seen proof of that.

CoachReddy

Since paleo "frees you from calorie counting" it will, unless one also practices calorie restriction to actually lose weight consistently in the long term, also free you from the burden of having a six pack. Further, eating carbs including wheat and other grains, as well as legumes, will not interfere with fat loss or encourage new fat stores.

also - i have a sixpack

pcastagner

Since paleo "frees you from calorie counting" it will, unless one also practices calorie restriction to actually lose weight consistently in the long term, also free you from the burden of having a six pack. Further, eating carbs including wheat and other grains, as well as legumes, will not interfere with fat loss or encourage new fat stores.

also - i have a sixpack

Because you don't eat too much. Did you start out overweight, switch to paleo with no calorie restriction, and get to where you are now?

Tell you what, lets try something. I will select all your food, following paleo rules strictly, but you will have to eat at a surplus of 3000 calories per day. In 6 months we can check in your six pack. Put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.

JezzD1

A calorie isn't a calorie isn't a calorie. Protein, fat and carbohydrates all affect your body in different ways, chemically speaking.

For some people, carbohydrates trigger overeating and binging and being on a LCHF diet can lead to steady insulin levels, reduce hunger and overall less calories taken in for the day. See: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81gPAyL9CJL.png

The human body has a very quick digestive process for carbohydrates and a very quick and easy mechanism to turn sugars and starches into fat if they are not soon used as fuel or in other scenarios. The human body has a slower way to turn excess protein into glucose and from there into fat, if it is not used. Dietary fat is very difficult to turn into body fat.

Paleo is NOT low-carb-high-fat. A ketogenic diet can be paleo, and paleo CAN BE ketogenic, but they are not one and the same. If you got fat on paleo, cool story, that's not keto. I haven't heard of a single scenario where someone following a ketogenic diet has gained body fat unless they're secretly binging on donuts and cake and bread and pasta and potatoes and candy all the time (my girlfriend had a really hard time with the amount of beef and butter I eat due to sweet tooth cravings, so she has since switched to an IIFYM calorie counting dietary restriction).

Agreed, paleo is not a low carb diet it just helps to teach you where to get your good carbs from for those of us that are used to grabbing a bagel and calling it healthy. you get all your needed macro/micro nutrients and it is a healthy sustainable long term way to eat. If you got fat on paleo you were doing it wrong.