"You can't build muscle on a calorie deficit"
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Yep. And if you couldn't see it when you were lighter before, it doesn't mean it wasn't there. That's why a lot of people are "skinny fat". You can be lighter and still have fat covering your muscle.
Muscle has ALWAYS been there. They increase in SIZE due to glycogen/water retention from lifting and will stay "blown" up while you continue. If you can "see" your muscle now compared to when you couldn't.I've gained a lot of muscle, mainly on thighs from squats and lunges in the last 5 months on 1200 calories. more muscle than I've ever had. i train at least 7hrs a week and lift weights and i have biceps now lol...all on a calorie deficit. lost 49lb in that time too, so yes u can 100% increase muscle mass on low calorie intake.
While a very overweight/obese person can add some muscle in the beginning, I guarantee you it's continued happening in 5 months while on a calorie deficit.
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I have changed my profile pic to show u what I'm talking about as I don't know how to add pics here. I was slim before children, standard slim legs. Then I gained a lot of weight through Chinese and not being very active. Since Jan I've trained my *kitten* off, started from 14hrs a week but due to shin splints and sometimes sore knees etc I now do minimum of 7 hrs, but usually not much more. The definition of muscle in my legs have NEVER been there before!! They are solid apart from just under my bum, I'm working on that! I have never, even when 3 stone lighter than I am now, had my legs with nowhere near as much muscle as this. I eat 1200 calories and at least 900 calories from that is either chicken, eggs, peanut butter, turkey, bacon and the odd diet whey shake. I am sure when u have fat stores u don't need a high calorie intake as u use your fat stores along with what u consume. I KNOW I'm decreasing my bf% and increasing my muscle mass.
The muscle has always been there though. Strength can/will increase without adding mass, and definition doesn't necessarily come with muscle growth as much as fat loss. If you lose the fat over the muscle it will become more defined.
No my legs were a lot slimmer as there wasn't the muscle mass there when slim as I didnt train. They weren't there when fat as I didn't train. The muscle is bigger and more defined cos I've trained and built this muscle. When I lose the rest of the fat, yes they will be more defined, hopefully under my bum more so. If I lost the weight without training then there would be no definition and it wouldn't be solid muscle because that muscle would not have been built without the training!
The appearance of muscle definition is related to the reduction in body fat in that region. Definition is not the same as increase in muscle mass. You can have an increase in muscle mass without a reduction body fat, but you cannot have the appearance of definition without a reduction in body fat%. I think I said it before in this thread, that's why bodybuilders go through a "bulking" phase and then a cutting phase. The bulking phase is to add muscle mass and the cutting phase is reduce bodyfat to improve their muscle definition for the show they're prepping for. If you could add muscle mass during a calorie deficit there would be no need to have two different phases.0 -
You can gain muscle on a calorie deficit IF:
-Your muscles are completely untrained.
-You have enough body fat.
-Your calorie deficit is modest and you net at least your BMR.
A lot of people meet these criteria starting out and will experience the beginner gains phenomenon, but not eating 1200 calories.
Your "new" muscles are probably a result of increased definition from fat loss, and increased water/glycogen storage within the muscles from exertion.I have changed my profile pic to show u what I'm talking about as I don't know how to add pics here. I was slim before children, standard slim legs. Then I gained a lot of weight through Chinese and not being very active. Since Jan I've trained my *kitten* off, started from 14hrs a week but due to shin splints and sometimes sore knees etc I now do minimum of 7 hrs, but usually not much more. The definition of muscle in my legs have NEVER been there before!! They are solid apart from just under my bum, I'm working on that! I have never, even when 3 stone lighter than I am now, had my legs with nowhere near as much muscle as this. I eat 1200 calories and at least 900 calories from that is either chicken, eggs, peanut butter, turkey, bacon and the odd diet whey shake. I am sure when u have fat stores u don't need a high calorie intake as u use your fat stores along with what u consume. I KNOW I'm decreasing my bf% and increasing my muscle mass.
