"You can't build muscle on a calorie deficit"

ninerbuff

I'm so confused. I'm 5'0.5", 94lbs and my scales tell me repeatedly (over a few months of no weight loss) that my BF% is 17.5. I have just started weight training mixed with with cardio and am eating about 1200 calories a day (but I rarely eat back exercise calories). I really have no muscle, I never have... I do eat a lot of protein though, 105g today, and 1200 calories. I do weight training and cardio about 5 times a week - will I not build muscle from this...?

Not really. Maybe if you were a genetic freak, but muscle hypertrophy requires not only protein, but enough calories to support it's use. Calorie deficit is catabolic while calorie surplus is anabolic. To build muscle, is being anabolic.

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leesyc81

ok ok so for example...for an experiment we get identical twins. They're overweight men. both have spent years barely moving and eating loads. you then put both on the exact same diet, say 1200 cals. 1 stays inactive and the other trains 10th hours a week. 6 months later i would assume the twin who trains would have a lot more muscle mass than the inactive twin. but you are telling me that there is no way you can gain mass on a calorie deficit, and I've just stripped my fat to reveal the muscle. i think this is a case of agree to disagree as i know my own body, and i know i had barely any muscle and it wasnt just hidden by fat.

mustgetmuscles1

ok ok so for example...for an experiment we get identical twins. They're overweight men. both have spent years barely moving and eating loads. you then put both on the exact same diet, say 1200 cals. 1 stays inactive and the other trains 10th hours a week. 6 months later i would assume the twin who trains would have a lot more muscle mass than the inactive twin. but you are telling me that there is no way you can gain mass on a calorie deficit, and I've just stripped my fat to reveal the muscle. i think this is a case of agree to disagree as i know my own body, and i know i had barely any muscle and it wasnt just hidden by fat.

The twin that had trained would have more muscle because:

1. He trained so he retained his current muscle. His brother would likely lose muscle with no training and such a severe deficit.

2. He is new to training. Most have said already, people new to training can gain a little new muscle.

3. He was overweight which also allows for some newbie muscle gains.

But even with all this the muscle gain would be minimal. An average male can only gain 1-2 per month with a good program and good nutrition. Women, veteran lifters, older lifters, calorie deficit will gain even less.

You probably did add a little muscle to your legs BUT you also lost body fat and increased water held within the muscles. This leads many people to the false assumption that new muscle can be built at a deficit past the very small amount the new lifters get.

ninerbuff

ok ok so for example...for an experiment we get identical twins. They're overweight men. both have spent years barely moving and eating loads. you then put both on the exact same diet, say 1200 cals. 1 stays inactive and the other trains 10th hours a week. 6 months later i would assume the twin who trains would have a lot more muscle mass than the inactive twin. but you are telling me that there is no way you can gain mass on a calorie deficit, and I've just stripped my fat to reveal the muscle. i think this is a case of agree to disagree as i know my own body, and i know i had barely any muscle and it wasnt just hidden by fat.

Believe what you want. It's basic science and math. Your experience is anecdotal and there have been many others on the site that have tried to convince others who are well versed in physiology, biology, chemistry, etc. that THEY are special enough to get it done.
You'd be a millionaire if you could actually market your program to people trying to put on muscle who don't eat enough to support the calories needed to do it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Joehenny

Only noobs can

NormInv

You didn't "build" that muscle.

The President!

NormInv

A more pertinent question is, can you lose fat when on a surplus. Nobody ever answers that one.

NormInv

So many experts, so little time.

gfroniewski

ok ok so for example...for an experiment we get identical twins. They're overweight men. both have spent years barely moving and eating loads. you then put both on the exact same diet, say 1200 cals. 1 stays inactive and the other trains 10th hours a week. 6 months later i would assume the twin who trains would have a lot more muscle mass than the inactive twin. but you are telling me that there is no way you can gain mass on a calorie deficit, and I've just stripped my fat to reveal the muscle. i think this is a case of agree to disagree as i know my own body, and i know i had barely any muscle and it wasnt just hidden by fat.

Believe what you want. It's basic science and math. Your experience is anecdotal and there have been many others on the site that have tried to convince others who are well versed in physiology, biology, chemistry, etc. that THEY are special enough to get it done.
You'd be a millionaire if you could actually market your program to people trying to put on muscle who don't eat enough to support the calories needed to do it.

A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

You should listen to this guy.. noob gains coupled with fat loss will show the muscle you already have while maintaining or IN SOME (NOOBY) CASES you will get gains in the beginning. However, you either have to cut fat at a deficit or build muscle at a surplus. Oftentimes, people can lose those last few bf% points and then reveal muscle they already had. Sometimes this is enough for people.

