heavy lifting and over training
Replies
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I reckon with enough smarts (and time) you could actually do a 4 day on program without burnout, and without gear - but for most people the amount of time required would be prohibitive.
But if you applied most of the tricks of training I reckon it could be done. Things like taking advantage of insulin spiking, splitting your routine, deloading using power weeks, plyo, and even things like negative reps...
Maybe I should look into it and guinea pig myself to document it. Lol!
I work out 5 days a week, 3 high volume and 2 power. My 'gear' consists of a crap ton of protein and creatine. I also do martial arts on top of that. If I were eating more and not on a cut, I'd do more.0 -
look at the olympic lifters who squat every single day
I squat 5 times a week does that count?
Be careful, you're going to overtrain your legs and they will literally fall off. Like mid-squat *pop*...off0 -
Look at Wendler's 5/3/1. There is specific programming for 4 days a week. It basically comes down to doing 1 major lift on each day: Squat, Deadlift, Bench, OHP, and then assistance work. Deload weeks are built in to the program. It's a great program for once you've reached "intermediate" level.
Right this is one of the intermmediate routines I mentioned (and what i plan on going to, in particular the Boring But Big template) after linear gains from a beginner routine have been exhausted.
There is now a 5/3/1 for beginners, but I think this program may just be for powerlifter enthusiasts, someone could certainly benefit from the program regardless.
I havent see that but in general the progression of the program i have seen is adding weight monthly as opposed to every workout like a beginner routine or weekly like a madcows type intermediate routine
Also several of the previous posts are talking about doing the sorts of things I mentioned a beginner usually can't do, and are better left for someone with a bit of experience under their belt. Not that they can't be done by anyone at all ever.0 -
look at the olympic lifters who squat every single day
I squat 5 times a week does that count?
Be careful, you're going to overtrain your legs and they will literally fall off. Like mid-squat *pop*...off
If you've ever squatted 5 times a week for several weeks in a row you would understand this is a legitimate fear right now.0 -
Why do you assume he's a beginner? Because he's asking for thoughts on a particular program? I don't know him that well but I don't consider him to be a beginner. He's asking what we think of a program, not how to squat safely.Also several of the previous posts are talking about doing the sorts of things I mentioned a beginner usually can't do, and are better left for someone with a bit of experience under their belt. Not that they can't be done by anyone at all ever.
I have actually (it sucked like hell, props to you for sacking up). I've been sarcastic about this, but my point is that if you have decent enough self awareness, something like that is doable provided you're smart about it. Yes it sucks, yes it hurts like hell, but as long as you're careful and pay attention to your body, you CAN do it. That's really all I'm saying. I hate it when people jump to overtraining immediately, I think it's a cop out. Should you be careful not to overtrain? Hell yes. I hate spontaneously vomitting and passing out at work as much as the next guy. Should you instantly say doing more than 6 repetitions of an exercise once a year definitely means the person is overtraining? Not so much.If you've ever squatted 5 times a week for several weeks in a row you would understand this is a legitimate fear right now.0 -
Yes, initially I asked about the efficiency of my routine. And you can take that literally as you want, and split hairs as finely as you want.
But let's take a step back and look at the big picture here...
Say I'm losing 10% of my potential gains due to over training.
Say the average person would be really lucky to put on 1lb of lean muscle per month (reasonable number from what I've read)
Say I do bulk/cut cycles for 6 months - late fall through the winter and into early spring (not at all uncommon)
6 months of bulk/cut means, for the sake of simplicity, 3 months of bulking.
3 months of bulking means, optimally, 3lbs of lean muscle
My over training reduces that to 2.7lbs of lean muscle.
That's negligible to me. Sure, that can make a big difference to someone who is competing, but not to me. I'd happily trade a quarter of a pound over the course of my winter lifting for a routine I feel good doing and enjoy on a day to day basis.
Am I missing something here? Or are we really getting all worked up over .25lbs under optimal conditions?0 -
bump0
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Yes, initially I asked about the efficiency of my routine. And you can take that literally as you want, and split hairs as finely as you want.
But let's take a step back and look at the big picture here...
