Why do people get so provoked by vegans?
Replies
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I don't feel provoked by vegans, however I do get highly annoyed by ANYONE who preaches to me about their way as being the only path. This goes for diet (vegan, paleo, no carb, low carb) or religion and everything in between. People getting all preachy is just plain obnoxious and I have no patience for them online or in real life.
This.0 -
The issue here is that vegans usually are vegan because they feel there is an ethical issue with the treatment of animals, amoung other issues. Therefore, it's hard to just simply live and let live (or die, LOL). Being vegan is a statement about being vegan. It's not like someone who is just doing it for health benefits. There's way more to it than just health benefits.
Most people don't chose thier life path. i believe this firmly. Most people take what they have been taught, and go with it. So, they grow up eating hamburger, steak, chicken, and pork. They don't even think about it...at all. It's just food. Some people, when they get a little older, question everything in their life. Why do I eat steak? Why do I wear clothes with names on them? Why do I live in a standard configured house? They turn everything on it's head and ask questions. The answers sometimes are surprising. If you could step back and chose everything, would you chose what you are doing now? If you really put thought into each and every purchase and the long term ramifications of giving Nike, as an example, your money, is that a good choice, or would you rather give your money to a local shoe maker, and skip the swoosh?
I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.
So...meat eaters just suffer from herd mentality? Thoughtless? Living unexamined lives of doing what has always been done?
Seems just about every defense of Vegan attitude just ooozes the type of arrogance that others find so irritating.
I wonder if that's a coincidence?
I know that I think and read a lot about veganism. Some consumer decisions tie me in knots, e.g. synthetic shoes: animal free, but not biodegradable. This is not a complete win-win in the ethics department for me and I end up feeling conflicted. In other areas of my life, I am totally oblivious to the moral complexity of things--I might even say *blissfully* unaware since it's just easier.
So, do I think I'm the be-all, end-all ethically because I try to live a vegan life? No, not at all. But, in this one area, which I care a lot about, I think I probably spend a lot more time than most people reflecting on the impact consumer decisions have on animals. Please don't construe that as meaning I feel 'superior' because I really don't.0 -
Most people in my real life don't even know I'm a vegan. But, there are times it comes up and my mere existence seems to challenge some people, no matter how polite and accepting I try to be.
^^ I find this too.0 -
The issue here is that vegans usually are vegan because they feel there is an ethical issue with the treatment of animals, amoung other issues. Therefore, it's hard to just simply live and let live (or die, LOL). Being vegan is a statement about being vegan. It's not like someone who is just doing it for health benefits. There's way more to it than just health benefits.
Most people don't chose thier life path. i believe this firmly. Most people take what they have been taught, and go with it. So, they grow up eating hamburger, steak, chicken, and pork. They don't even think about it...at all. It's just food. Some people, when they get a little older, question everything in their life. Why do I eat steak? Why do I wear clothes with names on them? Why do I live in a standard configured house? They turn everything on it's head and ask questions. The answers sometimes are surprising. If you could step back and chose everything, would you chose what you are doing now? If you really put thought into each and every purchase and the long term ramifications of giving Nike, as an example, your money, is that a good choice, or would you rather give your money to a local shoe maker, and skip the swoosh?
I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.
So...meat eaters just suffer from herd mentality? Thoughtless? Living unexamined lives of doing what has always been done?
Seems just about every defense of Vegan attitude just ooozes the type of arrogance that others find so irritating.
I wonder if that's a coincidence?
I'm not a vegan, but I get what the person is saying. If anyone does anything that is different from the norm, they are likely to have put more thought into it than the majority of people who just do the norm - because people naturally go along with what is the norm. Including vegans, because there are way more norms in life than meat eating. It's not intrinsically wrong to follow the norm. And it doesn't mean that all meat-eaters haven't made a conscious decision to become a meat eater, but realistically, not all of them will have. Whereas all vegans will have made a conscious decision to become a vegan.
Anything that is significantly different from the norm requires making a decision. And anyone who's made such a decision is making a moral statement regardless of whether they voice it - the decision itself says 'I've decided to do this because I think it's the right thing to do'. Which does kind of imply that they think that not doing it is not the right thing to do. But at the end of the day, a person has to live by their own values - it would be daft to abstain from living by your values for fear of offending someone who doesn't share them.0 -
I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.0 -
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I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.
^^
Gets it.