When you gain weight, even if you're just sitting on your butt eating chinese food, some of it will be muscle. You are revealing the muscle you built during the period you gained weight.0 -
Okay not to discourage you, it's much more likely you "built muscle" from being overweight. The accumulating weight over time added weight which your legs (through regular work of walking, squatting, etc.) compensated by increasing in size. This ISN'T uncommon amongst people who gain weight. You're now just stripping the fat away to reveal them.
Muscle has ALWAYS been there. They increase in SIZE due to glycogen/water retention from lifting and will stay "blown" up while you continue. If you can "see" your muscle now compared to when you couldn't.I've gained a lot of muscle, mainly on thighs from squats and lunges in the last 5 months on 1200 calories. more muscle than I've ever had. i train at least 7hrs a week and lift weights and i have biceps now lol...all on a calorie deficit. lost 49lb in that time too, so yes u can 100% increase muscle mass on low calorie intake.
While a very overweight/obese person can add some muscle in the beginning, I guarantee you it's continued happening in 5 months while on a calorie deficit.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I have changed my profile pic to show u what I'm talking about as I don't know how to add pics here. I was slim before children, standard slim legs. Then I gained a lot of weight through Chinese and not being very active. Since Jan I've trained my *kitten* off, started from 14hrs a week but due to shin splints and sometimes sore knees etc I now do minimum of 7 hrs, but usually not much more. The definition of muscle in my legs have NEVER been there before!! They are solid apart from just under my bum, I'm working on that! I have never, even when 3 stone lighter than I am now, had my legs with nowhere near as much muscle as this. I eat 1200 calories and at least 900 calories from that is either chicken, eggs, peanut butter, turkey, bacon and the odd diet whey shake. I am sure when u have fat stores u don't need a high calorie intake as u use your fat stores along with what u consume. I KNOW I'm decreasing my bf% and increasing my muscle mass.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
^ He knows what he's talking about.
Okay not to discourage you, it's much more likely you "built muscle" from being overweight. The accumulating weight over time added weight which your legs (through regular work of walking, squatting, etc.) compensated by increasing in size. This ISN'T uncommon amongst people who gain weight. You're now just stripping the fat away to reveal them.
Muscle has ALWAYS been there. They increase in SIZE due to glycogen/water retention from lifting and will stay "blown" up while you continue. If you can "see" your muscle now compared to when you couldn't.I've gained a lot of muscle, mainly on thighs from squats and lunges in the last 5 months on 1200 calories. more muscle than I've ever had. i train at least 7hrs a week and lift weights and i have biceps now lol...all on a calorie deficit. lost 49lb in that time too, so yes u can 100% increase muscle mass on low calorie intake.
While a very overweight/obese person can add some muscle in the beginning, I guarantee you it's continued happening in 5 months while on a calorie deficit.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I have changed my profile pic to show u what I'm talking about as I don't know how to add pics here. I was slim before children, standard slim legs. Then I gained a lot of weight through Chinese and not being very active. Since Jan I've trained my *kitten* off, started from 14hrs a week but due to shin splints and sometimes sore knees etc I now do minimum of 7 hrs, but usually not much more. The definition of muscle in my legs have NEVER been there before!! They are solid apart from just under my bum, I'm working on that! I have never, even when 3 stone lighter than I am now, had my legs with nowhere near as much muscle as this. I eat 1200 calories and at least 900 calories from that is either chicken, eggs, peanut butter, turkey, bacon and the odd diet whey shake. I am sure when u have fat stores u don't need a high calorie intake as u use your fat stores along with what u consume. I KNOW I'm decreasing my bf% and increasing my muscle mass.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Great job on the loss and toning though! :flowerforyou:0 -
Yep. And if you couldn't see it when you were lighter before, it doesn't mean it wasn't there. That's why a lot of people are "skinny fat". You can be lighter and still have fat covering your muscle.