Say I'm losing 10% of my potential gains due to over training.
Say the average person would be really lucky to put on 1lb of lean muscle per month (reasonable number from what I've read)
Say I do bulk/cut cycles for 6 months - late fall through the winter and into early spring (not at all uncommon)
6 months of bulk/cut means, for the sake of simplicity, 3 months of bulking.
3 months of bulking means, optimally, 3lbs of lean muscle
My over training reduces that to 2.7lbs of lean muscle.
That's negligible to me. Sure, that can make a big difference to someone who is competing, but not to me. I'd happily trade a quarter of a pound over the course of my winter lifting for a routine I feel good doing and enjoy on a day to day basis.
Am I missing something here? Or are we really getting all worked up over .25lbs under optimal conditions?
I'd bulk for six, then cut for a few. and repeat.
only eating at a caloric surplus for 12 weeks or so makes it hard to pack on any noticeable gains.
I had my best gains from 5/3/1, and from 5x5.
If you're doing full-body workouts, I think 3x a week is the most efficient, so you get 48 hours between workouts.
If doing 5/3/1 and having essentially one main lift per day to build, it's okay if they aren't always spaced out, because muscles still get recovery time. I wouldn't really worry too much about "overtraining" in the sense of reducing some hypertrophy, only CNS overtraining.
Eat more and you'll put on the muscle, IMO.0 -
Yes, initially I asked about the efficiency of my routine. And you can take that literally as you want, and split hairs as finely as you want.
But let's take a step back and look at the big picture here...
Say I'm losing 10% of my potential gains due to over training.
Say the average person would be really lucky to put on 1lb of lean muscle per month (reasonable number from what I've read)
Say I do bulk/cut cycles for 6 months - late fall through the winter and into early spring (not at all uncommon)
6 months of bulk/cut means, for the sake of simplicity, 3 months of bulking.
3 months of bulking means, optimally, 3lbs of lean muscle
My over training reduces that to 2.7lbs of lean muscle.
That's negligible to me. Sure, that can make a big difference to someone who is competing, but not to me. I'd happily trade a quarter of a pound over the course of my winter lifting for a routine I feel good doing and enjoy on a day to day basis.
Am I missing something here? Or are we really getting all worked up over .25lbs under optimal conditions?
The thing is... It's not 10% if during lifts with a depleted CNS you end up lifting with bad form that you can't control, and you tear a muscle. Then it's going to be a fair bit more waiting for your injury to heal.
I can see the warnings about obviously over training - and they're valid.
The key thing here is that if you're smart about _what_ you do and how much intensity you're running at, as opposed to how much you do it, you can workout every day without issues - which is what I was getting at
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The thing is... It's not 10% if during lifts with a depleted CNS you end up lifting with bad form that you can't control, and you tear a muscle. Then it's going to be a fair bit more waiting for your injury to heal.
True, but I'm smart enough and done enough lifting to know how to lift and when my form is slipping. I'm also smart enough to back off the weight a bit, or stop the lift all together, when that's the case. This is largely why I don't do certain lifts (like power cleans) - because I know my technique isn't good the risk is too high.
So lets take the risk of injury out of this conversation.The key thing here is that if you're smart about _what_ you do and how much intensity you're running at, as opposed to how much you do it, you can workout every day without issues - which is what I was getting at
Which, if I'm understanding your correctly, is the one thing no one has mentioned to this point. Be smart, listen to your body and you'll be fine.
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Yes, initially I asked about the efficiency of my routine. And you can take that literally as you want, and split hairs as finely as you want.
But let's take a step back and look at the big picture here...
Say I'm losing 10% of my potential gains due to over training.
Say the average person would be really lucky to put on 1lb of lean muscle per month (reasonable number from what I've read)
Say I do bulk/cut cycles for 6 months - late fall through the winter and into early spring (not at all uncommon)
6 months of bulk/cut means, for the sake of simplicity, 3 months of bulking.
3 months of bulking means, optimally, 3lbs of lean muscle
My over training reduces that to 2.7lbs of lean muscle.
That's negligible to me. Sure, that can make a big difference to someone who is competing, but not to me. I'd happily trade a quarter of a pound over the course of my winter lifting for a routine I feel good doing and enjoy on a day to day basis.