"I'm right and if you don't agree, you must not be thinking (properly, enough, at all...)"0 -
Good read while I eat my steak. Thanks!
Why even post that on this thread? You're just being a troll.0 -
OP Q: Why do people get so provoked by vegans?
I'm not sure but I see tons of juvenile postings by both vegans and non-vegans on this thread. If you have no interest in veganism, why bother posting here unless you enjoy trolling.
As to the OP's Q, my guess is that the general public is seldomly provoked by a vegan's "dietary" lifestyle in pursuit of greater health but rather some (not all) having very stringent "ethical" viewpoints regarding animal products and animal treatment. It's those extreme outliers, like wacky PETA sensationalists, that turn off the general public and give the collective group a negative image.
I've been an omnivore my entire life but have been leaning more towards a vegetarian diet these days as I continually strive to educate myself in attaining greater health and wanting to live as long as possible with my family. Despite the terrific benefits of muscle gain and indirect fat loss, I'm learning there are also drawbacks of having high levels of IGF-1 from consuming lots of protein, particularly animal proteins. The ever increasing amount of studies as to the detrimental effects of red meat have made me much more conscious of what I typically eat. But I don't know if I can completely give up the occassional burger and steak yet.
In any case, I have a high degree of respect and admiration for vegans. With further education, I'm finding that it doesn't necessarily have to be a radical choice (it's quite possibly the healthiest choice) but there are the few argumentative absolutists who unfortunately promote veganism as an extreme lifestyle.0 -
I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.
I am not trying to be facetious, but I would like to hear how that contemplative, self-reflective alternate conclusion might sound like. I have an easy time seeing my own conclusion, but I have a difficult time seeing an opposite conclusion about meat-eating which factors in animal welfare.0 -
The issue here is that vegans usually are vegan because they feel there is an ethical issue with the treatment of animals, amoung other issues. Therefore, it's hard to just simply live and let live (or die, LOL). Being vegan is a statement about being vegan. It's not like someone who is just doing it for health benefits. There's way more to it than just health benefits.
This!0 -
I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.
I am not trying to be facetious, but I would like to hear how that contemplative, self-reflective alternate conclusion might sound like. I have an easy time seeing my own conclusion, but I have a difficult time seeing an opposite conclusion about meat-eating which factors in animal welfare.
Because the welfare of my food is, necessarily, secondary (at best) to my own.
That's the fundamental difference. Where you see yourself in the scheme of things versus where I see myself.0 -
The issue here is that vegans usually are vegan because they feel there is an ethical issue with the treatment of animals, amoung other issues. Therefore, it's hard to just simply live and let live (or die, LOL). Being vegan is a statement about being vegan. It's not like someone who is just doing it for health benefits. There's way more to it than just health benefits.
Most people don't chose thier life path. i believe this firmly. Most people take what they have been taught, and go with it. So, they grow up eating hamburger, steak, chicken, and pork. They don't even think about it...at all. It's just food. Some people, when they get a little older, question everything in their life. Why do I eat steak? Why do I wear clothes with names on them? Why do I live in a standard configured house? They turn everything on it's head and ask questions. The answers sometimes are surprising. If you could step back and chose everything, would you chose what you are doing now? If you really put thought into each and every purchase and the long term ramifications of giving Nike, as an example, your money, is that a good choice, or would you rather give your money to a local shoe maker, and skip the swoosh?
I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.
I like your response, even if I don't agree with it.
I happen to believe a lot more people than you think actually do question a lot of things about how they were raised. It's either that or I've met a whole lot of that one percent during the course of my life.
Once we hit adulthood, we have the freedom and the right to step back and ask the questions.
Some people choose not to do that. That's their right.
I went the other route. I've questioned a great deal of things in my upbringing my life and in the world in general. I still do, and I suspect I always will because as time goes on we learn more and more about, well, everything.
In the same way that I shouldn't think vegans, and any person who's made choices that differ from my own, are uninformed nutjobs, I would appreciate it if they didn't think that about me.