Muscle has ALWAYS been there. They increase in SIZE due to glycogen/water retention from lifting and will stay "blown" up while you continue. If you can "see" your muscle now compared to when you couldn't.I've gained a lot of muscle, mainly on thighs from squats and lunges in the last 5 months on 1200 calories. more muscle than I've ever had. i train at least 7hrs a week and lift weights and i have biceps now lol...all on a calorie deficit. lost 49lb in that time too, so yes u can 100% increase muscle mass on low calorie intake.
While a very overweight/obese person can add some muscle in the beginning, I guarantee you it's continued happening in 5 months while on a calorie deficit.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I have changed my profile pic to show u what I'm talking about as I don't know how to add pics here. I was slim before children, standard slim legs. Then I gained a lot of weight through Chinese and not being very active. Since Jan I've trained my *kitten* off, started from 14hrs a week but due to shin splints and sometimes sore knees etc I now do minimum of 7 hrs, but usually not much more. The definition of muscle in my legs have NEVER been there before!! They are solid apart from just under my bum, I'm working on that! I have never, even when 3 stone lighter than I am now, had my legs with nowhere near as much muscle as this. I eat 1200 calories and at least 900 calories from that is either chicken, eggs, peanut butter, turkey, bacon and the odd diet whey shake. I am sure when u have fat stores u don't need a high calorie intake as u use your fat stores along with what u consume. I KNOW I'm decreasing my bf% and increasing my muscle mass.
The muscle has always been there though. Strength can/will increase without adding mass, and definition doesn't necessarily come with muscle growth as much as fat loss. If you lose the fat over the muscle it will become more defined.
No my legs were a lot slimmer as there wasn't the muscle mass there when slim as I didnt train. They weren't there when fat as I didn't train. The muscle is bigger and more defined cos I've trained and built this muscle. When I lose the rest of the fat, yes they will be more defined, hopefully under my bum more so. If I lost the weight without training then there would be no definition and it wouldn't be solid muscle because that muscle would not have been built without the training!
The appearance of muscle definition is related to the reduction in body fat in that region. Definition is not the same as increase in muscle mass. You can have an increase in muscle mass without a reduction body fat, but you cannot have the appearance of definition without a reduction in body fat%. I think I said it before in this thread, that's why bodybuilders go through a "bulking" phase and then a cutting phase. The bulking phase is to add muscle mass and the cutting phase is reduce bodyfat to improve their muscle definition for the show they're prepping for. If you could add muscle mass during a calorie deficit there would be no need to have two different phases.
^^Yep0 -
bump0
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bump bump bump0
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Silver matchstick approx 2 1/2" with opening doors
:laugh: 0 -
yes you can build on a deficit if your nutrition is right, but you need to be at an excess to get really big0
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I'm so confused. I'm 5'0.5", 94lbs and my scales tell me repeatedly (over a few months of no weight loss) that my BF% is 17.5. I have just started weight training mixed with with cardio and am eating about 1200 calories a day (but I rarely eat back exercise calories). I really have no muscle, I never have... I do eat a lot of protein though, 105g today, and 1200 calories. I do weight training and cardio about 5 times a week - will I not build muscle from this...?0
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Not really. Maybe if you were a genetic freak, but muscle hypertrophy requires not only protein, but enough calories to support it's use. Calorie deficit is catabolic while calorie surplus is anabolic. To build muscle, is being anabolic.I'm so confused. I'm 5'0.5", 94lbs and my scales tell me repeatedly (over a few months of no weight loss) that my BF% is 17.5. I have just started weight training mixed with with cardio and am eating about 1200 calories a day (but I rarely eat back exercise calories). I really have no muscle, I never have... I do eat a lot of protein though, 105g today, and 1200 calories. I do weight training and cardio about 5 times a week - will I not build muscle from this...?