Am I missing something here? Or are we really getting all worked up over .25lbs under optimal conditions?
The thing is... It's not 10% if during lifts with a depleted CNS you end up lifting with bad form that you can't control, and you tear a muscle. Then it's going to be a fair bit more waiting for your injury to heal.
I can see the warnings about obviously over training - and they're valid.
The key thing here is that if you're smart about _what_ you do and how much intensity you're running at, as opposed to how much you do it, you can workout every day without issues - which is what I was getting at
Do you have any sources to backup the CNS depletion bit? I've looked before and came up with ziltch.0 -
Yes, initially I asked about the efficiency of my routine. And you can take that literally as you want, and split hairs as finely as you want.
But let's take a step back and look at the big picture here...
Say I'm losing 10% of my potential gains due to over training.
Say the average person would be really lucky to put on 1lb of lean muscle per month (reasonable number from what I've read)
Say I do bulk/cut cycles for 6 months - late fall through the winter and into early spring (not at all uncommon)
6 months of bulk/cut means, for the sake of simplicity, 3 months of bulking.
3 months of bulking means, optimally, 3lbs of lean muscle
My over training reduces that to 2.7lbs of lean muscle.
That's negligible to me. Sure, that can make a big difference to someone who is competing, but not to me. I'd happily trade a quarter of a pound over the course of my winter lifting for a routine I feel good doing and enjoy on a day to day basis.
Am I missing something here? Or are we really getting all worked up over .25lbs under optimal conditions?
Not based on research or studies, but based on my understanding I think the 10% reduction would be to the amount you lift (progression loss), I think it will have a larger impact on muscle growth as they typically grow during rest, if you work them the next day they may not be repaired, so when you work them again you then only have 1 day off prior to working again, by the time the end of the week 4 days working the same muscle, it may need more than the weekend to rebuild to where they were prior to the beginning of the week.
If they didn't get back to where they were, then you lift the next Monday, you would just do more and more damage and will not reap the growth or strength gains that you would have if the muscles were fully repaired.0 -
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OMG you did more than 3 exercises? How do you live!!!?!?!?!?!?
Do you enjoy it?
Are you making gains?
There's merit to doing some grinding, and plenty of people have made tremendous gains with that paradigm (look at the olympic lifters who squat every single day, or the training programs from guys who set world records in the 70s that still stand today. Look at some of the better conditioning and strength programs for wrestling, football, boxing, etc in high schools and colleges. Now compare that with your average joe who lifts 5x5 on 2 moves once every six and half freaking months).
I'm not saying going balls out is right for everybody, and for people who it is beneficial for won't get the same benefit indefinitely, but if you want to crank it out and are self-aware enough to know when you've had enough, why not?
You may not NEED to put as much work in to get strong or defined, but I don't think you can write-off the benefits of that kind of training style so quickly.
Ease back of the throttle there, Pocahontas. Not only did you just roll off a list of people that participate in a sport that is well documented to be rife with steroids, you are also talking about specialists. The OP has a photo of what I assume is him running as his avatar. Was running, or any cardio part of the Olympic lifters programs? Did they have any interests outside of their chosen competition?
Since MFP F&E is more a general fitness type thread, I think most of us are assuming that he's interested in a general bigger, stronger, faster sort of thing. He hasn't indicated so far that he's looking to become a roided out competition level powerlifter. If he does, we'll change our advice. I'll bow out of the conversation entirely because I have no first hand knowledge. But if he's a guy with a day job and family concerns that wants to spend a reasonable amount of time getting bigger and stronger and better looking with his shirt off, I've got some time on that and might have one or two ideas to help.
And I don't think anybody is really saying he should squeeze down to 3 exercises. We aren't so much much throwing SL or SS in his face as we're saying full body on back to back days 2x a week is usually not a good idea for someone not on the juice.0 -
Yes, initially I asked about the efficiency of my routine. And you can take that literally as you want, and split hairs as finely as you want.
But let's take a step back and look at the big picture here...
Say I'm losing 10% of my potential gains due to over training.