Unless you know me, and even then it would be debatable unless actually discussed, don't presume to know how or why I choose to live my life the way I do. And this includes why I eat the things that I do.0 -
As with many other replies, I am not provoked by vegans, I am provoked by anyone who tries to provoke me. And at university, there were quite a few vegans/vegetarians who did lecture their peers about this. What probably annoyed me the most was the assumption that I was completely unaware of the arguments posed in the veganism/veggie debate. The 'oh you couldn't know about this', especailly by ones who wear leather and eat sweets with gelatin, which is typically 99% bones, pig skin and cow skin. I know a lot of veggies who don't lecture, do it for health/religious etc reasons and I eat meals without meat from time to time (especially when tesco switches supplier and all the chicken stinks for some reason).
However it is the deliberately provocative nature of many vegans that irks me, (as can be with advocates of other contentious issues). Being a vegan doesn't make you a better person, in the grand scheme of things it tends to be their own ego they are soothing. And in many cases (again not the majority), they are a vegan because they have absolutely nothing else going for them and need something to make themselves seem interesting/intelligent, like the office worker who always wears a silly tie.
Again, I cannot stress enough how there are many vegans that this does not apply to, if you are, more power to you, but when you feel the need to enlighten me about it, don't. Being a vegan doesn't make you better nor more intelligant then I am (or more interesting). There are plenty of other ways you can be more intelligent/better/interesting then I am, it wouldnt actually be that hard.
Vegans don't wear leather (or wool or silk) and they don't eat sweets containing animal products.
No-one said being vegan makes them a better person than a meat eater.
"And in many cases (again not the majority), they are a vegan because they have absolutely nothing else going for them and need something to make themselves seem interesting/intelligent, like the office worker who always wears a silly tie."
This forum has a policy against stereotyping against groups of people. Your statement is belittling.0 -
I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.
I am not trying to be facetious, but I would like to hear how that contemplative, self-reflective alternate conclusion might sound like. I have an easy time seeing my own conclusion, but I have a difficult time seeing an opposite conclusion about meat-eating which factors in animal welfare.
Because the welfare of my food is, necessarily, secondary (at best) to my own.
That's the fundamental difference. Where you see yourself in the scheme of things versus where I see myself.
Thank you for the explanation. I agree it's a fundamentally different world view on the relationship between humans and animals.
Edit: I would also like to add that my world view does not make animals' interests equal to the interests of humans, but animal sentience is something we probably regard differently and in different measures of importance.0 -
I did say in many cases, not the majority, the minority. And this is just in my experience. I have met many 'vegans/veggies' who calim to be that they are not, (like with the gelatin). I also feel that there are some attitudes out there with the eating animals issue which do imply a certain superiority over meat eaters (but this goes both ways). Again, this is just in my experience, and most of this was at uni, where you get lots of people needing a cause, trying to find themselves or trying to change the world.0
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I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.
I am not trying to be facetious, but I would like to hear how that contemplative, self-reflective alternate conclusion might sound like. I have an easy time seeing my own conclusion, but I have a difficult time seeing an opposite conclusion about meat-eating which factors in animal welfare.
Dogs eat animals, I don't eat dogs.
Cats eat animals, I don't eat cats.
Birds eat animals, I don't eat birds.
Cattle doesn't eat animals - I wonder if that's why they taste so good. I eat beef.
Giraffe's don't eat meat - hmmm...
Humans eat animals, I don't eat humans.
Just thinking out loud.
LOL... and since when do animals have welfare?
No, I am not taking this topic seriously.
If you don't want to eat animals, fine... no big deal.
Why are you trying to make it a good/bad, right/wrong thing?
Do you go to the zoo?0 -
It's like religion
No one cares if a person is vegan or not, just quit cramming the lifestyle down other's throats.
This.
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I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.
I am not trying to be facetious, but I would like to hear how that contemplative, self-reflective alternate conclusion might sound like. I have an easy time seeing my own conclusion, but I have a difficult time seeing an opposite conclusion about meat-eating which factors in animal welfare.
Dogs eat animals, I don't eat dogs.
Cats eat animals, I don't eat cats.
Birds eat animals, I don't eat birds.
Cattle doesn't eat animals - I wonder if that's why they taste so good. I eat beef.
Giraffe's don't eat meat - hmmm...
Humans eat animals, I don't eat humans.
Just thinking out loud.
LOL... and since when do animals have welfare?
No, I am not taking this topic seriously.
If you don't want to eat animals, fine... no big deal.
Why are you trying to make it a good/bad, right/wrong thing?
Do you go to the zoo?
No, I don't.0 -
I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.