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
ok ok so for example...for an experiment we get identical twins. They're overweight men. both have spent years barely moving and eating loads. you then put both on the exact same diet, say 1200 cals. 1 stays inactive and the other trains 10th hours a week. 6 months later i would assume the twin who trains would have a lot more muscle mass than the inactive twin. but you are telling me that there is no way you can gain mass on a calorie deficit, and I've just stripped my fat to reveal the muscle. i think this is a case of agree to disagree as i know my own body, and i know i had barely any muscle and it wasnt just hidden by fat.0
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ok ok so for example...for an experiment we get identical twins. They're overweight men. both have spent years barely moving and eating loads. you then put both on the exact same diet, say 1200 cals. 1 stays inactive and the other trains 10th hours a week. 6 months later i would assume the twin who trains would have a lot more muscle mass than the inactive twin. but you are telling me that there is no way you can gain mass on a calorie deficit, and I've just stripped my fat to reveal the muscle. i think this is a case of agree to disagree as i know my own body, and i know i had barely any muscle and it wasnt just hidden by fat.
The twin that had trained would have more muscle because:
1. He trained so he retained his current muscle. His brother would likely lose muscle with no training and such a severe deficit.
2. He is new to training. Most have said already, people new to training can gain a little new muscle.
3. He was overweight which also allows for some newbie muscle gains.
But even with all this the muscle gain would be minimal. An average male can only gain 1-2 per month with a good program and good nutrition. Women, veteran lifters, older lifters, calorie deficit will gain even less.
You probably did add a little muscle to your legs BUT you also lost body fat and increased water held within the muscles. This leads many people to the false assumption that new muscle can be built at a deficit past the very small amount the new lifters get.0 -
Believe what you want. It's basic science and math. Your experience is anecdotal and there have been many others on the site that have tried to convince others who are well versed in physiology, biology, chemistry, etc. that THEY are special enough to get it done.ok ok so for example...for an experiment we get identical twins. They're overweight men. both have spent years barely moving and eating loads. you then put both on the exact same diet, say 1200 cals. 1 stays inactive and the other trains 10th hours a week. 6 months later i would assume the twin who trains would have a lot more muscle mass than the inactive twin. but you are telling me that there is no way you can gain mass on a calorie deficit, and I've just stripped my fat to reveal the muscle. i think this is a case of agree to disagree as i know my own body, and i know i had barely any muscle and it wasnt just hidden by fat.
You'd be a millionaire if you could actually market your program to people trying to put on muscle who don't eat enough to support the calories needed to do it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Only noobs can0
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You didn't "build" that muscle.
The President!0 -
A more pertinent question is, can you lose fat when on a surplus. Nobody ever answers that one.0
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So many experts, so little time.0
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Believe what you want. It's basic science and math. Your experience is anecdotal and there have been many others on the site that have tried to convince others who are well versed in physiology, biology, chemistry, etc. that THEY are special enough to get it done.ok ok so for example...for an experiment we get identical twins. They're overweight men. both have spent years barely moving and eating loads. you then put both on the exact same diet, say 1200 cals. 1 stays inactive and the other trains 10th hours a week. 6 months later i would assume the twin who trains would have a lot more muscle mass than the inactive twin. but you are telling me that there is no way you can gain mass on a calorie deficit, and I've just stripped my fat to reveal the muscle. i think this is a case of agree to disagree as i know my own body, and i know i had barely any muscle and it wasnt just hidden by fat.
You'd be a millionaire if you could actually market your program to people trying to put on muscle who don't eat enough to support the calories needed to do it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
You should listen to this guy.. noob gains coupled with fat loss will show the muscle you already have while maintaining or IN SOME (NOOBY) CASES you will get gains in the beginning. However, you either have to cut fat at a deficit or build muscle at a surplus. Oftentimes, people can lose those last few bf% points and then reveal muscle they already had. Sometimes this is enough for people.0 -
From nps.gov:
The urea produced from fat metabolism (fatal at high levels) is broken down and the resulting nitrogen is used by the bear to build protein, which allows them to maintain muscle mass and organ tissues (Rogers 1981). Bears lose fat and may actually increase lean-body mass while hibernating due to this nitrogen recycling (Wickelgren 1988). Bears may loose 15-30 % of their body weight during hibernation (Rogers 1981).
Dont tell me you gonna dispute NPS.0
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