Say the average person would be really lucky to put on 1lb of lean muscle per month (reasonable number from what I've read)
Say I do bulk/cut cycles for 6 months - late fall through the winter and into early spring (not at all uncommon)
6 months of bulk/cut means, for the sake of simplicity, 3 months of bulking.
3 months of bulking means, optimally, 3lbs of lean muscle
My over training reduces that to 2.7lbs of lean muscle.
That's negligible to me. Sure, that can make a big difference to someone who is competing, but not to me. I'd happily trade a quarter of a pound over the course of my winter lifting for a routine I feel good doing and enjoy on a day to day basis.
Am I missing something here? Or are we really getting all worked up over .25lbs under optimal conditions?
Not based on research or studies, but based on my understanding I think the 10% reduction would be to the amount you lift (progression loss), I think it will have a larger impact on muscle growth as they typically grow during rest, if you work them the next day they may not be repaired, so when you work them again you then only have 1 day off prior to working again, by the time the end of the week 4 days working the same muscle, it may need more than the weekend to rebuild to where they were prior to the beginning of the week.
If they didn't get back to where they were, then you lift the next Monday, you would just do more and more damage and will not reap the growth or strength gains that you would have if the muscles were fully repaired.
Is it safe then to use my progression (or lack there of) as a guage? i.e. As long as I'm seeing reasonable progress, keep going (kind of the if it ain't broke don't fix it approach), and if I'm not progressing to change things up?0 -
Yes, initially I asked about the efficiency of my routine. And you can take that literally as you want, and split hairs as finely as you want.
But let's take a step back and look at the big picture here...
Say I'm losing 10% of my potential gains due to over training.
Say the average person would be really lucky to put on 1lb of lean muscle per month (reasonable number from what I've read)
Say I do bulk/cut cycles for 6 months - late fall through the winter and into early spring (not at all uncommon)
6 months of bulk/cut means, for the sake of simplicity, 3 months of bulking.
3 months of bulking means, optimally, 3lbs of lean muscle
My over training reduces that to 2.7lbs of lean muscle.
That's negligible to me. Sure, that can make a big difference to someone who is competing, but not to me. I'd happily trade a quarter of a pound over the course of my winter lifting for a routine I feel good doing and enjoy on a day to day basis.
Am I missing something here? Or are we really getting all worked up over .25lbs under optimal conditions?
Not based on research or studies, but based on my understanding I think the 10% reduction would be to the amount you lift (progression loss), I think it will have a larger impact on muscle growth as they typically grow during rest, if you work them the next day they may not be repaired, so when you work them again you then only have 1 day off prior to working again, by the time the end of the week 4 days working the same muscle, it may need more than the weekend to rebuild to where they were prior to the beginning of the week.
If they didn't get back to where they were, then you lift the next Monday, you would just do more and more damage and will not reap the growth or strength gains that you would have if the muscles were fully repaired.
Is it safe then to use my progression (or lack there of) as a guage? i.e. As long as I'm seeing reasonable progress, keep going (kind of the if it ain't broke don't fix it approach), and if I'm not progressing to change things up?
This way you will know if it is working or not.
That doesn't mean it is the most optimal routine, as progression may, not necessary though, be faster with another program and a plateau later, but you wouldn't know either way.0 -
Yes, initially I asked about the efficiency of my routine. And you can take that literally as you want, and split hairs as finely as you want.
But let's take a step back and look at the big picture here...
Say I'm losing 10% of my potential gains due to over training.
Say the average person would be really lucky to put on 1lb of lean muscle per month (reasonable number from what I've read)
Say I do bulk/cut cycles for 6 months - late fall through the winter and into early spring (not at all uncommon)
6 months of bulk/cut means, for the sake of simplicity, 3 months of bulking.
3 months of bulking means, optimally, 3lbs of lean muscle
My over training reduces that to 2.7lbs of lean muscle.
That's negligible to me. Sure, that can make a big difference to someone who is competing, but not to me. I'd happily trade a quarter of a pound over the course of my winter lifting for a routine I feel good doing and enjoy on a day to day basis.
Am I missing something here? Or are we really getting all worked up over .25lbs under optimal conditions?