NormInv

From nps.gov:

The urea produced from fat metabolism (fatal at high levels) is broken down and the resulting nitrogen is used by the bear to build protein, which allows them to maintain muscle mass and organ tissues (Rogers 1981). Bears lose fat and may actually increase lean-body mass while hibernating due to this nitrogen recycling (Wickelgren 1988). Bears may loose 15-30 % of their body weight during hibernation (Rogers 1981).

Dont tell me you gonna dispute NPS.

SassyCalyGirl

you CAN increase lean mass while on a deficit-by losing fat. Building (what you consider "bulking" not possible) the reason why your muscles are more noticeable is that the fat is gone-therefor the muscle is more defined.

hopefully that makes sense to u

ironanimal

From nps.gov:

The urea produced from fat metabolism (fatal at high levels) is broken down and the resulting nitrogen is used by the bear to build protein, which allows them to maintain muscle mass and organ tissues (Rogers 1981). Bears lose fat and may actually increase lean-body mass while hibernating due to this nitrogen recycling (Wickelgren 1988). Bears may loose 15-30 % of their body weight during hibernation (Rogers 1981).

Dont tell me you gonna dispute NPS.

rawr ima bear

NormInv

From nps.gov:

The urea produced from fat metabolism (fatal at high levels) is broken down and the resulting nitrogen is used by the bear to build protein, which allows them to maintain muscle mass and organ tissues (Rogers 1981). Bears lose fat and may actually increase lean-body mass while hibernating due to this nitrogen recycling (Wickelgren 1988). Bears may loose 15-30 % of their body weight during hibernation (Rogers 1981).

Dont tell me you gonna dispute NPS.

rawr ima bear

right!?! just look at nature for examples. bears hibernate, then go out and eat a face. nature is telling us something.

crista_b

you CAN increase lean mass while on a deficit-by losing fat. Building (what you consider "bulking" not possible) the reason why your muscles are more noticeable is that the fat is gone-therefor the muscle is more defined.

hopefully that makes sense to u

Yep. Most people confuse LBM increases with muscle gains.

Also, this thread is now repeating itself because this debate has been beaten to death in here already.

ironanimal

From nps.gov:

The urea produced from fat metabolism (fatal at high levels) is broken down and the resulting nitrogen is used by the bear to build protein, which allows them to maintain muscle mass and organ tissues (Rogers 1981). Bears lose fat and may actually increase lean-body mass while hibernating due to this nitrogen recycling (Wickelgren 1988). Bears may loose 15-30 % of their body weight during hibernation (Rogers 1981).

Dont tell me you gonna dispute NPS.

rawr ima bear

right!?! just look at nature for examples. bears hibernate, then go out and eat a face. nature is telling us something.

And gorillas get swole as fuuuark without doing anything at all!

EricMurano

Anecdotal: I've been on a calorie deficit and I've put on muscle.

But I'm probably an alien.

crista_b

From nps.gov:

The urea produced from fat metabolism (fatal at high levels) is broken down and the resulting nitrogen is used by the bear to build protein, which allows them to maintain muscle mass and organ tissues (Rogers 1981). Bears lose fat and may actually increase lean-body mass while hibernating due to this nitrogen recycling (Wickelgren 1988). Bears may loose 15-30 % of their body weight during hibernation (Rogers 1981).

Dont tell me you gonna dispute NPS.

rawr ima bear

right!?! just look at nature for examples. bears hibernate, then go out and eat a face. nature is telling us something.

And gorillas get swole as fuuuark without doing anything at all!

And they're herbivores... where do they get their protein?!

NormInv

Im really curious about the definitions of deficit and surplus too. I think your body adapts to the new reality eventually and what was once a deficit is now normal. I think.

Anyway, how do you explain a bigger bicep when on a deficit.

True measure is to do a BF% and then weigh yourself and see if you have lower BF% then time 0, but weigh more. Then you gained.

But short of that, if you take a tape measure and your bicep is bigger than before while you been eating at a deficit, does that mean aliens exist?

kimosabe1

If u want a diet re-start, go back down to 1200 abut after a plateau when u start again adding calories slowly. I did this and am slowly going up 100 per week until u hit 2000 calories, then go back down to 1200. That is my diet re-start program and I am 5'5 and 150 pounds.

Cp731

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rawr ima bear

right!?! just look at nature for examples. bears hibernate, then go out and eat a face. nature is telling us something.

haha. This is whats wrong w/me?

kimosabe1

I'm 145, sorry.....

NormInv

.

rawr ima bear

right!?! just look at nature for examples. bears hibernate, then go out and eat a face. nature is telling us something.

haha. This is whats wrong w/me?