I am not trying to be facetious, but I would like to hear how that contemplative, self-reflective alternate conclusion might sound like. I have an easy time seeing my own conclusion, but I have a difficult time seeing an opposite conclusion about meat-eating which factors in animal welfare.
Dogs eat animals, I don't eat dogs.
Cats eat animals, I don't eat cats.
Birds eat animals, I don't eat birds.
Cattle doesn't eat animals - I wonder if that's why they taste so good. I eat beef.
Giraffe's don't eat meat - hmmm...
Humans eat animals, I don't eat humans.
Just thinking out loud.
LOL... and since when do animals have welfare?
No, I am not taking this topic seriously.
If you don't want to eat animals, fine... no big deal.
Why are you trying to make it a good/bad, right/wrong thing?
Do you go to the zoo?
The majority of the vegans I know are against zoos and safari parks so don't visit them.0 -
I would like to say that I have read a lot of your posts and you are a great example of a vegan who is outspoken and still polite and respectful to people that disagree with youMost people in my real life don't even know I'm a vegan. But, there are times it comes up and my mere existence seems to challenge some people, no matter how polite and accepting I try to be.
Then you are not being as polite and accepting as you think you are. Sometimes when we think that we are just stating our opinion in a non-confrontational way, we are really coming across as judgmental.
I have vegan friends. We have no problem being with each other. I don't try to get them to change, they don't try to get me to change.
It's not veganism that bothers people.
For example: I have met people for lunch who don't know I'm vegan. I try to make my veganism transparent by calling ahead to make ordering food simple and easy, and not revealing my veganism. When the food comes, it's plants and the person I'm with will sometimes ask 'Are you vegetarian?' When I answer truthfully, they often ask 'Why?' I used to answer truthfully, but now I just say 'This isn't a good time to discuss that.' Some people still persist, or get defensive. I truthfully don't like ruining people's dinners or highlighting differences. Other than lying, I really have no clue how I could be more polite and accepting in circumstances like this.0 -
I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.
I am not trying to be facetious, but I would like to hear how that contemplative, self-reflective alternate conclusion might sound like. I have an easy time seeing my own conclusion, but I have a difficult time seeing an opposite conclusion about meat-eating which factors in animal welfare.
Dogs eat animals, I don't eat dogs.
Cats eat animals, I don't eat cats.
Birds eat animals, I don't eat birds.
Cattle doesn't eat animals - I wonder if that's why they taste so good. I eat beef.
Giraffe's don't eat meat - hmmm...
Humans eat animals, I don't eat humans.
Just thinking out loud.
LOL... and since when do animals have welfare?
No, I am not taking this topic seriously.
If you don't want to eat animals, fine... no big deal.
Why are you trying to make it a good/bad, right/wrong thing?
Do you go to the zoo?
The majority of the vegans I know are against zoos and safari parks so don't visit them.
...and from the list, that is the only thing you all responded to... "the zoo".
***all with a sense of humor*** :flowerforyou:0 -
Because the welfare of my food is, necessarily, secondary (at best) to my own.
That's the fundamental difference. Where you see yourself in the scheme of things versus where I see myself.
Does this mean that you think people are vegan because they don't have adequate self-esteem? I'm really asking - this is the internet and sometimes it's hard to glean the real meaning of what's written.0 -
As a vegan of nearly 10 years...I see what she is saying. When one says the unpreachy, non-invasive phrase, "I'm vegan," it often seems to be taken by a meat-eater as an apparent invitation for criticism/analysis of their diet. I never mind answering genuine, respectful curiosity, but when it comes across (as it often does) as such: "WHAT? You can't possibly get enough protein. That's unhealthy. " (Unsolicited advice, thanks) or "What? Are you worried about the 'poor wittle anineemals???'" (And you apparently don't know and/or care about the ethics/sanitation/human health issues regarding the factory farming industry, so why do you care that I might have an opinion? Why antagonize me?), the line is blurred between what one has experienced and one has not. Until you have been the one to defend your vegan diet, you don't realize how condescending meat-eaters sound to vegans. Many times, It's as if our admission of our choice of non-animal foods is an unspoken negative judgement that you still eat meat-foods, when we have made no such indication. We have simply stated a fact about ourselves, not you.0
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I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.
I am not trying to be facetious, but I would like to hear how that contemplative, self-reflective alternate conclusion might sound like. I have an easy time seeing my own conclusion, but I have a difficult time seeing an opposite conclusion about meat-eating which factors in animal welfare.