Your math might be correct, but your progression is too linear. Overtraining doesn't just lead to a reduction in gains. At some point it leads to Full Stop. Either you're too tired to get to the gym at all, or you end up hurting something and have to stand down for a while. 2 -4 weeks if you're lucky, a few months if you're not so lucky.0 -
Yes, initially I asked about the efficiency of my routine. And you can take that literally as you want, and split hairs as finely as you want.
But let's take a step back and look at the big picture here...
Say I'm losing 10% of my potential gains due to over training.
Say the average person would be really lucky to put on 1lb of lean muscle per month (reasonable number from what I've read)
Say I do bulk/cut cycles for 6 months - late fall through the winter and into early spring (not at all uncommon)
6 months of bulk/cut means, for the sake of simplicity, 3 months of bulking.
3 months of bulking means, optimally, 3lbs of lean muscle
My over training reduces that to 2.7lbs of lean muscle.
That's negligible to me. Sure, that can make a big difference to someone who is competing, but not to me. I'd happily trade a quarter of a pound over the course of my winter lifting for a routine I feel good doing and enjoy on a day to day basis.
Am I missing something here? Or are we really getting all worked up over .25lbs under optimal conditions?
Your math might be correct, but your progression is too linear. Overtraining doesn't just lead to a reduction in gains. At some point it leads to Full Stop. Either you're too tired to get to the gym at all, or you end up hurting something and have to stand down for a while. 2 -4 weeks if you're lucky, a few months if you're not so lucky.
Full stop or negative.
And yes, I assume he is a beginner based both on the fact that he has made his own routine, has said he has lifted for a year but not intensely, asks the kinds of questions he does (no hate in there srs) I also look at other forums where people ask such questions and much much worse all day every day a hundred new threads a day. They are all beginners. Even I am a beginner.0 -
Yes, initially I asked about the efficiency of my routine. And you can take that literally as you want, and split hairs as finely as you want.
But let's take a step back and look at the big picture here...
Say I'm losing 10% of my potential gains due to over training.
Say the average person would be really lucky to put on 1lb of lean muscle per month (reasonable number from what I've read)
Say I do bulk/cut cycles for 6 months - late fall through the winter and into early spring (not at all uncommon)
6 months of bulk/cut means, for the sake of simplicity, 3 months of bulking.
3 months of bulking means, optimally, 3lbs of lean muscle
My over training reduces that to 2.7lbs of lean muscle.
That's negligible to me. Sure, that can make a big difference to someone who is competing, but not to me. I'd happily trade a quarter of a pound over the course of my winter lifting for a routine I feel good doing and enjoy on a day to day basis.
Am I missing something here? Or are we really getting all worked up over .25lbs under optimal conditions?
The thing is... It's not 10% if during lifts with a depleted CNS you end up lifting with bad form that you can't control, and you tear a muscle. Then it's going to be a fair bit more waiting for your injury to heal.
I can see the warnings about obviously over training - and they're valid.
The key thing here is that if you're smart about _what_ you do and how much intensity you're running at, as opposed to how much you do it, you can workout every day without issues - which is what I was getting at
Do you have any sources to backup the CNS depletion bit? I've looked before and came up with ziltch.
Just one example, but a lot of research kinda works around the same theory (which makes sense):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9000155
The research revolves around neurotransmitter depletion as the cause under heavy loads, which does make perfect sense.
Also the affect of ammonia build up is a contributory factor.0 -
bump0
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Got to step out and run some errands, but I want to say, IMO, this is a quality thread. Even the folks I'm disagreeing with, I'm really liking their information and counter points. Well argued stuff. A lot to consider in here. I wish more F&E threads would be like this.0
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I like a lot of what he has to say. The fact that you posted it carries some weight, but who is he? Creditable?0 -
Ease back of the throttle there, Pocahontas. Not only did you just roll off a list of people that participate in a sport that is well documented to be rife with steroids, you are also talking about specialists. The OP has a photo of what I assume is him running as his avatar. Was running, or any cardio part of the Olympic lifters programs? Did they have any interests outside of their chosen competition?