No hon, that is not whats wrong with you.

Cp731

.

rawr ima bear

right!?! just look at nature for examples. bears hibernate, then go out and eat a face. nature is telling us something.

haha. This is whats wrong w/me?

No hon, that is not whats wrong with you.

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

Here are my questions pertaining to this.....

1. How long is the window where "newb gains" applies?

2. What are the parameters around an "obese" individual? Are we talking about a person at 30+% BF, 40+% BF, etc.

If point 1 and and point 2 are in alignment, generally what would a person see in terms of results?

ironanimal

Here are my questions pertaining to this.....

1. How long is the window where "newb gains" applies?

2. What are the parameters around an "obese" individual? Are we talking about a person at 30+% BF, 40+% BF, etc.

If point 1 and and point 2 are in alignment, generally what would a person see in terms of results?

Well, in my experience, as I was an obese newbie, and probably at ~35% when I started, I gained a little size in my biceps and traps, but that was it. Probably saw the change over a period of 3-4 months. Since then I've only gained a little muscle here and there when I've been intentionally eating just above maintenance.

crista_b

Here are my questions pertaining to this.....

1. How long is the window where "newb gains" applies?

2. What are the parameters around an "obese" individual? Are we talking about a person at 30+% BF, 40+% BF, etc.

If point 1 and and point 2 are in alignment, generally what would a person see in terms of results?

I'm no expert and won't claim to be, but...

1. It can depend on the individual, but the general consensus is about 5-8 months. (That's usually at a small deficit though. Larger deficits will lead to shorter lengths of newbie gain time.)

2. Obese would be 32%+ bf for a woman and 25%+ for a man.


Not sure how to answer the question if they're aligned. I'm pretty sure that will depend greatly on the individual.

NormInv

.

rawr ima bear

right!?! just look at nature for examples. bears hibernate, then go out and eat a face. nature is telling us something.

haha. This is whats wrong w/me?

No hon, that is not whats wrong with you.

cavia

From nps.gov:

The urea produced from fat metabolism (fatal at high levels) is broken down and the resulting nitrogen is used by the bear to build protein, which allows them to maintain muscle mass and organ tissues (Rogers 1981). Bears lose fat and may actually increase lean-body mass while hibernating due to this nitrogen recycling (Wickelgren 1988). Bears may loose 15-30 % of their body weight during hibernation (Rogers 1981).

Dont tell me you gonna dispute NPS.

rawr ima bear

right!?! just look at nature for examples. bears hibernate, then go out and eat a face. nature is telling us something.

Bears are really just hangry?

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

Here are my questions pertaining to this.....

1. How long is the window where "newb gains" applies?

2. What are the parameters around an "obese" individual? Are we talking about a person at 30+% BF, 40+% BF, etc.

If point 1 and and point 2 are in alignment, generally what would a person see in terms of results?

I'm no expert and won't claim to be, but...

1. It can depend on the individual, but the general consensus is about 5-8 months. (That's usually at a small deficit though. Larger deficits will lead to shorter lengths of newbie gain time.)

2. Obese would be 32%+ bf for a woman and 25%+ for a man.


Not sure how to answer the question if they're aligned. I'm pretty sure that will depend greatly on the individual.

Thanks! by alignment I basically meant if an individual falls into both categories.....I just used a word that really didn't make sense :laugh: my bad!!!

Well, in my experience, as I was an obese newbie, and probably at ~35% when I started, I gained a little size in my biceps and traps, but that was it. Probably saw the change over a period of 3-4 months. Since then I've only gained a little muscle here and there when I've been intentionally eating just above maintenance.

Thank you for sharing this

crista_b

Here are my questions pertaining to this.....

1. How long is the window where "newb gains" applies?

2. What are the parameters around an "obese" individual? Are we talking about a person at 30+% BF, 40+% BF, etc.

If point 1 and and point 2 are in alignment, generally what would a person see in terms of results?

I'm no expert and won't claim to be, but...

1. It can depend on the individual, but the general consensus is about 5-8 months. (That's usually at a small deficit though. Larger deficits will lead to shorter lengths of newbie gain time.)

2. Obese would be 32%+ bf for a woman and 25%+ for a man.


Not sure how to answer the question if they're aligned. I'm pretty sure that will depend greatly on the individual.

Thanks! by alignment I basically meant if an individual falls into both categories.....I just used a word that really didn't make sense :laugh: my bad!!!

That's what I figured. I think it would depend on how hard the person pushes, their protein intake, the amount of caloric deficit, and what their bf% is. Hard to estimate.