Dogs eat animals, I don't eat dogs.
Cats eat animals, I don't eat cats.
Birds eat animals, I don't eat birds.
Cattle doesn't eat animals - I wonder if that's why they taste so good. I eat beef.
Giraffe's don't eat meat - hmmm...
Humans eat animals, I don't eat humans.
Just thinking out loud.
LOL... and since when do animals have welfare?
No, I am not taking this topic seriously.
If you don't want to eat animals, fine... no big deal.
Why are you trying to make it a good/bad, right/wrong thing?
Do you go to the zoo?
The majority of the vegans I know are against zoos and safari parks so don't visit them.
...and from the list, that is the only thing you all responded to... "the zoo".
***all with a sense of humor*** :flowerforyou:
I answered on that final point, too, mainly because I had a hard time understanding your point. You said you weren't taking this subject seriously, so that would require me to figure out when you were being serious, and when you weren't. It's too much like math--too hard!0 -
I would like to say that I have read a lot of your posts and you are a great example of a vegan who is outspoken and still polite and respectful to people that disagree with youMost people in my real life don't even know I'm a vegan. But, there are times it comes up and my mere existence seems to challenge some people, no matter how polite and accepting I try to be.
Then you are not being as polite and accepting as you think you are. Sometimes when we think that we are just stating our opinion in a non-confrontational way, we are really coming across as judgmental.
I have vegan friends. We have no problem being with each other. I don't try to get them to change, they don't try to get me to change.
It's not veganism that bothers people.
For example: I have met people for lunch who don't know I'm vegan. I try to make my veganism transparent by calling ahead to make ordering food simple and easy, and not revealing my veganism. When the food comes, it's plants and the person I'm with will sometimes ask 'Are you vegetarian?' When I answer truthfully, they often ask 'Why?' I used to answer truthfully, but now I just say 'This isn't a good time to discuss that.' Some people still persist, or get defensive. I truthfully don't like ruining people's dinners or highlighting differences. Other than lying, I really have no clue how I could be more polite and accepting in circumstances like this.
Thank you. I do *try* and I appreciate the kind words.0 -
Honestly, I think people are made UNCOMFORTABLE on a very deep level by people who choose to eat ethically. It's just, ya know, right there in your face, "I don't gobble down cheeseburgers, because I realize that it is unfair to the earth and unfair to living creatures to sacrifice their well=being for my own whims."
So, even if the vegan or veggie in question ISN'T one of those obnoxious "MY WAY OR NO WAY AT ALL, I AM BETTER THAN YOU AND YOU ARE UNEDUCATED ABOUT EATING" types that taint the whole image for all other compassionate eaters, those who choose to keep eating meat are often made to feel as though they have to justify their eating habits in the face of compassionate eating.
Or at least that's how I always felt before I went vegetarian three years ago.
This post is an example of why vegans provoke me. And I am talking about vegans I encounter in all walks of life - this is the superior high and mighty stuff that comes out of their mouths. And if they restrain from saying it until you ask why they don't want an extra hard boiled egg you have in your lunch when they didn't have time to get lunch, then it comes out as that silent judgement that they really believe that they are more educated, compassionate, and righteous than you for just choosing that way of life. That's the difference of "omnivores", we just eat and let each other eat, - our choice of what to eat may be an educated choice, but we don't present to others as if we are superior than they.
This also comes from vegetarians too - but vegans even more so, but I have rarely in my life met a vegetarian or vegan who didn't want to go on and on about why it was better or (they try not to say that) - why they made the choice they did. I don't care.0 -
I don't think vegans think they are better. But, I think there is a mental process they go through to make their decisions that I don't think 99% of the rest of America consider at all. Most people just do what they were taught without question. So, that makes it kind of weird for a vegan because they know they are talking to someone that has not questioned their values or made choices in a thoughful and more purposeful way.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that one can very easily engage in contemplative self-reflection about this issue - a process which you seem to describe as necessarily leading to veganism - yet instead reach the perfectly reasonable opposite conclusion that eating meat and using animal products is acceptable. That kind of blanket assumption that a non-vegan must be that way because they haven't thought about it as "deeply" as you is exactly the kind of thing that turns people off, and can bring out the venom from even the most level-headed of meat-eaters.