Since MFP F&E is more a general fitness type thread, I think most of us are assuming that he's interested in a general bigger, stronger, faster sort of thing. He hasn't indicated so far that he's looking to become a roided out competition level powerlifter. If he does, we'll change our advice. I'll bow out of the conversation entirely because I have no first hand knowledge. But if he's a guy with a day job and family concerns that wants to spend a reasonable amount of time getting bigger and stronger and better looking with his shirt off, I've got some time on that and might have one or two ideas to help.
And I don't think anybody is really saying he should squeeze down to 3 exercises. We aren't so much much throwing SL or SS in his face as we're saying full body on back to back days 2x a week is usually not a good idea for someone not on the juice.
A fair counter, but at both the high school and collegiate level you do have guys running the same drills that aren't on gear. A standard paradigm for collegiate atheletes (James Steel is the person who I heard talking about it directly) is to have their heaviest day being the day after game day. This is an ivy league school without all the pulls of scholarship money and such, and they have their heaviest lifting day immediately following what should have been an intense full body workout. UPenn has linemen that aren't juicing, and I guarantee you their clean, dead, press, and squat work is hitting all the same stuff they blasted in the game the day before. Is his workout one that I would personally do? No, I don't like it for myself and probably wouldn't get as much progress out of it. However, assuming he's able to monitor himself for safety, who are you to determine the program is "WAY TOO MUCH"?0 -
I like a lot of what he has to say. The fact that you posted it carries some weight, but who is he? Creditable?
Layne Norton, pro bodybuilder and has a PhD in Nutritional Sciences
http://www.biolayne.com/0 -
Just one example, but a lot of research kinda works around the same theory (which makes sense):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9000155
The research revolves around neurotransmitter depletion as the cause under heavy loads, which does make perfect sense.
Also the affect of ammonia build up is a contributory factor.
Yes, but isn't this a study on the more immediate effects, not the effects following a full night's sleep?0 -
Yes, initially I asked about the efficiency of my routine. And you can take that literally as you want, and split hairs as finely as you want.
But let's take a step back and look at the big picture here...
Say I'm losing 10% of my potential gains due to over training.
Say the average person would be really lucky to put on 1lb of lean muscle per month (reasonable number from what I've read)
Say I do bulk/cut cycles for 6 months - late fall through the winter and into early spring (not at all uncommon)
6 months of bulk/cut means, for the sake of simplicity, 3 months of bulking.
3 months of bulking means, optimally, 3lbs of lean muscle
My over training reduces that to 2.7lbs of lean muscle.
That's negligible to me. Sure, that can make a big difference to someone who is competing, but not to me. I'd happily trade a quarter of a pound over the course of my winter lifting for a routine I feel good doing and enjoy on a day to day basis.
Am I missing something here? Or are we really getting all worked up over .25lbs under optimal conditions?
Not based on research or studies, but based on my understanding I think the 10% reduction would be to the amount you lift (progression loss), I think it will have a larger impact on muscle growth as they typically grow during rest, if you work them the next day they may not be repaired, so when you work them again you then only have 1 day off prior to working again, by the time the end of the week 4 days working the same muscle, it may need more than the weekend to rebuild to where they were prior to the beginning of the week.
If they didn't get back to where they were, then you lift the next Monday, you would just do more and more damage and will not reap the growth or strength gains that you would have if the muscles were fully repaired.
Is it safe then to use my progression (or lack there of) as a guage? i.e. As long as I'm seeing reasonable progress, keep going (kind of the if it ain't broke don't fix it approach), and if I'm not progressing to change things up?
This way you will know if it is working or not.
That doesn't mean it is the most optimal routine, as progression may, not necessary though, be faster with another program and a plateau later, but you wouldn't know either way.
And that gets back to my initial question about efficiency. I guess the thing I'm having the hardest time with is how does anyone know what is/will be most efficient. You all have experience with your programs/routines, and that's great. Does that guarantee it's best for me, or even better than what I'm currently doing? I dunno. Seems really hard to say without knowing the ins and outs of everyone's program over the long term, not to mention their goals, training constraints, etc.
For example... I'm basically doing a 6 week bulk followed by a 6 week cut, then a 12 week bulk and a 12 week cut. Based on the relatively short cycles, does that change the conversation? I couldn't bulk for 5-6 months straight (for a few reasons that I won't get into here) even if it meant bigger gains, so I'm on shorter cycles.0 -
I like a lot of what he has to say. The fact that you posted it carries some weight, but who is he? Creditable?
Layne Norton, pro bodybuilder and has a PhD in Nutritional Sciences
http://www.biolayne.com/
Cool, thanks.0 -
Ease back of the throttle there, Pocahontas. Not only did you just roll off a list of people that participate in a sport that is well documented to be rife with steroids, you are also talking about specialists. The OP has a photo of what I assume is him running as his avatar. Was running, or any cardio part of the Olympic lifters programs? Did they have any interests outside of their chosen competition?
Since MFP F&E is more a general fitness type thread, I think most of us are assuming that he's interested in a general bigger, stronger, faster sort of thing. He hasn't indicated so far that he's looking to become a roided out competition level powerlifter. If he does, we'll change our advice. I'll bow out of the conversation entirely because I have no first hand knowledge. But if he's a guy with a day job and family concerns that wants to spend a reasonable amount of time getting bigger and stronger and better looking with his shirt off, I've got some time on that and might have one or two ideas to help.
And I don't think anybody is really saying he should squeeze down to 3 exercises. We aren't so much much throwing SL or SS in his face as we're saying full body on back to back days 2x a week is usually not a good idea for someone not on the juice.
A fair counter, but at both the high school and collegiate level you do have guys running the same drills that aren't on gear. A standard paradigm for collegiate atheletes (James Steel is the person who I heard talking about it directly) is to have their heaviest day being the day after game day. This is an ivy league school without all the pulls of scholarship money and such, and they have their heaviest lifting day immediately following what should have been an intense full body workout. UPenn has linemen that aren't juicing, and I guarantee you their clean, dead, press, and squat work is hitting all the same stuff they blasted in the game the day before. Is his workout one that I would personally do? No, I don't like it for myself and probably wouldn't get as much progress out of it. However, assuming he's able to monitor himself for safety, who are you to determine the program is "WAY TOO MUCH"?
You're talking about dudes with the highest hormone levels\best recovery ability of their lives though. Us older men can't recover at the same rate as people that young.0 -
Just one example, but a lot of research kinda works around the same theory (which makes sense):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9000155
The research revolves around neurotransmitter depletion as the cause under heavy loads, which does make perfect sense.
Also the affect of ammonia build up is a contributory factor.
Yes, but isn't this a study on the more immediate effects, not the effects following a full night's sleep?
That depends on whether your body can replenish 5-HT within 24 hours completely - not to mention obvious muscle fibre tear/repair into the bargain.
Obviously if you're training at a high intensity level, there is a possibility that 5-HT is not fully replenished (amongst other neurotransmitters) by the time you get to your next workout - at which point you deplete those levels even more, and it's eventually a downward spiral.
Studies however have been shown to prove that BCAA supplementation is important as it does improve recovery (which is a bit of a no-brainer). Tryptophan supplementation has also been researched as it is the precursor to 5-HT.
I do reckon that depletion does play a contributory effect when we're talking about pushing the envelope. If we're talking about general health and fitness? Not so much.
Nevertheless, I thought I would bring it up as a contributory factor when we're talking about overtraining, which it is.0 -
Since MFP F&E is more a general fitness type thread, I think most of us are assuming that he's interested in a general bigger, stronger, faster sort of thing. He hasn't indicated so far that he's looking to become a roided out competition level powerlifter. If he does, we'll change our advice. I'll bow out of the conversation entirely because I have no first hand knowledge. But if he's a guy with a day job and family concerns that wants to spend a reasonable amount of time getting bigger and stronger and better looking with his shirt off, I've got some time on that and might have one or two ideas to help.
Fair assumptions.
I'm an endurance athlete (triathlete) who is also a regular guy with a job, kids, etc. Strength to weight ratio is always a priority for me, but like everyone I want to look good too, so some shape/definition is certainly a goal as well.
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