I am not trying to be facetious, but I would like to hear how that contemplative, self-reflective alternate conclusion might sound like. I have an easy time seeing my own conclusion, but I have a difficult time seeing an opposite conclusion about meat-eating which factors in animal welfare.
This is the first time I've commented on one of these "food fight" threads, so let me know if I'm doing it wrong...
This is something I've thought about a lot. It hasn't led me to be a vegan. I like to know where my food comes from, so I tend to buy from local, humane farms. I think that how we treat animals is very important. Animals have always been a big part of human life. Those who believe in animal rights would like that to not be the case. Ideally, I would like to raise my own animals and eat them at the appropriate and natural times. I also like to wear wool and leather. Both can be humanely produced. Conventional cotton can be pretty bad for the environment. Hemp is hard to find. A lot of synthetic materials are made from fossil fuels.
Believing in animal welfare isn't actually incompatible with eating meat. Overpopulation of prey species can lead to starvation. That makes hunting humane. It's the belief in "animal rights" that is incompatible with eating meat. If we really believed in animal rights, we would have to get rid of all domesticated animals. We would literally have to eliminate them. Some of them (like cats) would likely thrive on their own, but at what damage to local ecosystems? Turning them loose wouldn't be totally ethical, so we have to kill them all right? Believing in "animal rights" is incompatible with believing in animal welfare. My belief in animal welfare leads me to want to see them cared for and protected and, yes, sometimes eaten.0 -
As a vegan of nearly 10 years...I see what she is saying. When one says the unpreachy, non-invasive phrase, "I'm vegan," it often seems to be taken by a meat-eater as an apparent invitation for criticism/analysis of their diet. I never mind answering genuine, respectful curiosity, but when it comes across (as it often does) as such: "WHAT? You can't possibly get enough protein. That's unhealthy. " (Unsolicited advice, thanks) or "What? Are you worried about the 'poor wittle anineemals???'" (And you apparently don't know and/or care about the ethics/sanitation/human health issues regarding the factory farming industry, so why do you care that I might have an opinion? Why antagonize me?), the line is blurred between what one has experienced and one has not. Until you have been the one to defend your vegan diet, you don't realize how condescending meat-eaters sound to vegans. Many times, It's as if our admission of our choice of non-animal foods is an unspoken negative judgement that you still eat meat-foods, when we have made no such indication. We have simply stated a fact about ourselves, not you.
I'm non-mainstream in a few ways, and my chosen differences are frequently construed as tacit criticisms.
For instance, I home-schooled my kids (for reasons which will remain private here). But frequently, when I would say that I was a home-school parent, the first thing people would say to me was 'What's wrong with public schools?' It baffled me then, and it baffles me now. That's leading with defensiveness.0 -
Honestly, I think people are made UNCOMFORTABLE on a very deep level by people who choose to eat ethically. It's just, ya know, right there in your face, "I don't gobble down cheeseburgers, because I realize that it is unfair to the earth and unfair to living creatures to sacrifice their well=being for my own whims."
So, even if the vegan or veggie in question ISN'T one of those obnoxious "MY WAY OR NO WAY AT ALL, I AM BETTER THAN YOU AND YOU ARE UNEDUCATED ABOUT EATING" types that taint the whole image for all other compassionate eaters, those who choose to keep eating meat are often made to feel as though they have to justify their eating habits in the face of compassionate eating.
Or at least that's how I always felt before I went vegetarian three years ago.
This post is an example of why vegans provoke me. And I am talking about vegans I encounter in all walks of life - this is the superior high and mighty stuff that comes out of their mouths. And if they restrain from saying it until you ask why they don't want an extra hard boiled egg you have in your lunch when they didn't have time to get lunch, then it comes out as that silent judgement that they really believe that they are more educated, compassionate, and righteous than you for just choosing that way of life. That's the difference of "omnivores", we just eat and let each other eat, - our choice of what to eat may be an educated choice, but we don't present to others as if we are superior than they.
This also comes from vegetarians too - but vegans even more so, but I have rarely in my life met a vegetarian or vegan who didn't want to go on and on about why it was better or (they try not to say that) - why they made the choice they did. I don't care.
"And if they restrain from saying it until you ask why they don't want an extra hard boiled egg you have in your lunch when they didn't have time to get lunch, then it comes out as that silent judgement that they really believe that they are more educated, compassionate, and righteous than you for just choosing that way of life."
Silent judgement? I think that's projection on your part.0
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